Hard Light Productions Forums
General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: TrashMan on December 28, 2004, 12:15:10 pm
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Now I made a gunboat..approx. 150m long, with 6 Subach turrets, 2 Flak Guns and 3 forward fixed Cyclops launchers.
Do you think I should put shields on it or not..I'm kinda having a hard time deciding since it is a warship.....
Anway, the ship calsses I'm using (ordered by size)
gunboat
cruiser
heavy cruiser
corvette
frigate
assault/light carier
destroyer
heavy destroyer/carrier
battleship/heavy carrier
dreadnought
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You spelled my choice wrong. Anyway, so not to be an ass, I say that because the whole system is rather arbitrary and will come down to what you feel like doing either way.
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I don't think they really need shields, besides it don't protect agaist beams, and Bombs would destroy e'm quick unless they are 5,000 hitpoint shields.
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No, because if a ship of that size and armament can have them, why don't transports?
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Power availability? Freighters would have the smallest powerplant that would allow them to function, whereas a warship would have the largest that would fit into the design.
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I don't know about them having shields in general, but I'd like the code for them to have shields to be there for mods that need it.
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Originally posted by Liberator
Power availability? Freighters would have the smallest powerplant that would allow them to function, whereas a warship would have the largest that would fit into the design.
why? If you have - for example - the Colossus relying upon logistics convoys, or repair crews sent in Argos into a battlezone, you'd need them to be as well protected as possible. Yes, there would be some difference due to necessity, but not enough IMO to allow shields - otherwise why wouldn't a Fenris or maybe even a Charybdis have them?
Originally posted by Moonsword
I don't know about them having shields in general, but I'd like the code for them to have shields to be there for mods that need it.
You can already; see http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,22575.0.html
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I didn't know that. Thanks, Aldo.
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I would be happy with Gunboat AI for starters :P
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Frankly, I don't care. Playing Derelict, go through the first loop, third mission through. The "gunboats" that the FREDers used there were simply Satis-class freighters with nothing but flak turrets for armament. Sure, they went down quickly, but were quite annoying.
But still, I don't really care, so however you do it is completely up to you.
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when considering the role of gunboats shields are preferable. considering they are mostly deployed agains capships and reallly shouldnt have to worry about fighters. typically a gunboat would be dispatched with a wing of fighters for cover. gunboats being a bigger threat than bombers would probibly be shot at alot. without shields or a huge about of hull points it wouldnt last very long. however the size of such a ship should be taken into account. a maelstrom gunboat is only 103 meters long and really doesnt need to power any beam weapons (main guns use ammo) so it has enought power to run a shield system. however a larger gunboat with beam cannons and lots of point defense is probibly gonna need the power for other things and thus wouldnt be able to power shields.
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As you se this part:
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Approx. 150m long, with 6 Subach turrets, 2 Flak Guns and 3 forward fixed Cyclops launchers. Speed 50m/s
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Gives you a good idea of it's role.
It's mainly used for escort, alltough in numbers it can attack a larger warships (cyclops launchers..however, the AI being a total moron launches only one salvo and then proceeds to run around in circles)
Now, the shield mesh is included in the pof, but what I'm trying to do ig get hte general oppinion/feel people have about this subject before putting the gunboats into the campaign missions.
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Well, I can't help but feel the answer to this one is clearly no. AFAIK, the only shielded capship in all of FSdom was the lucifer. And even the shivans only had one of those hanging around. And considering that they obviously know how to do it, the fact that all shivan ships aren't carrying shielding is probably a clue that it's a very very difficult thing to do. Come to think of it, even the shields on the lucy weren't standard issue, they were essentially invulnerable.
Everything in FS points to there being some major trouble that prevents just plopping down a couple of fighter shield generators in a capship. And humanity doesn't seem to have anything even remotely close to the lucy technology. Ships about the size of your gunboat are clearly not shielded, so your gunboat probably shouldn't be either.
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i like gunboats in general. kinda lets you engauge bigger oponents. my gunboat is smaller and porbibly does more damage. im using shields on mine. however a gunboat isnt a ship you want to use in every mission.
if your curious the maelsrom has 4 point defense guns, 3 missile banks (4 whenever the scp guys implement full 4th bank support), a pair 200mm gatling guns, and an anti-fighter missile turret.
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The Lucifer itself was never "shielded"-- it was all the "invulnerable" tag in FRED. "Shielded" is regarded as having a protective, regularly-used outer protection for the hull, like on fighters and bombers.
The Lucifer's "shield" was strictly for the storyline: the only reason that the Lucifer never took damage was because it was established in FRED as such.
Didn't someone have a mod that actually gave the Lucy shields, though? I remember seeing it a while back.
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Originally posted by aldo_14
otherwise why wouldn't a Fenris or maybe even a Charybdis have them?
Scale? A GTVA shield, though based on shivan shields, might be unstable at warship size size. I don't count gunboats as warships, they are single pilot bomber escorts.
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Given the size...no. If it were under a hundred meters I would say yes, but given the size, no.
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Originally posted by Liberator
Scale? A GTVA shield, though based on shivan shields, might be unstable at warship size size. I don't count gunboats as warships, they are single pilot bomber escorts.
Carybdis is only about 180-190m long. And transports are obviously much smaller; the Poseidon is 50m or so. The Shivan Cain is only 190m as well; if it was possible to do so, surely they'd be shielded?
Goven TMs definition of the size and armament of this thing (11 turrets including 2 flak), I'd class it as a warship.
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See what I mean?
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I class anything over 100m as a warship with lots of crew, you can call it a cutter or whatever, but to my mind a gunship is perhaps half-again the size of a bomber, give or take, with at most 3 crew(pilot and 2 gunners one for each side)
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Originally posted by TrashMan
Now I made a gunboat..approx. 150m long, with 6 Subach turrets, 2 Flak Guns and 3 forward fixed Cyclops launchers.
Do you think I should put shields on it or not..I'm kinda having a hard time deciding since it is a warship.....
Anway, the ship calsses I'm using (ordered by size)
gunboat
cruiser
heavy cruiser
corvette
frigate
assault/light carier
destroyer
heavy destroyer/carrier
battleship/heavy carrier
dreadnought
There are two ways you can do this.
1) You can make it the way you want to do it.
2) You can make it so it is realistic.
I don't know you, so I leave #1 to you alone.
As for #2, I say it should have shields. Someone commented about beems not effecting shields? This is easy to fix. You can create docking point and use the warship to dock with the dockee object. The object of which is acting as the dockee, can have a trigger placed on it, where if it is not destroyed delay, warship is invuln to all beems. The beem weapon would have to target this object, which can be prevented through AI scripting. Now, if the shields on the capital ship are > 50% object is also invuln to both normal and beem fire. If the shields are < 50%, object is vuln. When object is destroyed, warship is vuln to beem weapons. This is realistic, since beem weapons seem to have more power then a simple pulse and could cut through shields when there integrity is under 50%.
A brush up:
Warship docked with object acting as reacter.
Object invuln && object invuln to beem
Warship invuln to beem weapons
Warship shields < 50% == object vuln.
Object destroyed == warship vuln to beem weapons.
Larger ship, larger code:
Warship docked with object 1 && object 2
(Object 1 && object 2) invuln to beem && invuln to everything
Warship invuln to beem weapons
Warship shields < 50% == Object 1 && Object 2 vuln.
Object 1 && Object 2 destroyed == Warship vuln to beem weapons.
In addition, looking at today, a small fighter has no chance fighting a capital ship. If a larger fighter or bomber uses a bomb or ship missle, the ship can be destroyed.
Earth has an atmosphere, which protects us from powerful energies every day of our lives. In FS2, ships use energy based weapons to destroy each other. Thus, fighters use shields to help prolong there life. If a fighter should have a shield, then it is stupid to say a large ship shouldn't. Now this is an opinion, but I'm the type of guy that believes that you should not have even .01% chance of taking down a warship in a small little fighter, because it is unrealistic. However, I am a believer that a larger fighter or bomber could take down a ship, but due to technoledgy, a single missle should not be enough to do it anymore. Investing in the idea that fighters are still used in space in FS2 period of time, they should be viewed as support crafts, rather then B-52 bombers in the feature. Remember, the US NAVY does not carry B-52 bombers on a air craft carrier. Thus, several bombers, or a few bombers with the aid of a warship would be nessasary to take out a fairly large warship. A large bomber, coming from a space station could be viewed as something with a potential threat to destroy a large capital ship. This of corse would then fall into a small corvette. This is my opinion based on some facts that are seen in todays world. I don't expect anyone or everyone to agree with me, it is simply another persons view. Hope this helps. :nod:
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Originally posted by xenthorious
There are two ways you can do this.
1) You can make it the way you want to do it.
2) You can make it so it is realistic.
I don't know you, so I leave #1 to you alone.
As for #2, I say it should have shields. Someone commented about beems not effecting shields? This is easy to fix. You can create docking point and use the warship to dock with the dockee object. The object of which is acting as the dockee, can have a trigger placed on it, where if it is not destroyed delay, warship is invuln to all beems. The beem weapon would have to target this object, which can be prevented through AI scripting. Now, if the shields on the capital ship are > 50% object is also invuln to both normal and beem fire. If the shields are < 50%, object is vuln. When object is destroyed, warship is vuln to beem weapons. This is realistic, since beem weapons seem to have more power then a simple pulse and could cut through shields when there integrity is under 50%.
A brush up:
Warship docked with object acting as reacter.
Object invuln && object invuln to beem
Warship invuln to beem weapons
Warship shields < 50% == object vuln.
Object destroyed == warship vuln to beem weapons.
Larger ship, larger code:
Warship docked with object 1 && object 2
(Object 1 && object 2) invuln to beem && invuln to everything
Warship invuln to beem weapons
Warship shields < 50% == Object 1 && Object 2 vuln.
Object 1 && Object 2 destroyed == Warship vuln to beem weapons.
In addition, looking at today, a small fighter has no chance fighting a capital ship. If a larger fighter or bomber uses a bomb or ship missle, the ship can be destroyed.
Earth has an atmosphere, which protects us from powerful energies every day of our lives. In FS2, ships use energy based weapons to destroy each other. Thus, fighters use shields to help prolong there life. If a fighter should have a shield, then it is stupid to say a large ship shouldn't. Now this is an opinion, but I'm the type of guy that believes that you should not have even .01% chance of taking down a warship in a small little fighter, because it is unrealistic. However, I am a believer that a larger fighter or bomber could take down a ship, but due to technoledgy, a single missle should not be enough to do it anymore. Investing in the idea that fighters are still used in space in FS2 period of time, they should be viewed as support crafts, rather then B-52 bombers in the feature. Remember, the US NAVY does not carry B-52 bombers on a air craft carrier. Thus, several bombers, or a few bombers with the aid of a warship would be nessasary to take out a fairly large warship. A large bomber, coming from a space station could be viewed as something with a potential threat to destroy a large capital ship. This of corse would then fall into a small corvette. This is my opinion based on some facts that are seen in todays world. I don't expect anyone or everyone to agree with me, it is simply another persons view. Hope this helps. :nod:
One addition note about transports. Capital ships (war based) are ships purchased by the government, and made by civilian companies. Transports, are (in almost all cases) contracted ships made by the company and owned by the company, but leased to the government.
A warship (using energy based weapons) must have a reacter suitable to power those weapons. A warship, designed for war, must have a reacter which can not only surpass civil based reacters, but also be able to overdrive itself in ciritcal needs (quality must be over 100%). The governent's soul duty is to protect itself, it's kingdom, it's population. Every bit of money made in the government is taxed, and a large quota of that money is invested in warcrafts (specially in war time). The government looks for the product that meets everything in the scope at the least cost. They do not care if something cost billions of dollars, as long as, everything they wanted is met, and no one has something cheeper.
Transports however, do not fall under the same catagory as a simple warship, because they are often leased. Thus, it is the company themselves, who invest in the ship, to make profit from rent and time. Thus, quality and efficiency is left to the companies scope of developement.
What does all this mean? Transports and warships should not be viewed the same when comparying the two for what should, and should not have shields.
IMO, a transport should have shields, but should not be resistant to beem weapons because the quality of the equipment in the transport should not compair to a capital warship.
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I would give it shields just for the hell of it. Be different.
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Originally posted by TrashMan
As you se this part:
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Approx. 150m long, with 6 Subach turrets, 2 Flak Guns and 3 forward fixed Cyclops launchers. Speed 50m/s
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50m/s is way to fast for a capital ship and if it is that fast then you'd think that most of it's power would be in the engines
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Originally posted by Knight Templar
See what I mean?
What would you rather I do - work or engage in pointless arguements?
:D