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Off-Topic Discussion => Gaming Discussion => Topic started by: Col. Fishguts on July 04, 2010, 05:51:29 pm

Title: Strike Fighters Project 2
Post by: Col. Fishguts on July 04, 2010, 05:51:29 pm
Recently I stumbled upon the updated Strike Fighters 2 series of "light" flight sims:

http://www.thirdwire.com/index.htm (http://www.thirdwire.com/index.htm)

I remember reading reviews of the original "Strike Fighters Project 1" a few years back, which was promising but had some shortcomings. Now there's an upgraded engine, most gameplay bugs have been ironed out and there are now half a dozen games based on the same engine. The games are fully moddable and they can even be merged into one installation.

I've started with SF2: Vietnam, since is features the F-100D, F-105, F-4, F-8, A-4 and A7... all awesome planes that don't get much love in other sims, and so far I'm having a blast. The flight model is of course not on par with something like Flanker 2.0 or Falcon 4.0, but it's convincing enough and the different planes each have their unique handling quirks. Operating the primitive radars and bombing without CCIP is also challenging but lots of fun and makes you really appreciate the A-7 for having the first "modern" HUD. My only real complaint so far is that carrier ops are crudely implemented, there are no arresting wires... the planes just slow down when touching the deck like it was adhesive, but that might be improved in future patches.

Some screens

(https://share.ols.inode.at/P3Z32VI0O5ZAX7GJAWFVABBLMC4SMJJBLIDNEWX4)

(https://share.ols.inode.at/2XDY4THEQX029KNVXQNJ08VVQ9J56G87DL6HENV6)

(https://share.ols.inode.at/K67TQTONJC8TJ3PAB9FGPNN49SKNFGS1LYTCSI1C)

There's also a damage system that (for most parts) realistically influences the flight model.
For example, in a simple single mission me and my wingman took on a pair of Frescos. I send my wingman after one MiG-17 and engage the other one, trying to get into position to get a lock for my Sidewinder. As I struggle to get behind my MiG-17 I hear my wingman screaming in panic over the radio and realize that getting into a turning fight with Frescos while sitting in a Phantom... that thing bleeds airspeed like crazy in tight turns (the ability to hit the burners and climb out of hairy situations is awesome though).
So, as I hear the death scream of my wingman I realize that I will soon have the second Fresco on my tail while I'm still trying to shoot down the one in front of me. And soon enough i see tracer rounds fly past me from behind and shortly afterwards I hear the "CLUNK CLUNK CLUNK" of bullets entering my plane... but she's still holding together. Finally I hear the higher-pitch growling of my Sidewinder seeker having locked on and I blow the Fresco in front of me out of the sky and turn sharp to shake off the other Fresco behind me. After another intense 30 seconds I send the second Fresco to the ground, the whole time wondering why my F-4 is swinging so violently from side to side when turning.... only when switching to external view things became clear, she was still fit enough to limp back to base though.

(https://share.ols.inode.at/U87EAVOL553URQXZIIMYYFYKDSW7AWI65OJEK91P )

So, anybody else got some opinions on the other games? I'm thinking about getting SF2: Europe next... mostly because of the Harrier and the A-10, plus the fictional campaigns of the evil Sovjets invading western Europe sound like fun.
Title: Re: Strike Fighters Project 2
Post by: Dilmah G on July 05, 2010, 02:59:13 am
Ooh, looks pretty interesting. :yes:
Title: Re: Strike Fighters Project 2
Post by: Demitri on July 05, 2010, 03:49:03 pm
I would not like to be flying the Phantom in the last pic!
Title: Re: Strike Fighters Project 2
Post by: Titan on July 05, 2010, 07:08:17 pm
Sounds, cool.

Just looked on the site though, and my first thought was 'How can I get it free?'

(I'm not asking for anything illegal, that was just the first thing that came to mind. I don't really want it free)
Title: Re: Strike Fighters Project 2
Post by: NGTM-1R on July 05, 2010, 09:21:34 pm
How good is the ground-attack modelling relatively speaking?
Title: Re: Strike Fighters Project 2
Post by: mxlm on July 06, 2010, 05:29:53 pm
Well, Project 1 was about on par with the assorted Jane's survey titles, perhaps a little better. Except you're using 60's planes without much in the way of bombing aids, so aiming's a *****. Nothing like that chase-view 'your bomb will land here' thing from USAF. My understanding is that Project 2 was essentially a graphical/OS upgrade (I gather P1 had difficulties with Vista/W7), but I may be mistaken.
Title: Re: Strike Fighters Project 2
Post by: Dilmah G on July 06, 2010, 08:51:26 pm
Well if fighter pilots could bomb in WWII without bombing aids, I don't see why I couldn't in a 'Nam simulator. :P
Title: Re: Strike Fighters Project 2
Post by: IceFire on July 06, 2010, 09:27:04 pm
Looks interesting. How does it compare to IL-2? I've been keeping up with that one right up to the latest 4.09m release and eagerly anticipating the additions in 4.10m. This looks to be on par for aircraft visuals but the terrain and water seem to be not quite as good (Depends on the IL-2 map). How does the flight model compare between those two?  IL-2's feels and has been remarked as being very sophisticated (although not without it's quirks).
Title: Re: Strike Fighters Project 2
Post by: NGTM-1R on July 06, 2010, 09:30:34 pm
Well if fighter pilots could bomb in WWII without bombing aids, I don't see why I couldn't in a 'Nam simulator. :P

By Vietnam you ought to have some level of computer assist plotting, at least for the dedicated strike aircraft. I know the Thud (do they even have the F-105?) and some models of the A-4 had a semi-modern system.

And as I've discovered I typically enjoy strike more than air-to-air in these games (I have since at least Falcon 3) so  it's sort of an important point that the strike missions and aircraft be treated reasonably well. :P
Title: Re: Strike Fighters Project 2
Post by: Dilmah G on July 06, 2010, 10:03:59 pm
Bah, nothing compares to rolling the stick and craning over your shoulder whilst popping chaff and flare with a MiG or Sukhoi on your tail.

And even better than that is when you deploy air brakes in the middle of a tight turn, and pop a Sidewinder as he overshoots you. :P
Title: Re: Strike Fighters Project 2
Post by: mxlm on July 06, 2010, 11:05:12 pm
Well if fighter pilots could bomb in WWII without bombing aids, I don't see why I couldn't in a 'Nam simulator. :P

It's worth pointing out that the effectiveness of attack aircraft in, like, every WWII sim* ever made is hilariously overmodeled.

Or really, every flight sim ever.
Title: Re: Strike Fighters Project 2
Post by: Dilmah G on July 06, 2010, 11:23:07 pm
I wasn't talking about any WWII sims. Although I wouldn't mind if you elaborated.
Title: Re: Strike Fighters Project 2
Post by: Nemesis6 on July 07, 2010, 12:02:39 am
I wish I could play flight sims... I used to love planes and any flying games I could get my hands on when I was little. The campaign against the Soviets does indeed sound appealing, but this is way too complicated for a beginner, isn't it?   :doubt:
Title: Re: Strike Fighters Project 2
Post by: Dilmah G on July 07, 2010, 12:06:47 am
After real flying, most games are quite tame. Except LOMAC and Falcon, of course. :P
Title: Re: Strike Fighters Project 2
Post by: mxlm on July 07, 2010, 02:14:33 am
I wasn't talking about any WWII sims. Although I wouldn't mind if you elaborated.

Okay. In IL-2, when your wingmen make a pass, they will blow up a tank. Every time. Without fail. Unless they get shot down. Every time your squadron goes on a ground attack mission, you will blow up many tanks, barring some sort of catastrophe. Your wingmen will kill some, you may kill some (I'm really bad at hitting things, so I won't). In one mission. While this is more or less in line with the claimed kills from real world sorties, claims were, um, less than accurate. There's a reason that, say, Guderian's books don't end every paragraph with, "And then the planes showed up and they exploded my whole army," and the reason is that the planes just weren't anywhere near as effective as you would think they were if all you had to go on was their performance in flight sims.

There's a history prof/wargame buff on another forum who's gone on about this at length. I'll see if I can dig the posts up. Ah, here (http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=41140) is the thread I had in mind. You're looking for JasonC's posts.
Title: Re: Strike Fighters Project 2
Post by: Dilmah G on July 07, 2010, 02:36:47 am
Well as I said before, I wasn't going off my video game experience. I read Peter Townsend's, Pierre Clostermann's, and Douglas Bader's biographies as a child. Although only Clostermann engaged ground targets on a semi-regular basis, the fact that they engaged ground targets and skip/dive bombed them without sights is what I was referring to.

I'd imagine that history prof is dead on though. 50 cals don't take out tanks unless you bounce rounds behind the road and hit the engina
Title: Re: Strike Fighters Project 2
Post by: mxlm on July 07, 2010, 03:22:11 am
Well as I said before, I wasn't going off my video game experience. I read Peter Townsend's, Pierre Clostermann's, and Douglas Bader's biographies as a child. Although only Clostermann engaged ground targets on a semi-regular basis, the fact that they engaged ground targets and skip/dive bombed them without sights is what I was referring to.

I'd imagine that history prof is dead on though. 50 cals don't take out tanks unless you bounce rounds behind the road and hit the engina

I wasn't suggesting you were, I was using your point about WWII to further discuss flight sims. I'd note here that reading pilot biographies is not going to get you anything like an accurate picture of aircraft effectiveness against ground targets as pilot claims are simply wrong. Unless, I suppose, the biographies note that and go on to contrast pilot claims with the other side's reported losses (http://mr-home.staff.shef.ac.uk/hobbies/rocket.txt), but I'd be rather surprised if those books did anything like that.

I'll also note that bouncing bullets are completely useless. They're deformed, shedding energy, and tumbling, all of which serves to prevent them from piercing armor, even the comparatively light armor on the engine compartment. Direct hits might be another story.
Title: Re: Strike Fighters Project 2
Post by: Dilmah G on July 07, 2010, 03:51:17 am
Well then the fact that I said nothing in the entire thread about A2G effectiveness is a good thing then. By the way, both Bader's and Townsend's books contrasted confirmed kills with the other side's reported losses on several occasions. Although neither book went into much depth about CAS. Clostermann out of all was the one who flew anti-ground missions, although I don't recall if he did any kind of "compare and contrasting". I doubt it'd be necessary from his point of view if his target exploded in several thousand pieces. :P

I'd disagree when you say pilot claims are completely wrong. I'd sure like to be believed if I blew up a tank. :P

The bouncing of rounds behind the road to hit tank engines is something I remembered from the CFS1 pilots manual, I'm not sure if it actually worked. The game didn't model that possibility either. I'd assume they would've got that snippet from the pilots they interviewed.
Title: Re: Strike Fighters Project 2
Post by: mxlm on July 07, 2010, 04:02:02 am
I'd disagree when you say pilot claims are completely wrong. I'd sure like to be believed if I blew up a tank. :P

There's the rub. Go look at claims in the Pacific. "I totally sank a carrier," No, you didn't, and it was a transport, not a carrier. That stuff about having as many versions of events as there are eye witnesses? Still true in combat, and only exacerbated by the conditions in which pilots performing low altitude attacks against ground targets found themselves. But sure, completely wrong is overstating. High by a factor of 15-50 is more precise.

And yes, bouncing rounds was something they actually tried to do. It wasn't a good idea; sure, they claim they knocked out Tigers by bouncing rounds into their belly, but those claims aren't credible, and certainly aren't supported by actual evidence.
Title: Re: Strike Fighters Project 2
Post by: Flipside on July 07, 2010, 04:18:52 am
It's like Fishermen, no fish ever caught with friends is as big as the one you once caught whilst fishing alone ;)
Title: Re: Strike Fighters Project 2
Post by: NGTM-1R on July 07, 2010, 02:00:59 pm
And yes, bouncing rounds was something they actually tried to do. It wasn't a good idea; sure, they claim they knocked out Tigers by bouncing rounds into their belly, but those claims aren't credible, and certainly aren't supported by actual evidence.

To be fair there is good evidence that they did actually knock out Tigers with .50cal or 20mm fire on more than one occasion; not by penetration but by the fact that you're spewing an awful lot of bullets at the guy with six or eight guns and some of them are going to get into something he needs, jam the turret traverse, muck up the drive wheels, break his optics, snap a tread link, screw up his exhaust causing an engine overheat or fire.

Just a glance at the records of any panzer division committed to Normandy will prove that it was possible to disable or destroy tanks with aircraft guns.
Title: Re: Strike Fighters Project 2
Post by: StarSlayer on July 07, 2010, 02:16:46 pm
Achtung Jabos!
Title: Re: Strike Fighters Project 2
Post by: mxlm on July 07, 2010, 04:35:02 pm
Just a glance at the records of any panzer division committed to Normandy will prove that it was possible to disable or destroy tanks with aircraft guns.

I'm not sure about any division, but yes, this is true.
Title: Re: Strike Fighters Project 2
Post by: Col. Fishguts on July 07, 2010, 05:32:15 pm
Well if fighter pilots could bomb in WWII without bombing aids, I don't see why I couldn't in a 'Nam simulator. :P

By Vietnam you ought to have some level of computer assist plotting, at least for the dedicated strike aircraft. I know the Thud (do they even have the F-105?) and some models of the A-4 had a semi-modern system.

And as I've discovered I typically enjoy strike more than air-to-air in these games (I have since at least Falcon 3) so  it's sort of an important point that the strike missions and aircraft be treated reasonably well. :P

Well, there are different variants of the planes and weapons from the years 1968 to 1975 available, so your bombing equipment depends on the year/variant.

If you're flying a Thud in 1968, it's unguided bombs and rockets only and bombing is a purely visual thing. On the HUD you get the gunsight that's either straight ahead for A/A or depressed by some amount for A/G. From what I read, in the real aircraft the amount of depression was adjustable by the pilot, so different setting for different weapons/airspeed/altitude could be chosen. But in SF2, the depression is fixed, so dive bombing is usually the easier choice. Level bombing is possible with some practice (more details here http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_055a.html), but usually ripple-bombing or cluster bombs is the best approach. Hitting something small like a tank with a single Mk82 requires quite some luck... but then I guess that's realistic.

(https://share.ols.inode.at/MRBUG0ITYSCGJ3IK6PQRGLN5VBBA3VROM3J3C2WA)

On the other hand, if you're flying a A-7 in 1975, you get a CCIP on the HUD and you have a the option of Walleyes, Paveways, Shrikes which have their targeting procedure modeled quite realistic. The red box in the screenshots is the "visual target" marker which is sort of cheating, but it's disabled when setting the game to "realistic".


(https://share.ols.inode.at/U9REB0YHZO9FAWK79VGAQ8YDAHGMJCXELOSWXQDW)

@Icefire: I never played IL-2, so I cannot really compare it. But while the game is officially marketed as a "light" sim, I would put the flight model in the range of MS Flight Simulator, there's also the option of easy/normal/realistic for both the flight model, AI, targting systems, etc.
Graphic-wise, as you noted the planes are excellent, but the terrain is mediocre. There are also lots of third-party addons available (for example here: http://www.combatace.com/), but I haven't looked closely at them yet.