[Akalabeth Angel]

IMDB:
A New Hope: 8.7/10
Empire Strikes Back: 8.8/10

I can use the internet to a ****ty "source" too.  Unlike your hastily scrabbled rebuttal, however, I can also get a good one too.

Academy Awards and their compatriots are a ****ty source for defining critical reception?  Hahaha. Seeya later Alice.

That ESB is the best, fine. That ANH > ROTJ is ridiculous. ANH has one or two memorable quotes, tops. The Luke - Vader confrontation at the end is just a movie in itself.

I personally think ROTJ was the best of them, but I'm a sucker for the fighter combat. I'm just reporting what I've seen.

I prefer Return of the Jedi too.
It doesn't mean I think it's a better movie.

[Scotty]

It always amuses me when I see people who still have the word filter on.  Considering we've had such awful Oscar awards as Shakespeare in Love taking Best Picture from Saving Private Ryan, Dances With Wolves beating Goodfellas.  Citizen Kane didn't win Best Picture.  It got beat by a movie I'd be willing to bet you've never even heard of in How Green Was My Valentine (because I sure as **** had never heard of it).  Argo beat Zero Dark Thirty.

The Academy Awards, despite being hailed as the most prestigious, are by no means perfect (or even close, some years).

[Akalabeth Angel]

The Academy Awards, despite being hailed as the most prestigious, are by no means perfect (or even close, some years).

Doesn't matter, they're the defining representation of critical reception until you produce something better (Also you're ignoring the numerous awards and nominated bestowed by other organizations).

And no, quoting a review written 17 years after Empire's release by a critic who gave 3 1/2 stars (out of 4) to the Phantom Menace and allegedly ranked Empire as #7 of the best films of 1980 doesn't qualify as "something better" than numerous organizations, both the Academy and others, which saw fit to give Star Wars (1977) more awards and nominations than Empire.

Also it's interesting to note a defining distinction between your examples and Empire.  All of those losers you mention were at least nominated. Empire wasn't even that.

[Scotty]

The Academy Awards, despite being hailed as the most prestigious, are by no means perfect (or even close, some years).

Doesn't matter, they're the defining representation of critical reception until you produce something better (Also you're ignoring the numerous awards and nominated bestowed by other organizations).

And no, quoting a review written 17 years after Empire's release by a critic who gave 3 1/2 stars (out of 4) to the Phantom Menace and allegedly ranked Empire as #7 of the best films of 1980 doesn't qualify as "something better" than numerous organizations, both the Academy and others, which saw fit to give Star Wars (1977) more awards and nominations than Empire.

Aha, the vaunted "I got here first" defense.  Using your logic, How Green Is My Valentine is one of the greatest movies of all time.  If not the greatest, since it won Best Picture and beat out Citizen Kane in the process.

The Oscars are not immune to politics.  Rocky won Best Picture instead of A New Hope.  Is it a better movie?  Were the movies in 1980 better than the movies in 1977?  Probably!

In the meantime, it would behoove you to educate yourself on who Roger Ebert is and his contributions to cinema.

[MP-Ryan]

The Academy Awards are hilariously political and no one takes them as a serious source for critical reception of a film in any year moderately removed that which it was given.  They're often a useful barometer for whether a film that might not be otherwise popular may be worth seeing; the further removed from the year of the award we are, the less relevant it is, for the reason of all the examples Scotty gave.  (The 1999 and 2002 Best Picture's are also pretty good examples.)

[Scotty]

The Academy Awards are hilariously political and no one takes them as a serious source for critical reception of a film in any year moderately removed that which it was given.  They're often a useful barometer for whether a film that might not be otherwise popular may be worth seeing; the further removed from the year of the award we are, the less relevant it is, for the reason of all the examples Scotty gave.  (The 1999 and 2002 Best Picture's are also pretty good examples.)

but mp-ryan quote your sources and furthermore

[Akalabeth Angel]

The Academy Awards, despite being hailed as the most prestigious, are by no means perfect (or even close, some years).

Doesn't matter, they're the defining representation of critical reception until you produce something better (Also you're ignoring the numerous awards and nominated bestowed by other organizations).

And no, quoting a review written 17 years after Empire's release by a critic who gave 3 1/2 stars (out of 4) to the Phantom Menace and allegedly ranked Empire as #7 of the best films of 1980 doesn't qualify as "something better" than numerous organizations, both the Academy and others, which saw fit to give Star Wars (1977) more awards and nominations than Empire.

Aha, the vaunted "I got here first" defense.  Using your logic, How Green Is My Valentine is one of the greatest movies of all time.  If not the greatest, since it won Best Picture and beat out Citizen Kane in the process.

The Oscars are not immune to politics.  Rocky won Best Picture instead of A New Hope.  Is it a better movie?  Were the movies in 1980 better than the movies in 1977?  Probably!

Annie Hall won best picture you goofball.
A woody allen movie, one of the most celebrated and famous writer-directors in hollywood.

You can't even google **** right.

[MP-Ryan]

Some other films never even nominated for Best Picture in the year they came out:

Spartacus
2001: A Space Odyssey
Blade Runner
The Usual Suspects
Toy Story
The Matrix
Cold Mountain

TESB is in good company, methinks.

Whether you agree with the "Should Have Won" or not, this list is really useful:  http://www.filmsite.org/bestpics3.html

[Scotty]

The Academy Awards, despite being hailed as the most prestigious, are by no means perfect (or even close, some years).

Doesn't matter, they're the defining representation of critical reception until you produce something better (Also you're ignoring the numerous awards and nominated bestowed by other organizations).

And no, quoting a review written 17 years after Empire's release by a critic who gave 3 1/2 stars (out of 4) to the Phantom Menace and allegedly ranked Empire as #7 of the best films of 1980 doesn't qualify as "something better" than numerous organizations, both the Academy and others, which saw fit to give Star Wars (1977) more awards and nominations than Empire.

Aha, the vaunted "I got here first" defense.  Using your logic, How Green Is My Valentine is one of the greatest movies of all time.  If not the greatest, since it won Best Picture and beat out Citizen Kane in the process.

The Oscars are not immune to politics.  Rocky won Best Picture instead of A New Hope.  Is it a better movie?  Were the movies in 1980 better than the movies in 1977?  Probably!

Annie Hall won best picture you goofball.
A woody allen movie, one of the most celebrated and famous writer-directors in hollywood.

You can't even google **** right.

I blame Google for this one.

In my capacity as a mod, watch the ad homs.

[Akalabeth Angel]

The Academy Awards, despite being hailed as the most prestigious, are by no means perfect (or even close, some years).

Doesn't matter, they're the defining representation of critical reception until you produce something better (Also you're ignoring the numerous awards and nominated bestowed by other organizations).

And no, quoting a review written 17 years after Empire's release by a critic who gave 3 1/2 stars (out of 4) to the Phantom Menace and allegedly ranked Empire as #7 of the best films of 1980 doesn't qualify as "something better" than numerous organizations, both the Academy and others, which saw fit to give Star Wars (1977) more awards and nominations than Empire.

Aha, the vaunted "I got here first" defense.  Using your logic, How Green Is My Valentine is one of the greatest movies of all time.  If not the greatest, since it won Best Picture and beat out Citizen Kane in the process.

The Oscars are not immune to politics.  Rocky won Best Picture instead of A New Hope.  Is it a better movie?  Were the movies in 1980 better than the movies in 1977?  Probably!

Annie Hall won best picture you goofball.
A woody allen movie, one of the most celebrated and famous writer-directors in hollywood.

You can't even google **** right.

I blame Google for this one.

In my capacity as a mod, watch the ad homs.

In my capacity as a user, you shouldn't be moderating your own discussions.

[Scotty]

Your post is noted.  Now watch the ad homs.

[deathfun]

Doesn't matter, they're the defining representation of critical reception

Course, critics are humans, and as such, anything they say about a movie is ultimately still subjective

Sure, their opinion might be valued more than someone who doesn't do it for a living (course, value once again depends on another person valuing their opinion, which is subjective etc etc), but it's still ultimately their opinion, and thus subjective

[Akalabeth Angel]

The Oscars are not immune to politics.  Rocky won Best Picture instead of A New Hope.  Is it a better movie?  Were the movies in 1980 better than the movies in 1977?  Probably!

In the meantime, it would behoove you to educate yourself on who Roger Ebert is and his contributions to cinema.

Incidentally. If you want to quote Roger Ebert and say he's a definitive source, you might want to dig a little deeper than google's front page

For 1977's review Roger Ebert ranked Star Wars #10 on his best movies list, well below Annie Hall.
For 1980 he put Empire Strikes back a bit higher at #7

A fellow critic, at one time equally renown, is Gene Siskel.
He put Star Wars at #7 in 1977 (and Annie Hall first)
In 1980, Empire Strikes back isn't even on his list.

Two renown critics. Two opinions. No consensus except so far as they both believe Annie Hall is the better movie and that Ordinary People (1980) is better than Empire.

http://www.innermind.com/misc/s_e_top.htm

[Scotty]

The Oscars are not immune to politics.  Rocky won Best Picture instead of A New Hope.  Is it a better movie?  Were the movies in 1980 better than the movies in 1977?  Probably!

In the meantime, it would behoove you to educate yourself on who Roger Ebert is and his contributions to cinema.

Incidentally. If you want to quote Roger Ebert and say he's a definitive source, you might want to dig a little deeper than google's front page

For 1977's review Roger Ebert ranked Star Wars #10 on his best movies list, well below Annie Hall.
For 1980 he put Empire Strikes back a bit higher at #7

A fellow critic, at one time equally renown, is Gene Siskel.
He put Star Wars at #7 in 1977 (and Annie Hall first)
In 1980, Empire Strikes back isn't even on his list.

Two renown critics. Two opinions. No consensus except so far as they both believe Annie Hall is the better movie and that Ordinary People (1980) is better than Empire.

http://www.innermind.com/misc/s_e_top.htm

I really fail to see your point here.  Are you pointing out that two critics have different opinions?  Fantastic, I didn't notice that.  Is this designed to support your assertion that the Oscars are the definitive pick on what is and is not a quality film?  I certainly hope not, because all you've done is demonstrate that opinions vary on good films which is actively detrimental to your point (especially considering that Empire Strikes Back's superiority to A New Hope is largely beyond the realm of opinion).

[Akalabeth Angel]

The Oscars are not immune to politics.  Rocky won Best Picture instead of A New Hope.  Is it a better movie?  Were the movies in 1980 better than the movies in 1977?  Probably!

In the meantime, it would behoove you to educate yourself on who Roger Ebert is and his contributions to cinema.

Incidentally. If you want to quote Roger Ebert and say he's a definitive source, you might want to dig a little deeper than google's front page

For 1977's review Roger Ebert ranked Star Wars #10 on his best movies list, well below Annie Hall.
For 1980 he put Empire Strikes back a bit higher at #7

A fellow critic, at one time equally renown, is Gene Siskel.
He put Star Wars at #7 in 1977 (and Annie Hall first)
In 1980, Empire Strikes back isn't even on his list.

Two renown critics. Two opinions. No consensus except so far as they both believe Annie Hall is the better movie and that Ordinary People (1980) is better than Empire.

http://www.innermind.com/misc/s_e_top.htm

I really fail to see your point here.  Are you pointing out that two critics have different opinions?  Fantastic, I didn't notice that.  Is this designed to support your assertion that the Oscars are the definitive pick on what is and is not a quality film?  I certainly hope not, because all you've done is demonstrate that opinions vary on good films which is actively detrimental to your point (especially considering that Empire Strikes Back's superiority to A New Hope is largely beyond the realm of opinion).

Ah yeah it's "beyond the realm of opinion" yet not one hour ago you were quoting one man's opinion to try and prove that it was so.
Or perhaps we should divine the truth from the infallible nerd poll on imdb.com with the incredibly small sample size.

Fact is on your side there isn't an argument, just a desire to disagree.  That's why your argument is inconsistent and reactionary with a line of reasoning which changes by the hour or is quietly dropped entirely when it proves a dead end.

My rebuttle to NGTMR1 has always been that critically, Star Wars was overall better received by Empire.  I haven't heard anything that disproves that beyond people whining about their favourite movie not winning an award and quoting from websites which claim Star Trek 2009 should be nominated for best picture.

[Scotty]

I'd keep going with this, but you're an utterly infuriating person to try to talk to even when there's a point to agree on, and I have lost all respect for your opinions or your methods of expressing them.

Fact is on your side there isn't an argument, just a desire to disagree.

The complete and utter lack of self-awareness here is amusing.

[Akalabeth Angel]

Fact is on your side there isn't an argument, just a desire to disagree.

The complete and utter lack of self-awareness here is amusing.

Indeed it is:

It's easier to respond to someone who is wrong than someone you merely disagree with.

As to this claim:

I'd keep going with this, but you're an utterly infuriating person to try to talk to even when there's a point to agree on, and I have lost all respect for your opinions or your methods of expressing them.

Don't feign open-mindedness when there wasn't any to begin with.

I don't really give a **** whether they pass an arbitrary logic test administered by an obviously biased observer.

I can use the internet to <get> a ****ty "source" too.

"****ty Source". Really, giving my points fair consideration huh?


Your points might have value if your own arguments relied on actual facts, but of course they rely more on fancy:

I'm sorry that you lack the imagination to come up with that on your own, Akalabeth.

Use your imagination, jesus.

Use your ****ing imagination for once.

That and trying to discredit sources, both myself as a source and those I've quoted while offering few if any consistent insights yourself.

[NGTM-1R]

Don't feign open-mindedness when there wasn't any to begin with.

The lack of self-awareness again.

Honestly, given how much you've argued in bad faith, made an ass of yourself, and been remarkably and incredibly unpleasant across two threads on this subject I'm amazed you haven't been banned or told to get out of the topic. It's been downright Trashmanesque.

Your complaints that Scotty doesn't have an argument are, perforce, mere whining; you don't bother to illustrate this point in any meaningful way, instead reaching far back into the thread to complain about things from pages ago that are irrelevant to the issue at hand and ad hominem.

After being warned about that.

Jesus Christ, you just can't help yourself, can you?

[Akalabeth Angel]

Don't feign open-mindedness when there wasn't any to begin with.

The lack of self-awareness again.

Yeah, lack of Self-awareness. Like your fool's Crusade to prove to me that I was wrong about Conservation of Detail. 
Maybe you should've asked for clarification of my statement before spending so much energy to try and prove me wrong.  But you were more interested in my being wrong than in the possibility that I was right.

Reason I don't get banned is probably because I don't do ad-hominen attacks:

but your hatred for this movie is well-established in its immunity to reason by now

Hell, even in this thread it's come up before. I'm sorry your memory is that short.

Your endless ranting . . . indicated, of course, that you didn't understand this, so I perhaps shouldn't be surprised.

You have trouble with concepts like exposed machinery . . .

This may be a radical concept to you . . .

If you think objective fact can't be widely disputed, you must be living in some other dimension.

Good for you though. You've got a free pass to act disrespectful and attack people almost ALL the time.
Remember when this was a rule:

• Any attempts to belittle other forum members for not agreeing with you will be treated in much the same way as a direct personal attack. Yes, you may find it annoying if someone is posting an argument that shows that they don't understand the topic under discussion as well as you do, but it's worth remembering that since you probably aren't a world renowned expert in the subject, there could be someone as annoyed at you. If someone is ignorant, it is your job to enlighten them, not make fun of their ignorance.

Lucky for you that someone championed to remove it:

You're looking for a codified version of the forum guidelines that you can quote and point fingers and say "this does not fit with this collection of words".  . . . this is exactly the problem with the forum guidelines.

Soctty is a global mod, and has taken it upon himself to do something on his own that he feels is necessary to improve things.

"Lucky" for Scotty too:

I'm sorry that you lack the imagination to come up with that on your own, Akalabeth.

[Det. Bullock]

If I remember correctly Empire actually had worse reviews (not "bad" but worse) than the first Star Wars on release because many didn't like the cliffhanger ending and the darker atmosphere and pointed out plot holes while ROTJ was hailed by many as a "return to form".

I'm talking about official critics of course, not necessarily the general public.