[manwiththemachinegun]

So, some real game changers in Act 3 of WiH's story. Specifically in the final mission. Heavy spoilers from here on.

While the final dream mission told us much about the Shivan and Vishnan involvement in the cosmos, the UEF/GTVA war and some glimpses of their ultimate goal. I wanted to clarify some points with other fans.

I'm still uncertain why Capella was destroyed. As Bosch said, it was part warning, part show of force and... something else. From the crazy Shivan dialogue it seemed like they were distracted by something in another part of the galaxy, and that the Neo-Terran front alone wasn't enough to trigger a "full" purge. What seems odd about that, is the Shivans seemed perfectly willing to hit Earth and Vasuda Prime as far back as Freespace 1. Only the destruction of the Lucifer and the collapse of the Delta Serpentis jump node, and later Capella's nodes, resulted in any kind of a "victory" if you want to call it that.

The initial reason for the Shivan attack at Ross 128 seems clear enough. A pre-calculated intervention to cull two warring races, something the Shivans have done possibly thousands of times.

Shivan war doctrine I found fascinating, demonstrating the full horror of their capabilities. They are so impossibly vast, they can afford to sacrifice fighters, cruisers, destroyers, even juggernauts to gauge their opposition. They are obsessed with taking the 'long view' in any strategic situation. They're also apparently older than the Vishnans, and even Brahmans.

It's also clear whatever truce they had with the other great powers of the galaxy to prevent another apocalyptic war... it's failing. Both on their end and the Vishnans. I got the sense for their dialogue they no longer care about maintaining balance, and seem poised to break their own rules about who gets culled and who doesn't. The Vishnans are likewise revealed to be manipulating the human race for their own ends, being the real power behind all of UEF culture and philosophy. I don't know which is more terrifying. It seems the GTVA's paranoia was completely justified. How can anyone conscience humanity to being the shaped tools of an alien race? Bei is shown to be quite possibly a puppet of the Vishnans in the same way the Elders are.

And, again, *seemingly* the only way out of this disaster is for Laporte to take up Bosch's "deal", whatever that turns out to be.

Regardless, this isn't going to be pretty. Humans and Vasudans are like Vatican city wedged between NATO and the Warsaw Pact... and the DEFCON level is nearing 1.

Is there anyway out of this mess without becoming slaves or another bloodstain on the boot of these two powers? Is there anyway to resist a force that has ruled the galaxy for billions of years? Prior Freespace games provided endings that, while pyrrhic, were at least somewhat hopeful. Earth was saved at the end of the Great War, and the Shivans were contained in Capella at great cost. Is there any such chance here? That's what I look forward to finding out.

[Veers]

They're also apparently older than the Vishnans, and even Brahmans.

And they seem to take second fiddle, first to the Brahmans, and currently.. almost. To the Vishnans.  So I wonder, what makes them take the lessor position in the galaxy?....

[manwiththemachinegun]

I think the implication is they tolerated the other "great" powers because it fit within their long term goals. Assuming the Shivans are as calculating and as farsighted as we've been told, I think they would be willing to see what these other entities brought to the table so to speak.

Anyone have another read on Capella? I ran the mission again and I still can't get the gist of why Capella was destroyed. We know the Shivans destroy stars as part of their cycle, creating new jump nodes and generally "tidying up" the universe. But it seemed from their dialogue there was something else happening in another part of the galaxy, that drew them off. Was it Bosch?

[Phantom Hoover]

You're assuming that :V:'s tentative and unpublished ideas on the Shivans are BP canon. Don't do that.

[manwiththemachinegun]

Fair enough, but star killing is something Shivans excel at, and they do know how to screw with subspace like nobody's business.

Specifically, I'm referring to the Shivan gibberish that indicated that there was, apparently, something very very wrong in another part of the galaxy that was worth pursuing more than mopping up Capella.

[Drogoth]

Damn right the Vishans are traitorous bastards that need to be messed with!

DOWN WITH THE UEF, PUPPETS OF THE VISHNANS! Tev4Lyfe.

But in all seriousness, Act Three took me for a ride. I'm gonna be late to morning lecture. Exactly the same way I was when I first discovered WiH.

I congratulate you on a job well done BP team - my GPA does not. I think I need to give this some more thought before I give any real opinion but the thing that strikes me right after finishing is:

What was our deal with the Shivans? Are they tired of being sidekicks? Do we help them take over? Are they tired of their role? Do we take their place? Do we bring about the second apocalypse and balance the universe entirely?

I'm also curious about what a Federation Victory would even look like, with the council now compromised. Do we get to see an epic team up where Calder and Steele fly side by side and blow up some Vishnans? Damn I hope so.

[Aesaar]

Anyone have another read on Capella? I ran the mission again and I still can't get the gist of why Capella was destroyed. We know the Shivans destroy stars as part of their cycle, creating new jump nodes and generally "tidying up" the universe. But it seemed from their dialogue there was something else happening in another part of the galaxy, that drew them off. Was it Bosch?

Bosch brokered a deal that stopped them there.  As for why they destroyed Capella, the words "transabyssal gate" appear in the non-Ken part of the dialogue.

[Azrael15]

I just want to know how that creepy bastard, the Transcendent, fits into all this.

[Rodo]

Yes, Bosch deal was to sacrifice himself and some others, integrate their knowledge with the shivan mainframe/hive mind so the Shivans could asses the problem with "mortal" eyes, just as the Vishinans did with Bei, then after getting all that knowledge they completed their end of the bargain giving human kind a second chance.

Now, whatever Bosch expected GTVA to accomplish, I cannot fathom.

[Phantom Hoover]

The Transcendant is probably just an easter egg. You only see evidence of him when you're insane, after all.

[manwiththemachinegun]

Maybe, but I think we've seen enough evidence that the Shivans and Vishnans can screw somewhat with the very fabric of reality. If humans started messing around with technology they didn't fully understand, it's not too impossible to think of something awful like that occurring.

Hey, it happens in Star Trek all the time.

The bigger concern is simply this, whatever balance of power pact kept the Vishnans and Shivans from each other's throats seems to be wearing down. The Vishnans are hiding some secret objective, the Shivans seem dissatisfied with whatever pact they've adhered to these past few billion years.

I don't want a Babylon 5 style, "Get out of our galaxy!" speech, or a simple sortie that wins the day. These powers are too intractable for that. My personal guess? The biggest advantage humanity has is the CASSANDRA network. Knowledge is power, and now Laporte and her allies have more intel on Shivan motives and ability than throughout the entire Great War. There has to be more information that can be gained. A game changer. Something that these guys both WANT more than their silly eradication protocols.

[Aesaar]

I don't want a Babylon 5 style, "Get out of our galaxy!" speech, or a simple sortie that wins the day.

I don't want this either.  A simple speech would be silly, and a single engagement wouldn't make sense if it worked.  I just want what resulted from those things in B5.    I want the Shivans and the Vishnans to leave us alone.

[General Battuta]

You know, we devs did at one point come out and promise that the war in BP2 wouldn't be resolved with anything as dull as 'the Shivans make both sides unite.'

So I'll also add the promise that the motivation behind the Terminal Protocol is not as dull as 'make emerging civilizations be nice'. There might even be enough information present to figure it out!

[ellerto]

The weird thing is, that the Shivans may be not the worst thing that did happen.
The Vishnans on the other hand. They should be politicians. They do a damn good job of it.

[Jellyfish]

Something that these guys both WANT more than their silly eradication protocols.

A way home?

[ellerto]

Something that these guys both WANT more than their silly eradication protocols.

A way home?

Cookies, maybe?

[manwiththemachinegun]

You know, we devs did at one point come out and promise that the war in BP2 wouldn't be resolved with anything as dull as 'the Shivans make both sides unite.'

So I'll also add the promise that the motivation behind the Terminal Protocol is not as dull as 'make emerging civilizations be nice'. There might even be enough information present to figure it out!

I like that. I like the idea of unfathomable alien motives. For all the talk of how the Shivans/Vishnans are like God/the Devil and how they have to be resisted is rather silly to me. The Vishnans and Shivans aren't Order and Chaos, lightside or darkside, they're other. They're not bound by any human logic or moral concepts, religious or otherwise. If we REALLY believe the Shivans are a comsic level entity, they have as much regard for our moral concepts as a gnat buzzing around a lamp.

The issue is, how to slip out from under their radar now that two small attempts to resist them have been warded off. They're clearly not set back by these failures, they're simply learning from them. There has to be something to be leveraged in their goals. Being that Freespace is a flight sim, I'm guessing some amount of combat will be involved in that. But combat alone will not save the day. There has to be a way to build a better mousetrap in other words.

My guess at this Terminal Protocol is a kind of Mutually Assured Destruction concept. Something called the Dawn War occurred which was so catastrophic it altered Shivan, Vishnan and Brahman behavior for the rest of time. I hesitate to make comparisons to Mass Effect's Reapers, but it does seem that the current cycle of cull is mainly based around keeping new races from becoming too warlike and destructive. There has to be a motive around that, even if it isn't for the creation of hippy-universe 2013.

[ellerto]

You know, we devs did at one point come out and promise that the war in BP2 wouldn't be resolved with anything as dull as 'the Shivans make both sides unite.'

So I'll also add the promise that the motivation behind the Terminal Protocol is not as dull as 'make emerging civilizations be nice'. There might even be enough information present to figure it out!

I like that. I like the idea of unfathomable alien motives. For all the talk of how the Shivans/Vishnans are like God/the Devil and how they have to be resisted is rather silly to me. The Vishnans and Shivans aren't Order and Chaos, lightside or darkside, they're other. They're not bound by any human logic or moral concepts, religious or otherwise. If we REALLY believe the Shivans are a comsic level entity, they have as much regard for our moral concepts as a gnat buzzing around a lamp.

The issue is, how to slip out from under their radar now that two small attempts to resist them have been warded off. They're clearly not set back by these failures, they're simply learning from them. There has to be something to be leveraged in their goals. Being that Freespace is a flight sim, I'm guessing some amount of combat will be involved in that. But combat alone will not save the day. There has to be a way to build a better mousetrap in other words.

But from our (terran) point of view, they motives are so distant that they are completely irrelevant for us. Either we make ourselves important for them so they won't sneeze in our direction, or they inevitably will sneeze at us and we'll be - well we'll be not.

[manwiththemachinegun]

Their motives are relevant in the sense that if humanity "fails" their arbitrary tests, the species will not survive it.

Like you said, the only way to survive is to give them some incentive to just plain go somewhere else. The alternative is that these two juggernauts get bored of their new toys, and no one is surviving that.

[ellerto]

Their motives are relevant in the sense that if humanity "fails" their arbitrary tests, the species will not survive it.

Like you said, the only way to survive is to give them some incentive to just plain go somewhere else. The alternative is that these two juggernauts get bored of their new toys, and no one is surviving that.

And that is quite unfair from them. How can we beat their "arbitrary tests" if we don't know what they are about? That is what I call "screwed situation". Perhaps all these things qualify only as a "formality" and we're screwed anyway. Who knows?
They are effectively saying: "Don't bother. Everyone dies. Sooner or later."