Hard Light Productions Forums
General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: GTD_Bastion on May 17, 2009, 01:29:55 pm
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In FS1, I remember Lucifer being something like an unholy abomination of technology. If the Lucifer showed up to a battle, any battle, the day was lost for Terran and Vasudan forces. It was a ship that you had to "cheat" the system to beat, and attack while it was in sub-space.
But with the Sathanas, it was more or less treated like a particularly dangerous ship. Not the single mos terrifying weapon in the universe (like the Lucifer).
At least, that's how I remembered the Lucifer in FS1. Maybe it's just nostalgia.
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The way I saw it, the Sathanas didn't fill the same role in the story of FS2 as the Lucy did in FS1. You're right, the Lucifer was enough to strike fear into everyone whenever it showed up, and that's what made it awesome.
In FS2, though, the GTVA has progressed far beyond what they were capable of in FS1. The Sathanas wasn't treated like the most terrifying weapon in the universe, because the GTVA knew they had a ship that was at least theoretically capable of matching it, and even if the Colossus failed, they could still gang up on the Sath with several destroyers and kill it. It was, definitely, a very dangerous ship, but they also knew it wasn't invincible, like the Lucy seemed to be.
On the other hand, who else thought "Oh my god, we're screwed." when they heard the words "Over 80 Sathanas juggernauts..." :shaking:
Oh hey, before I forget:
:welcomered:
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Well, one Juggernaut wasn't so terrifying when we had the Colossus, but I will agree that there wasn't that feeling of 'Oh crud, we are so screwed' when 80 of them showed up.
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Don't you mean...
Well, one Juggernaut wasn't so terrifying when we had the Colossus, but I will agree that there was that feeling of 'Oh crud, we are so screwed' when 80 of them showed up.
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No, the Sathanes sucked.
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But then how is he agreeing? unless i misread the first reply...
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I saw it as a deconstruction of the supership trope used in Freespace 1.
The GTVA had moved beyond being threatened by a single (cliched) warship. Freespace 2 showed that the Shivans were a menace in more ways than that - unknowable, unpredictable, unstoppable.
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FS2 was telling a different type of story from FS1. FS1 is the old story of an enemy race showing up with an (almost) unkillable ship and being defeated in the end by a small band of brave pilots. To tell that story you have to make the player fear the supership. Although I like the plot line of FS1 a lot that is something of a cliche.
FS2 on the other hand is about the arrogant GTVA believing that they are a match for the Shivans. The GTVA aren't scared of the Sathanas because they honestly believe that they can beat it. They're worried about it destroying the Colossus in the process but they don't doubt they can win. Of course the 80 Sathanases soon prove them wrong on that point.
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From the very first mission, when the Belisarius refuses to surrender to the Psamtik, all the way through to the tragedy at Capella, FS2 is a story about the dangers of hubris and pride.
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Ours was a proud people... and always the strongest. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y6es9Rhxpwo&fmt=22)
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Don't you mean...
Well, one Juggernaut wasn't so terrifying when we had the Colossus, but I will agree that there was that feeling of 'Oh crud, we are so screwed' when 80 of them showed up.
Nope, what he was saying was that the Sathanas didn't project that aura of fear that the Lucifer created, though Kara has pretty efficiently covered the reasons why, and I agree with him, even when 80 Saths appeared on the scene, I still didn't get the same feeling of helplessness and desperation as I did from FS1.
I think in part it's because, in FS1, we were relying on information we didn't even know was going to work, it certainly hadn't done the Ancients any good, and, at the end of the day, only bought half a victory for the newly hatched GTVA, Vasuda Prime was lost, Earth was cut off etc.
I think it may have been a mistake to leave planetary populations out of Freespace 2, part of the 'horror' of that game was knowing that the Lucifer was moving inexorably towards Earth, and when it got there, it would leave it a blasted ruin, even though the destruction was far more wholesale in FS2, it was in a system that there was no real attachment to for the player, saving the Earth, no matter how clichéd it may be, will always be a strong storyline motivator.
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An additional reason why the Lucifer seemed more threatening was because it seemed to plow through star systems in a blitzkrieg manner, hitting the capitol systems as fast as they could. Compare this with the Sathanas fleet which seemed to loiter in only a handful of systems.
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FS2 was telling a different type of story from FS1. FS1 is the old story of an enemy race showing up with an (almost) unkillable ship and being defeated in the end by a small band of brave pilots. To tell that story you have to make the player fear the supership. Although I like the plot line of FS1 a lot that is something of a cliche.
FS2 on the other hand is about the arrogant GTVA believing that they are a match for the Shivans. The GTVA aren't scared of the Sathanas because they honestly believe that they can beat it. They're worried about it destroying the Colossus in the process but they don't doubt they can win. Of course the 80 Sathanases soon prove them wrong on that point.
You know, that makes more sense than anything I've ever read before on Gen FS.
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Sort of on topic, but based on what Kara said, what do you think FS3 would be?
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Well in FS2 only one person realised that the Terrans couldn't be arrogant about the Shivans......
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Sort of on topic, but based on what Kara said, what do you think FS3 would be?
Terrans getting ass-kicked.
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Well in FS2 only one person realised that the Terrans couldn't be arrogant about the Shivans......
You mean Kappa 3?
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I think he means Bosch.
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I think he means Bosch.
I'm pretty sure it's kappa 3 :lol:
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Actually, he means Bosch.
Kappa 3 figured it out eventually, but only a few days before everyone else did, Bosch had, through one means or another figured out long before that trying to stop the Shivans through force was an experiment in futility, that was, in my opinion, why he started creating ETAC.
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I love the sense of almost godly invincibility the Shivans give off in Freespace 2. Some people might disagree but oh man did I fear them by the end of that game. Yes, the GTVA doesn't initially fear the Sathanas. It doesn't initially fear the Shivans. After they destroy the Ravana they enter the nebula merrily, are freaked out by the Sathanas but then the Collosaus destroys it too and they figure they've got nothing to fear.
But then they realize that the Sathanas is just a mainstray Shivan vessel and one of dozens (if not hundreds/thousands).
"80 Sathanas juggernaughts". You just get the sense of this vast and unstoppable armada. It's far more desperate than Freespace 1 because, as scary as the Lucifer Fleet was, it was just one fleet. FS2 gave you a sense of the incomprehensible scale of the Shivan fleet, the GTVA can't even begin to fathom how big the Shivan fleet is.
Furthermore, unlike in FS1, the GTVA loses in FS2. They freaking lose. I don't know why some people think otherwise. The last mission, one of my favorites, is just a mad rush of civilians trying desperately to escape and getting slaughtered by the thousands while you and your wingmen desperately try to protect them. And then the entire Capellan star system is wiped out and the GTVA has to escape with its tail between its legs.
Sure, they 'escape' the Shivans but they don't beat them. Not at all. Not even close. And furthermore the game ends knowing that escaping Capella may not be a permanent solution, the Shivans may well be back sometime. *gulp*
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Agreed.
You could argue that the Shivans really are the Great Preservers. And if they can't wipe out a civilization before it gets too egotistical, they're happy to bottle them up.
Not that that's the only explanation for their behavior.
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The problem with saying that it was about arrogance was that, really, it wasn't. They were wrong, but they were not arrogant. Arrogance requires unfounded faith in superiority when there is evidence to the contrary.
There is no evidence to the contrary. The GTVA has no means of determining that the Shivans are so vastly stronger than they surmise. They are operating in a manner totally consistent with the information available to them. It's easy to sit here and call it arrogance but the truth is the GTVA behaved in a very logical manner. They were simply deprived of all the normal means of intelligence-gathering on their enemies and so had no conception and no way to gain such a conception of their opponent's strength.
So FS2 isn't about arrogance. It's about lessons learned, about growth.
FS1 was Terran and Vasudan faltering steps upon the stage, about realizing they are in deeply over their head technologically and tactically.
FS2 is the lesson that we have caught up technologically and exceeded tactically, but our intelligence gathering and/or strength are not up to the task.
FS3 would be where we match or exceed.
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An optimistic projection, but the writing betrays hubris:
"With the Colossus, we have nothing more to fear."
"...securing peace in our time, and for generations to come."
"...having proven once and for all our technological and tactical superiority over our Great War enemies."
And allied recon elements encountered the Sathanas in the very first sortie into the nebula - Kappa Wing, after all. They just didn't make it home.
Moreover, 'acting in a manner totally consistent with the information available to them', in the face of a species that annihilated (at the very least) the Ancient Empire, is pretty much hubris on its own.
It's possible your reading of the text is correct, but I don't think it can be considered a definitive certainty that it 'wasn't about arrogance.'
You say that arrogance requires unfounded faith in superiority when there is evidence to the contrary, but the existence of those quotes above - combined with the assumption that the Shivans that the Ravana was the best they had, or that the Shivans had only one Sathanas - seems to be just that.
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I agree that in FS2, GTVA does display a degree of arrogance, but its tempered by always having a back-up plan. Think of it... when the Sath showed up, they first tried to ambush it, which could have worked all-be-it with expected losses. When it headed for Gamma Draconis, the backup plan was to take out the Knossos. They succeeded in accomplishing this, but they underestimated the technology, so they went with the next backup plan... the Colossus. Granted, that could have been a disaster it "Bear Bating" had been less than fully successful. Even as they prepared to take out the Knossos, Command was already implementing the backup plan of evacuating Capella and prepping the Bastion and Nereid to collapse the nodes. They didn't just consider all options, they got to work on them. I seem to think that Command even was preparing the evacuation plan as soon as they entered the nebula, keeping the "Destroy the Knossos" as the main defense plan. If they'd been totally arrogant, they'd have just thought "our fleet can handle anything the Shivans can throw at us", and left it at that.
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That's a good point.
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I don't know if it's arrogance per say. The GTVA was smart about their expedition into the portal. They knew there was a Shivan threat but they wanted to at least try and study the Knossos to try and help them restore contact with Earth. And it's true they did implement a lot of back up plans just in case things went bad.
The problem was they were just thinking in human/Vasudan terms. In our sense of scale. Up until eighty Sathanas juggernaughts blitzed through Capella's defenses and wiped out the entire star system both the Terrans AND the Vasudans were incapable of comprehending what a massive threat the Shivans are. They can't think like the Shivans, they can only make wild speculations as to Shivan motives.
The Shivans are ancient. Think of how massive their fleet must be. How many "warships" they've built since the war with the Ancients and before. It's just not possible to fathom. A "massive" fleet in Terran and Vasudan scale is just a little expeditionary force for the Shivans. Or a tiny little lost renegade fleet. Or whatever the heck the Lucifer Fleet's purpose was.
It's not really the GTVA's fault. They're just so far out of their league when they go against the Shivans that it's not even funny. The same thing happened with the Ancients me thinks. From my understanding the Shivan eradication of the Ancients took several centuries. I wouldn't doubt that the Ancients tried to shut access into their systems by collapsing jump nodes like the GTVA did at Capella and that probably did delay the Shivans but even if they come back after 50, 100, 200 years... they still come back. It's pessimistic but I just see the GTVA, eventually, sharing the same fate as the Ancients even if it takes 1,000 years.
That's why I feared the Shivans so much after FS2. The end of that game just made me feel the inevitable. "Each civilization built upon the ruins of the last" like Bosch said, and we're next! *gulp*
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I concur.
I think the only way to preserve the purity and interest of the Shivans as a menace is to consider them non-sentient (at least by human standards.) Rather, they act like a galactic immune system: becoming inflamed, reacting in highly adaptive and highly effective but non-sapient ways, escalating the response as necessary. Individual warships are cells, perhaps even antibodies.
Only on the broadest, most systemic scale are the Shivans voraciously intelligent, but their overall species 'cognition' operates on a timescale of centuries or millennia. And it doesn't occur by some kind of cliched telepathic network, but simply by the emergent properties of the Shivans themselves. No element of the system thinks, but the system as a whole does (rather like the human brain.)
That avoids both the hivemind cliche and the need to make the Shivans into 'people'. And it raises challenging questions about the effectiveness of human-style individual cognition as the best way to succeed in the cosmos.
I also like the suggestion that the Shivans literally reify from subspace. Maybe they were designed - put there to prevent any one species from achieving galactic or universal hegemony. Maybe the 'bigger problem' Volition hinted at was the humans and Vasudans themselves: what might they become if unfettered by the Shivans? A universal monoculture, devoid of diversity, vulnerable to destruction by a single shattering blow?
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Wait, if I understand this correctly, there is an idea here that the shivan's main purpose is to encounter civilizations that have "over stepped their bounds" and destroy them. However, if we follow the story of FS2, we can see that the contact with the shivans was a voluntary action taken by the NTF. They entered into possible shivan territory and lured them in with the Knossos portal.
Also with the lack of information concerning the shivans in the years before the second shivan incursion, the GTVA latest intel on the shivans was an outdated memory, like a snapshot frozen in time. They only prepared for the shivans they encountered during the great war and that is why they felt that they had a technological superiority. It may have been presumptuous to think that the shivans would remain static, and that they could advance their technology beyond that of their adversary. But there was not much else they could have done. That is, unless you wanted the GTVA to remain forever fearful and live in constant vigilance, not much else could have been done by the GTVA. The best they could do was make estimates about their enemy and strive to obtain a hard fought victory and near defeat in any future encounter with them. The GTVA took what they felt were the necessary precautions and we should not criticize them for it. They may have appeared arrogant but it was better than believing that they had no hope and would eventually die off. It not only kept them motivated but it also gave them a reason to live.
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No, they only activated the portal.
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I know it was for balance purposes though
Not at all, beam code in FS1 was incomplete at the deadline IIRC.
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No, they only activated the portal.
Sorry, what I should have said was that the NTF lured the Shivans into the system by activating the Knossos portal. I think there's a mention of this in one of the briefings.
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An optimistic projection, but the writing betrays hubris:
"With the Colossus, we have nothing more to fear."
"...securing peace in our time, and for generations to come."
"...having proven once and for all our technological and tactical superiority over our Great War enemies."
But all of these statements are absolutely true, as far as they (and the player!) know. The wording isn't terribly conservative, but it's not wrong.
And allied recon elements encountered the Sathanas in the very first sortie into the nebula - Kappa Wing, after all. They just didn't make it home.
Meaning the GTVA didn't know better. That they encountered it was irrevelant; we don't even known, in fact, that Kappa actually did encounter the Sathanas. Some of us just think so. (While others note that the area within that close proximity to the node that Kappa would have patrolled would have been crossed and recrossed in the following weeks and engagements; Kappa would have almost certainly have to have subspace jumped to run into the Sathanas when nobody else does so. It's much more likely they met a Ravana, which is impressive enough. If you don't believe that, ask the Delacroix. And Kappa didn't know the Colossus existed, a Ravana or three would have been bad enough to provoke that kind of panic.)
Moreover, 'acting in a manner totally consistent with the information available to them', in the face of a species that annihilated (at the very least) the Ancient Empire, is pretty much hubris on its own.
But how they did just that is a known quantity (shielding and the Lucifer's sheathe-shielding) and one the GTVA is capable of defending against.
You say that arrogance requires unfounded faith in superiority when there is evidence to the contrary, but the existence of those quotes above - combined with the assumption that the Shivans that the Ravana was the best they had, or that the Shivans had only one Sathanas - seems to be just that.
On the contrary; nothing you've posisted was contradictory to anything I said. That the Ravana was the best the Shivans had was never stated, and seems a poor assumption that nobody in the game actually made. They were basing their knowledge of the Shivans on current recon, which suggested only one destroyer in the immediate area, and the battle against the Lucifer fleet, which wasn't very large. Similarly, the conception of a single Sathanas seemed reasonable at the time; the ship represents a massive investment of resources and appears to occupy the fleet heirarchy posistion that the Lucifer did considering a serious lack of Shivan destroyer contacts during the war so far. The only reliable intel they had on Shivan fleet organization comes from the Great War, and it seemed to be borne out by recon and combat experience so far.
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*shrug* I guess it depends on your reading of the text, then. Arguments can be made.
But, as with Windmills, I think you're focusing too much on the largely irrelevant technical details of the narrative and missing the overall themes. But that's just my personal opinion, and not a dispositional attack on you - as with all things literary, it varies from reader to reader.
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They weren't beams, though - just long trails. So cole's correct to say the code wasn't ready.
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Yep. Bosch believed that trying to fight the Shivans would result in the end of humanity even before seeing the Sathanas fleet.
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I'm sure that we have all hear that, "The Shivans are the great destroyers, but they are also the great preservers." This quote is kind of ironic and funny since the civilizations they preserve now will most likely end up being destroyed by them later. In the FS games there is no evidence of any other civilizations aside from the main three. The question can be asked. What are they preserving?
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In the FS games there is no evidence of any other civilizations aside from the main three. The question can be asked. What are they preserving?
There is another race called the Ancients and at the time of FS, long extinct.
The Ancients at their prime destroyed many other budding civilizations and worlds, and might have even destroyed Earth and Vasuda Prime before the Terrans and Vasudans reached space. By destroying the Ancients, the Shivans in a sense saves budding civilizations from one race that will dominate the entire galaxy.
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Yeah. I like the concept the Shivans may have been engineered by another species to create eternal balance, or something similar to the Cylons in BSG (don't worry, I won't elaborate). Also, Bosch makes an analogy between our existence and the cities of Troy, each building upon the civilisation before it. So it's suggested that possibly we are part of some kind of universal cycle. But as Alpha 1 makes clear at the end of FS1, the presence of Shivans was necessary. Without the presence of the Shivans, the Ancients would've been annihalated in their infancy, the same goes for Humans and Vasudans. Oh and the Ancients narrator says the Ancients annihalated species after species, sometime enslaving them.
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In the FS games there is no evidence of any other civilizations aside from the main three. The question can be asked. What are they preserving?
There is another race called the Ancients and at the time of FS, long extinct.
The Ancients at their prime destroyed many other budding civilizations and worlds, and might have even destroyed Earth and Vasuda Prime before the Terrans and Vasudans reached space. By destroying the Ancients, the Shivans in a sense saves budding civilizations from one race that will dominate the entire galaxy.
Yeah. I like the concept the Shivans may have been engineered by another species to create eternal balance, or something similar to the Cylons in BSG (don't worry, I won't elaborate). Also, Bosch makes an analogy between our existence and the cities of Troy, each building upon the civilisation before it. So it's suggested that possibly we are part of some kind of universal cycle. But as Alpha 1 makes clear at the end of FS1, the presence of Shivans was necessary. Without the presence of the Shivans, the Ancients would've been annihalated in their infancy, the same goes for Humans and Vasudans. Oh and the Ancients narrator says the Ancients annihalated species after species, sometime enslaving them.
But doesn't it seem like that they are not really preserving these civilizations but rather delaying their destruction?
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Regarding the comparison of the Lucifer and the Sathanas fleet, I'll just quote the game box.
Although, on the outskirts of the Gamma Draconis System, your most feared nemesis has returned and they are wondering what happened to their scouting party...
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Yeah, but in the cases we know of (Ancients and the Great War), there's been something to trigger them. I think was it ST:R that said GTI provoked them at Ross 128? The Ancient monologues also state after a universe-wide path of destruction they encountered the Shivans. One hypothesis I heard a while ago here is that maybe the Shivans are attracted to violence or something? A 14-15 year war ought to result in something, and universe-wide destruction explains itself. I do see your point though, if I'm right, they're logic is flawed.
Regarding the comparison of the Lucifer and the Sathanas fleet, I'll just quote the game box.
Although, on the outskirts of the Gamma Draconis System, your most feared nemesis has returned and they are wondering what happened to their scouting party...
Jesus.... wow, I never knew about that (to be fair I never owned the box anyway).
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It was ST:R that said that. It wasn't canon to the original ST.
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Yeah, it's a hypothesis from this standpoint.
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An optimistic projection, but the writing betrays hubris:
"With the Colossus, we have nothing more to fear."
"...securing peace in our time, and for generations to come."
"...having proven once and for all our technological and tactical superiority over our Great War enemies."
Those words always sounded weirdly out of place to me. Like propaganda, but who's the target?
I think :v: just overdid the hype a bit.
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Well, my comment is a bit different in nature but I don't want to create a new topic for that:
My problem is the sheer existence of the Colossus.
Why? Why did the GTVA waste such an amount of resources on a ship like that (apart of storytelling purposes) if we consider that a bunch of bombers were capable of destroying that goddamn Lucy?
Imagine:
scenario A: Lucy 2 arrives, bombers sent, destroy it in the first jump. One node off the list, might be one obliterated planet.
scenario B: Lucy 2 arrives, the Colly finally finds it after a while and destroys it with a terrible cost to its hull. At least one obliterated planet and a waste of 20 years work (or at least a goddamn lot of funds) as a result.
If I would've been the GTVA, I would've spent all that money and resources on trying to develop something like the Knossos. I guess that 20 years of work would've been enough ^^
Note that I am not against the fleet modernization at all. I just don't like the idea of all that wasted resources on the Colly. If I were Shivan, I would've definitely chosen 80000 Demons over 80 Sathanii.
(Note that SD Demon + SD Demon = SSD Orb)
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Well, 80 Sathanases can cause a supernova. I don't think 80000 Demons can do that.
As for the Colossus, they don't want to lose another jump node - ships can be rebuilt, as far as the GTVA know, jump nodes can't.
I wouldn't risk cutting off everything beyond Laramis. I'd much rather sacrifice a ship that took 20 years to build. And why would using the Colossus ensure one obliterated planet? It takes 13 hours to bombard a planet. I'm pretty sure the Colossus can kill a Lucifer much more quickly than that. It can probably intercept the Lucifer so it can't bombard the planet anyway. There is no reason why it would take that long for the Colossus to respond. I'm pretty sure that it can cross GTVA space in a few hours (15 minutes per jump, probably less judging from how fast the NTC Napoleon leaves the Regulus node in Rebel Intercept (INSTAJUMP)). Your scenarios are inherently flawed - it should be (assuming success):
1. Bombers attack the Lucifer in a Node.
Best case scenario: One unimportant node gone, no way to replace.
Worst case scenario: One critical node gone, large part of GTVA space cut off permanently. GONE. FOREVER. Say goodbye to 2 billion citizens, four star systems, 6 installations, 4 full fleets, 2 shipyards, everything. Gone. Forever.
2. Colossus.
Best case scenario: Minimal damage to Colossus.
Worst case scenario: Heavy damage to Colossus. (Major repairs or scrap). Even if the Colly bites the dust, it's just going to be at most 20 years for another one. By that time you'd probably have better technology and can make better ones, and build them faster.
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I guess the Colossus was the GTVA's equivalent of the Apollo Program. A massive, state-funded effort into R&D, industrial development and sheer propaganda value. Getting a warship out of the deal is just an added bonus.
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More like the Manhattan Project. Yes there are other ways to achieve the same objective but as Droid803 pointed out the cost of trying them could easily be worse. Better to have the Colossus and find you don't need it than to not have it and really wish you did.
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But the Lucifer had them. It was the only ship though and a FS1 campaign called Black Horizons put a couple of those same beams on a Fenris.
The FS1 Lucifer had the Shivan Super Laser (SSL). For some reason FS2 replaced those with beams, and FSPort replaced those with a beam that looked like the SSL.
Edit: oops, I thought that was the last page
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The idea of putting a substantial amount of the GTVA's resources into the Colossus just doesn't make sense. Just the size alone gives it the disadvantage of being an easier target to hit. It would be less maneuverable in combat and easier to disable make it more susceptible to bomber attacks. The loss of a ship of that size would deal a more damaging blow then losing multiple smaller destroyers. Especially since it would take 20 years just to construct a replacement. Another issue with the Colossus is its firepower. When attacking an individual ship it could deliver, at most, the firepower equal to that of 2.5 Orions if they could position the ship in the right location. For those of you wondering, the number 2.5 is not a mistake since only the guns on one side of the ship can attack an individual ship. If the target is directly in front of the ship or at one of its many blind spots, then it can only deliver the firepower of possibly one or two Orions. Compare this with 5 individual Orions that can swarm an enemy ship and engage it with a half their guns every time guaranteeing the full 2.5. In addition, the Colossus also suffers from the fact that it cannot deploy fighters to protect its entire surface area as quickly as a destroyer could.
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Well, the Colossus does have pretty decent anti-fighter coverage though.
Plus, it's turrets are a lot better armored than the turrets of five Orions combined, and it has twice as much health as five Orions.
Case an point : The Sathanas could (over)kill 2 out of five Orions in its opening volley, taking out 40% of your firepower right there. That same volley would lower the Colossus's HP 32%, while pretty much not harming the Colly's firepower output much at all.
Even if an Orion gets behind the Sathanas, note that the Sathanas can moon an Orion to death pretty quickly.
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Yeah, exactly: those five Orions are going to attrit pretty fast.
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But remember, the Sathanas could only use its 4 "very big red beams" on targets near the front. Certain parts of the Sathanas were still open to attack, and the 4 main beams could have been taken out quite rapidly either by very well placed beams or bombers on board the Orions. But the problem still remains with the resource amounts. The resources in one Colossus could have built a lot more than just 5 Orions. This was probably why, in the campaign, Command used destroyers as fodder, as much as they did, when assaulting the sathanas.
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You have what-if syndrome.
The Sathanas can turn. It can jump. Those 4 main beams are not easily disabled without Helii, especially given the Sath's fighter cover.
The Colossus is not designed to fight Sathani. It is designed to successfully engage and destroy a Lucifer (or so we like to think.) The Orion is not good at this, five Orions would probably not be better at it, and in any case, when are you ever going to put five Orions in the same place?
These debates seem to come up every year and they're always inconclusive.
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The Colossus is not designed to fight Sathani. It is designed to successfully engage and destroy a Lucifer (or so we like to think.) The Orion is not good at this, five Orions would probably not be better at it, and in any case, when are you ever going to put five Orions in the same place?
Lol. Three words and three letters. Battle of Endor FTW!
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I don't really see the GTVA using destroyers as cannon fodder. It's more like the NTF do that (look at Rebel Intercept).
GTVA Command never actually deployed a destroyer against the Sathanas. The Psamtik got taken out by a Sathanas they didn't know existed.
The Colossus's selling point was not only that it had enough firepower to destroy a Lucifer, but to be able to withstand multiple hits from a Lucifer's Shivan Super Lasers. Orions get smashed pretty quickly when put in the way of SSLs. (You don't really want to lose 1 or 2 Orions out of 6 when assaulting something. Preferably you want to send something that can take the damage and live to tell the tale).
Bottom line is, I think that the Colossus wasn't a complete waste of resources and time given what the GTVA knew at the time. It proved its worth pretty well smashing the NTF, and even holding up against something it was never designed to combat. Sure, if they knew what was coming, they could have probably come up with something better. But they didn't - noone can see the future, so to me, it makes sense. They wanted some sort of insurance in case another Lucifer showed up. Something they could rely on.
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GTVA Command never actually deployed a destroyer against the Sathanas.
*cough* Phonecia *cough* :p
I completely agree with you, though. We've all seen how quickly the Galatea's hull integrity fell from 100% to zilch when staring down the Lucifer. Going by the statistics listed in the wiki, without the "shields" (read: invulnerability), the Lucifer has eight times the hull integrity of a single Orion. Even with four or five Orions attacking at once, the Lucifer would still most likely come out on top. In contrast, pitting the Colossus against the Lucifer results in a relatively easy victory for the former in almost every scenario. The GTVA wanted a guaranteed Lucifer-killer, something that wouldn't put any of their forces at risk, and the Colossus gave them just that.
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Colossus was built to fight The Great War. You gotta keep that in mind. It would have excelled in that war too, not even the Lucy could have stood against Colossus.
Colossus was a good ship. She terminated the NTF Rebellion single handed, don't forget that part. She was also able to destroy the Sathanas juggernaut, wasn't her fault there were freaking eighty more of them...
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The Shivans are trying to combat entropy. ;)
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The idea of putting a substantial amount of the GTVA's resources into the Colossus just doesn't make sense. Just the size alone gives it the disadvantage of being an easier target to hit. It would be less maneuverable in combat and easier to disable make it more susceptible to bomber attacks. The loss of a ship of that size would deal a more damaging blow then losing multiple smaller destroyers. Especially since it would take 20 years just to construct a replacement. Another issue with the Colossus is its firepower. When attacking an individual ship it could deliver, at most, the firepower equal to that of 2.5 Orions if they could position the ship in the right location. For those of you wondering, the number 2.5 is not a mistake since only the guns on one side of the ship can attack an individual ship. If the target is directly in front of the ship or at one of its many blind spots, then it can only deliver the firepower of possibly one or two Orions. Compare this with 5 individual Orions that can swarm an enemy ship and engage it with a half their guns every time guaranteeing the full 2.5. In addition, the Colossus also suffers from the fact that it cannot deploy fighters to protect its entire surface area as quickly as a destroyer could.
Why fight when you can win the battle before it is even fought? The Colossus has the power to end a battle before it begins simply by its mention. Admittedly, this doesn't work against the Shivans, but against other threats that pop up within an organization, I.E. NTF, Pirates, its a weapon of propoganda as mentioned before, and a weapon of politics. An Orion cannot do that, neither can 5 orions.
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The Colossus has the power to end a battle before it begins simply by its mention. Admittedly, this doesn't work against the Shivans, but against other threats that pop up within an organization, I.E. NTF, Pirates, its a weapon of propoganda as mentioned before, and a weapon of politics. An Orion cannot do that, neither can 5 orions.
That's an excellent point; not all wars are settled by brute force but also politics and diplomacy.
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The GTVA couldn't count with an open rebellion while building the ship.
I'd like to note as a side note to nodes that most of the systems are connected with more than one node to the others so I can hardly call anything an "important node" (can't recall the star map properly of course)
I would've used all those resources what were used on the Colly... to develop fighter-equippable beams.
(I know its overkill and impossible since this is a game designed to have some challenge, but as a sober human being I would've surely went on developing that.
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Colossus was built to fight The Great War. You gotta keep that in mind. It would have excelled in that war too, not even the Lucy could have stood against Colossus.
Colossus was a good ship. She terminated the NTF Rebellion single handed, don't forget that part. She was also able to destroy the Sathanas juggernaut, wasn't her fault there were freaking eighty more of them...
This. It did what it was meant to do just fine.
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The GTVA couldn't count with an open rebellion while building the ship.
The Colossus was about 18 years in construction by the time the NTF Rebellion started. Also, it should be noted that the Terran colonies' economy was heavily devastated at that time so large scale warzones were negligible.
I'd like to note as a side note to nodes that most of the systems are connected with more than one node to the others so I can hardly call anything an "important node" (can't recall the star map properly of course)
Although the official :v: starmap doesn't show all a system's nodes, fully stable nodes such as the Delta Serpentis-Sol node is hard to come by. Losing one would be devastating. Other nodes are usually very unstable and usually collapse rapidly.
I would've used all those resources what were used on the Colly... to develop fighter-equippable beams.
(I know its overkill and impossible since this is a game designed to have some challenge, but as a sober human being I would've surely went on developing that.
The Colossus was more than a juggernaut designed for killing a second Lucifer. It was the symbol of unity between the Vasudans and the Terrans, and as jkalltheway said, could be used as a political point.
Fighters equipped with beams could not provide that, and perhaps the fighter-beam technology could be stolen, losing a powerful advantage over any possible enemy. The Colossus however, would always be part of the GTVA.
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No because if the Colossus existed back then, it would have no beam tech, but I guess they can pierce Lucifer shields, hopefully, since beams pierce fighter shields (bypass them completely) and damage hulls. Secondly, the Lucifer would badly damage the Colossus with its 2 forward beams if they are the same as they are in FS2; a very short delay between rounds and seemingly longer lasting volleys with each round while Terran beams are weaker and take longer to recharge. I assume that the SSL laser is meant to be the Lucifer's beams in FS2 but the graphics in FS1 weren't good enough to make them like that at the time.
The Colossus was designed to defeat a second Lucifer if a Shivan fleet similar to that in the 1st Shivan Incursion were present.
As weird as this seems, the canon FS2 beam loadout for the Lucifer are 2 SReds. In Derelict, the Lucifer there had it's beam firepower buffed immensely.
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Well, I forgot to add my main point... it was morning and pre-school run :)
The fact that there is NO CANON EVIDENCE that beams are actually capable of piercing those special Lucy shields.
Imagine that Lucy 2 shows up and it turns out that the Colly is unable to penetrate its shields... :P
So, if we consider that (apart the political and etc. reasons) the whole point of the ship was based upon an assumption... well... :shaking:
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Yes, but with 12 beam cannons, what survives against that? :P You're right though IMO.
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Well, I forgot to add my main point... it was morning and pre-school run :)
The fact that there is NO CANON EVIDENCE that beams are actually capable of piercing those special Lucy shields.
Imagine that Lucy 2 shows up and it turns out that the Colly is unable to penetrate its shields... :P
So, if we consider that (apart the political and etc. reasons) the whole point of the ship was based upon an assumption... well... :shaking:
Well, there's no canon evidence the Lucy shields were in an any way special, either - maybe they just had a lot of big reactors powering them.
So it's all supposition either way.
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I think he means Bosch.
I'm pretty sure it's kappa 3 :lol:
I think he means Bosch. :lol:
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By the way, I wonder if anyone can estimate the actual number of Terran and Vasudan warships and capships (destroyers, freighters, other types, number of each class, etc). Too bad Volition never gave us canonical mention of that.
People often write themselves into corners when they go down this road. Its usually best to leave things vague.
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Well, I forgot to add my main point... it was morning and pre-school run :)
The fact that there is NO CANON EVIDENCE that beams are actually capable of piercing those special Lucy shields.
Imagine that Lucy 2 shows up and it turns out that the Colly is unable to penetrate its shields... :P
So, if we consider that (apart the political and etc. reasons) the whole point of the ship was based upon an assumption... well... :shaking:
Well, there's no canon evidence the Lucy shields were in an any way special, either - maybe they just had a lot of big reactors powering them.
So it's all supposition either way.
Everyone manages to forget that the Lucy had different shields than the one the Shivans had on their fighters? Simple logic: we can penetrate the shield on the fighters with our primaries, but not the other one (and yes, I realize that it was no more than a mere invulnerabity flag in FRED, but canonically it has a shield and it IS different than the fighter ones). So they had to be special.
The thing what the GTVA had to state is: "We cannot be sure whether beams are capable of surpassing the Lucifer's shields."
In this case, the Colly might have been unable to act in its main role, what, if you ask me, is way too great risk at a ship built for 20 years.
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Well, I forgot to add my main point... it was morning and pre-school run :)
The fact that there is NO CANON EVIDENCE that beams are actually capable of piercing those special Lucy shields.
Imagine that Lucy 2 shows up and it turns out that the Colly is unable to penetrate its shields... :P
So, if we consider that (apart the political and etc. reasons) the whole point of the ship was based upon an assumption... well... :shaking:
Well, there's no canon evidence the Lucy shields were in an any way special, either - maybe they just had a lot of big reactors powering them.
So it's all supposition either way.
Everyone manages to forget that the Lucy had different shields than the one the Shivans had on their fighters? Simple logic: we can penetrate the shield on the fighters with our primaries, but not the other one (and yes, I realize that it was no more than a mere invulnerabity flag in FRED, but canonically it has a shield and it IS different than the fighter ones). So they had to be special.
The thing what the GTVA had to state is: "We cannot be sure whether beams are capable of surpassing the Lucifer's shields."
In this case, the Colly might have been unable to act in its main role, what, if you ask me, is way too great risk at a ship built for 20 years.
All fanwank. It's just as possible that the Lucy shields worked just like fighter shields but with a ton of really big reactors powering them.
Whatever works for your campaign is fair game.
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The thing what the GTVA had to state is: "We cannot be sure whether beams are capable of surpassing the Lucifer's shields."
In this case, the Colly might have been unable to act in its main role, what, if you ask me, is way too great risk at a ship built for 20 years.
Since we're all providing suppositions of various sorts, I've always operated under the supposition that GTVA Command is at least intelligent enough to not invest twenty years and myriad resources into a massive project like the Colossus without being just about certain that it would be capable of defeating its primary target. :p The GTVA had detailed scans of the Lucifer's internal systems from "Playing Judas" (and other similar efforts, most likely), so they had to have a good idea of its mechanics and overall power output. Also note that the FS2 tech room states that the Lucifer's shields were "impenetrable to all weapons at the time," which would seem to indicate that this is thought to no longer be the case. Whether or not the Colossus's main beam cannons would penetrate the Lucifer's shields without being affected at all may be up for debate, but I feel fairly certain that they would have done a significant level of damage even in the worst case.
As for the Lucifer's armaments in FS2, I've always assumed that those SReds were just a matter of someone at :v: sticking some beam cannons on the model, since the ship never appeared in the retail campaign anyway. To have any sort of accurate match-up between the Lucifer and Colossus, I think you have to go back to the Shivan Super Lasers, or the equivalent SSLBeams that the FSPort developed.
And as for fighter-equipped beams...if you could tell the GTVA how a fighter-size reactor would be able to power a beam stronger than a weak AAA, or how such a beam and its heatsinks could be made small and light enough to practically mount on a fighter, I'm sure they'd love to hear it. :p
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I'd still say that it can't be sure... and I hope that you agree. THEY - CAN'T - BE - SURE.
I'd just catch up with the in-subspace killing and developing a way of node-reopening. All that resources should've been spent on that instead of a big bad baseball bat.
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I think they probably were sure, actually.
It's just that WE can't be sure.
But Mongoose has provided good evidence to convince me that GTVA command was sure.
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All fanwank. It's just as possible that the Lucy shields worked just like fighter shields but with a ton of really big reactors powering them.
Whatever works for your campaign is fair game.
Well, it does say "Impervious, not merely resistant" in a Command Briefing of FS1.
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Well, a tank is impervious to rock attack, and heck, even fighter shields are 'impervious' to bomb shockwaves (right...? or just resistant?)
If you catch my drift.
In any case, the shield-piercing mechanism occurs regardless of the strength of the target shield, from what we know.
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I think they probably were sure, actually.
It's just that WE can't be sure.
But Mongoose has provided good evidence to convince me that GTVA command was sure.
Precisely. We're never provided the reasons as to why Command is sure that the Colossus could take on a Lucifer-class vessel, but because they are sure, said reasons must exist.
And until the discovery of the Knossos portal, the GTVA had no way of knowing that it was even possible to re-open a collapsed node, much less knowing how it could be accomplished. The Ancients were incredibly advanced in the realm of subspace technology, far beyond what the Terrans and Vasudans were able to achieve previously. For all that Terrans knew, Earth was gone for good, and the same fate would befall any other forcibly-collapsed node in the future. Even with the discovery and study of the Knossos portal in Gamma Draconis, I'd be willing to bet that it could take several years, if not a few decades, before the GTVA would be able to successfully reverse-engineer, design, and construct a variant of their own to re-open the node to Sol, and it wouldn't surprise me if said project wound up costing more than the Colossus did.
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Yeah, it's not enough to pass judgment based on a simple ambiguous statement like that. We just don't know. It's could go either way, so it gives us more freedom.
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Maybe past that binary system is the Shivan homeworld. Maybe they kill any race that's too close. To answer the obvious question, they first evaluate each race to see whether they are a threat/can be made into slaves/whatever. Apparently we failed the test.
That's mostly based on the similarity between the GTVA and the Ancients.
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I'm actually inclined to like Darius' suggestion that Shivan behavior towards the Terrans changed after FS1 because Terrans and Vasudans were able to coexist peacefully. Unlike the Ancients, neither Terran nor Vasudan insisted on xenocide and monospecies supremacy.
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I'm actually inclined to like Darius' suggestion that Shivan behavior towards the Terrans changed after FS1 because Terrans and Vasudans were able to coexist peacefully. Unlike the Ancients, neither Terran nor Vasudan insisted on xenocide and monospecies supremacy.
Hmm. I've always thought that the Shivans have some hidden agenda and that the Terrans and Vasudans have just gotten in the way.
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That is, of course, an equally valid and potentially interesting suggestion.
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All right, you have convinced me.
A final note:
Would it be possible to disable and disarm a Lucy in subspace and then tow it out, thus saving the node? Yup, I just play Derellict :)
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What would you use to tow a cruiser? Something large I presume.
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I think he means Bosch.
I'm pretty sure it's kappa 3 :lol:
I think he means Bosch. :lol:
Kappa 3 or bust!
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I noticed this thread has derailed a bit (but not in a bad way) from differences between the Lucifer and the Sathanas fleet to shivan agenda and tactics differences between FS1 and FS2.
But I would like to bring up an unmentioned aspect of the differences between the Lucifer and a Sathanas: Simply their looks and associated psychological effects.
In my opinion the Lucifer is very unique and menacing in design. The image of those two 'antennae' on it's bow, and those glowing spots on either side of it's 'head' giving an eerie feel of eyes, will NEVER leave me. The Lucifer, in my eyes, is the ultimate evil being; unstoppable, and immensely powerful.
The Sathanas, on the other hand, was boring, and uninspired in design. A big bulky body with four big spikes protruding from it. The Sathanas is portrayed as far more powerful than it looks, the Sathanas does not scare me. A cain scares me more. Also, the fact they had several dozen of them, while can be construed as a a kind of massive unstoppable fleet, comes off to me as making them mass-produced and expendable.
There's only one Lucifer, and it will always be more badass than the Sathanas in my opinion.
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Did you play FS1 first? I have this theory that the order you played them in makes a big difference.
I always thought the Sathanas was far more interesting and menacing.
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Did you play FS1 first? I have this theory that the order you played them in makes a big difference.
I always thought the Sathanas was far more interesting and menacing.
*Sigh* Yes, I played FS1 first, which probably contributes to my feeling, but all of my points still stand.
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Also, Lucifer is a much more easily recognised name than Sathanas, so the whole idea of a ship named after the 'Ugly Red Source of All Evil' immediately invokes a response, particularly in those who have had a Christianity-based upbringing.
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Did you play FS1 first? I have this theory that the order you played them in makes a big difference.
I always thought the Sathanas was far more interesting and menacing.
*Sigh* Yes, I played FS1 first, which probably contributes to my feeling, but all of my points still stand.
I'm not saying your perceptions are any more or less valid - clearly we can have differing opinions on the topic.
I just theorize that play order affected our perception of which supership was more badass.
The Sathanas is very interesting to me as a deconstruction of the supership trope, too.
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One key difference in the two games was that the Shivans were seem to be a bigger threat to the GTA and PVN in FS1 from their initial appearance all the way to the end. There was no real sigh of relief in the game, even when the avenger cannon proved that it was affective against Shivan shield tech and when shields systems were first implemented on GTA and PVN fighters, the Shivan threat only seemed to grow as they rapidly made their way to Sol. Accomplishments that would have been miraculous under different circumstances were only marginally acknowledged during a bloody conflict. Compare this with FS2 where there were several occasions when the GTVA felt capable of handling the Shivan threat. The destruction of the Ravana was celebrated by the alliance and so was the destruction of the first Sathanas. It was not until near the end of the game that the scope of the Shivan threat was finally realized.
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I'm actually inclined to like Darius' suggestion that Shivan behavior towards the Terrans changed after FS1 because Terrans and Vasudans were able to coexist peacefully. Unlike the Ancients, neither Terran nor Vasudan insisted on xenocide and monospecies supremacy.
I've always been of the opinion that it probably doesn't matter; we are not even sure the Shivans actually distingush between Terrans and Vasudans as seperate species.
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That's an equally valid supposition, with interesting consequences and possibilities for development.
Although the fact that the Lucifer first targeted Vasuda Prime and then Earth probably suggests it can tell the two apart (unless it happened to just analyze and head for what appeared to be the two main strategic centers.)
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I've always been of the opinion that it probably doesn't matter; we are not even sure the Shivans actually distingush between Terrans and Vasudans as seperate species.
Are you talking about distinguishing between each species based on their societies or physiologically? Terrans and Vasudans employed different strategies in combat and had very different social structures. Also, they must have noticed a difference in the ship appearances since the Vasudans had very "earthy" look to their ship. Compared with the Terran vessels were sometimes colored oddly, well, primarily the Orion. Physiologically they looked very similar since they were both bipedal with two arms and a single head.
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Are you talking about distinguishing between each species based on their societies or physiologically? Terrans and Vasudans employed different strategies in combat and had very different social structures. Also, they must have noticed a difference in the ship appearances since the Vasudans had very "earthy" look to their ship. Compared with the Terran vessels were sometimes colored oddly, well, primarily the Orion. Physiologically they looked very similar since they were both bipedal with two arms and a single head.
We don't know any Shivans ever encountered a Vasudan or a Terran face-to-face and lived to tell. We similarly don't know the Shivans even would bother with such distingushing, or care, and the difference in shiptypes is not necessarily a difference in species. Otherwise the Pegasus is evidence of a seperate species. The employment of seperate strategies similarly proves nothing. The Shivans almost certainly didn't do enough deep background intel work to get involved with societal and social stuff.
Given Shivan behavior as we've seen it so far, in FS1 and FS2, they would appear to have no use for such a distinction or concept. Simply "the enemy" is good enough.
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Hmm...I'm having a hard time believing that a species as advanced Shivans wouldn't notice a difference between the two species. I can agree that they probably don't care and just go for either. Or they may use the same exact strategy when attacking either species to remove any weakness in combat that a preference in selection would cause.
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I'm pretty sure they attacked Vasuda first, because it was just closer from where they entered: Ross 128
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Now that I think about it, they must have been able to distinguish Terrans from Vasudans. If they are able to distinguish a fighter from a bomber, a cruiser from a destroyer, and a fast ship from a slow ship, then they must have been able to tell the difference between the two species. Unless they were incapable of remembering these differences and adapted extremely quickly in combat every time they entered, which would make planning attacks almost impossible, then they must have a way of telling a Terran apart from a Vasudan. It was probably beneficial to them from a strategic standpoint that they didn't.
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I'm pretty sure they attacked Vasuda first, because it was just closer from where they entered: Ross 128
Actually no, Sol is closer. Check your local information terminal for a nodemap.
To get to Vasuda from Ross 128, you must first go through Delta Serpentis. Which is one jump from Sol.
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I didn't really care to look at the node map before but that's really weird. They entered at Ross 128 and seemed to skip around the place, quite carefully to avoid detection, and pop their heads out Antares, or where ever it was, for some odd reason.
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Are you talking about distinguishing between each species based on their societies or physiologically? Terrans and Vasudans employed different strategies in combat and had very different social structures. Also, they must have noticed a difference in the ship appearances since the Vasudans had very "earthy" look to their ship. Compared with the Terran vessels were sometimes colored oddly, well, primarily the Orion. Physiologically they looked very similar since they were both bipedal with two arms and a single head.
We don't know any Shivans ever encountered a Vasudan or a Terran face-to-face and lived to tell. We similarly don't know the Shivans even would bother with such distingushing, or care, and the difference in shiptypes is not necessarily a difference in species. Otherwise the Pegasus is evidence of a seperate species. The employment of seperate strategies similarly proves nothing. The Shivans almost certainly didn't do enough deep background intel work to get involved with societal and social stuff.
Given Shivan behavior as we've seen it so far, in FS1 and FS2, they would appear to have no use for such a distinction or concept. Simply "the enemy" is good enough.
I'm still not sure this can account for the specific targeting of Vasuda Prime and Earth unless they also popped up as the major strategic hubs on some Shivan analysis...in which case it does pretty much account for it.
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In the opening battles involving the Shivans, CB often reported that Shivan forces were intent on securing subspace nodes rather than actual planets.
Probably their special targeting of Earth and Vasuda Prime was to destroy the heart of their two enemies.
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Right, but that suggest they recognize two distinct enemies.
I do think it could be argued that they don't, they just recognize the key strategic centers.
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I'm a FreeSpace conservative.
I really agree with General Battuta on this one. The order in which you play the games is a really big factor in which you like best. Both are excellent, but I'll always like FS1 better (because I played it first).
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or the equivalent SSLBeams that the FSPort developed
Small nitpick: the SSLBeams were created by Sesquipedalian for the Scroll of Atankharzim. We were able to use them because Galemp and I were on both the Scroll and Port teams. :)
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A bit offtopic but I don't want to open a new topic nor necro my old FS1 vs. FS2 topic.
Someone stated that there is a much deeper feeling of hopelessness in FS2.
I replayed FS1 not so long ago.
1) Remember when Command panically screams in the last mission: "You have three minutes to go! Please!"
In Apocalypse, Command continously banged you.
2) Just check out the soundtracks.
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I agree that there seems to be more hopelessness in FS2. However the storyline is a lot different. When you are against an almost unstoppable force, there's not a whole lot that you can do. And since that's part of the FS2 storyline, of course it's going to seem atleast a little hopeless.
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I agree that there seems to be more hopelessness in FS2. However the storyline is a lot different. When you are against an almost unstoppable force, there's not a whole lot that you can do. And since that's part of the FS2 storyline, of course it's going to seem atleast a little hopeless.
I've managed to f**k up my post. I clearly meant that FS1 has a greater sense of hopelessness.
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I think that's a tough argument to make. In FS1 you always had a fighting chance.
What's more, FS1 was kind of...thin. You didn't get the kind of day-to-day updates on operational details that you had in FS2. There were a lot more holes in the narratives (references to missions that never happened, storylines that never really went anywhere) and it just generally didn't feel as textured.
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I think that's a tough argument to make. In FS1 you always had a fighting chance.
What's more, FS1 was kind of...thin. You didn't get the kind of day-to-day updates on operational details that you had in FS2. There were a lot more holes in the narratives (references to missions that never happened, storylines that never really went anywhere) and it just generally didn't feel as textured.
I just hated the GTVA's arrogance.
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I think that's a tough argument to make. In FS1 you always had a fighting chance.
What's more, FS1 was kind of...thin. You didn't get the kind of day-to-day updates on operational details that you had in FS2. There were a lot more holes in the narratives (references to missions that never happened, storylines that never really went anywhere) and it just generally didn't feel as textured.
I just hated the GTVA's arrogance.
I refer you to NGTM-1R's well-reasoned posts earlier in this thread, then.
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It's probably already been commented on (and completely off topic) but I always saw the games and the GTVA behaving like this.
FS1: is reminiscent of WW1 for obvious reasons, the phrase "Great War", the feeling of it being a pointless and unnecessary war (the V-T war) and the obvious aftermath lead to yet more bloodshed (the NTF could represent a broken Germany). Flying in FS1 makes me think of Spitfires getting up behind bombers and letting rip. Technology isn't the best it could be and things like ACES flying the skies.
FS2: is WW2. A war involving atrocities against civilians (the NTF uprising) a war built out of a previous war. It's less about great pushes and going over-the-top and more about technological edges.
The end of FS2 makes me think of the modern age, where the Aries and the Trebuchet represent modern fighter jets, expensive technology and weapons that can end a fight in one shot, over massive distances.
BACK ON TOPIC: The Sathanas always impressed me more then the Lucifer, because I played FS2 first. I remember the first time I played the game, and I couldn't fathom how the GTVA would survive. I mean, i really didn't see there being any hope of survival. That hopelessness is something i love about the game, theres no plucky humans saving the day. Everythings out of our control
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Flying in FS1 makes me think of Spitfires getting up behind bombers and letting rip. Technology isn't the best it could be and things like ACES flying the skies.
The Supermarine Spitfire was in WWII.
Anyways, with more and more posts going up, it seems that order really does matter. I remembering playing 1998 and thinking it was amazing. Then when I got my hands on FS2 I was blown away by the enveloping story. However, I felt that the ending to FS1 was better.
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The Supermarine Spitfire was in WWII.
*slaps face* of course they were! I guess that analogy wouldn't work. Why does history always take a beaten when im around.
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In FS1, when you first start encountering the Shivans, there's less sense of hopelessness, and more of shock. As you start getting the targeting, better weapons, and shields, that shock starts to wear off, replaced by a sense that victory is now attainable. With capture of the Taranis, there's this feeling like you've turned a corner, and you'll soon be able to turn the tables and push the Shivans out. Then comes the Lucifer. From that point on, you can just feel the sense of hopelessness build, as the Shivans seem to be closing from all directions, with the unstoppable Lucifer leading the charge, showing up where no-one expects. The loss of the Galatea and the fall of Vasuda Prime starts the snowballing of that sense, as everything is in shambles and Command seems to be scrambling to form a pretense of a defensive strategy. Then, comes the Ancients find and a glimmer of hope, but with the clock ticking you get the real feeling of desperation, culminating in the final attack on the Lucifer on the final jump to Earth. Quite the epic.
In FS2, there's the brief feeling of apprehension. The last time the Shivans were encountered, they nearly exterminated the Human and Vasudan races, and the T-V Alliance managed to stop that threat by a finger-nail hold. This quickly dissipates after "Lion at the Gate", when the Shivans are dealt with fairly quickly by GTVA fighters and warships. After that, we're entering into Shivan space, so there's the feeling like we can do more than just hold them off, we can drive them back. There's still the concern about what size of fleet the Shivans may be able to deploy so Command keeps the options of closing the node or evacuating Capella and sealing off the nodes out. This is followed by an emotional roller coaster of "crap, what did we get ourselves into" and "whew... man, we really beat them off. I guess we got what it takes after all". Of course, once more Saths start to show up, its an obvious "OK, we're boned" attitude. This is tempered by the knowledge that Command plans to block the Shivan expansion, by sealing the nodes, so we're back to the "if we can just hold on a little longer" situation. Once the Bastion mission is successful, its a desperate race to get everyone out before the Shivans slaughter them all. Throughout that, is the fear of the unknown, as to what the Shivans are doing with the Capellean sun.
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And then there's the end cutscene, which actually scared me a little. Basically like Oooooooooohhhh ****, this can't end well...
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(references to missions that never happened, storylines that never really went anywhere)
'splain please? :confused:
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The mission after you fly the Dragon, it's referenced in one of the briefings afterwards that you scanned a ship there that you didn't actually scan (the Demon I think). The Ancients storyline wasn't very... involving, the fact they recovered intel from the Ancients' felt thin to me.
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As much as I enjoyed FS1 it did feel relatively dry when compared to FS2. The briefings in FS1 contained very little information that contributed to the understanding of the story. It took multiple replays to understand what was really going on; not because the game contained very subtle information but rather that information was obscure and had to be repeatedly consolidated while playing the game.
When I played FS2, I was immediately aware of the plot and the story of the game. FS2 was extremely saturated with information pertaining to the events occurring in game and to the past events that occurred between game. Just to get an idea of what I'm saying, I suggest that the contents of the tech rooms from each game be examined for information content, mainly the intelligence section.
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As much as I enjoyed FS1 it did feel relatively dry when compared to FS2. The briefings in FS1 contained very little information that contributed to the understanding of the story.
Very much agreed on that part. Freespace 2 really was improving everything quite radically - not just graphics and tech wise, but especially story and mission design wise.
FS1 really only becomes great, when you see it in the context of Freespace 2... kinda like a prequel. It gives other bits and pieces including the quite nicely done "ballad of the ancients".
But as far as its own story and especially mission design go, FS1 is quite rudimentary... which as far as missions go might have something to do with the capabilities of PCs at the time as well.
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Yeah, especially the Battle of Deneb, they could've made it a lot more "epic" by just aiming a little higher PC-wise, but then it wouldn't have appealed to as wide a fanbase, so it's a good trade-off.
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And suddenly the thread veers off into blasphemy! :hopping:
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Welcome to HLP.
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Welcome to HLP.
Agreed.
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Yeah, especially the Battle of Deneb, they could've made it a lot more "epic" by just aiming a little higher PC-wise, but then it wouldn't have appealed to as wide a fanbase, so it's a good trade-off.
Has anyone remade the Battle of Deneb yet? Sort of in the tradition of High Noon 2.0...
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(references to missions that never happened, storylines that never really went anywhere)
'splain please? :confused:
What Dilmah pointed out, and 'your investigation of the Lucifer in Antares', correct?
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Yeah, especially the Battle of Deneb, they could've made it a lot more "epic" by just aiming a little higher PC-wise, but then it wouldn't have appealed to as wide a fanbase, so it's a good trade-off.
Has anyone remade the Battle of Deneb yet? Sort of in the tradition of High Noon 2.0...
Coincidentally that falls under my scope of operations. It's going in my brainstorm document. It'd be pretty interesting actually, having a fully fledged battle like that.
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The mission after you fly the Dragon, it's referenced in one of the briefings afterwards that you scanned a ship there that you didn't actually scan (the Demon I think).
True. But, to give :v: the benefit of the doubt, the Eva in sm2-06a was originally supposed to be the Lucifer.
The Ancients storyline wasn't very... involving, the fact they recovered intel from the Ancients' felt thin to me.
Yeah, I can see that. Also to give :v: the benefit of the doubt, there were originally supposed to be "several missions" involving recovering that intel. Although maybe Reaching the Zenith / Running the Gauntlet / Black Omega was the extent of it.
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I really agree with General Battuta on this one. The order in which you play the games is a really big factor in which you like best. Both are excellent, but I'll always like FS1 better (because I played it first).
I played and replayed FS1 for a few years before finally getting my hands on FS2, yet I decidedly prefer the latter. So meh. :p
or the equivalent SSLBeams that the FSPort developed
Small nitpick: the SSLBeams were created by Sesquipedalian for the Scroll of Atankharzim. We were able to use them because Galemp and I were on both the Scroll and Port teams. :)
Ah, good to know. :)
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I played and replayed FS1 for a few years before finally getting my hands on FS2, yet I decidedly prefer the latter. So meh. :p
Well i played FS1 first, then FS2 and never spent a moment to wonder which i liked best, i just loved them both lol.
Replaying FS1 just recently, made it kinda glaringly obvious how far mission design had progressed in FS2. ;)
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Yeah, and they didn't have all the new sexps we have to play around with either.
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With the technology they had 10 years ago, it's a miracle we have any missions.
No arguments. No string variables. No beam freed by default.
:p
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Replaying FS1 just recently, made it kinda glaringly obvious how far mission design had progressed in FS2. ;)
Most of the time, anyway. :) A few of the FS2 missions just felt poorly designed, IMO (I'm looking at you, Slaying Ravana).
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Yeah, :v: copped out on many occasions strategy-wise. Oh yeah, give Alpha 1 and the three other most incompetent pilots this new bomber and tell them to take down that destroyer that Pertrarch was complaining about. The Khenmu's gunnery control and have a few cups of tea as well, we won't be needing them. Argghhh...
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I just plain don't like missions where they ask you to do impossible and silly things like that without any support. 4 bombers attacking the Ravana? Wtf? Did they even give you a fighter escort in that mission? I don't remember.
The best campaigns and missions are the ones that have some semblance of balance. If the only way you can survive is by turning down the difficulty to Easy and getting 10 - 20 kills yourself after all your wingmen have been wiped out... I just get turned off.
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I just plain don't like missions where they ask you to do impossible and silly things like that without any support. 4 bombers attacking the Ravana? Wtf? Did they even give you a fighter escort in that mission? I don't remember.
The best campaigns and missions are the ones that have some semblance of balance. If the only way you can survive is by turning down the difficulty to Easy and getting 10 - 20 kills yourself after all your wingmen have been wiped out... I just get turned off.
They actually did give you fighter escort. A single wing of Vasuadan Fighters. I forget which fighter exactly. I always thought that mission wasn't realistic. I have beaten it on medium. I don't turn down the difficulty unless I have to. One wing of bombers and fighter escort is just suicide for that kind of attack.
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Yeah, except the Vasudan fighter weren't even your escort. They were the Khenmu's.
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Just stick near the Sobek. Treat it as your escort that doesn't move. It'll flak and AAAf down those Basilisks for you and provide you with a place to hide while rearming.
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It's easy to get cut down on the way there though. That's what I found.
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I just plain don't like missions where they ask you to do impossible and silly things like that without any support. 4 bombers attacking the Ravana? Wtf? Did they even give you a fighter escort in that mission? I don't remember.
The best campaigns and missions are the ones that have some semblance of balance. If the only way you can survive is by turning down the difficulty to Easy and getting 10 - 20 kills yourself after all your wingmen have been wiped out... I just get turned off.
They actually did give you fighter escort. A single wing of Vasuadan Fighters. I forget which fighter exactly. I always thought that mission wasn't realistic. I have beaten it on medium. I don't turn down the difficulty unless I have to. One wing of bombers and fighter escort is just suicide for that kind of attack.
Right right, the single wing of Vasudan fighters. That mission -was- suicidal.
I just don't like missions like that in general. It's not just Slaying the Ravana, they come up elsewhere in other non-canon campaigns every now and again. I'm a huge fan of Wing Commander but I don't like it when Wing Commander syndrome creeps into my Freespace. I.E. the player must do EVERYTHING, THE PLAYER IS UTTERLY RESPONSIBLE FOR EVERYTHING, YOU HAVE TO KILL EVERYTHING YOURSELF, etc...
It's not what Freespace has always been about for me. Freespace has the best wingmen AI of any space sim I've played. It's at it's best in missions like the one in FS1 to capture that Shivan warship. When you're coordinating wingmen, just one of many, and work together to achieve the objectives. I really dislike it when Alpha 1 is the god of the battlefield.
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What makes the 'slaying the ravana' mission even more unbelieveable it the briefing they give before it
"The ravana just destroyed 10 ships here, 20 caps there and wiped out 50 fighter wings. we are in full retreat
So we want you to destroy the ravana for us.
Get in gear pilot"
wut?
This comic is ever related
(http://www.shatteredstar.org/groups/freespace/freakspace/freakspace13.jpg)
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I love that series.
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Haha yea. I think a lot of it was just Volition not being able to make quality "large scale" missions because people's computers couldn't handle it back then. So if they had given you a lot of support in Slaying The Ravana it probably would have crashed most people's '99/'00 computers.
But this is '09 now and really there's no reason to do that anymore. If my computer can handle the second to last mission of Blue Planet then I can get some friggin' support to destroy the Ravana. :pimp:
Has anyone ever thought of 'remaking' the FS2 campaign, the way FSPort remade Silent Threat? I love the campaign, it's what got me into Freespace in the first place, but there are some missions that could definitely be improved (Ravana, Their Finest Hour) or given a little 2009 "umph".
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Problem is that ST is almost universally seen as a good idea poorly executed. So any fix to it by a competent team was going to be an improvement.
FS2 on the other hand is much, much better. Fixing the missions would be a lot more subjective. You'd get lots of people who liked the changes and probably quite a few who didn't no matter who did it.
On top of that, any large scale changes are going to require voice acting, which might be hard if we're doing anything to a character already voice acted in FS2.
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Well, maybe not a complete reimagining like Silent Threat Reborn. But I don't think anyone would mind if FS2's campaign was 'touched up' some? Case in point, I'm fairly sure most everyone agrees that Their Finest Hour could use some work.
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No, I think Their Finest Hour is fine. TBH on my first playthrough I didn't see anything wrong with it whatsoever.
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1. I agree, Their Finest Hour is pretty fine as-is. It works well as a mission and feels reasonably balanced.
2. Thadeus did remake this mission: http://www.freespacemods.net/download.php?view.499
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I think trying to "fix" the main campaign would amount to an entire class of first-graders trying to "fix" Margritte's "Son of Man" with a box of crayons.
If I could, though, one thing I would fix is to increase the scale and not have everything hinge on Alpha 1. I always try to make the player not feel like the only competent person in the whole GTVA. There's easy ways to do this without going into BoE territory. For example, in one mission I made, at some point an Arcadia about 7km from your position falls under attack from some Hercs. Command orders you to continue doing what you're doing while two wings of Taurets come to the installation's aid.
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No, I think Their Finest Hour is fine. TBH on my first playthrough I didn't see anything wrong with it whatsoever.
So you didn't notice the fact that the Colossus was going on and on about standing its ground to the bitter end when it was completely disabled anyway? :p
I think that just about the only sort of tweak I'd approve of for something like MediaVP inclusion, or the equivalent, would be for Their Finest Hour, for the simple reason that it's clear from looking at the mission file that what we see in-game isn't what :v: originally intended to do with it. There's a whole series of waypoints for the Colossus that are never utilized due to its disabling, presumably because it wasn't moving properly. And if I remember correctly, a few of the cruisers have beam-free-all events that don't trigger due to a timing error. In this one case, where we have a blueprint laid out of what the mission was originally supposed to be like, I think that "officially" tweaking it back to that state would not only be acceptable, but would also make it fit a lot closer with what's actually going on during the mission. As it stands, we have allied ships blockading a node from Shivan attack who seem to have forgotten how to use their beams, and a superweapon's bravely defiant last stand rendered moot by their ability to go anywhere in the first place. Difficulty level aside, the mission isn't all that challenging in the first place, so whether or not the allied capital ships help make kills seems of little consequence, and the player wasn't meant to have any interactions with the Colossus other than sitting around and watching what happens, so any changes to its motion wouldn't affect the player at all. It'd make for an all-around better experience.
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Yeah, at least beam-free those ships.
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Nope, what he was saying was that the Sathanas didn't project that aura of fear that the Lucifer created, though Kara has pretty efficiently covered the reasons why, and I agree with him, even when 80 Saths appeared on the scene, I still didn't get the same feeling of helplessness and desperation as I did from FS1.
personally I despised the lucifer.
I felt it higlighted flaws in FS1's weapons and ship balance.
the problem with FS1 back in the day was always that if you had the time you could without all that much effort take out any capital ship, find a place to hide and shoot..... except for Lucifer of course because it was indestructible with it's magical shields, I took out a demon class cruiser more than once by picking a spot after disabling it's engines..... literally capital ships weren't frightening which was just silly, everyone knew it was indestructible so why bother... what made it's presence all the more silly is that I could pick so many spots and use the same tactics.. sit and shoot but Volition decided I wasn't allowed to do it because Lucifer had these "magical shields".... Lucifer imposed badly scripted missions and didn't reward players with any options for creativity in combat.
now look at FS2....... I felt dread every time I heard a beam cannon spool up.... literally I was full of dread, I felt dread everytime any capital ship noticed me and starting sending flak my way....... uber dread when I was being hit by flack and I heard the beam cannon spooling up.
FS2 made you feel like you were in a fighter, that bigger players ruled this day and you were little more than a pawn FS1 had none of that.
when the first Sathana's showed I knew I wouldn't be able to take it out, I was having a hard enough time attacking Cain class cruisers, I knew capital ships were going to be required, when 80 Sathana's showed up I knew humanity and the Vasudans lost.
literally we had picked the wrong fight at the wrong time.
FS1 was annoying in comparison to FS2 the uber indestructible ship with magical shields that were impossible to destroy made the whole experience pointless......and lead to a disappointing ending involving the 1 chance scenario where I'm forced to fly a massively slow cattle wagon that didn't handle and spend a half hour flying towards the 5 engines I had to disable because it was the "only way" to destroy Lucifer.
I played FS1 on insane until the final mission, I was so disappointed I set it to the easiest level and still it took forever to finish.
I so disliked FS1's ending compared to what was overall a pretty good game.
FS2 was a masterpiece in comparison having learned from FS1 Volition put together tight and epic experience.
the last mission was incredible after I died heroically I was stunned an amazed...... when I redid the final mission and made certain to survive I was a little disappointed and decided to go back and die again.
a phenominal ending.
FS1's less so.
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I'll have to agree with Bloated on most points.
The caps ships in Fs1 are weaksauce
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FS2 just makes me wish i could command an Aeolus or a Deimos, whereas in FS1, i never would have wanted to be a capship at all...
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Really guys? You didn't like the mad dash to the Sol-Delta Serpentis node? You didn't like the final battle IN SUBSPACE with NO SHIELDS???
To each their own, I guess.
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Yeah, I wasn't a big fan of those either.
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What makes the 'slaying the ravana' mission even more unbelieveable it the briefing they give before it
"The ravana just destroyed 10 ships here, 20 caps there and wiped out 50 fighter wings. we are in full retreat
So we want you to destroy the ravana for us.
Get in gear pilot"
wut?
This comic is ever related
(http://www.shatteredstar.org/groups/freespace/freakspace/freakspace13.jpg)
That's one of my favorite comics. It sums the style of the series. :)
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and lead to a disappointing ending involving the 1 chance scenario where I'm forced to fly a massively slow cattle wagon that didn't handle and spend a half hour flying towards the 5 engines I had to disable because it was the "only way" to destroy Lucifer.
You don't have to fly an Ursa :D
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You don't fly one by default, IIRC.
I suppose trust in the AI comes hard to people.
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I find that they work beautfully, I keep the Dragons and Manticores off of them, and C-3-4 them on the reactors.
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I wouldn't tell that the sathanas was bad. The whole plot of FS2 is massively different style than the FS1. FS2 abandons most cliches(tropes) and has few WTF moments (Though I hated the introduction of Sathanas;/ first "OH **** WHAT THE **** IS THAT!!! AAA!!! RAVANA!!! and then AGAIN THE SAME ENTRANCE: here comes Sathanas. Mhm. Can we ~k it command?") however the second sathanas was introduced properly "WTF IS THAT?! PSAMTIK RESPOND!" i liked that.
FS1 on the other hand has almost the best use of tropes ever. And style of telling them (Star Wars IMO wins, but FreeSpace is right on the 1.5th place :)
Cheers and be nice.
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Really guys? You didn't like the mad dash to the Sol-Delta Serpentis node? You didn't like the final battle IN SUBSPACE with NO SHIELDS???
To each their own, I guess.
it wasn't a mad dash..... the story said it was but it wasn't and I'm not sure if having made it so focused wouldn't have ruined it entirely.
I just really disliked the ending an imposed form of gameplay.
You don't have to fly an Ursa
never said you did.... all bombers in FS1 were cattle wagons.
if you wanted to finish the game sometime that day you flew a bomber the Ursa just happened to have the largest loadout of missile bays and lasers.
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never said you did.... all bombers in FS1 were cattle wagons.
if you wanted to finish the game sometime that day you flew a bomber the Ursa just happened to have the largest loadout of missile bays and lasers.
:wtf: Dude. The default ship for the final two missions (the Great Hunt and Good Luck) was a GTF Hercules. The Hercules is not a bomber; it's a heavy assault fighter.
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And at least on Easy difficulty, you don't have to help out Delta wing at all with taking out the reactors...in fact, I don't think I've ever had to make a conscious effort to protect them, even. They've managed to destroy four out of the five reactors by themselves every time I've played through the mission, and they'd probably wind up destroying the fifth if I didn't link Banshees and help it along.
I do have to agree with bloated on FS1's capital ships in general, though not as much on the Lucifer in particular. The concept of these massive floating fortresses tearing each other to shreds becomes defanged very quickly when you realize that you can find a blind spot somewhere and rubber-band your trigger down. (See: Hades) In FS2, the capital ships were actually capital, both in their weaponry and in the fact that there really was no way to kill them as a fighter without the use of bombs.
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And at least on Easy difficulty, you don't have to help out Delta wing at all with taking out the reactors...in fact, I don't think I've ever had to make a conscious effort to protect them, even. They've managed to destroy four out of the five reactors by themselves every time I've played through the mission, and they'd probably wind up destroying the fifth if I didn't link Banshees and help it along.
I do have to agree with bloated on FS1's capital ships in general, though not as much on the Lucifer in particular. The concept of these massive floating fortresses tearing each other to shreds becomes defanged very quickly when you realize that you can find a blind spot somewhere and rubber-band your trigger down. (See: Hades) In FS2, the capital ships were actually capital, both in their weaponry and in the fact that there really was no way to kill them as a fighter without the use of bombs.
Delta wing did just fine on Medium difficulty as well. I didn't had to touch a reactor myself, I was just providing some fighter cover.
Sure it took a while but they got the job done.
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The cutscenes were awesome.
1. FS1 Intro - made me shiver
2. Supernova - COOL!!
3. Hallfight - WTF is that huge utterly non-earthly thing slaughtering our marines!! Total awesomeness
4. colossus cutscene - So powerfull. I want one!
5. Vasuda Prime Bombarded - Really cool seeing independence day like ultra-ship pwning the planet
other's were alright.
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Dude. The default ship for the final two missions (the Great Hunt and Good Luck) was a GTF Hercules.
dude the ending to FS1 sucked ass.
if you wanted to spend 6 days doing it with a herc go ahead it doesn't change the ending..... it sucked ass.
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That's not a great way to state your opinion, bloated. Definitive statements like that are just going to earn flames back. State your reasons and make it clear it's your personal preference, not an absolute.
Particularly since, while I didn't like the ending much either, I can tell you it definitely didn't take six days in a Herc.
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That's not a great way to state your opinion, bloated. Definitive statements like that are just going to earn flames back. State your reasons and make it clear it's your personal preference, not an absolute.
Particularly since, while I didn't like the ending much either, I can tell you it definitely didn't take six days in a Herc.
If you cut power to the engines...
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dude the ending to FS1 sucked ass.
Except so far as you've been able to provide reasoning for this, it's been proved wrong.
Therefore odds are good it doesn't.
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dude the ending to FS1 sucked ass.
Except so far as you've been able to provide reasoning for this, it's been proved wrong.
Therefore odds are good it doesn't.
It is all about personal preferences. Odds aren't good that it does or doesn't, it's up to the person, and you certainly can't prove it's not ****.
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It is all about personal preferences. Odds aren't good that it does or doesn't, it's up to the person, and you certainly can't prove it's not ****.
Of course I can't. However as long as you can't prove it is, I'm ahead of the game.
Unsupported assertions don't fly in any context.
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He doesn't need to support an assertion that the ending of a game was crap, one can simply infer that he didn't enjoy it or thought it was boring.
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He doesn't need to support an assertion that the ending of a game was crap, one can simply infer that he didn't enjoy it or thought it was boring.
Okay, let me qualify: unsupported assertions do not fly in any context, unless you want people to think you're a troll, a tool, or both.
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One thing to remember, there may be people here who've never played the actual FS1, but rather FSPort. I myself haven't touched the actual FS1 game since 2003, and while a few things for me stand out from playing the original game, I've played the Port far more than I ever played the original. As a result, most of my gameplay memories are from FSPort.
In recent play-throughs of the last mission, I've found that I am best served by going after the fighters. In the previous mission, grab a Hercules with the quad bank of Prom and twin bank of Banshees, then loadout the missile banks entirely with Interceptors. Then full-out burn for the node ignoring everything. Then, when I start the next mission, I focus my attention on all fighters, and go after turrets or the reactors between waves. I also learn the patterns of arriving fighter waves and camp out near the fighter bays and pick them off as they launch. I pretty much leave the reactors to the bombers and the rest is easy... granted "easy" is my difficulty setting.
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Particularly since, while I didn't like the ending much either, I can tell you it definitely didn't take six days in a Herc.Except so far as you've been able to provide reasoning for this, it's been proved wrong.Of course I can't. However as long as you can't prove it is, I'm ahead of the game.
1: first off I didn't ask to be pushed... I said I hated the ending and that I was forced to do it with a cattle wagon..... "you didn't have to fly an Ursa"...... I did but regardless the herc almost as bad...... since I hadn't completed the mission in 9 years I decide to play through the whole game again which I just finished on hard 10 minutes ago in a Herc and it was a great example of why I am / was so disappointed with the ending the first time.......the herc was painfull it's slow, handles like crap, nice weapons loadout but you may as well go with a bomber... and now I'm reminded of other reasons why I disliked the ending so.... the developer wants me to play a game this way only....... while it didn't take 6 days it was like a diet, you don't live longer it just feels like it and it felt like 6 days of boredom..... agonisingly boring, repetition and crap.
as one poster was surprised and stated "you mean you guys didn't like the intense ending with the chase and so on".... I would have and I believe I did originally but once actual gameplay met storyline.... ughhh it was gameplay that suffered while ruining the excitement of the story .... it wore it's welcome out.
I'll demostrate the ending: you fly through a mission get scraped up as little as possible.... because next mission no shields.
so instead of playing spend a few minutes flying on max not fighting and jump through the node.... now you're chasing down Lucifer.... you fight a few times on the way and the fighters are Shivan dragons which on hard and insane are just that to take out while far faster and more maneuverable than your herc.... so unless you peg a few with missiles on the way in look forward to a long dogfight in a mission with a time limit, then after restarting several times you manage to get to the generators where you sit and shoot... and shoot... and shoot not flying just sitting and shooting for about a minute or so then a fighter backstabs you, chase it down then go back and sit and shoot for another minute to take out 1 of 5 generators then rinse and repeat as requried.
it just plain isn't a fun final pair of missons and compared to Freespace 2 where it was a knock down drag out fight to the finish requiring you to just survive and preferably save plenty of refugee's and wingmates in the process with a heroic incredibly rewarding ending that I literally watched as I was exhaling from the adrenaline of it all..... FS1 felt cheap and dirty in comparison.
2: it's an opinion and it's mine which means it's always the right one to me.
3: you've proven nothing.... in effect your completely wrong actually given I still hated the ending.
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Buddy, if you didn't like fighters tearing you up, turn the difficulty down.
Maybe if you did your job as a fighter pilot and destroyed all the hostile fighters and kept them off the tails of the Ursa bombers they would've been self-sufficient in neutralising the reactors without your help. I myself completed it on first try, on a poor hull integrity (12%) I think, after taking a hammering in the previous mission (it was on medium mind you). I don't see what the big deal is, however I haven't played the mission in a while, and I mean a while!
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Bloated, you're entitled to your opinion (and in fact I agree with it), but if you state your opinion as fact, you're going to get flamed.
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Buddy, if you didn't like fighters tearing you up, turn the difficulty down.
the problem is it becomes a hollow experience to go through the entire game on insane and then be forced to dial it down...... just really takes away from the whole experience.
if you state your opinion as fact, you're going to get flamed.
not worried about it.
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Maybe if you did your job as a fighter pilot and destroyed all the hostile fighters and kept them off the tails of the Ursa bombers they would've been self-sufficient in neutralising the reactors without your help.
^ This
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Buddy, if you didn't like fighters tearing you up, turn the difficulty down.
the problem is it becomes a hollow experience to go through the entire game on insane and then be forced to dial it down...... just really takes away from the whole experience.
if you state your opinion as fact, you're going to get flamed.
not worried about it.
INSANE! NO ****ING WONDER! Dude... you can't complain to us about this, simply put, it's a general rule of thumb that most missions are balanced for a medium difficulty level (around that). Insane is exactly that. You shouldn't feel afraid to tone down the difficulty, I missed many good campaigns earlier because I was like you and thought 1337 players played on hard with no question :P Thus getting stuck early on in campaigns.
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Seriously, FS is a whole new game on insane - and a lot more fun and better imho.
And if a mission or campaign is not playtested on insane to ensure it is doable (no instant kill swarm missiles directly after warp in plz), then someone made sth wrong imho. :/
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Play on easy...
it's good for stress control.
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Play on easy...
it's good for stress control.
This, i tend to play on Easy by myself, and Medium online... It keeps the game fun, and even Easy forces you to not do anything stupid.
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well, b2t. I didn't like the last mission vs the luci myself.
The bearbaiting mission, where you have to fight against the sathanas is more interesting by far. (the mission before the last one in fs1 was nice, though)
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Play on easy...
it's good for stress control.
it is very calming.
but I just prefer insane.
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Play on easy...
it's good for stress control.
it is very calming.
but I just prefer insane.
Then don't complain how hard the game is.
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Play on easy...
it's good for stress control.
it is very calming.
but I just prefer insane.
Then don't complain how hard the game is.
QFT
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Play on easy...
it's good for stress control.
it is very calming.
but I just prefer insane.
Well, you mentioned how you got tired of shooting forever at the reactors... the thing is, rather than you having to do that, it's supposed to play out where Delta wing (the Ursas) take them out. Each Ursa targets a different reactor, and when those four are down, they all go after the last one. On lower difficulties, you don't have to worry about them too much, since Alpha, Beta, and Epsilon will keep them busy. If you play on Insane, though, chances are the Shivans will kill off all your wingmen quickly and blow the Ursas apart before they reach the reactors, and then you'll be forced to do it yourself.
It's actually kinda interesting, because your stated mission is to protect the bombers so they can deliver their payload. On easier difficulties you can probably get away with flying off and just taking on fighters wherever you want. But on Hard or Insane, you'd probably be better off sticking by the bombers and going after whichever Shivans actually target them... which is what you're really supposed to be doing. (kinda speculating here, since I haven't actually played through on higher than Medium, but yeah)
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That was one thing that always bugged me about that mission. You weren't the guy killing the Lucifer. Instead of Alpha 1 being all badass and awesome it's like "They're the heros now, go and protect them". I ALWAYS pick an ursa in the immediately preceding mission, which allows me to actually make a difference, in my eyes.
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But without you, the bombers wouldn't have a chance of reaching the lucy. You were an essential part of destroying the ship. Not only are you a hero for being involved in that mission, but you also protected the lives of the bomber pilots chugging towards their objective .
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That, and try to thing the next best thing to realistically. They wouldn't count on Alpha 1 specifically 1) because Command just doesn't get it and 2) it adds another level to the gameplay. It becomes more than a "go there, shoot that" mission.
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Yeah. Keep in mind that the entire attack force was sent as a last resort. GTA Command initially intended for the Bastion to be the main attacker in subspace, and at the time the most important objective was to escort the Bastion to the node in one piece so it'd be able to battle the Lucifer. So if you had never played it before, you probably would have expected that The Great Hunt would involve guarding the Bastion against wave after wave of Shivan fighters... and it would have made more sense to take a Herc or some other fighter over an Ursa.
It was only when they realized the Lucifer was too far ahead that they deployed Delta and Epsilon wings and went with the purely fighter/bomber approach. Had Command known how things would turn out, maybe they would've sent you as part of a bomber wing instead, but they instead wanted you out there guarding what should have been the main attacker in the Bastion. I agree that it doesn't seem quite as epic since you're not the one delivering the knockout punch, but IMO the fact that you're clearing the way instead is a nice twist. For once, it's not on your head to do everything... which is nice, since realistically you can't in this case.
(related note: In "The Great Hunt", there's apparently a directive labeled "Escort Delta to Node" that appears late in the mission. I think that it might be similar to the situation in "Their Finest Hour", in that the original version made you protect the Ursas until they departed at the node. Dunno if that's the case, but that would've made for a really interesting mission--any damage you take, any missiles you waste would carry over into the subspace battle.)
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(related note: In "The Great Hunt", there's apparently a directive labeled "Escort Delta to Node" that appears late in the mission. I think that it might be similar to the situation in "Their Finest Hour", in that the original version made you protect the Ursas until they departed at the node. Dunno if that's the case, but that would've made for a really interesting mission--any damage you take, any missiles you waste would carry over into the subspace battle.)
More often than not, I wind up flying the mission that way, just for the hell of it. It never felt quite right for me to be ten kilometers away from my wingmen at the end of "The Great Hunt," and then have them magically appear right behind me at the start of "Good Luck." :p
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That, and try to thing the next best thing to realistically. They wouldn't count on Alpha 1 specifically 1) because Command just doesn't get it and 2) it adds another level to the gameplay. It becomes more than a "go there, shoot that" mission.
realism has almost nothing to do with it.
your sent in because Lucifer was too far ahead..... the Ursa wing is a problem not because they don't try but because the AI is weak.... the ursa's get slaugtered...... their is some composition to the final mission that inherrently troublesome on the higher levels.
the Shivans don't defend with basilisks.... they use a few dragons and manticores and on insane level they tend to avoid your shots...... I mean really try.
using a herc on the mission simply isn't feasible it can't defend and keep up with the Ursa's and it can't maneuver fast enough to tag a manticore let alone a frenetic dragon and it's brother.
throw in insane levels power management desperation, the afterburner that lasts 2 seconds before needing refilling and a difficult mission becomes a pain the ass..... typically taking out a dragon requires a focused shot of everything in the hopes you peg it with lasers and dumbfires before it reacts.... if it does make a run you're screwd until it comes back around.
the ursa's will be destroyed by the manticores, your accompanying wing will be destroyed by the dragons..... if you order everyone to peg a dragon it will take more than 3 minutes for them to get 1 if they get one as it fly's crazily all over the map.
don't get me wrong it comes across as a challenge that quickly degrades to being a real pain in the ass because of the repetition.
I've done it but it leaves a terrible annoyed feeling after finishing.... and one that just feels like it could have been done much better.
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So...why are you playing on Insane?
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Exactly, the game's about having fun after all.
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don't get me wrong it comes across as a challenge that quickly degrades to being a real pain in the ass because of the repetition.
I've done it but it leaves a terrible annoyed feeling after finishing.... and one that just feels like it could have been done much better.So...why are you playing on Insane?
because I've beaten it on every other level..... but their is more to it than that.
I'm not saying Freespace the great war was a terrible game but the ending wasn't designed well.
the story was done very well..... right up to the end but the mission composition itself not so great... it's all semantics now the game is 11 years old and long since written finished released and done..... it's a good lesson on how not to finish a game but that's about it.
if I play a game from start to finish on insane and then am faced with 1 mission that is 3 X's more challenging than all of the previous missions.... well I've got a beef with it but their is more to it than that.
the ending blew...... it wasn't fun, it wasn't fun on infant level and it was less fun all the way to insane.
Exactly, the game's about having fun after all.
sure it is but playing an entire game through on insane and doing it with the feeling that it was a challenge.... a fun challenge at that is great because it's fun...... then you get to the end mission and you've played through the entire game on insane and even if you don't think much of the mission it's a quest.
it's hollow to finish it any other way and spoils the feeling of accomplishment you get from having done all previous missions on insane.
understand I don't really care all that much..... no therapy required but I entered this discussion because someone was complaining about the Sathana's not giving a feeling of dread for some players like the Lucifer did...... I felt different and explained why..... I went on to add that the final mission in my eyes was a disappointment and this is the conversation that has followed so I'm just going with it and not because I have any particular agenda.
when I compare the ending from FS1 to the 2 endings from FS2...... my goodness I can't convey how happy / relieved and even a little proud & overwhelmed by the mastery of the ending to FS2..... it left mystery and really made me feel like I was a part/sacrificed for something........ the ending for FS1... bleh... it was ok but scripted and not really much fun, finished for the sake of finishing is about the best I can give it.
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I have to agree with that. The FS2 ending was just a cut above. FS1 felt kind of like Independence Day.
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I have to agree with that. The FS2 ending was just a cut above. FS1 felt kind of like Independence Day.
I felt that the ending of FS2, no matter what, was full of what some of us called "Command's arrogance". Remember when Command almost literally sends you to helly because another transport blew up as a zillion of too-much Shivans were shooting everything to pieces?
No offense, I liked it. But look on FS1:
Have you ever heard your higher officer almost crying? Remember when you get a message like that from Command (I can't remember exactly what it was): "You have three more minutes, Alpha! You must do it! Please!"
I played FS1 five years ago and these words are still echoing in my ears whenever someone mentions the Lucifer.
Which is more hopeless, for God's sake? You're just a nameless cog in the great machine... but what kind of situation is needed to make Command almost cry?
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I felt that the ending of FS2, no matter what, was full of what some of us called "Command's arrogance".
I think the arrogance in FS2, as ridiculous as it was after the major victories, faded toward the end of the campaign. It started to build up because pretty much every time the Shivans revealed a new weapon--the Rakshasa, the Ravana, and the first Sathanas--the GTVA recovered from the initial setback and defeated it. But once the rest of the Sathanas fleet showed up and the GTVA had no real response, you could sense that arrogance turning to fear and anxiety.
In FS1, that fear was there, but it was limited somewhat by the fact that there was a potential solution in the records on Altair. There was no such solution in FS2. Really, there was simply no chance for victory... all the Terrans and Vasudans could do was run, put up one last road block, and hope the Shivans didn't bust through it. That overall hopelessness created a much more dread-filled atmosphere in my view.
And on the note of echoes... it wasn't a voice, but the image of the star surrounded by the Sathanas fleet in the final few missions gave me chills for a long, long time.
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I felt that the ending of FS2, no matter what, was full of what some of us called "Command's arrogance". Remember when Command almost literally sends you to helly because another transport blew up as a zillion of too-much Shivans were shooting everything to pieces?Have you ever heard your higher officer almost crying? Remember when you get a message like that from Command (I can't remember exactly what it was): "You have three more minutes, Alpha! You must do it! Please!"
I played FS1 five years ago and these words are still echoing in my ears whenever someone mentions the Lucifer.
Which is more hopeless, for God's sake? You're just a nameless cog in the great machine... but what kind of situation is needed to make Command almost cry?
your comment about the ending to FS2 has nothing to do with the ending for FS2.
it was like 5 missions before the end of FS2 when command was openly saying "we can't win this"... "were retreating". "we can't possibly defend against a fleet of such magnitude".
"Alpha you've got to protect those refugee's" "Alpha we need you to protect as many of the refugees as possible".
and finally "everyone pull out and god help us all"....... their was no arrogance in any of that..... literally the last 5 or so missions were all "were doomed.".... consider the last missions were all about desperate attempts to close the jump nodes, that the GTVA was actively sacrificing capital ships for the sake of that goal and the initial hubris of the story was gone.
the problem with Lucifer and FS1 was this.
Command always screamed that they were afraid of Lucifer.
I was never afraid of Lucifer.
I did a number of strafing runs across it looking for ways to destroy it only to be rebuffed by it's shields..... I wasn't threatened.... I could fly in close to avoid cannon fire or I could fly away and plan a new trajectory to strafe it again... no tension no fear.
"oh no it's the Lucifer"..... "we've got to do something"....meant nothing to me that was commands problem, destroying Lucifer exagerated the issue, once the shields were gone I flew up looked for a generator and hovered while shooting it for 2 minutes, then recharge my engines fly to the next generator and shoot it for 2 minutes then do that 3 more times and Lucifer blows.
dealing with Lucifer's fighter escort was the challenge while doing this Lucifer wasn't..... Lucifer was the annoyance.
the first time I encountered a Sathanas I got caught in the beam fire it was sending at my cruiser and was vaporised having never known what it was, the 2nd time I was so worried about the building scream of it's cannons I ran on full afterburner in the hopes I would survive long enough to see it...... that's fear, that's dread.
Lucifer in comparison... nothing I watched and immediately was trying to figure out how to destroy it.... I didn't care if it saw me, I didn't care if it fired on me and if it didn't have the magical shields I would have destroyed it's engines, then it's weapons systems, it's fighters and then it's cannons all by myself.
if a Sathana's saw me..... it was pretty much over, you hugged the hull in a desperate attempt to avoid weapons fire but then you'd be trapped because you couldn't pull away except to run out the back if you could..... it was all bad.
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the first time I encountered a Sathanas I got caught in the beam fire it was sending at my cruiser and was vaporised having never known what it was, the 2nd time I was so worried about the building scream of it's cannons I ran on full afterburner in the hopes I would survive long enough to see it...... that's fear, that's dread.
For me, the flak turrets that shred you in seconds on insane is what did it for me. As soon as my screen started flashing from all the explosions, I just knew I was screwed. Then the dread turned to frustration turned to 10+ restarts :/
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For me, the flak turrets that shred you in seconds on insane is what did it for me.
"shivers" the horror of flak you can't lock, hard to target anything.... at first you aren't sure what's happening then you glance and see your shields going and all your thinking is "what the hell I've got to get out of this" then you think quick and guess where you are then go full burn towards or away from the target to try and break free.... if you make it... and that is a solid "if" then it's almost like you shake your head to clear it and try to figure a new way at the target but by then your missile lock warning is going off so your scrambling to figure out who's getting a lock on you and adjust your energy settings to get some shield and burners back.
you start hoping ani fighter beams aren't targeting you and if you hear a beam turret spooling up.... eek.
one of my more memorable moments in FS2 was chasing down a Shivan Mara that was flying along the hull of the GTD Acquataine.... so I'm chasing it down shooting and watching my missile lockon track the Mara and overall feeling good about this kill.... then Acquataine flak turrets start targeting the same Mara I'm on and I'm thinking "he's screwed" with a bit of a grin.... then suddenlly my fighter is shaking all over, my shields are collapsing from friendly fire from Acquataine and I can't get the lock before I'm forced to break off the vector riding on full burners before I'm destroyed...... the Mara buckles and folds on itself so at least it's dead but I've lost 30% armor from friendly fire and for the moment need to recharge my shield all for a fighter that I didn't get to kill.
a significant lesson for me that I'm just a fighter in this war doing his job.
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Haha. Flak turrets can be a real pain on harder difficulty levels. For me there's a huge difference in the way cap ships appeared in both games. FS1 had ships that appeared often so you became "old friends" with them. They almost had a personality. I remember moving to the GTD Bastion for the first time after the Galatea was destroyed and it felt different. However, I thought that the cap ships, exempting the Lucifer, where grossly underpowered. I can't remember the name of the mission but its the one where the Bastion and Eva pretty much do a broadside of each other near the end of the main campaign and I thought, wow, this is cool, but they aren't doing anything against eachother. It's the bombers in FS1 that did the dirty work.
On the opposite, FS2 has so many different ships you don't really get to know any of them too well except for the Aquitane, Colossus, and Warspite. However, cap ships actually feel like they can do stuff. Sure bombers help out, but I prefer flying intercept and dogfighting while I watch the cap ships tear each other to shreds. Yes, the Sathanas didn't have that huge fear factor until you find out there are 80+ of them, but the sheer firepower and the other cap ships were what I imagined in a space sim.
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I remember trying to fly towards capella so I could get that sathanas fleet with a few banks of trebuchets, I play on easy so I probably don't get all the fun out of the game, I could take down a sath, if I could spend the time. What I didn't know is that maxims will bring a huge ship to 25%, no less. And those saths are only a picture, not an enemy fleet thousands and thousands of kilometres away. I was killed by a collision with Alpha 1 for that.
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Yeah it's just a sun image, you won't be able to reach it. Ever.
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Haha. Flak turrets can be a real pain on harder difficulty levels. For me there's a huge difference in the way cap ships appeared in both games. FS1 had ships that appeared often so you became "old friends" with them. They almost had a personality. I remember moving to the GTD Bastion for the first time after the Galatea was destroyed and it felt different. However, I thought that the cap ships, exempting the Lucifer, where grossly underpowered. I can't remember the name of the mission but its the one where the Bastion and Eva pretty much do a broadside of each other near the end of the main campaign and I thought, wow, this is cool, but they aren't doing anything against eachother. It's the bombers in FS1 that did the dirty work.
On the opposite, FS2 has so many different ships you don't really get to know any of them too well except for the Aquitane, Colossus, and Warspite. However, cap ships actually feel like they can do stuff. Sure bombers help out, but I prefer flying intercept and dogfighting while I watch the cap ships tear each other to shreds. Yes, the Sathanas didn't have that huge fear factor until you find out there are 80+ of them, but the sheer firepower and the other cap ships were what I imagined in a space sim.
Yes! I loved how in FS1 the Galatea felt like home, and the Hope also had a sentimental value to it. I was really sad after the Galatea got fried, right there was when that "We are SO boned" feeling kicked in.
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Yes! I loved how in FS1 the Galatea felt like home, and the Hope also had a sentimental value to it. I was really sad after the Galatea got fried, right there was when that "We are SO boned" feeling kicked in.
I got the same feeling. Man, I think I might go back and play the original FS again. As cool as the FSPort is, it has nothing on the real deal, even with its terribly inaccurate missiles. :)
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Yes! I loved how in FS1 the Galatea felt like home, and the Hope also had a sentimental value to it. I was really sad after the Galatea got fried, right there was when that "We are SO boned" feeling kicked in.
I got the same feeling. Man, I think I might go back and play the original FS again. As cool as the FSPort is, it has nothing on the real deal, even with its terribly inaccurate missiles. :)
I got reallly attached to the Galatea. I wish I could pinpoint what made FS1 so... Awesome compared to the Port. The Port's good in it's own right, but smething's different.
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I...didn't. I'm not quite sure what everybody's thing for the Galatea is. It seems to be crewed by comparatively bad voice actors with stilted writing. :p
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Actually, the Port feels like FS1 to me now. It didn't for the longest time, but I think in the latest incarnation, they got it right.
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Actually, the Port feels like FS1 to me now. It didn't for the longest time, but I think in the latest incarnation, they got it right.
Having played the original less than a week before playing the latest port ( the only one i've played), i found that the port was better in that it brought the graphics up to a more modern lever, and supported my widescreen resolution. While i'm not typically big on graphics, it certainly puts a nice new spin on an old favorite.
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Having played the original less than a week before playing the latest port ( the only one i've played), i found that the port was better in that it brought the graphics up to a more modern lever, and supported my widescreen resolution. While i'm not typically big on graphics, it certainly puts a nice new spin on an old favorite.
Ok, this may not be the place to discuss FSPort, but I will say that even though the Port does have a very clean, polished feel to it, I like the old-skool feel of the original, even with its outdated graphics. While a 640x480 resolution is not the best, it brings back fond memories of older times. And like I said, FSPort is considerably easier with the improved accuracy of missiles than the original.
Props to the FSPort team because they really did do a phenomenal job but I treat it like any other mod. :yes:
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Did they fix the bug in which the Plato never dies?
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The problem with ALL FS1 capships was that they had no point defense worthy of mentioning.
The few lasers they had were slow fireing AND slow moving. A totally retarted combination.
Heck, they even sucked at fighting eachother! Their main weapons were those terrible, slow, useless blobs.
I still can't figure out what the designers at [V] were smoking when they made them.
I played the FS1 campaign with modified weapon tables. Gave the capships better weapons all around. Anti-capital batteries that actually have some range and can do some damage. PHALANX type defensive turrets. You learned to fear the shivan capital ships even more than in FS2 :drevil:
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And like I said, FSPort is considerably easier with the improved accuracy of missiles than the original.
last comment, but this i actually liked, as i rarely used missiles in FS1 due to not being able to hit anything >_<
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And like I said, FSPort is considerably easier with the improved accuracy of missiles than the original.
last comment, but this i actually liked, as i rarely used missiles in FS1 due to not being able to hit anything >_<
I rarely use missiles period unless a mission really calls for it
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And like I said, FSPort is considerably easier with the improved accuracy of missiles than the original.
last comment, but this i actually liked, as i rarely used missiles in FS1 due to not being able to hit anything >_<
I rarely use missiles period unless a mission really calls for it
And then there's my approach, which is load up a Herc II with harpoons and tempests and just secondary the living hell out of everything that moves.
Very satisfying. Unfortunately it doesn't work in FS1 because the Furies are so stupidly big :/
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Yeah, I find myself using tempests alot. Really good for cutting up slow-moving bombers. My favorite though is either the Tornado (because they are so goddamn accurate) or the Trebuchet (because they have a range of 5k and can lay waste to turrets from a long distance)
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I usually load up with a bank of Stilleto II's if enemy capital ships are present - with AAA beams down, you can really dogfight with leisure. In other cases, they are useful for just having fun. Disabling an enemy fighter at the end of the mission and coming back never grows old.
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Yeah, I find myself using tempests alot. Really good for cutting up slow-moving bombers. My favorite though is either the Tornado (because they are so goddamn accurate) or the Trebuchet (because they have a range of 5k and can lay waste to turrets from a long distance)
Your spelling is very close to perfect. Oh, it is a double meaning that means you can't spell the word "a lot" either.
I also use Tempests a lot since they make short work of fighters and bombers. But I wouldn't give my wingmen them.
Uhm High Max, that smiley is a word replacement for people that write "a lot" as "a*lot" (one word). It's meant to be mildly insulting.
Just like "turrent" for misspelling "turret" as "turre(n)t".
And yeah tempests are nice.
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hookt on fonix wurked 4 i :yes:
And is it just me, but does anybody ever use the new synaptic bombs?
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Synaptic bombs don't work out - mildly annoying at best, but better killing secondaries are favoured for me.
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Cyclops, stiletto IIs, tempests, harpoons, trebuchets, tornadoes, hornets in that order of preference
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Tornadoes (Hornets if there's a lack of Tornadoes), Harpoons and Tempests do pretty much everything.
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If it's not a trebuchet, I don't want it on my fighter.
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Harpoons, Trebs (unkillable better tracking Stillettos) and Tornadoes.
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If it's not a trebuchet, I don't want it on my fighter.
My thoughts exactly.
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Synaptic bombs don't work out - mildly annoying at best, but better killing secondaries are favoured for me.
The problem with a Synaptic/Piranha is it's like sniping with a shotgun - you won't hit much, and when you do hit, it's borderline inconsequential.
I always thought its cousin, the Infyrno had promise, given a few tweaks. Maybe a slow-lock aspect weapon that detonated about 150m from the target sprayed the cluster bomblets forwards in a cone. That there just might be capable of roasting an entire bomber wing... *dashes off to test*
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If it's not a trebuchet, I don't want it on my fighter.
My thoughts exactly.
About the only aspect-seeker that hits effectively (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O9rndioYxg4).
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If it's not a trebuchet, I don't want it on my fighter.
My thoughts exactly.
About the only aspect-seeker that hits effectively (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O9rndioYxg4).
Have you ever fired a Harpoon?
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The Tornado's more or less the wish-me-dead.
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Harpoons can only hit if the target is coming right at you or if you are behind it and they aren't turning too quick. Tornadoes can hit just about anything, even a target that is flying towards you at a weird angle. Trebuchets are also pretty good aspect-seekers.
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Harpoons can only hit if the target is coming right at you or if you are behind it and they aren't turning too quick. Tornadoes can hit just about anything, even a target that is flying towards you at a weird angle. Trebuchets are also pretty good aspect-seekers.
o_O It's my experience that harpoons are even MORE accurate than tornadoes. They're both faster and more agile. And debating this is mere semantics, I just checked the table entries.
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I have to concur. Harpoons are excellent.
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Harpoons are also wonderful for the 1km across the reticle shot, provided you can acquire lock.
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I load up with half harpoons and tornados (1 bank of harpoons and the other tornados). Harpoons, in my opinion, are more accurate than tornados, but tornados have far superior firepower, though I'm often disuaded from using them because I think it's overkill, and harpoons are just slighty too weak.
Trebs, I would prefer far above either of those if I could fit more than 10.
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A dual Tornado can pretty much kill anything from a medium bomber to a stealth fighter. However, in the long run constant support ship summons are required which leaves you vulnerable and makes your choice of target selective. Although a harpoon packs less punch you can use it much more often.
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True, a harpoon is weaker, but a Harpoon is really, REALLY accurate, and two of them will heavily damage anything smaller than a freighter. Even if it doesn't kill it, they'll be weak enough to finish with a few primary blasts.
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If it isnt worth a trebuchet, it isnt worth a missile, IMO.
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the hell with that, use tempests and become a man!
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No time to read, will just read the first few and skip to the end.
I hate the way GTVA handled them allright, but in a different way.
The saths are trapped in capella. NOT DEAD. And its impossible they can build 80 collosi to beat them then they finally open the node.
Shivians have been shown to be capable of opening nodes, no gurantee they won't attempt something like that.
Also, they could also full power to engines and head towards the nearest system (in system warp to the edge and then just speed off from there). Sure it will take time, but travel is possible without a subspace node...
In fact, this would make a great FS3 plot if it was ever made, or at least a good user made campaign... the return of the sathani.
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The saths are trapped in capella. NOT DEAD.
We have no idea if this is true. They did enter subspace immediately before the star exploded. We don't know where they went.
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No time to read, will just read the first few and skip to the end.
I hate the way GTVA handled them allright, but in a different way.
The saths are trapped in capella. NOT DEAD. And its impossible they can build 80 collosi to beat them then they finally open the node.
Shivians have been shown to be capable of opening nodes, no gurantee they won't attempt something like that.
Also, they could also full power to engines and head towards the nearest system (in system warp to the edge and then just speed off from there). Sure it will take time, but travel is possible without a subspace node...
In fact, this would make a great FS3 plot if it was ever made, or at least a good user made campaign... the return of the sathani.
Not sure it would make a good sequel, myself. 80 Saths is a good plot device to end the game, but there's no player-oriented option to take them out - it just becomes a capital ship playground. There's nothing a fighter can do against that.
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320 beam cannons to take out?
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Not sure it would make a good sequel, myself. 80 Saths is a good plot device to end the game, but there's no player-oriented option to take them out - it just becomes a capital ship playground. There's nothing a fighter can do against that.
The return of the Sathani would be a fine plot, provided the destruction of the GTVA was only incidental to whatever the Shivans are trying to accomplish. Seems to me that's the only real way to do a sequel; if the Shivans have at least 80 Sathani and they're serious about destroying the GTVA, the GTVA loses. Period. Likewise, if GTVA scientists think they can reverse engineer a Knossos, so can the Shivans. The only way a sequel works is if the Shivans don't really care very much about the GTVA. I think FS1 & 2 indicate that's the case; at no point does the GTVA face more than 1/80th of the Shivan force that we know of.
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Didn't the Supernova vaporize most (if not all) of the Sathanii/Sathanases?
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Some of them enter subspace at the end of the cutscene.
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Of the Sathani visible in the cutscene, the majority enter subspace.
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Even if they didn't enter subspace, would a supernova wipe them out?
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Well, depends on where the hell they were jumping.
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Some of them enter subspace at the end of the cutscene.
A few did yes. But what happened with them - we do not know.
If they jumped in-system then they are most likely dead.
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A few did yes. But what happened with them - we do not know.
If they jumped in-system then they are most likely dead.
Why would they destroy a star an then jump somewhere winthin the same system if it would kill them? Doesn't make any logical sense.
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Shivians have been shown to be capable of opening nodes
No, they haven't. They have been shown to be capable of using unstable nodes, but there's no evidence that they can improve a node's stability.
Why would they destroy a star an then jump somewhere winthin the same system if it would kill them? Doesn't make any logical sense.
They could have been jumping to the Gamma Draconis jump node.
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Why would they destroy a star an then jump somewhere winthin the same system if it would kill them? Doesn't make any logical sense.
They could have been jumping to the Gamma Draconis jump node.
Doesn't look like they could make it out. Even with a speed of 25m/s a Sathanas is still slow...
It usually takes a GTVA destroyer several minutes to get out of the system, and it jumps as close to the node as it can.
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And it would take several minutes for the supernova shockwave to reach the node.
Also, the Shivans have better subspace drives than the GTVA.
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It's still a lot of juggernauts for one node. I'd be interested in lining up thirty to fifty juggernauts, just to see how long it would take them all to depart. I doubt more than a handful would be able to complete the intrasystem jump, approach the Gamma Draconis node, and jump again, by the time the shockwave hit. Five, maybe ten at the outside, if the Gamma Draconis node is way the hell out there, but not more than that. Unless they made an intersystem jump from right there, most of that fleet got toasted.
That said, logic and reason might not have been the guiding principles behind the decision. As alien as they are, the shivans might have come down with a bad case of human desperation at the last moment, looking for any chance, no matter how slim, to survive their own superweapon. Just a thought.
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It's still a lot of juggernauts for one node. I'd be interested in lining up thirty to fifty juggernauts, just to see how long it would take them all to depart. I doubt more than a handful would be able to complete the intrasystem jump, approach the Gamma Draconis node, and jump again, by the time the shockwave hit. Five, maybe ten at the outside, if the Gamma Draconis node is way the hell out there, but not more than that. Unless they made an intersystem jump from right there, most of that fleet got toasted.
That said, logic and reason might not have been the guiding principles behind the decision. As alien as they are, the shivans might have come down with a bad case of human desperation at the last moment, looking for any chance, no matter how slim, to survive their own superweapon. Just a thought.
There was Petrarch's idea of them using the supernova to somehow travel to another place. Or they might have simply been hiding from the shockwave in Subspace. We don't know for sure if it's possible to just sit in the tunnel, not going anywhere for an intra-system jump.
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There was Petrarch's idea of them using the supernova to somehow travel to another place.
I rather figured that one went without saying, but yes, that possibility exists.
Or they might have simply been hiding from the shockwave in Subspace. We don't know for sure if it's possible to just sit in the tunnel, not going anywhere for an intra-system jump.
At first, I was going to say that this was barmy. They might avoid the shockwave by popping into subspace, but if they pop back out inside a couple of centuries, the nebula will still be hot enough to toast their ships.
That's thinking in a pretty human timeframe, though. What if the shivans can loiter in subspace for millenia or eons? Certainly long enough for a nebula to cool, and anybody witnessing their return would see what appears to be an intersystem jump being made without the use of a node. The shivans may have been waiting in Ross 128 and/or the nebula beyond Gamma Draconis, having never left after completing their previous operations.
An interesting thought to toy around with....
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Y'know, that's not a bad idea at all.
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They may not even need the nebula to cool for that. Like we've noted before, these ships are able to withstand direct hits by antimatter weapons. Hurting them with directed energy weaponry requires immense amounts of output. An environment like a nebular supernova remenant, though young, might simply be too dispersed to actually effect them. (In fact, these ships have already been exposed to such a dense, high-energy nebular environment, in the Nebular Campaign, and withstood it.)
I think it's telling that the End Part 2 cutscenes do not say "the Shivans blew up Capella, and our people are safe". They say "we sealed off the system, and our people are safe". The implacation is obvious.
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I think it's telling that the End Part 2 cutscenes do not say "the Shivans blew up Capella, and our people are safe". They say "we sealed off the system, and our people are safe". The implacation is obvious.
Humans are arrogant [explicatives removed as a matter of good taste] who wouldn't dare share credit with their enemies for anything? You may be reading too deep into the quote. The system was sealed, and the shivans did a good job thinning their own herd. One was a GTVA plan, and the other was an unexpected turn of fate. Which would you bill as the result of a heroic final stand, while trying to remoralize your crew, dumb luck? No.
Perhaps the raw heat of a new nebula isn't enough to burn through the hull of a Sathanas, but the cutscene you reference isn't the ironclad proof you make it out to be.
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I would doubt that it wouldn't rip through a Sath.
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They might not have to wait as long as expected, but they would still have to wait a darn long time. Wait a millenia or two, don't jump out instantly.
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Humans are arrogant [explicatives removed as a matter of good taste] who wouldn't dare share credit with their enemies for anything?
Oh please. Don't give me that bull****. The Human and Vasudan races just watched the Shivans pull 80 ships equivalent or better to the most powerful thing they're capable of building out of their back pocket and then use them to do something that is by their understanding utterly impossible. Arrogance is not going to be in vogue. It's also a damnably stupid thing to do in such a context; these people just fought in and survived the worst engagement since the Great War, and the Nebular Campaign, and the endgame for the NTF Rebellion. They are veterans of many battles and they know how the world works. Such behavior would destroy their morale.
The cutscene does not outright say the Nereid was deployed to collapse the node, but under the circumstances there is no other reasonable conclusion. In a sense it does not matter if the juggernauts will actually survive in a young supernova-remnant evironment; the Shivans have just done something beyond the ability of GTVA science to understand, only the deity of your choice has got a clue what they're capable of at this point. The GTVA cannot afford to take the chance.
However given their capacity to withstand damage, there is every reason to believe a Sathanas could withstand a brief transit of such an environment, or even most destroyer-class vessels. Perhaps even remain indefinitely.
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However given their capacity to withstand damage, there is every reason to believe a Sathanas could withstand a brief transit of such an environment ... perhaps even remain indefinitely.
My point, which you so artfully missed, was that this is supposition, and nothing about the speech you cite proves any of it.
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My point, which you so artfully missed, was that this is supposition, and nothing about the speech you cite proves any of it.
Then you make your points very poorly, buried as they are beneath boilerplate Humans Are Bastards.
Of course, I quoted that particular line for its inanity, but I did in fact deal with your whole post, so perhaps you simply didn't pay attention.
We can make reasonable assumptions about energy release in a matter-antimatter annihilation. (Or we can simply use the Harbinger, with a known strength, as a baseline instead if you like; in which case the Sathanas not surviving looks more plausable.) We know how much that will do. We also have observational evidence to understand the environment of Capella post-supernova (this is of course assuming that we understand what the Shivans actually did and that the two-stage nature of the supernova is not in fact a sign we have directly transitioned to Out Of Bounds). In the grand scheme of physics, getting hit by a chunk of antimatter is going to hurt a lot more than a supernova remnant.
Yet the Sathanas sort of giggles at it. It will, therefore, do something less than giggle at a supernova remnant.
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The amount of anti-matter in helios is probably minute. Much less then a chunk. A chunk would probably blow apart the (looking for something heavily armoured) icanus.
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Perhaps the Shivans were going to another dimension?
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And it would take several minutes for the supernova shockwave to reach the node.
FS2 supernova shockwave goes FTL apparently.
As Blue Flame puts it, one node, many ships, slow ships.
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There was Petrarch's idea of them using the supernova to somehow travel to another place. Or they might have simply been hiding from the shockwave in Subspace. We don't know for sure if it's possible to just sit in the tunnel, not going anywhere for an intra-system jump.
Wouldn't a supernova have a rather large effect on subspace?
Subspace is somehow related to gravity and large stellar bodies.
A star going supernova is an unprecedented cosmic event - the energies released are astronomical. I wouldn't be surprised if that distabilises or collapses the nodes by itself (probably not instantly).
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They may not even need the nebula to cool for that. Like we've noted before, these ships are able to withstand direct hits by antimatter weapons. Hurting them with directed energy weaponry requires immense amounts of output. An environment like a nebular supernova remenant, though young, might simply be too dispersed to actually effect them. (In fact, these ships have already been exposed to such a dense, high-energy nebular environment, in the Nebular Campaign, and withstood it.
That was a very old nebula, so it cooled down a lot by then.
Let's not also forget that being in a hot nebula means you're hull is heated from every angle - every square milimeter of the hull is heated up. Heat sinks and venting can't help you in such an enviroment. The hull itself might no melt, but ever heard of the phrase "cooked alive"?
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Are Shivans affected by heat to the same extent humans are? (Other than beam cannons)
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Perhaps not to the same extent as humans (to be fair, a human without any armour is hurt by anything) although we know not by much, from Hallfight, where a Shivan can be taken down by 2300 era machine guns.
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Bear in mind, however, that all Shivans have an integrated beam cannon.
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So therefore, at least their exoskeleten must be able to withstand massive amounts of heat, but may be punctured easier (as eliex pointed out, they were taken out by projectile weaponry)
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There is a difference between a sudden burst of heat and slowly cooking.
Because of basiuc laws of thermodynamics and a thing called thermal equilibrium, eventually every part of a Sathanas (and any shivan in it) will heat up to the same temperature.
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Fried Shivan for lunch, anyone? :drevil:
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There is a difference between a sudden burst of heat and slowly cooking.
Because of basiuc laws of thermodynamics and a thing called thermal equilibrium, eventually every part of a Sathanas (and any shivan in it) will heat up to the same temperature.
By that same law, they would also have frozen to death sitting too long in any cold areas. My guess is that every ship has a fairly powerful A/C system...
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A/C? Why not D/C?
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A/C as in air conditioning... i doubt anything could live in space for very long without some sort of temperature control for their environment...
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By that same law, they would also have frozen to death sitting too long in any cold areas. My guess is that every ship has a fairly powerful A/C system...
Space has no temperature in the real sense. In space, getting rid of excess heat is the problem - not generating it.
Remember collies heat sinks melting?
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[wild speculation] Maybe the shields on fighters, and maybe something else on bigger things (jury rig?) can keep the superheated gas and plasma from damaging the hull. The shields (or whatever. maybe add a new subsystem) go down, the ship takes damage. Would make an interesting post-Capella campaign.[/wild speculation]
EDIT: Added [Wild Speculation] tags.
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Let's not also forget that being in a hot nebula means you're hull is heated from every angle - every square milimeter of the hull is heated up. Heat sinks and venting can't help you in such an enviroment. The hull itself might no melt, but ever heard of the phrase "cooked alive"?
Of course heat sinks would work. Think about how a fridge works.
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Of course heat sinks would work. Think about how a fridge works.
A fridge works by using energy to pump heat out of the storage compartment and onto the radiator at the back. The radiator then passively dissipates heat to the surrounding environment. If the surrounding environment is hotter than the radiator, then it cannot dissipate the heat, and the refridgerator will eventually fail to maintain its set temperature. In a particularly extreme case (such as placing your Indestructolux Refridgerator into a supernova remenant), the radiator would absorb significant amounts of heat from the surrounding environment, and the heated "coolant" inside would begin to transfer heat into the storage compartment.
For that reason, heat sinks would be a liability for ships that survived the blast at Capella: They'd transfer heat into the ship, faster than other parts of the hull would normally allow.
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And it would take several minutes for the supernova shockwave to reach the node.
FS2 supernova shockwave goes FTL apparently.
:wtf:
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FS2 supernova shockwave goes FTL apparently.
:wtf:
Well, it took it only something like 2 minutes to reach the Vega node (where the player is running for his life).
Just how much further away do you reckon the GD node is?
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Supernova could be detected some time after the event, communication lag should be taken into account, too. Not to mention creating sense of urgency - running like hell form imminent fiery death isn't as menacing as "Pilots, the Capella star has gone supernova. You have two hours to withdraw from the system. Take your time."
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Alert! Alert! (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FanWank)
ANYwho, considering all the insane ideas people are pumping out, allow me to submit one of my own: Considering the Sathanas is apparently designed to destroy systems, maybe they also have some sort of external heat-to-power system to deal with the residual nebula heat.
Another thing to keep in mind is that since FS2 lives and breathes this (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SpaceDoesNotWorkThatWay) trope, this conversation is more or less entirely superficial.
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I'm pretty sure that system like that would break some laws of physics, but I don't think that I'm competent enough to point out why.
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At first, I was going to say that this was barmy. They might avoid the shockwave by popping into subspace, but if they pop back out inside a couple of centuries, the nebula will still be hot enough to toast their ships.
Sry, I was not here for some time, so I'm writing a little late, but since when do supernovas create nebulas?
All that I learned says that a supernova will collapse nearby (parts of a) nebula, creating new stars in the process, and will blast away its outer hull in a single shockwave while it's core collapses into a neutron star or black hole.
I also recall pictures of supernovas where you can see this detonation ring.
So going back to FS2, the remainings of the nova shouldn't be a problem for any ship within a relatively short period of time.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supernova
Supernovae have been associated with nebulae since forever.
You learned wrong.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supernova_remnant
"The supernova remnant is bounded by an expanding shock wave, and consists of ejected material expanding from the explosion, and the interstellar material it sweeps up and shocks along the way."
And to quote from the Supernova article you posted:
"The remnant of a supernova explosion consists of a compact object and a rapidly expanding shock wave of material."
A supernova remnant is mainly a shockwave, and will not leave a nebula were the center has any significant mass except the very core (black hole, neutron star or similar).
Within the system of Capella, there won't be matter with a significant density (probably not or only a little higher than it was before the supernova) within weeks. The matter ejected by the supernova will reach interstellar medium unhindered within 10-1000 years:
"An SNR passes through the following stages as it expands:
1. Free expansion of the ejecta, until they sweep up their own weight in circumstellar or interstellar medium. This can last tens to a few hundred years depending on the density of the surrounding gas."
Ok, some supernova remnants are named nebula (the "crab nebula") while others are not (Cassiopeia A (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cassiopeia_A))
True, didn't know that.
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Space has no temperature in the real sense. In space, getting rid of excess heat is the problem - not generating it.
Remember collies heat sinks melting?
I thought space had temperatures exceeding 1000 degrees Celsius. :confused:
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In close proximity to a solar body. Mind you, not just being in the same system, but by being within a few dozen million miles. Also, IIRC, "space" doesn't get that hot. The object that occupies that space does.
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In close proximity to a solar body. Mind you, not just being in the same system, but by being within a few dozen million miles. Also, IIRC, "space" doesn't get that hot. The object that occupies that space does.
You need matter to hold energy in order to have heat. In a vacuum it's simply infrared rays flying around until they hit something.
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Cosmic background radiation ~= 3 degrees Kelvin.
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/me converts 3 degrees Kelvin to Celsius by subtracting 273.
...minus 270 degrees Celsius? :eek2:
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Indeed.
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READ: Very, very cold. :shaking:
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Revenge is a dish best served cold...And it is cold, in space.
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Revenge is a dish best served cold...And it is cold, in space.
Space is not cold. Space, being vacuum, has no temperature. If I were to throw you out the airlock, you would not freeze, but mummify as your fluids eventually escaped.
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Asking what the temperature of space is a bit like asking what the temperature of Earth is. Facts from NASA show an average of 2.725 K, and people can give a reasonably good guess in a particular region, but there's no one-size-fits-all answer.
However, the 2.725 K is a somewhat accepted answer, although it doesn't represent the temperature range of that is as expansive as space itself.
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In the anime Banner of the stars, they are making a big deal out of hull temperature in battle, I was always wondering why, Space is cold right?
Alas I learned about that a while ago, this thread reminds me of it.
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I still fondly remember that command briefing in FS1 when we finally get to have a glimpse of the lucifer. To me, this moment was possibly more epic than the FS2 sathanas moment (possibly because I played FS1 first, but still...).
Simply the ship was somewhat... alien looking, and in it's way, very impressive, especially in it's red/black lighting. I fondly remember the closup on that curious antenna subsystem (I still don't know if it's a beam cannon, as IIRC they are hosted in the 2 forward prongs. and the very symbolical moment where it darkens the star while vomiting legions of scorpions...
All of this made on a superb organ based music symbolising the epitome of dispair, awe and beauty... :eek2:
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I fondly remember the closup on that curious antenna subsystem (I still don't know if it's a beam cannon, as IIRC they are hosted in the 2 forward prongs
These?
[attachment has decomposed]
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That's fan-made, guys. :rolleyes:
/me wonders if there's :wheeze:.
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I fondly remember the closup on that curious antenna subsystem (I still don't know if it's a beam cannon, as IIRC they are hosted in the 2 forward prongs.
You can see the same things in the FS2 intro where they are beam cannons. Ingame, however, the beams are on the tips of the "arms," and those side antennas don't do anything, IIRC.
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In the anime Banner of the stars, they are making a big deal out of hull temperature in battle, I was always wondering why, Space is cold right?
Alas I learned about that a while ago, this thread reminds me of it.
Science time!
Space itself has little to no thermal energy bouncing around in it. However, in spacecraft one of the biggest problems is overheating. With no air to whisk heat away from the craft, cooling becomes a major issue.
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Anyway allright, they're trapped in capella, what if they build a knossos and comes back... or what if they just put their engines into inertial mode and slowboat to the nearest star system? OR, WHAT IF A NEW JUMPNODE FORMS FROM THE RUBBLE?
May be just impossible but from what I understand, something as epic as the colapse of a star could open up previously unstable or even new subspace nodes.
Well even though in reality wormholes are theoratically known to exist, they open for only a few microseconds and so... well wadever.
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Just maaaaybe there was an ancient device hidden in the sun of capella and they needed the sun out of the way first
surely
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erm, heat of the sun > heat a knossos could survive. I doubt anything could be solid in the heat the sun is at, anything. Unless you mean the knossos has turned to plasma and when the sun supernovas and starts to cool the knossos will cool down and gasify, liquefy, and solidify until it forms back into a knossos. Oh wait, not just the heat of the sun, maybe the heat of the supernova too. It also was destroyed by a couple of meson bombs. I'm pretty sure 3 x meson bomb < supernova, but hey, I've been wrong before. :D
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No... they could BUILD a knossos in there... saths are so huge... they could demolish one or two of em and build a knossos. And I believe they don't have ta do that, surely one of them would have packed a spare knossos.
Assuming they didn't, they can still demolish the saths or harvest the now floating around stuff and build one. Doesn't matter how long it takes, but fact is, as long as they are still there, they can come back. Somehow. Besides, wait long enough and one of the three nodes may reopen, or a new node form.
Sir, we discovered a new jump node in the fringes of Altair!!
Great, we will send a science ship to get to the other side...
Hey hey HEYY!!! NOOOoooo <static>
Hmm... lets send in another one...
Hey hey HEYY!!! NOOOoooo <static>
Hmm... lets send in another one...
Hey hey HEYY!!! NOOOoooo <static>
Hmm... lets send in another one...
<100 science ships later>
ITS CAPELLA!!! but where are the saths?
<translator error... some beings managed to build a terran translator...> 'right behind you...'
PEW PEW PEW!!!
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Assuming they didn't, they can still demolish the saths or harvest the now floating around stuff and build one. Doesn't matter how long it takes...
For all we know they could be producing subspace portals (or even Saths) like we produce cars...
Or transistors (!) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transistor#Importance)
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What surprised me most was how readily a human can survive the depths of outer space, a human can easily survive 30 seconds without permanent damage.
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Sounds like it was ripped off from The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy.
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Lucy Dread = They have more Juggernauts than we have destroyers dread.
I think the Sathanas fleet provided the same aspect.
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Sounds like it was ripped off from The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy.
Lol no, other way around buddy. Science says a human can survive 30 seconds and HGG reiterated that.
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Wait, that gives me an idea.
What if the Capella Star was in the way of a planned hyperspace bypass?
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Oh, for crying out loud... :rolleyes:
Earth was destroyed so that nobody will ever know what 42 means. Unless Capella serves the same purpose as Earth, there's no reason to destroy it.
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Just maaaaybe there was an ancient device hidden in the sun of capella and they needed the sun out of the way first
surely
Doesn't that give the ancients a teach level and power far above what they should canonicly have?
You'd not be the first to make such a mistake tough - I can recall several campaigns from the top of my head that really had some strange events and explanations that raped FS canon.
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Just maaaaybe there was an ancient device hidden in the sun of capella and they needed the sun out of the way first
surely
Doesn't that give the ancients a teach level and power far above what they should canonicly have?
You'd not be the first to make such a mistake tough - I can recall several campaigns from the top of my head that really had some strange events and explanations that raped FS canon.
Ancient as in Ancient Ancient, not Ancient as in Race Ancient :lol:
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Again, nothing surivies inside the core of the sun.
Unless you want to bring in magic into the picture....
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Magic is already in the picture, considering FS craft survive getting hit with antimatter weaponry and the mere existence of shields.
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Magic is already in the picture, considering FS craft survive getting hit with antimatter weaponry and the mere existence of shields.
Existance of shield is magic? Since when?
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Well, how do you propose they work?
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And the fact that shields on mere fighters can survive multi-gigaton explosions.
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Well, how do you propose they work?
Any number of ways. I know physicists who don't coinsider shield impossible or improbable.
http://www.universetoday.com/2008/11/04/ion-shield-for-interplanetary-spaceships-now-a-reality/
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The shield doesn't have to be a forcefield. All it needs is huge capacitors and a way of discharging the energy to counter incoming projectiles just before they hit. Nothing impossible in the 24'th century, especially when using alien tech.
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Trashman...you go off on the improbability of things that don't fit your taste (many of which are, admittedly, very improbably), then turn around and present an EM shield against solar radiation as evidence for an energy shield protecting ships from massive directed energy and kinetic impacts.
That's a bit of a double standard.
I have heard that plasma fields might be used for stuff like this, but it's not going to work the way it looks in Freespace.
The shield doesn't have to be a forcefield. All it needs is huge capacitors and a way of discharging the energy to counter incoming projectiles just before they hit. Nothing impossible in the 24'th century, especially when using alien tech.
That's a point defense system, not a shield.
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Any number of ways. I know physicists who don't coinsider shield impossible or improbable.
http://www.universetoday.com/2008/11/04/ion-shield-for-interplanetary-spaceships-now-a-reality/
Which would be no use at all against a weapons-level energy bolt, nevermind an FS-level energy weapon, the three kiloton yield of a GTM-3 Fury, or even god forbid the 45mm autocannon that is the Avenger.
Shields are magic. They've always been. Nobody's ever invented a physics explanation for a shield that makes the slightest bit of sense in any universe. The only thing we have on FS shields which even partially accounts for their nature is that they're some form of subspace-based exotica with severe scaling difficulties. Subspace itself being magic, this doesn't really help.
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Don't blame me just cause some Sci-Fi use redicolous numbers that don't add up.
Also, how exactly do you define shields?
They might not work exactly as you immagine, but they are not magic..Unless they are magic, but that's a whole different genre.
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Don't blame me just cause some Sci-Fi use redicolous numbers that don't add up.
Don't give me that. Shields. Don't. Work. Ever. Write it down, engrave it upon the tombstones of every scifi author. There is no possible physical mechanism that can make them work that we have yet discovered. So they're magical plot devices.
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Don't blame me just cause some Sci-Fi use redicolous numbers that don't add up.
Don't give me that. Shields. Don't. Work. Ever. Write it down, engrave it upon the tombstones of every scifi author. There is no possible physical mechanism that can make them work that we have yet discovered. So they're magical plot devices.
The. World. Is. Flat. Write it down, engrave it upon the tombstones of every explorer.
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Forgive me if I trust a guy who works with anti-matter on a daily basis in the most prestigious science laboratory in the world more than I trust your assesment.
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Forgive me if I trust a guy who works with anti-matter on a daily basis in the most prestigious science laboratory in the world more than I trust your assesment.
When you put it that way, yeah... But when you factor in that there are loads of other leading physicists who disagree, then no. :P
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Show me one who will claim that shields are 100% impossible in any way, shape or form.
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Forgive me if I trust a guy who works with anti-matter on a daily basis in the most prestigious science laboratory in the world more than I trust your assesment.
There are a lot of steps between "Let's design a device that emulates Earth's magnetosphere in order to protect a spaceship from solar radiation" (which is totally awesome in and of itself) and "This shield will dissipate/deflect/whatever several megajoules of energy or this amount of kinetic energy". So far, there are no mathematical models for such shields or how they would work.
Show me one who will claim that shields are 100% impossible in any way, shape or form.
I will say that shield systems, as commonly portrayed in SF, are impossible, given our current understanding of physics. I just know that you will point to this statement and say "A HA! CURRENT understanding! You may never know what we might discover in the future!", to which I will preemptively retort: Please stick to the real world. You know, the one without handwavium in it. Please show me a model of how a kinetic shield can work. Or one that can protect you rom the radiation pulse of a nuke.
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a reinforced iron sphere twenty metres thick surrounding your ship will surely create a stop point for the majority of stuff that comes at you. Now just make it transparent and lighter.
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a reinforced iron sphere twenty metres thick surrounding your ship will surely create a stop point for the majority of stuff that comes at you. Now just make it transparent and lighter.
Using that thesis, take a very thin piece of very resistant metal (different types for different roles) and sustain it in some kind of magnet-hold. In space, you'd simply need to keep it from crashing into your ship. As yet, we have no technology to disperse energy, but if there was a way to redirect it, say, instead of just having the laser 'bzzt' on your shield, the energy passes through and is released on the other side.
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a reinforced iron sphere twenty metres thick surrounding your ship will surely create a stop point for the majority of stuff that comes at you. Now just make it transparent and lighter.
Yeah, that's a great idea. Now keep it centered around your ship, prevent the interior from heating, and work out a way to maintain any maneuverability.
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Exactly! I think we're onto somthing here :nod:
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Okay, maybe I should've put some sarcasm tags on my post. I was pointing out why it's silly.
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I think KW was being sarcastic as well Battuta.
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His post doesn't look like it... :drevil:
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It was sarcastic, I may be wrong, but I consider myself a good inferer on Killer Whale's intentions especially in this instance.
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There are a lot of steps between "Let's design a device that emulates Earth's magnetosphere in order to protect a spaceship from solar radiation" (which is totally awesome in and of itself) and "This shield will dissipate/deflect/whatever several megajoules of energy or this amount of kinetic energy". So far, there are no mathematical models for such shields or how they would work.
What makes you think a shield would have to stop both? Why not just one? what makes you think it has to outright stop it? How about muffling it (damage reduction)? Does it have to a be a sphere with constant output?
Sci-Fi has very different "shields" and I'd reckon a lot of people have a different idea about what makes a shield a shield. And this is even without getting into the semantics of what constitutes as a shield in the first place....
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Actually, TrashMan, I think the shield system in FS2 is more of a damage muffler. 90% of the time, it blocks off all damage, but there are that 10% of cases where it greatly reduces, but doesn't completely nullify, damage.
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how about warping the outsides of the shields around through the fighter so that the opposite faces of the fighter are at the same point, meaning the left side of the shield is at the same point as the right side with the fighter itself contained within the area which cannot actually be entered. Meaning that this shield is actually a field around the fighter which prevent any attack to enter the field seamlessly but also creates the field in which the fighter resides to cease to exist to the duration at which the field is activated, but there is not a certainty that the field will deactivate after a given period of time, making that part of wrinkled space-time disappear forever. But it would be immune to any normal sort of attack.
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how about warping the outsides of the shields around through the fighter so that the opposite faces of the fighter are at the same point, meaning the left side of the shield is at the same point as the right side with the fighter itself contained within the area which cannot actually be entered. Meaning that this shield is actually a field around the fighter which prevent any attack to enter the field seamlessly but also creates the field in which the fighter resides to cease to exist to the duration at which the field is activated, but there is not a certainty that the field will deactivate after a given period of time, making that part of wrinkled space-time disappear forever. But it would be immune to any normal sort of attack.
I didn't understand a word of that.
What makes you think a shield would have to stop both? Why not just one? what makes you think it has to outright stop it? How about muffling it (damage reduction)? Does it have to a be a sphere with constant output?
Sci-Fi has very different "shields" and I'd reckon a lot of people have a different idea about what makes a shield a shield. And this is even without getting into the semantics of what constitutes as a shield in the first place....
Fine. Let's define a shield as a device that is capable of producing a force field that somehow decreases the efficiency of weapons fired through it. Is it possible to do that, for either radiation based damage (Like lasers), or weapons based on kinetic energy? Are there concepts for such devices, based on real-world physics? To reiterate, please show me a model of how a kinetic shield can work, without using magic technology*. Or one that can protect you from the radiation pulse of a nuke. Or getting hit by a weapon like this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airborne_laser). Or all of that. I'm not picky.
* Magic being defined as according to the saying "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic"
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It was meant to be complecated, basically a wormhole covering the fighter so that any shots travels through the wormhole rather than hitting the fighter.
Less basically. Consider a piece of paper with this drawing on it.
(http://img341.imageshack.us/img341/1927/10939891.png)
Now, what is the shortest distance from shield to shield? Why, a straight line of course! Incorrect. Turn the piece of paper on it's side.
(http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/9665/79618373.png)
Now bend the piece of paper so that the lines marking the shield are touching.
(http://img341.imageshack.us/img341/2304/96517407.png)
Now the shield has a very small size and the distance between one side of the shield and the other is zero, both sides of the shield inhabit the same spot. Now consider this 3 dimensionally, but you bend space time around the ship to cause this safety field around the ship.
(http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/9696/80032262.png)
Now you see that the weapons will travel towards the ship, hit the shield, and pass through the other side of the ship harmlessly. Unfortunately this wrinkle of space time may be immovable, impossible to make, requiring huge amounts of energy, unstable or any number of things. If it was stable, then the shield would last as a wrinkle in space time and the ship would be hidden from the universe, possibly disappearing forever with ship and crew. This may also mean any number of unpleasant or wonderful objects may be hidden throughout the universe in these wrinkles of space time. As no light could enter this field the fighter would be in darkness, unless it had flashlights, but then it wouldn't see anything. This also means the fighter would be invisible, but the fighter couldn't see it's enemy. Now imagine if that fighter opened fire. What an earth would happen to the bolts of energy? Perhaps they would escape the field and appear to originate from nowhere. This would actually be a cool story if I could be bothered writing about it or could in fact write. And yes, That was a couple of minutes of paint to make those pictures.
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It was meant to be complecated, basically a wormhole covering the fighter so that any shots travels through the wormhole rather than hitting the fighter.
Less basically. In progress.
:wtf:
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It was meant to be complecated, basically a wormhole covering the fighter so that any shots travels through the wormhole rather than hitting the fighter.
Less basically. In progress.
Ooookaaaay. And wormholes are generated how, exactly? Especially the extremely selective kind needed to let harmless light and radar pulses in, but stop weapons fire, while at the same time allowing the fighter to strike back with his own weapons? You know, the things that make this actually usable?
David Weber introduced shields that worked like that in "In Fury Born", but also noted that in most cases they were next to useless, since the ship that's protected by the shield has no idea what is going on outside the shield bubble, and has no way of influencing events outside the shield.
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"There is such a thing as a tesseract."
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The only real kind of shield capable of absorbing damage as shown in FreeSpace that is actually plausible is a "plasma shield."
Plasma shields postulate using cold plasmas in conjunction with powerful electromagnetic fields to protect spaceships from hazards, (given that a criteria for plasma is to be ionized.) With the properties of plasma, it can protect a given ship against the hazards of space radiation but if in high concentration, will be able to protect against micrometeoroids, shrapnel, beam weapons, and other types of physical damage.
It is important to note that the plasma used is cold, and is actually easier to generate this in a vacuum.
Cold plasma is ejected around a given ship, say a Myrmidon and is held in place by electromagnetic fields generated by that ship. As the plasma itself is electrically charged, it adds to the field's strength allowing it to obtain much greater endurance at lower power levels than magnetic fields alone.
This is can partially apply to FreeSpace as upon the shield taking damage it slowly depletes as the plasma reacts. A ship might be able to eject more cold plasma to replace the reacted one although there is a limit and danger of how much plasma a ship can carry.
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Herra and I talked about this in #hard-light once. If we assume all FS weapons are plasma blobs (which they appear to be, but aren't in the tech descriptions) then a strong enough magnetic field could deflect the charged particles. Of course this doesn't explain how we can stop lasers, xasers, mass drivers, and missiles, but it's a start. ;)
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Missiles are made of metal, and there's nothing in either game that resembles a true laser. There, problem solved. :p
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What about beam cannons?
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The only real kind of shield capable of absorbing damage as shown in FreeSpace that is actually plausible is a "plasma shield."
Plasma shields postulate using cold plasmas in conjunction with powerful electromagnetic fields to protect spaceships from hazards, (given that a criteria for plasma is to be ionized.) With the properties of plasma, it can protect a given ship against the hazards of space radiation but if in high concentration, will be able to protect against micrometeoroids, shrapnel, beam weapons, and other types of physical damage.
It is important to note that the plasma used is cold, and is actually easier to generate this in a vacuum.
Cold plasma is ejected around a given ship, say a Myrmidon and is held in place by electromagnetic fields generated by that ship. As the plasma itself is electrically charged, it adds to the field's strength allowing it to obtain much greater endurance at lower power levels than magnetic fields alone.
This is can partially apply to FreeSpace as upon the shield taking damage it slowly depletes as the plasma reacts. A ship might be able to eject more cold plasma to replace the reacted one although there is a limit and danger of how much plasma a ship can carry.
Uh, wasn't that stealth technology? :wtf:
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That's a point defense system, not a shield.
Well a better name would be "active armor", point defense systems are weapons, not devices that take hits to protect stuff behind them.
One of the definitions of "shield" (found here: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/shield) is-
"a device or part that serves as a protective cover or barrier"
Which means a device which discharges some form of energy as a protective cover to counter an incoming projectile fits within the definition of "shield".
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If it shoots down incoming attacks, it's probably a point defense weapon. Reactive armor just kind of blows itself up to destroy incoming rounds, whereas this fires a directed energy pulse to take things out.
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Missiles are made of metal, and there's nothing in either game that resembles a true laser. There, problem solved. :p
Or they're made of advanced ceramics because that's lighter and stronger than your metal.
Oh snap. :p
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Or they're made of advanced plastic because that's cheaper and lighter than your ceramics :p
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They're made using advanced Nanotechlogies, which are far better than most conventional materials. :P
No, wait, that's INF's EA... :nervous:
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Oh, god, nanotechnology. The number one excuse for not writing '****ing magic' in the last thirty years of science fiction.
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I'm pretty sure the Seventies still liked "Radiation" instead, but...
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Dude, check the date. :p
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Dude, check the date. :p
I did. :P
I also know that the 80s was Genetic Engineering.
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That's a point defense system, not a shield.
Well a better name would be "active armor", point defense systems are weapons, not devices that take hits to protect stuff behind them.
One of the definitions of "shield" (found here: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/shield) is-
"a device or part that serves as a protective cover or barrier"
Which means a device which discharges some form of energy as a protective cover to counter an incoming projectile fits within the definition of "shield".
But then the hull of a ship is technically a shield, so it's not really what we're talking about.
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Oh, your hull armor is a shield in a sense, come on.
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What about antimatter? "Held" slightly above the surface of the ship's hull by magnetism and all that ( like antimatter atoms are held nowadays ), and it'd be much easier to keep antimatter "under control" cause it's space and all. Maybe subspace as well is included in the process of making shields work? Like getting antimatter atoms from some container ( probably from inside the ship ) to the place near the hull where the weapons are about to impact? That'd explain why shields don't work in subspace. And how you can fire with shields still on.
And since antimatter, when in contact with matter, annihilates, it can be a perfect protection against everything, except for photons ( photons don't really affect antimatter, right? ), so only beams can bypass shields.
I dunno, antimatter makes the most sense to me in the how-shields-work case. I'd explain more if I was on a PC and not a phone.
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You realize you just set a massive antimatter bomb up right outside your hull, right? One that's going to be constantly abraded by interstellar debris?
Definitely not how shields would work.
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And when you collide with another ship, or missile or laser hits your shield, there would be a massive explosion. Antimatter = most powerfull explosive known to man at this time. The annihalation of even a tiny amount of anti-matter causes a gigantic explosion.
One proton-antiproton annihilation releases 300 times more energy than a fission or fusion reaction (http://cui.unige.ch/isi/sscr/phys/antim-BPP.html)
the theoretical maximum yield-to-weight ratio for fusion weapons is 6 megatons of TNT per metric ton (25 TJ/kg) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_weapon_yield)
1 kg uranium = 6 kilotons
1 kg antimatter = 1.8 megatons
Missile or laser bolt > 1 kg
yield of the harbinger = 1 megaton
In conclusion, if a piece of debris 5/9 kg (0.5555... kg) hit your shield, that would release as much energy, as a harbinger bomb.
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If it shoots down incoming attacks, it's probably a point defense weapon. Reactive armor just kind of blows itself up to destroy incoming rounds, whereas this fires a directed energy pulse to take things out.
Point defences can usually be used to shoot at anything. CIWS is a moderns point-defense system, yet you can use it in an offensive manner too, against lighter targets. So it's not a purely defensive system since it can attack things.
And when you collide with another ship, or missile or laser hits your shield, there would be a massive explosion. Antimatter = most powerfull explosive known to man at this time. The annihalation of even a tiny amount of anti-matter causes a gigantic explosion.
One proton-antiproton annihilation releases 300 times more energy than a fission or fusion reaction (http://cui.unige.ch/isi/sscr/phys/antim-BPP.html)
the theoretical maximum yield-to-weight ratio for fusion weapons is 6 megatons of TNT per metric ton (25 TJ/kg) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_weapon_yield)
1 kg uranium = 6 kilotons
1 kg antimatter = 1.8 megatons
Missile or laser bolt > 1 kg
yield of the harbinger = 1 megaton
In conclusion, if a piece of debris 5/9 kg (0.5555... kg) hit your shield, that would release as much energy, as a harbinger bomb.
At least you'll go out with a bang. A REALLY big bang.
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Point defences can usually be used to shoot at anything. CIWS is a moderns point-defense system, yet you can use it in an offensive manner too, against lighter targets. So it's not a purely defensive system since it can attack things.
That may only be regarding the CIWS, systems with a restricted arc of fire or operating on different principles probably won't be able to do that, regardless, it's intended use is as a defensive system.
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And when you collide with another ship, or missile or laser hits your shield, there would be a massive explosion. Antimatter = most powerfull explosive known to man at this time. The annihalation of even a tiny amount of anti-matter causes a gigantic explosion.
One proton-antiproton annihilation releases 300 times more energy than a fission or fusion reaction (http://cui.unige.ch/isi/sscr/phys/antim-BPP.html)
the theoretical maximum yield-to-weight ratio for fusion weapons is 6 megatons of TNT per metric ton (25 TJ/kg) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_weapon_yield)
1 kg uranium = 6 kilotons
1 kg antimatter = 1.8 megatons
Missile or laser bolt > 1 kg
yield of the harbinger = 1 megaton
In conclusion, if a piece of debris 5/9 kg (0.5555... kg) hit your shield, that would release as much energy, as a harbinger bomb.
It'd be useful for Kamikaze attacks.
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And when you collide with another ship, or missile or laser hits your shield, there would be a massive explosion. Antimatter = most powerfull explosive known to man at this time. The annihalation of even a tiny amount of anti-matter causes a gigantic explosion.
One proton-antiproton annihilation releases 300 times more energy than a fission or fusion reaction (http://cui.unige.ch/isi/sscr/phys/antim-BPP.html)
the theoretical maximum yield-to-weight ratio for fusion weapons is 6 megatons of TNT per metric ton (25 TJ/kg) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_weapon_yield)
1 kg uranium = 6 kilotons
1 kg antimatter = 1.8 megatons
Missile or laser bolt > 1 kg
yield of the harbinger = 1 megaton
In conclusion, if a piece of debris 5/9 kg (0.5555... kg) hit your shield, that would release as much energy, as a harbinger bomb.
Sorry, I got that wrong:
One proton-antiproton annihilation releases 300 times more energy than a fission or fusion reaction (http://cui.unige.ch/isi/sscr/phys/antim-BPP.html)
the theoretical maximum yield-to-weight ratio for fusion weapons is 6 megatons of TNT per metric ton (25 TJ/kg) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_weapon_yield)
1 kg uranium = 6 kilotons
1 kg antimatter = 1.8 megatons
Missile or laser bolt > 56 kg
yield of the harbinger = 5 gigatons
In conclusion, if a piece of debris 55 5/9 kg (55.5555... kg) hit your shield, that would release as much energy, as a harbinger bomb.
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Yeah, somehow forgot that part. . . Posted that message at 4-5AM.
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I could make a shield capable of deflecting plasma and a shield capable of deflecting metallic objects today, given unlimited budget and unlimited power (but even then it would probably have minimal effectivenes).
Accelarated plasmas are either magnetically or electrically accelarated, and the reverse of the accelaration mechanism. An electrostatically charged plasma bolt (out of something like a sychotron) would be electrically charged, and so could be deflected by making the facing side of the ship charged with the same polarity. This has two problems: 1) the other side of the ship would have to be chaged with the opposite polarity. 2) it would take far more energy to stop the plasma bolt that it took to accelarate it, so you end at a disadvantage.
To accelarate a plasma magnetically would need it to be conductive (most neutral plasmas are). To fight this an inductive magnetic field causing accelaration in a different direction would be needed. this would take less energy that the electrostatic defence field, and would have the advantage of defelecting any metallic object, such as a missile or coilgun round. of course, if a bullet could be made of plastic, it would easily penetrate, as would a laser.
This is still a mass based shield (as in the sphere of metal), but for directed energy and plasmas, a low-energy plasma field may work. If this constrained to surround your ship (by magnetic and electric fields), and of sufficient density, it could absorb much of the energy from plasma (rendering it harmless), and scatter directed light, spreadign it over a larger area (again making it harmless). If greater control ofver the field was available, it could also prematurely set off the detonation of missiles (Magnetic ripples through the detonation mechanism, deflect metallic objects, and render more advanced missile harmless by causing and EMP effect, knocking out it's targeting electronics. Even exotic particles could lose energy, either by cherenkov radiation or impact catalysed decay.
Of course, all of this energy would probably be better spent pounding the enemy ship.
A better defence would be similar to that used by large Clan warships in Battletech, where a bio-mimetic system of veins in the armour pump a rapid hardening armour substitute into any hole made in the armour, so reinforcing it. It must be noted that this does not need either nanotechnology or actual biological systems, just a supply of superconcrete.
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Or a thick hull.
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I think we're overlooking the real question. The guy said that; if we aren't worried about shields being unrealistic then why should we worry about other things being unrealistic, like ancient tech surviving in the centre of a sun. The thing is believability is an odd thing, something doesn't have to be realistic to be believable. Whatever we say about shields they don't seem odd, or unbelievable in Freespace. Even if they might not be possible in our world, I at no point thought "Wow shields are unrealistic." Partly because I'm used to the concept from other Sci-fi games, and it's a technology which I can imagine could exist one day. While on the other end of the scale we have for example something like ancient tech surviving at the core of the sun. It's just not something imaginable considering the logistics of it, and the simple fact is it's horrificly overcomplicated as there'd be easier alternatives. Sure it might not be anymore realistic than shields, but unlike shields it's not "believable" or atleast doesn't feel right for the setting.
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Who said anything about ancient tech in a sun?
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Yeah. Where did Ancient tech in a sun come from? :wtf:
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I said something along those lines as a joke back on page 16
Just maaaaybe there was an ancient device hidden in the sun of capella and they needed the sun out of the way first
surely
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Wouldn't really help though would it...
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Erm I might be mistaken but that's why we're having this entire discussion of why shields are realistic or not :p
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Because we can.
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I think we're overlooking the real question. The guy said that; if we aren't worried about shields being unrealistic then why should we worry about other things being unrealistic, like ancient tech surviving in the centre of a sun. The thing is believability is an odd thing, something doesn't have to be realistic to be believable. Whatever we say about shields they don't seem odd, or unbelievable in Freespace. Even if they might not be possible in our world, I at no point thought "Wow shields are unrealistic." Partly because I'm used to the concept from other Sci-fi games, and it's a technology which I can imagine could exist one day. While on the other end of the scale we have for example something like ancient tech surviving at the core of the sun. It's just not something imaginable considering the logistics of it, and the simple fact is it's horrificly overcomplicated as there'd be easier alternatives. Sure it might not be anymore realistic than shields, but unlike shields it's not "believable" or atleast doesn't feel right for the setting.
hey... newguy!
:welcomered: