Author Topic: Introducing the "Ballista"--right up TEI's alley  (Read 13433 times)

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Offline Aesaar

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Re: Introducing the "Ballista"--right up TEI's alley
It's also unique in that it can jump in and out of the fight very quickly, unlike the Ares. Seriously; imagine the first mission to WiH. Only this time, instead of sending a bunch of fighters and a single Ares treb strike, you have 20 Ballistas jump within 4000 KM of the convoy/UEF escort, fire off 40 Trebs, and jump out. Then you send in a wing of bombers to kill every ship in the convoy with impunity. This is possible, because Ballistas are cheap as hell, their pilots require no ACM training/experience, and they rarely get shot down.

Play Collateral Damage again.  Try to catch the Ares wing (Corvus) before it jumps away.  They stay just long enough to fire their Trebs, then they leave.  They're present for less than 30 seconds.  Two wings of Rheas (Corvus and Serpens) do the exact same thing in Darkest Hour.  And like The E said, the Ares was new by the time of FS2.  By WiH, it's aging, and it's probably about as expensive as the Artemis.  Maybe less.

Honestly, most of your comments against the Ares are pure conjecture, not supported by game material.  The role you've pegged for your "Ballista" is one that, going by the tech description and uses in missions, is perfectly filled by the Ares and the Rhea.  It isn't necessary at all, and goes against the direction we've seen non-Kulas TEI fighters go (which is similar to what the Feds do).  Versatility is important, because Shivans are very unpredictable.  The Ares is by no means a dogfighter, but loaded with Maxims and Balors, it can seriously hurt cruisers and can kill bombers even when its bays are empty.  The Rhea can do the same, and can also carry bombs.  Your Ballista can do nothing except deliver Trebs.  If it's empty, it's useless.

One trick ponies are not what the TEI is about.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2012, 06:16:25 am by Aesaar »

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Introducing the "Ballista"--right up TEI's alley
Let's keep the discussion civil even in dissection - I want SaltyWaffles to keep posting ideas on this or other topics.

 

Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: Introducing the "Ballista"--right up TEI's alley
The Ballista seems to be a very specific design that fills a single role, outside that role it would be pure cannon fodder. e.g. if you lost your AWACS support & the ability to execute precision jumps- with slow speed and little armour a single Kent (200m/s afterburn!) with Slammers could easily wipe out a squadron, or at least force them to withdraw for fear of being wiped out.

You're pairing it against a ship it would not have been designed to fight. This is patently unfair. No known Shivan craft has performance comparable to a Kentauroi and the Shivans don't have missiles comparable to Slammers that we know of either.

It also ignores that the Trebuchet is frequently used to disarm larger ships, it was still originally designed to function against enemy bombers by allowing extremely long range interceptions. A ship like the Ballista would have at least two roles, one of them in itself the combination of two others. The first is as suppression of enemy weapons for strike packages. The second is as destroyer group defense; this would combine the original Trebuchet role of anti-bomber work with the adopted one of being able to disarm enemy ships.

In general I agree that this is not a likely design, but belittling it in this way is disingenuous.
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Offline Thaeris

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Re: Introducing the "Ballista"--right up TEI's alley
I will make the following analysis:

...In WWII, aviation engineers were finding that designing an aeroplane capable of doing everything seldom did everything well. There were a few aircraft that emerged as truly capable multi-role fighters, but they were built as fighters from the onset. Their capabilities became manifest either through specific variants or simply prolonged development of the airframe.

As technology progressed, the skill set of any given aircraft has mounted - today you of course see tactical aircraft capable of strategic missions, something engineers from the 40's might not be shocked by (given that they were thinking ahead, like any good engineer does), but nevertheless would still be astounded by.

What engineers and commanders have also observed is that niche aircraft, unless that niche is sustainable or essential to operations, tend to become obsolete much faster than conventional designs. Niche designs are also designed to operate within a specific battlefield dynamic - heck, any design is designed around the presumed constraints of the theater of operation and the operational characteristics of the user... However, when the battlefield dynamic changes, the niche design often suffers the most. The point is that general designs tend to be better, more reliable, and longer-lasting combat craft than the proverbial one-trick-pony.

If we apply this logic to FS, the Ballista in many ways reminds me of what the good old Athena was supposed to be. It took a heavy tactical load to the front rather than a strategic load. It was fast, but fighters were better suited to filling the superiority mission. But, it was either designated as a heavy fighter or tactical bomber rather than just a general bomber... note that's not itself quite a niche design despite how it sounds. What you want is a new tactical bomber. The best part is that you probably don't even need one.

I've yet to play WiH. I work on my own projects, my own mod teams, and then there's school. BUT, there is the GTB Rhea, which for all intents and purposes seems to be the replacement for the Athena that the Zeus just wasn't. I have no idea why the bomber's missile banks (as of the wiki) are smaller than the Ares'... this is rather nonsensical tabling in my view. However, I can say that removing the gun hardpoint of the Rhea and replacing it with another missile pod will give you a very large weapons payload, no gun energy to worry about, and it's fast. It's also logistically viable, and a commander can switch the load-out of the strike bomber wing to mount defensive guns or drop into the engagement area with two large pods full of missiles, launch them, and then get out. The sophisticated fire control system of a bomber will also make targeting ideally better than the run-of-the mill fighter (the statement is primarily fluff, of course). Given the logistical strain that I precieve to be on the GTVA's hands, I also really don't want to have to commission R&D for another combat craft, and then buy it...

So, the solution is general, and the general solution is probably best. And if BP actually wanted to use this concept, you could probably have a working model by tomorrow.
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Re: Introducing the "Ballista"--right up TEI's alley
Random thoughts about the treb, they may or may not make sense (the thoughts, not the trebs).

In BP2, while it is used on a regular basis, we don't quite see the kind of treb spam the Ballista would be designed to do. Now, considering the number of treb-capable strikecraft around, if the Alliance had a good supply of them, we should see treb strike much more often, at least until the Federation finds an effective counter, given how overpowered the treb is. I also know that for gameplay reason, it should be avoided to pit the player against trebs too often, but I'm wondering what the in-universe explaination would be. I'd bet that the playload-to-cost ratio is inferior to a cyclops', or something like that.
/random_thoughts_of_the_morning

 

Offline niffiwan

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Re: Introducing the "Ballista"--right up TEI's alley
You're pairing it against a ship it would not have been designed to fight. This is patently unfair. No known Shivan craft has performance comparable to a Kentauroi and the Shivans don't have missiles comparable to Slammers that we know of either.

It also ignores that the Trebuchet is frequently used to disarm larger ships, it was still originally designed to function against enemy bombers by allowing extremely long range interceptions. A ship like the Ballista would have at least two roles, one of them in itself the combination of two others. The first is as suppression of enemy weapons for strike packages. The second is as destroyer group defense; this would combine the original Trebuchet role of anti-bomber work with the adopted one of being able to disarm enemy ships.

In general I agree that this is not a likely design, but belittling it in this way is disingenuous.

I thought the original suggestion for the Ballista was to fight the UEF, with examples from The Cost of War & Delenda Est?  If that's the case then a comparison vrs the Kent is fair enough, Ballista's would still be deployed to engage targets defended by Kents (or vrs the Kents themselves).  I'll admit the comparison is probably the toughest one a Ballista would face which isn't entirely fair, but that's war, fairness doesn't come into it.

As for the roles, you're right, I forgot about the Treb's anti-bomber role - mea culpa.  It was not my intention to be disingenuous  :)
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Offline MatthTheGeek

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Re: Introducing the "Ballista"--right up TEI's alley
BUT, there is the GTB Rhea, which for all intents and purposes seems to be the replacement for the Athena that the Zeus just wasn't. I have no idea why the bomber's missile banks (as of the wiki) are smaller than the Ares'...
In order to not repeat the mistake of making a hugely expensive craft like the Ares, obviously. Remember the average survivability of bombers in the field ? You don't need to carry dozens of torpedoes, you'll be unable to fire them all before going down anyway. And if you're just going pop-up treb strike, you still have more than enough room for half the price or so.

EDIT: In any case, one of the reason I think Ares and Rhea are good enough for the job is that the GTVA doesn't have that many trebs to deploy anyway. Trebuchet are OP weapons, and you can only mass-produce OP weapons to a point. I think it's comparatively easier to deploy Trebs on the field than to produce them back afterwards, especially given the low loss rate of pop-up strike squadrons.

Which means that since delivery isn't the reason why we don't see more pop-up strikes, the Ballista is utterly redundant.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2012, 07:32:34 am by MatthTheGeek »
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Offline General Battuta

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Re: Introducing the "Ballista"--right up TEI's alley
The Rhea's secondary bank capacity is best judged by its combat performance, and anyone who's been through Delenda Est can doubtless attest it's a pain.

 
Re: Introducing the "Ballista"--right up TEI's alley
many of your ideas are contradicting themselves.   your notion is to have a cheap missile boat that does nothing else, but then suggest it's better than an Ares in case it DOES get attacked, it can somehow defend itself better than a heavily armed assault fighter with its paper armor and 40 m/s max engine?  and if the idea is to just spam long range missiles, why is it that it has more short-range firepower than an ares, which is second only to the Ery in that regard?  as for survivability, that comes from the tactic, not the hardware.  ANY fighter used as a short shock jumper can be expected to return home unharmed.  and BP has already demonstrated you don't need special or extra jump drives to do it.

It CAN "defend" itself better than the Ares in the course of the Ballista's intended use. By, you know, jumping in without warning, firing missiles quickly, and jumping out before getting shot at. Which, you know, the Ares can't do. I would know. I've killed dozens of them because they could not do this. Including when they try Treb strikes.

And no, no, no. Any fighter can be used as a short shock jumper? And be expected to return home unharmed? What?

Did you miss all of the times in the game where fighters jump in, get killed by the dozens, and can't jump out? And how many of them can jump right back out after jumping in? The answer, in a vast majority of cases, is none.

It has more short range firepower than an Ares because it can carry a higher missile payload, be deployed in much larger numbers, fire more missiles at once, and not worry about getting attacked because you're jumping out in a few seconds anyway. Which, again, an Ares is not capable of doing and dies often as a result.

So a Ballista wing--or, say, 10 of them--can jump in about 1500M away from a corvette, lock and fire 40 Gremlin missiles in a few seconds, and jump back out. Result is a partially crippled, or at least seriously weakened, capital ship, at no extra cost, and no losses.
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Re: Introducing the "Ballista"--right up TEI's alley


Which means that since delivery isn't the reason why we don't see more pop-up strikes, the Ballista is utterly redundant.

You're assuming that Trebs are somehow really expensive, even though we have had vastly more advanced missiles in real life for decades.

But yes, delivery is a reason why we don't see more pop-up strikes, because in game, most of the time those treb launchers end up dead. And only launch a few Trebs.

The Ballista can do way more than just a treb strike, too. With its ability to jump in and out without delay, it can jump in to closer range, lock and fire other kinds of missiles, and jump out without losses. Those missiles could be Slammers, EMP's, TAGs, Harpoons, Tornadoes, etc.
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Offline General Battuta

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Re: Introducing the "Ballista"--right up TEI's alley
I still want to hear the response to this!

Quote
You have put a lot of thought into your doctrine, but how well would it hold up with the upcoming introduction - on both the UEF and GTVA sides - of capship-fired countermeasures?

 

Offline Jellyfish

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Re: Introducing the "Ballista"--right up TEI's alley
With its ability to jump in and out without delay, it can jump in to closer range, lock and fire other kinds of missiles, and jump out without losses. Those missiles could be Slammers, EMP's, TAGs, Harpoons, Tornadoes, etc.

Treb launching Nemesis'ing fighters?  :shaking:

As for the countermeasure system, is it just a very good ECM suite that prevents, or confuses, lock? Because that can be circumvented with dumbfire rockets. Take out all guidance systems from the Treb, and put in a more powerful propulsion system, larger warhead, or merely make it smaller, allowing fighters and bombers to carry more of them. This comes at a cost of making them less useful as fighter sweepers, though... which beats the point.
Is it a good CIWS that shoots down even non-targetable missiles? Because that too can be overwhelmed, by massing Trebs. Swarm launch them.
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Offline General Battuta

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Re: Introducing the "Ballista"--right up TEI's alley
They work like fighter countermeasures - they won't affect dumbfires, only heatseekers and aspect seekers.

 

Offline Dragon

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Re: Introducing the "Ballista"--right up TEI's alley
Also, they actually work best on heatseekers, aspect seekers just go dumbfire when jammed, making the capship CMs not very useful against trebs if the ship is immobile.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Introducing the "Ballista"--right up TEI's alley
Also, they actually work best on heatseekers, aspect seekers just go dumbfire when jammed, making the capship CMs not very useful against trebs if the ship is immobile.

Incorrect.

 
Re: Introducing the "Ballista"--right up TEI's alley
I still want to hear the response to this!

Quote
You have put a lot of thought into your doctrine, but how well would it hold up with the upcoming introduction - on both the UEF and GTVA sides - of capship-fired countermeasures?

That would entirely depend on what countermeasures we're talking about. I need specifics; how expensive are those countermeasures, what is their nature, how widely are they available on their fleet's ships, how effective are they, etc?

Regardless, I can't think of any countermeasures that would reduce the Ballista's cost effectiveness from "crazy OP" to "not all that cost effective". Remember, they can jump to anywhere in Sol in a few minutes, without warning, and jump back in seconds, provided the time was taken to charge up both drives beforehand.

So, say, those refineries, fuel storage/cargo, and stations in the second to last mission (where you "bait" the Carthage)? Here's how you do major damage, both on a strategic AND logistical level, without any losses:

1) A group of 20-30 Ballistas charge up both their drives. A third are just equipped with anti-fighter/turret missiles, a third have half of that and half bombs, and a third have just bombs.  An Aurora fighter, or maybe even a Pegasus for maximum tactical advantage, "maps" out the area ahead of time, and if needed, helps with the jump calculations.

2) The Ballistas jump in. Any fighters or turrets in the area have no fewer than three Trebuchets (or a dozen Harpoons, or three dozen Tornadoes) fired at them within ten seconds. Provided that there's no immediate threat, the two-thirds of the force equipped with bombs goes after their designated targets--fuel and supply "crates"/storage, refineries, tankers, etc; potentially even the stations themselves. Any surviving fighters are finished off with further salvos of anti-fighter missiles; on the very off chance that a few survive anyway, the time they spend trying to evade and just survive is enough for the rest of the Ballistas to complete their objectives.

3) After hitting their targets, they jump right back out. Enemy jump-5 response teams arrive minutes afterward, finding absolutely no enemies to attack, pursue, or track.

So, there you go. You can pull off operations like that frequently, inflicting major damage to enemy logistics/supplies, morale, and the enemy's strategic initiative. Any potential countermeasure or countertactic would have to adequately protect all such potential targets. That also means that, even if they work, the Ballistas have already pulled their weight because they're tying down a ton of enemy resources, personnel, craft, and even potentially ships.

But it's important to remember that any effective countermeasure to the Ballista would have to also be, by nature, an effective countermeasure against shock-jump tactics and/or massed missile salvos--even for individual fighters. Such countermeasures would be massive game changers to combat and strategy as a whole, not just to the Ballista.

There is, MAYBE, one already existing counter to Ballista strikes against capships and fighter wings--AWACS. Except that this is apparently false, as every mission in which you have an AWACS on your side--FS2 or BP--enemy missiles still lock on to you and track you just fine. Jumping in and out works just fine as well. So that doesn't really work, then. Even if it did, AWACS ships are rare and valuable strategic assets, and are thus not going to be seen outside of battlegroups or fighter wings on critical missions.

Missiles in FS2/BP don't really work as you'd expect them to, or realistically, both in terms of using and countering them. You can't shoot them down (well, all but a few kinds of missiles anyway), and they're easy to evade unless in large numbers or when evasion is more difficult. They also have absurdly short range--a modern medium-long range anti-fighter missile has a range of over ONE HUNDRED KILOMETERS, and travels at speeds around Mach 5. They're maneuverable and not at all cruise missiles, either. The decades-old Phoenix missile the F-14 Tomcat used had a range of 190KM and traveled at Mach 5, and a Tomcat could carry at least four of them at a time.

Ship AAA either can't shoot down a given type of missile because of a flag setting, or they can, in which case the usually slow missile/torpedo is shot down with ease unless fired in large numbers or up close.

Torpedos are absurdly slow; a WW2-era torpedo travels faster, and its booster/engine is a tiny propeller--and the torpedo has to travel through water, which tends to be rather thicker and more friction-y than empty space.

The end result is that missiles and torpedos do not behave anything like they should or like you'd expect, and the "balance" is screwed up. And the warheads are nowhere near heavy enough to make a rocket engine so ineffective/inefficient at propelling the damn things. When gravity completely and utterly outmatches rocket boosters of over three hundred years in the future in terms of giving torpedoes velocity, you have failed so hard I can't even begin to describe it.

Not that you need to upset the gameplay style/dynamics of Freespace to fix it. Just make all missiles "shoot-down-able", but have longer ranges across the board and/or faster velocities. To make things easier and more fun, have the HUD automatically passively highlight/target missiles in your area (or heading towards your area), to make evading and destroying them easier and more fun.

In terms of anti-ship torpedoes, here's what you'd do:
1) They have longer ranges (how much is up for debate/testing)
2) They have MUCH, MUCH faster velocities. This is to make them harder to intercept, practical beyond point blank range, and far more dramatic on both sides.
3) They would do MUCH more damage to capships, depending on the type of torpedo and type of target. So, say, some torpedoes are designed to be effective against destroyer armor, but do less health damage, while other are only effective against lighter armor but do much more health damage (so it would do negligible damage against a destroyer, because of its much heavier armor).
4) They would, depending on the type, take up a lot of space. Only bombers, or craft similar to them, would be able to carry them at all. Depending on the yield and rating against armor, they'd either be things you could only carry two of on medium/heavy bombers, or two of on a light bomber (that's just the gist; the idea is that mnongo torpedoes for use against superdestroyers would be one or two apiece on heavy bombers, while a light bomber could carry one or two less powerful torpedoes for use against cruisers, etc.)

Alternatively, they'd be dumbfired in order to render ECM and countermeasures useless, but would have very fast velocities; this makes lining up a shot something that requires skill unless you're close up, and it also requires efforts to prevent it from getting shot down by either fighters or AAA. Keep in mind, though, that was much faster velocities, it won't be the "snails of doom" that torpedoes currently are.

Anti-ship torpedoes would be completely distinct from anti-subsystem/turret missiles; they'd behave more like heavy anti-fighter missiles that have intelligent enough tracking to hit the target even if it moves a little).

 



******

As for how Ballistas are able to jump in accurately enough to be in good positions from the moment they exit subspace--the answer is twofold.

1) For cases in which you need to be precise in a narrow window of opportunity, you need an AWACS or sufficient sensor/whatever support via several Auroras or capships. Thus, this would only happen in cases where the target(s) is high value and/or critical, or when deploying an AWACS (or enough equivalent assets) is not risky or costly.

2) For cases in which you don't need as much precision, or you have a larger window of opportunity, you'd either have indirect support (like from command, more distant AWACS, or previous, uncoordinated scouting) or you'd have one or two Auroras (or Pegasi, scouts, etc.) in the area to provide assistance and report the effect on target (if the Ballistas can't stick around to find out). Given that an Aurora is common and not exactly expensive (BP lore is a little unclear on that), this makes strikes/operations like this easy and relatively cheap to perform.

With fighter or ship cover, Ballistas can also operate without jumping out right away (or after striking the targets), as in most cases they'd outrange--or outgun at range, with FAR more missiles. Even with just a 40MPH/KPH (which does the game use?) engine and no afterburner, it would still keep up with (and in some cases outrun) any ship (SHIP, not fighter/craft).

« Last Edit: May 08, 2012, 12:43:17 pm by SaltyWaffles »
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Offline Qent

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Re: Introducing the "Ballista"--right up TEI's alley
Don't try to mix realism and FreeSpace. You will soon go insane as so many of us already are.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Introducing the "Ballista"--right up TEI's alley
Quote
Missiles in FS2/BP don't really work as you'd expect them to, or realistically, both in terms of using and countering them. You can't shoot them down (well, all but a few kinds of missiles anyway), and they're easy to evade unless in large numbers or when evasion is more difficult. They also have absurdly short range--a modern medium-long range anti-fighter missile has a range of over ONE HUNDRED KILOMETERS, and travels at speeds around Mach 5. They're maneuverable and not at all cruise missiles, either. The decades-old Phoenix missile the F-14 Tomcat used had a range of 190KM and traveled at Mach 5, and a Tomcat could carry at least four of them at a time.

Careful - this way lies madness.  ;)

I think you've made a good case for your dedicated pop-up Treb strike platform, though I think you're slightly overselling its capabilities against maneuvering opponents; a good human pilot will simply never be hit by Treb fire, and the AI suffers only because it's just not very smart about fast aspect-seekers. Capships launching flares will degrade some of the salvo into missing entirely, and decoy other weapons so that they strike the hull instead of their targeted subsystem.

But creating interesting doctrine for Blue Planet isn't about figuring out an optimum tactic that can 'win' the setting; it's about creating an interesting doctrine with strengths and weaknesses that lead to exciting gameplay and interesting stories. Even Steele, beloved as he is, is written with some key flaws. So here's my challenge: can you go a step further and come up with disadvantages, difficulties, and countermeasures applicable to your doctrine? Troubles that might be encountered in implementing it, and tactics that might be adopted by the OPFOR in response to it?

A great many mods have put time and effort into coming up with awesome new ships and awesome new tactics, but Blue Planet always strives to create things that are interesting but in some way flawed.

 

Offline Dragon

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Re: Introducing the "Ballista"--right up TEI's alley
Also, they actually work best on heatseekers, aspect seekers just go dumbfire when jammed, making the capship CMs not very useful against trebs if the ship is immobile.

Incorrect.
Since when? Every time I've seen decoying a work, it acted just like that. Unless the "decoyed penalty" comes into play, that is, and the Treb explodes before hitting the target.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Introducing the "Ballista"--right up TEI's alley
We've performed codeside alterations to countermeasure behavior on aspect seekers.