Hard Light Productions Forums
Announcements => Announcements => Topic started by: Iain Baker on April 29, 2019, 08:55:06 am
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An enlightening read, highly recommended. And I'm not saying that just because I wrote some of it :p
Full disclosure - I didn't write the Destiny-centric questions. Since I don't own a PS4 or XBox One I have never played it, so my knowledge of it is essentially zero. My colleagues at CD wrote those since one of the team is a big Destiny fan.
Enjoy :-)
http://coin-drop.com/diversity-in-video-games-a-conversation-with-destiny-writer-seth-dickinson/ (http://coin-drop.com/diversity-in-video-games-a-conversation-with-destiny-writer-seth-dickinson/)
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"that's an inane question"
oooooh fiery!
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"that's an inane question"
oooooh fiery!
Indeed. Glad I didn't write that one :lol:
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I could be wrong here, I've been on HLP since it was part of 3dactionplanet / gamespy, but I thought I'd seen Batoot-toot prior to 2009.
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"that's an inane question"
oooooh fiery!
That's not how I would describe it...
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"that's an inane question"
And that is an inane - not to mention incredibly rude - way to respond to a question.
Glad I didn't write that one
And the interviewer deserved to be spoken to that way?
Yes, this review was enlightening. I see now why BP is the way it is.
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"that's an inane question"
And that is an inane - not to mention incredibly rude - way to respond to a question.
There’s an entire paragraph full of reasoning right there! And a whole interview behind it!
You didn’t read any of that, though.
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"that's an inane question"
And that is an inane - not to mention incredibly rude - way to respond to a question.
The question was really, really bad though. Like, "completely ignorant of the source material" bad. Or "more interested in making a stupid ~game politics~ point than in getting a real answer" bad.
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I could be wrong here, I've been on HLP since it was part of 3dactionplanet / gamespy, but I thought I'd seen Batoot-toot prior to 2009.
This one? https://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=64196.0
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The question was really, really bad though. Like, "completely ignorant of the source material" bad. Or "more interested in making a stupid ~game politics~ point than in getting a real answer" bad.
Bad questions to need bad answers. Granted Battuta has never been a paragon of grace* but even for him that was a low point.
*Neither am I.
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It is absolutely the most telling thing in the world when nerds obsess over some slight hint of ‘meanness’ in a response rather than taking issue with the glaring, gut-bustingly bad line of thought that provoked it.
In your hurry to get mad about the word ‘inane’, an intellectual judgment about a question which implies certain values and beliefs, did you stop to read the actual question and answer? Do you have some substantive disagreement with the thoughts being exchanged?
You’re lucky I didn’t go with my first draft, which was “hey, **** you”
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It is absolutely the most telling thing in the world when nerds obsess over some slight hint of ‘meanness’ in a response rather than taking issue with the glaring, gut-bustingly bad line of thought that provoked it.
Then deconstruct the question. Make the bad from in the question an issue of the response ala "The better question to ask is...".
You’re lucky I didn’t go with my first draft, which was “hey, **** you”
:banghead:
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Like I am wildly curious why you want to argue that the question “Did you create this character as a diversity checkbox, because a black woman with knowledge and sorcerous power seems unbelievable to me” should not be challenged. Do you feel that belief deserves my implicit confirmation and support? Why? What is the role of an interviewee when the interviewer asks a misinformed or leading question?
You seem to be arguing that the interviewer is sacrosanct and can’t be corrected.
It is absolutely the most telling thing in the world when nerds obsess over some slight hint of ‘meanness’ in a response rather than taking issue with the glaring, gut-bustingly bad line of thought that provoked it.
Then deconstruct the question. Make the bad from in the question an issue of the response ala "The better question to ask is...".
You’re lucky I didn’t go with my first draft, which was “hey, **** you”
:banghead:
How does my response not do this? By comparing Ikora’s narrative role to two other peer characters, I show that the question is misguided.
But you didn’t read that, did you? You just jumped on a line someone else quoted. If you want to say ‘my bad, I should have read the context’ then no hard feelings.
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Yes, this review was enlightening. I see now why BP is the way it is.
Glad you enjoyed. It’s definitely something I’m proud of, and it’s been great to see the whole team’s hard work find such an audience.
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Orpheus, can you actually make a point more substantial than "I think Battuta was rude", or is that all there is? Because if that's the case, if all you want to do is get on Battman's case over ~not being a paragon of grace~, I think it would be best if you left this particular tangent of the discussion.
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I am curious to hear more, I guess. Orpheus has always seemed critical and thoughtful, so I just don’t get where he’s coming from here.
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I might be a bit on the edge right now (release on Wendsday) ... I will come back to it later...
You seem to be arguing that the interviewer is sacrosanct and can’t be corrected.
[...]
I do not. But the interviewer is only a conduit, not the origin of the question.
For that question to have existed, the opinion it represents must have existed elsehwere already - I don't think I have to esspecially point out where. In this case esspecially since there is a whole blurb about it in article - if that was not part of interview situation, that I will happly retract (part of) my point.
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Yes, the opinion that a black woman with powerful abilities can only exist in a story as an excuse to check a box certainly exists elsewhere. You can see it all over Twitter (especially in the actresses who’ve been driven off social media). You can see it in videos YouTube recommends. You can see it in this thread with people who think that BP is some kind of insidious political programming. That is absolutely the inanity I’m reacting to.
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I do not. But the interviewer is only a conduit, not the origin of the question.
That highly depends on the interviewer. Some interviewers have strong opinions, and the interviews they produce are a dialogue between them and their subjects; others try to keep their own personality out of the interview as much as possible to make the subject of the interview shine.
A question like the one asked here, full of prejudice and bias, firmly belongs in the first category; when you ask a question like that (or others like it, see for example the first question in the interview!), you as an interviewer are no longer merely a "conduit" for the other person, you are engaging in a dialogue.
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I do not. But the interviewer is only a conduit, not the origin of the question.
That highly depends on the interviewer. Some interviewers have strong opinions, and the interviews they produce are a dialogue between them and their subjects; others try to keep their own personality out of the interview as much as possible to make the subject of the interview shine.
A question like the one asked here, full of prejudice and bias, firmly belongs in the first category; when you ask a question like that (or others like it, see for example the first question in the interview!), you as an interviewer are no longer merely a "conduit" for the other person, you are engaging in a dialogue.
FYI I didn't write the first question either.
If memory serves - we drafted the questions around Christmas(ish) so I can't be 100% sure - I wrote questions 2, 3, 4, 7, 8, 9 and 10. Oh and the last "What are you working on..." question. If any of those questions were stupid then I take full responsibility. I cannot take responsibility for the others as I didn't write them and I don't have editorial control over Coin-Drop since it isn't my site.
My site, which I do have complete control over is https://www.nomadsreviews.co.uk/ (https://www.nomadsreviews.co.uk/) but I have been a little neglectful of that one over the last few months. I will probably continue to use Nomad's Reviews for non-video game stuff, such as reviews of books, audiobooks and audio-dramas, which are other passions of mine. :)
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Somehow you've got the magic ability to write articles that make every thread go OT with a single word. :D
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Somehow you've got the magic ability to write articles that make every thread go OT with a single word. :D
I know. :sigh: The thing is it's never intentional. If I was an edgy $hitlord I would be proud of the reaction, but since I'm not one I can't help but think everyone needs to chill out a bit. Ah well, such is life :)
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People grabbed onto Luis' quote and then couldn't back down once they'd leapt to conclusions. Or they were mad going in and wanted something to latch onto to express their political disagreement in a coded way. It's not your fault.
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I could be wrong here, I've been on HLP since it was part of 3dactionplanet / gamespy, but I thought I'd seen Batoot-toot prior to 2009.
This one? https://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=64196.0
Nah, I just inferred from the opening paragraph that General B had only been on here since 2009, but I've just looked and he was here 3 years prior... At least in his current form :nod:
Talking of which, my original profile (changed due to my work on the original Wing commander Mod with Tolwyn) can be found here https://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?action=profile;u=224 and as shows, I was the 224th person to register.
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Atleast you didn't had your username changed by admin, so people would believe you had, like, 3 split personalities. :D
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I don't recall that happening to anyone, on topic though, this interview made me aware of Exordia and I am intrigued (as appears to be half the internet). I looked at https://www.sethdickinson.com/ for some info but it's not been updated for a wee while......
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I don't recall that happening to anyone, on topic though, this interview made me aware of Exordia and I am intrigued (as appears to be half the internet). I looked at https://www.sethdickinson.com/ for some info but it's not been updated for a wee while......
This is worth a look if you haven't seen it. https://livestream.com/thecommons/NYRSF-180703-Mack-Dickinson/videos/177222716 (https://livestream.com/thecommons/NYRSF-180703-Mack-Dickinson/videos/177222716) our very own Gen Bat. reading from Exordia :-) I listened for a while then stopped when I though "Yup, going to read that" to avoid spoilers :-)
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And now a less controversial post :p http://coin-drop.com/the-paupers-guide-to-gaming-on-a-budget/ (http://coin-drop.com/the-paupers-guide-to-gaming-on-a-budget/)
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this thread has missed out on the real story which is battuta's extremely suspicious resemblance to this well-known college ball player:
(https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/platinumgames/images/7/72/Steven.png/revision/latest?cb=20140514021544)
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I really wish you hadn’t posted this on the Destiny subreddit, Iain. I was willing to answer those questions as a coda to the BP stuff, but advertising this as an interview about Destiny could really piss Bungie off. I make most of my money from them so this could be a pretty major blow if it keeps me from getting work.
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Did Iain posted it there against your will or wasn't that clarified before the interview?
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I really wish you hadn’t posted this on the Destiny subreddit, Iain. I was willing to answer those questions as a coda to the BP stuff, but advertising this as an interview about Destiny could really piss Bungie off. I make most of my money from them so this could be a pretty major blow if it keeps me from getting work.
My apologies, I didn't realise it could cause a problem. Would you like me to delete the r/destiny post?
Bare in mind that Coin-Drop isn't a private website, so it was/is perfectly possible that someone at Bungie will see it anyway. If this was going to be a problem you could have said so earlier - I'm easily contactable on here after all. You could have said "Iain, I'm happy to answer the blue planet stuff, but I would rather not answer the Bungie stuff as I may not be at liberty to discuss it."
I did send you the interview questions months ago and I did say that if you wanted to make any changes or omissions I was perfectly happy to do so, you just had to say the word. You didn't say anything so I had no reason to suspect there would be a problem. You answered all the questions so I assumed there was no problem.
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If you can, I think that'd be best (the Reddit post, not the interview). It's probably fine but better safe than sorry.
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If you can, I think that'd be best (the Reddit post, not the interview). It's probably fine but better safe than sorry.
Done. Clearer communications in advance next time methinks and we won't have problems like this again.
This applies to everyone at HLP BTW if I am to continue to serve as Social Media Manager. I need clear info in advance.
If submit a draft of something and ask for feedback and fact checking I need it before it goes live not after. For example, having to re-do the Blue Planet trilogy articles because I got the acts system wrong was humiliating. I had specifically asked for fact checking in advance which would have prevented this but no one bothered.
Its not like I am getting paid for this, and I have today been offered a role as SMM somewhere else. If I don't start getting some cooperation here I will take my time and effort elsewhere.
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Bare in mind that Coin-Drop isn't a private website, so it was/is perfectly possible that someone at Bungie will see it anyway. If this was going to be a problem you could have said so earlier - I'm easily contactable on here after all. You could have said "Iain, I'm happy to answer the blue planet stuff, but I would rather not answer the Bungie stuff as I may not be at liberty to discuss it."
I did send you the interview questions months ago and I did say that if you wanted to make any changes or omissions I was perfectly happy to do so, you just had to say the word. You didn't say anything so I had no reason to suspect there would be a problem. You answered all the questions so I assumed there was no problem.
I was fine with the information you gave me: an interview about diversity in games focused mostly on Blue Planet, with some Destiny questions I dodged.
You did not give me any heads up about then posting the interview to the Destiny subreddit and advertising it as insight into a Destiny writer's process writing material for Destiny. That's a pretty major rebranding, and moves it from "Seth talking about his own work" to "Seth talking about Destiny" in Bungie's eyes.
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C'mon, that's how journalism works. ;)
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People grabbed onto Luis' quote and then couldn't back down once they'd leapt to conclusions. Or they were mad going in and wanted something to latch onto to express their political disagreement in a coded way. It's not your fault.
Indeed I never thought it would degrade the thread like this! I thought it was funny in its aggressiveness that's all!
And yeah I agree it was a silly interview in general, with almost every question in need of reframing and correction... all I got from it was a curious story about a tragic sci fi classic and how silly questions can annoy the hell out of Seth :D
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I have to agree with Luis here. I found almost all of the questions were either constructing a false dichotomy or were extremely reductive. The whole interview seemed to be biased toward a particular viewpoint and trying to force a particular line of discussion to advance a point, rather than providing a platform for Battuta to expound on his views on his terms. Really disappointing.
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C'mon, that's how journalism works. ;)
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C'mon, that's how journalism works. ;)
Either contribute something meaningful or **** off.
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C'mon, that's how journalism works. ;)
Either contribute something meaningful or **** off.
Like, what do you expect? I don't read interviews/articles too often for the reasons you named and it's part of this buisness; something that's probably being expected of you.
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You don't have a very good idea of how journalism works.
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Indeed I don't have a detailed insight into journalism; I just happen to run into the results from time to time.
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You seem to be conflating bias (which is inherent to everything involving humans) with pushing an agenda. Bias is passive and unconsciously injected into everything we do. An agenda is a conscious choice. I can tolerate bias, and even skilled writers can fall prey to it (although I should hope they try to minimize its impact on the reporting) but deliberately, consciously pushing an agenda is where I run into problems. That's what opinion pieces are for. Leave it out of interviews.
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Well i can’t possibly make this thread worse so here’s my attempt at a hardball question:
Was Benjanun Sriduangkaew able to perpetrate her campaign of abuse due to a systematic tendency of social justice advocates to excuse bullying and cruelty when done in the name of diversity by people with ‘unprivileged’ identities? Would her behaviour have continued to be accepted and tolerated had she not ultimately been proven to target other minorities and had instead truly reserved her rape and death threats for straight white males?
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Finally got some time to read the interview ! (The rest of the thread will have to wait, though)
The fact that a lot of the questions are oriented towards diversity is quite telling indeed...
Diversity is realism. I don’t think of it as ‘adding diversity’, I think of it as removing blinders.
[...]
As a rule, history was more diverse and complicated than the caricatures we remember.
That about sums up a lot of the issues that I have with standard "cis-white men club" stories and mindsets. The world is so much richer than most people realise. And when you point out how improbable this all is, it's usually met with a shrug and a "does it really matter?", missing the point altogether. Hell, it often takes me a while to notice that kind of thing myself. Case in point :
[In] War in Heaven you play as a dark-skinned lesbian of African descent
This is something that flew completely over my head, my mental picture of Laporte had always been of a standard young white girl (with dark hair).
Another nugget that stood out for me:
I know I have to make a conscious effort to do this, because left in my own comfort zone I’d just read technothrillers, space opera, and nonfiction about horrible diseases.
For some reason, I really like that last bit :P
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Since I can't really respond with something really constructive or something along the lines, I'll just say: thank you for sharing your insight on the matters, Battuta. This interview should definitely serve as a guideline and food for thought for young aspiring writers around the place (it definitely gave me some inspiration even though I'm not a writer of any kind).
Also, thank you for the opportunity to read this interview, Iain. It's definitely cool to see HLP get some movement in the social media section.
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This is something that flew completely over my head, my mental picture of Laporte had always been of a standard young white girl (with dark hair).
Same, but blond.
In our defense, I don't think (or at least, I don't remember) BP actually giving a ingame description of what Laporte looks like(?).
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The closest to a physical description of her is something like "raven like", iirc, which is very much open to interpretation (and probably relates more to her physicality rather than physique)
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Yeah it’s quite ambiguous, which tends to let people fill in their cultural defaults (which are not, usually, consciously determined). She’s described as shorter than Simms and darker, in a corvine sort of way.
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I also imagine her as shorter and heavier just because those are helpful traits for a combat pilot but honestly I haven’t pinned anything down beyond that.
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I also imagine her as shorter and heavier just because those are helpful traits for a combat pilot but honestly I haven’t pinned anything down beyond that.
Didn't you said once that physical aspects are more or less irrelevant for a fighter pilot?
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So, I had my rest ... time to adress what happened on Monday.
*deep breaths*
Firstly, an apology is warranted.
I failed to do my due dilligence on Monday to engage with the interview on its own terms; a number of lateral moves would have been required and I did none of those. As a result I let the dissonance between my opinions and the opinions expressed in the answers get the better of me and results are as they are.
I will now try to offer an explaination to what the cause of said dissonance is.
I apologize for the offence given.
As for the explaination, let's start with a fundamental point - I have little regard for Realism as stylistic choice for which Battuta expressed his perferrence.
I actually tried to find if I had given my speech on the subject on HLP before, but no results. I hope the tl;dr suffices: In essence, while Realism frequently produces works of great quality, I find there is a "mutness" about works of Realism. "Muteness" in this context is not the same as expressionless or empty, it is more the absence of points to connect beyond the surface level.
As such reading his answers in details requires a lot more mental legwork for me, as I tend to be in a quasi-Idealistic position (and to try to be subversive tends to bring a smile to my face :D ).
Due to that position it kinda came tumbling down following this:
CD: Following on from this, some of your characters undergo a major change during their story arcs. For example, Laporte, the protagonist in War in Heaven, starts off as a young, naïve and possibly schizophrenic rookie pilot. She then matures into a hardened fighter ace, then on to a state sponsored spec-ops terrorist. Eventually, she becomes a pivotal element in the war, and mankind’s survival as a species, when it is revealed that her presumed schizophrenia is in fact communications with post-human intelligences. How did you ‘get into the head’ of such a character, and what techniques did you use to avoid Laporte falling into the clichéd ‘Mary Sue’ or ‘The Chosen One’ tropes.
I don’t think there is any real value in thinking about ‘tropes’. They’re lists of things that often happen in stories. What matters is understanding why and how they’re used.
Laporte is a person raised in a culture of sanctity and compassion who discovers, and must come to terms with, her own talent for killing. She’s been activated as a weapon or agent by an alien power using humanity in a proxy war. She has to decide who she’s going to become under these circumstances. I think about these things. I don’t think about tropes.
Now going from what he describes, I read a disinterest in the normative side of narration here, beyond the inherit "represent what is". Coming from an idealistic position that side however is crictially important.
From an idealistic position you already picked your cause and you chose to champion it.
You are engaged in an act of communication, and thus have to take the reader by the hand and lead them into the logic inherit to the story. "Tropes" are points of familiarity, the starting proposition with which you gain the trust of your audience.
Of course, the first steps don't make the dance. :D
I don't want to propose some sort of hierarchy here. I don't want to declare that the way I engage with writing is inherently better.
There are differences in execution and intend here, that goes all the way down to the axioms. However as "violent" as my infiltered reaction may be, there is no need actually compete on merits of any of these points.
As to why I found Battuta's reactions ... "poor" is related to what I just called "the normative side of narration".
The premise of the Destiny questions, dogwhistles as they are, is that all narration is normative, which is not an odd proposition considering how a lot of narrative traditions tend to focus on morality tales, i.e. stories that also serve to transmit the values of a society.
However the premise tends to fail the test of reversing its logic - the importance of morality tales does not make all narration normative.
Add a garnish and serve :D
Now there are more aspects to responding to that kind of dogwhistle but they tend to be non-universal; hegemonies, to which such dogwhistles are supposed to draw defenders, tend to be quite specific systems - so I will refrain from further, more uniformed propositions.
re: Laporte appearance
For some reason I imagined her to be of mixed-african descent, but I can't eactly point to the why ... maybe a deduction from her adopted(?) uncle being from Johannesburg?
As to physical traits:
Military recruitment today tends to focus on smaller hights for pilots and drivers - in no small part because it easier to adjust a vehicle to smaller person than a larger one.
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@Nightmare:
Perhaps since Martians experienced lower gravity throughout their lives than Earthers, they became a tad higher and slimmer than their ancestors, but also had less dense bones and muscles which limits their capability of coping with G-forces?
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I have no idea what most of that means but none of it is about the inanity or lack thereof of that one question AFAICT. But I appreciate your thoughtful reply, genuinely.
When it comes to ‘diversity’ or lack there of, any departure from realism should be purposeful. Most such departures aren’t - they’re just filling casts with more white guys than you’d expect from random chance.
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@Nightmare:
Perhaps since Martians experienced lower gravity throughout their lives than Earthers, they became a tad higher and slimmer than their ancestors, but also had less dense bones and muscles which limits their capability of coping with G-forces?
That's an interesting idea. Indeed this was to happen if mankind would stay on Mars for longer, but I'm not sure if the colonisation would be long enough in FS (or in this case BP) for such effects to occur as the selection pressure from low-g to high-g is much higher than vice-versa. Also I'd presume such effects could be compensated by technology for a prolonged time at this point, not to mention further migration from Earth.
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none of it is about the inanity or lack thereof of that one question AFAICT.
PM incoming.
When it comes to ‘diversity’ or lack there of, any departure from realism should be purposeful. Most such departures aren’t - they’re just filling casts with more white guys than you’d expect from random chance.
There is just the tiny problem about those of us who are not blessed with a treasure trove of primary sources.
While the answer is, of course, to knuckle down and do your research from other sources, the logistics of it aren't always as easy.