Author Topic: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi  (Read 104608 times)

0 Members and 3 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Mika

  • 28
Re: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Quite a number of one liners here, really. Not gonna bother replying if I don't see a point. 'Cause currently I have so much time and so little to do.

So what you're saying is is that you want to see safe **** that is exactly what you expect it to be instead of films that are somewhat more forward-looking. Got it.

Tell us, how much did you pledge to the "Remake TLJ" campaign?

Please now define "safe ****" and "forward-looking" in this context. What are they supposed to mean? With the cultural background of living next to Soviet Union and my parents teaching me the necessary media reading skills, my commie-radar is tingling when I read such vague and good sounding words. For them to have any meaning to me, they need to be defined. So what's this forward-looking stuff you are talking about? It sounds eerily similar to the "progressive movement" what I heard from radios back then.

I also remind you that as a CEO, you have a responsibility of taking care of the property of the owners. If at any point it turns out that things the company has done, have been done for ideological reasons instead of maximizing the benefit of the owners, you are actually liable for prosecution. Granted, it is art we are talking about, so it's difficult to define where things actually do become irresponsible. The way I see it, Kennedy could actually be sued. Instead she will be offered a golden parachute.

Regarding the remake of TLJ, I simply don't throw good money after bad. It's LucasArts and Disney who will fix it if there will be any fixes. Common sense says that you are also very quickly in for cease & desist letters. Disney owns the IP, and will protect it.

----

I've been asked if I see it odd that female heroes that I linked are from movies 35-39 years ago. First of all, the discussion started from people not believing the big shots actively blaming fans, and I provided the quotes. I then expanded the discussion to the point of view of business: if you already have a customer base with a known age and gender composition, it's not a good business move to alienate it in search of the new customers. Why? Because Kennedy managed to do that.

Truth to be told, I haven't seen a lot of good characters in the recent action movies at all. Not even men. The last good ones are Dredd 3D and Sin City (Marv), but even then they are not original characters, but instead adopted from comic books. The same Dredd 3D actually has one of the better woman anti-heroes in Rookie Andersson. After that, there's a long line of silence until the 90s. Alex Murphy, Terminator, John Rambo would be the first ones to come in to mind. Matrix was original in its plot and action sequences, but the characters were the weak point of the movie. Ash is luckily still the same in the Ash vs Evil Dead series. Jyn in Rogue One was the latest woman character in Star Wars so there's that too. She just wasn't a particularly shining character.

There's a reason why women were written the way they were in the 80s action movies when the studios were experimenting with female action heroes. You simply cannot write characters with significantly more feministic traits to an action movie without breaking the action in the action movie. James Cameron still did this best, and Leia is the forerunner. I've met women saying that in Wonder Woman (Generic superhero movie #54) the gender doesn't mean anything - they could exchange Diana to Captain America without significant problems. Funny thing that, they need to provide action for people who are paying for the action genre movies. Oh, and there's no way to get me to a theater to see a romantic comedy, not my cup of tea.

----

Mark Hamill has given an interview a couple of days ago where he effectively says he did his job as an actor to fulfill the visions of JJ and Rian, even though he didn't like the changes the did to Luke. :D It also seems to me that he has just realized the bigger picture of what he has been part of and an enabler of, i.e. having good intentions to make world a better place when it actually ended up as a worse place due to the said actions. Could be quite jarring for a person of his age.
Relaxed movement is always more effective than forced movement.

 

Offline mjn.mixael

  • Cutscene Master
  • 212
  • Chopped liver
    • Steam
    • Twitter
Re: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi
I think TLJ is a poorly written film and even more poorly executed... but your arguments are even worse, Mika.
Cutscene Upgrade Project - Mainhall Remakes - Between the Ashes
Youtube Channel - P3D Model Box
Between the Ashes is looking for committed testers, PM me for details.
Freespace Upgrade Project See what's happening.

 

Offline The E

  • He's Ebeneezer Goode
  • 213
  • Nothing personal, just tech support.
    • Steam
    • Twitter
Re: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Please now define "safe ****" and "forward-looking" in this context. What are they supposed to mean? With the cultural background of living next to Soviet Union and my parents teaching me the necessary media reading skills, my commie-radar is tingling when I read such vague and good sounding words. For them to have any meaning to me, they need to be defined. So what's this forward-looking stuff you are talking about? It sounds eerily similar to the "progressive movement" what I heard from radios back then.

In this context? Safe **** would be the kind of movie that doesn't dare to imply that Luke never really overcame his issues or that he had difficulty transitioning from student to mentor.
Safe **** would be to take everything in TFA at face value and go the expected route with every mystery box JJA shat out (i.e. ignore the buffoonishness of Hux and turn him into the competent commander folks imagined him to be, give Rey some form of backstory connecting her to someone in the lore, get Luke into the fight as a new leader alongside Leia, have a bunch of cameos of existing characters like Ackbar, Wedge or Lando show up to suck fanboy dick...).
Safe **** is a studio so utterly controlled that nothing that would ever imply that the status quo may not be eternal can leak.
Safe ****, in essence, is making the movie you wanted to see, with the people and press releases you would have written. Guaranteed crowd pleaser. Also guaranteed to be vapid ****e.

Quote
I also remind you that as a CEO, you have a responsibility of taking care of the property of the owners. If at any point it turns out that things the company has done, have been done for ideological reasons instead of maximizing the benefit of the owners, you are actually liable for prosecution. Granted, it is art we are talking about, so it's difficult to define where things actually do become irresponsible. The way I see it, Kennedy could actually be sued. Instead she will be offered a golden parachute.

At worst, AT WORST, Kathleen Kennedy presided over ONE (count 'em, ONE) movie that failed to make its money back. Overall, her work provided billions of dollars in revenue to Disney.

But she insulted you personally, didn't she, and that can't stand, right?

Quote
I've been asked if I see it odd that female heroes that I linked are from movies 35-39 years ago. First of all, the discussion started from people not believing the big shots actively blaming fans, and I provided the quotes. I then expanded the discussion to the point of view of business: if you already have a customer base with a known age and gender composition, it's not a good business move to alienate it in search of the new customers. Why? Because Kennedy managed to do that.

It's also generally a good idea to try to expand your audience and keep it at a healthy mixture of old and new fans, not cater to the old fans exclusively.

Quote
Truth to be told, I haven't seen a lot of good characters in the recent action movies at all. Not even men. The last good ones are Dredd 3D and Sin City (Marv), but even then they are not original characters, but instead adopted from comic books. The same Dredd 3D actually has one of the better woman anti-heroes in Rookie Andersson. After that, there's a long line of silence until the 90s. Alex Murphy, Terminator, John Rambo would be the first ones to come in to mind. Matrix was original in its plot and action sequences, but the characters were the weak point of the movie. Ash is luckily still the same in the Ash vs Evil Dead series. Jyn in Rogue One was the latest woman character in Star Wars so there's that too. She just wasn't a particularly shining character.

You really need to watch more movies. Wasn't it you, a couple years back, who was having a moment of utterly insane opinions where you couldn't believe modern SF/F novels were comparable to old ones?
If I'm just aching this can't go on
I came from chasing dreams to feel alone
There must be changes, miss to feel strong
I really need lifе to touch me
--Evergrey, Where August Mourns

 

Offline Aesaar

  • 210
Re: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Safe **** is The Force Awakens.  The Last Jedi is many things, but it definitely wasn't safe ****.

 

Offline Colonol Dekker

  • HLP is my mistress
  • Moderator
  • 213
  • Aken Tigh Dekker- you've probably heard me
    • My old squad sub-domain
Re: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi
I personally think it was just **** ****.  The only scene I took a liking to was the throne room fight.
Campaigns I've added my distinctiveness to-
- Blue Planet: Battle Captains
-Battle of Neptune
-Between the Ashes 2
-Blue planet: Age of Aquarius
-FOTG?
-Inferno R1
-Ribos: The aftermath / -Retreat from Deneb
-Sol: A History
-TBP EACW teaser
-Earth Brakiri war
-TBP Fortune Hunters (I think?)
-TBP Relic
-Trancsend (Possibly?)
-Uncharted Territory
-Vassagos Dirge
-War Machine
(Others lost to the mists of time and no discernible audit trail)

Your friendly Orestes tactical controller.

Secret bomb God.
That one time I got permabanned and got to read who was being bitxhy about me :p....
GO GO DEKKER RANGERSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
President of the Scooby Doo Model Appreciation Society
The only good Zod is a dead Zod
NEWGROUNDS COMEDY GOLD, UPDATED DAILY
http://badges.steamprofile.com/profile/default/steam/76561198011784807.png

 

Offline General Battuta

  • Poe's Law In Action
  • 214
  • i wonder when my postcount will exceed my iq
Re: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi
We can just all not engage with Mika you know.

Mjn, if you feel The Last Jedi didn't move Star Wars in any new directions, when have you seen a Star Wars movie before this one which argued that the Force is for everyone, that the Jedi are bad and a failure, that rascals and scoundrels are in fact bad selfish people, and (most importantly) that the heroes are not special, not chosen by Destiny, but in fact regular people?

Those seem like very sharp departures in most respects, even from the prequels, which argued the Jedi were horrible failures but didn't say it out loud.

 

Offline General Battuta

  • Poe's Law In Action
  • 214
  • i wonder when my postcount will exceed my iq
Re: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi
I very much disagree with your justification on poorly written characters, especially in the case of Holdo who is barely a character and more of a plot obstacle. She literally shows up out of nowhere to be an opposing force to Poe.

Vader shows up out of nowhere at the start of ANH to be an opposing force to Luke. I don't...follow this argument.

 

Offline mjn.mixael

  • Cutscene Master
  • 212
  • Chopped liver
    • Steam
    • Twitter
Re: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi
You're obviously over generalizing my point in order to try and prove it false. You're a writer, I expected better from you.
Cutscene Upgrade Project - Mainhall Remakes - Between the Ashes
Youtube Channel - P3D Model Box
Between the Ashes is looking for committed testers, PM me for details.
Freespace Upgrade Project See what's happening.

 

Offline Aesaar

  • 210
Re: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi
I'm not entirely sure how you're supposed to introduce a new character without introducing them.

 

Offline mjn.mixael

  • Cutscene Master
  • 212
  • Chopped liver
    • Steam
    • Twitter
Re: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Ugh. Ok, I'm gonna stop discussing this movie. You all that are for the movie are more interested in pummeling us who disagree into submission than having a discussion.

Instead of trying to understand my more nuanced general disappointment with the film, you're nitpicking any example I try to use to help explain how I feel. It's annoying and I expected better from many of you because I now you're much smarter than that.

Additionally, if you can't look at TLJ and see that it absolutely has faults even if you still like it, then this is not a conversation worth having with you.

So I'm gonna move on. I tried.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2018, 10:01:23 pm by mjn.mixael »
Cutscene Upgrade Project - Mainhall Remakes - Between the Ashes
Youtube Channel - P3D Model Box
Between the Ashes is looking for committed testers, PM me for details.
Freespace Upgrade Project See what's happening.

 

Offline General Battuta

  • Poe's Law In Action
  • 214
  • i wonder when my postcount will exceed my iq
Re: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi
You're obviously over generalizing my point in order to try and prove it false. You're a writer, I expected better from you.

I don't understand where you draw the line between a generalization and a specificity here. And please try to reply to conversation about the movie with conversation about the movie; we can leave the personal stuff aside.

If you can't look at TLJ and see that it absolutely has faults even if you still like it, then this is not a conversation worth having with you.

I just listed several faults in the movie in a post you replied to.

 
Re: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi
I've been asked if I see it odd that female heroes that I linked are from movies 35-39 years ago. First of all, the discussion started from people not believing the big shots actively blaming fans, and I provided the quotes. I then expanded the discussion to the point of view of business: if you already have a customer base with a known age and gender composition, it's not a good business move to alienate it in search of the new customers. Why? Because Kennedy managed to do that.

Why do you feel alienated by the casting of a woman in the lead role?
It's worth noting that the quote you've referenced of Kennedy is her response to fan criticism.

 

Offline Aesaar

  • 210
Re: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Ugh. Ok, I'm gonna stop discussing this movie. You all that are for the movie are more interested in pummeling us who disagree into submission than having a discussion.

Instead of trying to understand my more nuanced general disappointment with the film, you're nitpicking any example I try to use to help explain how I feel. It's annoying and I expected better from many of you because I now you're much smarter than that.

Additionally, if you can't look at TLJ and see that it absolutely has faults even if you still like it, then this is not a conversation worth having with you.

So I'm gonna move on. I tried.

If you've read the posts I've made in this thread, you'd see I'm plenty critical of this movie. 

I asked because I genuinely don't understand the point you're trying to make.  I expected better from you than quitting because you're asked to explain what you're saying.

 

Offline karajorma

  • King Louie - Jungle VIP
  • Administrator
  • 214
    • Karajorma's Freespace FAQ
Re: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi
It's the number of stupid things along with a nothing ending.

I don't get this. How is it a nothing ending? The only difference between the end of Empire and the end of TLJ is the whole Han taken by Jabba the Hutt plotline (and it's not like we didn't expect him to be rescued first thing in the next film). Apart from that, both films actually left a surprisingly sparse number of plot threads open. Empire didn't even go as far as to point out the existence of the second death star! It just popped up half built in the third film even though it's one of the big plot drivers in the film.



Counting up the deserters and mutineers, that's at least 17 people who are clearly suffering from morale issues. That's a little over 4% of the remaining survivors, likely coming up to 6% if we discount the injured and incapacitated and grant that were probably a couple more deserters.

Given the objective of the mutiny was to seize control of the bridge, it wouldn't make sense to make it a widespread mutiny.

So by your own figures 6% of the ship (most of whom were people Poe's subordinates) vs 94% of the ship. That's not proof of widespread dissatifaction with Holdo. Bear in mind that Poe is charismatic enough that most of his squadron follow him to their own deaths. It's pretty believable that he could have told them about Finn and Rose and talked them into a mutiny even if they'd actually known Holdo's plans. He truly believed his plan had a chance. He put it into action long before he knew what Holdo was or wasn't doing. He could easily have argued that Holdo's plan is too risky (If the First Order do see them leave the ship they'll all be slaughtered) and his plan allows them to jump out with their flagship intact.

So yeah, I don't buy your argument that the majority of the crew were disaffected. There's no proof either way.

Quote
You keep bringing up the point about the 30 seconds before the mutiny started. I'm not arguing that was when she failed. Holdo failed several hours before when she had the time to reassure the remaining survivors after Leia was incapacitated.

And as I keep pointing out to you there is no reason for her to believe she was failing at that point. From her point of view there is absolutely no sensible reason to mutiny against her. Bear in mind, she has valid reasons for keeping her plan secret given that it absolutely relies on stealth. You want her to be going out and giving speeches about how she has a plan. Speeches that will do little to convince Poe that she's not just faking it. Instead she is doing what a good leader should be doing, demonstrating her competence by leading. By acting as if she does have a plan and is executing it instead of hand-holding. Had it not been for Poe's plan (Which as I keep pointing out she doesn't know about!) she would have come through it looking like Adama in Hand of God. Stop picturing everything from the view we have in the film and imagine it from the viewpoint of someone not invested in the Poe/Holdo conflict. Holdo comes out pretty well if you do that. At no point does she look defeated. She had a plan and she unflappably carried it out, even when some dumb idiot got in her way.

Like I said, the problem with the film is that it does such a good job of convincing you that Poe is correct and that Holdo isn't a good leader that you're still having trouble seeing that you were wrong after it's revealed you were tricked.

Quote
If Holdo had a line where she said something along the lines of, "I should have kept a tougher lease on Poe" instead of that silly "He's a troublemaker. I like him" line, I probably also would have been more favorable towards Holdo. Admitting fault is another characteristic that for me anyways defines good leadership.

If you look at that line, she's basically saying she doesn't have any ill feelings towards Poe for his actions. And he mutinied against her something that would piss off most people. Holdo however doesn't blame him for it. She sees that with the information he had, maybe she'd have done the same thing. That's actually a far more important admission than her trying to blame herself for things she couldn't possibly have foreseen. I agree the line is somewhat silly, but the intention behind it isn't.

Quote
And I keep bringing up Adama because whenever I watch BSG, it feels believable compared to when I watch pretty much anything Star Wars. Adama as a character sold me on the idea that he's a good leader, whereas Holdo just doesn't unless I'm willing to abstract away a lot of things and just roll with what the film wants me to think.

We see Adama from the point of view of Adama. We have lots of reasons to see why he is a good leader. With Holdo we have a few minutes of screen time seen from the point of view of a character who we are supposed to side with. Of course we aren't going to see the good leader stuff, it goes against the narrative. I'm sure if the first time and only time we saw Adama was from the point of view of the people who believed that he was being influenced by Boomer, we'd see him as a weak leader too.

Quote
At the very start of the film, Poe disobeys a direct order from Leia.

Which brings me to another point, why isn't Leia considered a weak leader then? Not only does Poe disobey her, but so does his entire squadron. They all die following Poe when they could have listened to her and lived.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2018, 01:38:37 am by karajorma »
Karajorma's Freespace FAQ. It's almost like asking me yourself.

[ Diaspora ] - [ Seeds Of Rebellion ] - [ Mind Games ]

 
Re: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Which really speaks to the whole corporitization of nu Star Wars. Of course they'll go on rebelling forever. How else is Disney going to keep this going? For as much as TLJ tries to push the boundaries and make Star Wars different, I partially feel it did nothing at all. Could we really have Star Wars without stormtroopers or rebels in orange? I'd like to be proven wrong.

Again I would ask why does this criticism come on the heels of Last Jedi instead of Force Awakens?  Black Wolf celebrated it as a reboot. A quick scan back at the other thread has you giving a B+.  The film offered almost nothing new whatsoever, just recycle ideas re-assembled into some new jigsaw and yet fans love it by and large or at least give it a free pass for its many many faults.

And ironically looking for something that's not just rebels and stormtroopers? Fan backlash will probably kill the very thing you're looking for here. Rian Johnson was supposed to get his own trilogy apart from the main story line, as far as we know it's still a go ahead but is this backlash against TLJ going to put it in jeopardy? 





 

Offline Snarks

  • 27
Re: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi
So by your own figures 6% of the ship (most of whom were people Poe's subordinates) vs 94% of the ship. That's not proof of widespread dissatifaction with Holdo. Bear in mind that Poe is charismatic enough that most of his squadron follow him to their own deaths. It's pretty believable that he could have told them about Finn and Rose and talked them into a mutiny even if they'd actually known Holdo's plans. He truly believed his plan had a chance. He put it into action long before he knew what Holdo was or wasn't doing. He could easily have argued that Holdo's plan is too risky (If the First Order do see them leave the ship they'll all be slaughtered) and his plan allows them to jump out with their flagship intact.

As I mentioned earlier, we're arguing over something that's ultimately going to come down to our personal beliefs and evaluation on what is considered a morale issue. At this point, we've probably picked over all the relevant details to continue this particular branch of the discussion.

And as I keep pointing out to you there is no reason for her to believe she was failing at that point. From her point of view there is absolutely no sensible reason to mutiny against her. Bear in mind, she has valid reasons for keeping her plan secret given that it absolutely relies on stealth. You want her to be going out and giving speeches about how she has a plan. Speeches that will do little to convince Poe that she's not just faking it. Instead she is doing what a good leader should be doing, demonstrating her competence by leading. By acting as if she does have a plan and is executing it instead of hand-holding. Had it not been for Poe's plan (Which as I keep pointing out she doesn't know about!) she would have come through it looking like Adama in Hand of God. Stop picturing everything from the view we have in the film and imagine it from the viewpoint of someone not invested in the Poe/Holdo conflict. Holdo comes out pretty well if you do that. At no point does she look defeated. She had a plan and she unflappably carried it out, even when some dumb idiot got in her way.

The issue I feel here is that we have different valuation on what actions are more important for the situation at hand. It seems to me that you believe secrecy about the plan was more important here whereas I felt it was unnecessary and actually harmful to the crew's morale. I mentioned that if they even so much as dropped a simple line about there being a potential spy on-board then secrecy would have made a lot more sense. But as it stands, I don't actually see a reason why it would have made any sense. Am I expected to believe that someone in the Resistance was going to open a communications channel with the First Order to sell out their own after hearing about stealth transports? There's no mention of traitors, communication bugs, or anything that would lead to me think secrecy was important at the moment. Everyone onboard has a vested interest to not leak that info. It was only when DJ got involved (who is a mercenary outsider) that the plan was leaked, and as you said, there's no reason for Holdo to expect DJ to even be a factor in the circumstances. For her to have foreseen DJ leaking the plan would require her to also foresee Poe running off and bringing back an outsider.

Like I said, the problem with the film is that it does such a good job of convincing you that Poe is correct and that Holdo isn't a good leader that you're still having trouble seeing that you were wrong after it's revealed you were tricked.

You keep assuming I'm siding with Poe here. I've literally said that Poe is an idiot, and that I don't endorse either Poe and Holdo's decisions. Stop treating it as a dichotomy between Poe and Holdo. I disagreed with Poe not sharing his plan and to run a mutiny, but that does not mean I can't disagree with Holdo also not sharing the plan during a morale crisis. The real issue is that it seems arbitrary to me that Holdo withheld that information, which leads me to conclude that she was being strict for no real reason other than possibly her own pride.

If you look at that line, she's basically saying she doesn't have any ill feelings towards Poe for his actions. And he mutinied against her something that would piss off most people. Holdo however doesn't blame him for it. She sees that with the information he had, maybe she'd have done the same thing. That's actually a far more important admission than her trying to blame herself for things she couldn't possibly have foreseen. I agree the line is somewhat silly, but the intention behind it isn't.

Following from my perception of Holdo, this line honestly felt out of left field. Up to this point, Holdo had acted on what seemed like pride about running a strict ship. It makes her feel close minded and inflexible. My conclusion then was that she had either purposefully withheld that information in order to teach Poe his place or treated people mechanically on a need to know basis, both of which I saw as bad decisions given the circumstances.

We see Adama from the point of view of Adama. We have lots of reasons to see why he is a good leader. With Holdo we have a few minutes of screen time seen from the point of view of a character who we are supposed to side with. Of course we aren't going to see the good leader stuff, it goes against the narrative. I'm sure if the first time and only time we saw Adama was from the point of view of the people who believed that he was being influenced by Boomer, we'd see him as a weak leader too.

I think the issue here is that there really isn't anything that was done by Holdo that would imply she was right. As you said before, the film expects us to assume she was right all along, but what was she even right about? To have blind faith in your superiors? To escape on stealth transports, which in itself seemed to be Leia's idea to begin with given she is the one who explained it to Poe. Actions speak a lot more than words, but everything about Holdo being a good leader seems to depend on us extrapolating and interpreting from lines given to us. We are told she was the commander for a significant battle. But depending on how you interpret that, it could simply mean she is an excellent tactician, not necessarily someone who can inspire people. The fact that we don't see her successfully raising morale only adds to the idea that she is not the inspirational leader needed for the situation. I will say that her decision to remain to act as a distraction (even as contrived as it is that we are expected to believe that there is no autopilot on ships) demonstrated a quality in her character, and I did mentioned that she redeemed herself in the end.

If you don't believe there is a morale crisis, then of course we are going to disagree on the requirements for being the fleet leader at the moment. But deserters, mutineers, the seemingly hopeless circumstances, and just the general mood of the crew implies to me that morale is at an all time low. Of course you can say the film purposefully withheld the remaining 94% of the crew who are actually joking around and not experiencing a crisis, but that is both incredibly cheap on the part of the film and very hard to believe given the factors at hand.

Which brings me to another point, why isn't Leia considered a weak leader then? Not only does Poe disobey her, but so does his entire squadron. They all die following Poe when they could have listened to her and lived.

I did in fact said that Leia was partly to blame for the issue, for not being more strict on Poe, for not picking someone who was more charismatic to lead in her place. But she was incapacitated, so it wouldn't be fair to say that she should have done something when she obviously couldn't. All I could say was that she could of had better contingencies in the event that she gets incapacitated. If Leia had not been incapacitated but also didn't do more to discipline Poe or deal with morale, then I would say she very much made a mistake. But part of Leia's defining character is that she is the inspirational leader. She is the one who gave that speech about having hope at the very end of the film afterall.

Ultimately, I reconciled that Holdo was the wrong leader for the circumstances. She seemed like someone who runs a strict ship, likely getting very excellent performance from her crew, but was the wrong person to be leading the Resistance in Leia's place. To me, Holdo comes off as someone who is a little prideful about her command but nonetheless is probably capable as a tactician that unfortunately was forcibly promoted/pushed into a position that she did not have the skills to handle. She is the excellent auxiliary commander that reliably executes the orders from her superiors to an exacting detail but falters when she is expected to be the inspirational leader that keeps people together.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2018, 06:35:10 am by Snarks »

 
Re: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi
The issue I feel here is that we have different valuation on what actions are more important for the situation at hand. It seems to me that you believe secrecy about the plan was more important here whereas I felt it was unnecessary and actually harmful to the crew's morale. I mentioned that if they even so much as dropped a simple line about there being a potential spy on-board then secrecy would have made a lot more sense. But as it stands, I don't actually see a reason why it would have made any sense. Am I expected to believe that someone in the Resistance was going to open a communications channel with the First Order to sell out their own after hearing about stealth transports? There's no mention of traitors, communication bugs, or anything that would lead to me think secrecy was important at the moment. Everyone onboard has a vested interest to not leak that info. It was only when DJ got involved (who is a mercenary outsider) that the plan was leaked, and as you said, there's no reason for Holdo to expect DJ to even be a factor in the circumstances. For her to have foreseen DJ leaking the plan would require her to also foresee Poe running off and bringing back an outsider.

Not sure how DJ is relevant. Poe transmitted information to Rebels onboard a ship at high risk of being captured. That is beyond stupid. Particularly when Poe already knows that Kylo can just mindrip **** right out of your head having suffered this in TFA.

If you want to look at the realistic side of things. We know from Grace/Finn that people have been ditching the ship.  Is Holdo going to communicate the plan when people are deserting ship in escape pods? Can those escape pods be captured and their crew interrogated by the FO?

If you look at that line, she's basically saying she doesn't have any ill feelings towards Poe for his actions. And he mutinied against her something that would piss off most people. Holdo however doesn't blame him for it. She sees that with the information he had, maybe she'd have done the same thing. That's actually a far more important admission than her trying to blame herself for things she couldn't possibly have foreseen. I agree the line is somewhat silly, but the intention behind it isn't.

Following from my perception of Holdo, this line honestly felt out of left field. Up to this point, Holdo had acted on what seemed like pride about running a strict ship. It makes her feel close minded and inflexible. My conclusion then was that she had either purposefully withheld that information in order to teach Poe his place or treated people mechanically on a need to know basis, both of which I saw as bad decisions given the circumstances.

The line is one of the problems with the film anyway. Not because it reveals anything about the speaker but because a character in the movie is telling the audience how they should feel about another character.
There's a lot I like about the film but the Poe "arc" is a waste of time.  Does this guy care that information he leaked lead to the deaths of hundreds of rebels? Doesn't seem to.  Poe was in the wrong, but where is this guy's reckoning? Recognizing Holdo as right and himself as wrong is a very small thing. He should be mad at himself for what he let happen. But his ego is never torn down far enough.

I think the issue here is that there really isn't anything that was done by Holdo that would imply she was right. As you said before, the film expects us to assume she was right all along, but what was she even right about? To have blind faith in your superiors? To escape on stealth transports, which in itself seemed to be Leia's idea to begin with given she is the one who explained it to Poe. Actions speak a lot more than words, but everything about Holdo being a good leader seems to depend on us extrapolating and interpreting from lines given to us. We are told she was the commander for a significant battle. But depending on how you interpret that, it could simply mean she is an excellent tactician, not necessarily someone who can inspire people. The fact that we don't see her successfully raising morale only adds to the idea that she is not the inspirational leader needed for the situation. I will say that her decision to remain to act as a distraction (even as contrived as it is that we are expected to believe that there is no autopilot on ships) demonstrated a quality in her character, and I did mentioned that she redeemed herself in the end.

How did Leia come up with this idea when she was in a coma exactly? She only woke up after the mutiny took place.  Preparations were already well under way.

If you don't believe there is a morale crisis, then of course we are going to disagree on the requirements for being the fleet leader at the moment. But deserters, mutineers, the seemingly hopeless circumstances, and just the general mood of the crew implies to me that morale is at an all time low. Of course you can say the film purposefully withheld the remaining 94% of the crew who are actually joking around and not experiencing a crisis, but that is both incredibly cheap on the part of the film and very hard to believe given the factors at hand.

If there was a morale crisis, the film doesn't properly convey it except for the remark about deserters. The only thing it conveys is that Poe is repeatedly insubordinate.

Ultimately, I reconciled that Holdo was the wrong leader for the circumstances. She seemed like someone who runs a strict ship, likely getting very excellent performance from her crew, but was the wrong person to be leading the Resistance in Leia's place. To me, Holdo comes off as someone who is a little prideful about her command but nonetheless is probably capable as a tactician that unfortunately was forcibly promoted/pushed into a position that she did not have the skills to handle. She is the excellent auxiliary commander that reliably executes the orders from her superiors to an exacting detail but falters when she is expected to be the inspirational leader that keeps people together.

How do you infer that Holdo runs a tight ship when Poe never gets thrown into the brig?

 

Offline Snarks

  • 27
Re: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Not sure how DJ is relevant. Poe transmitted information to Rebels onboard a ship at high risk of being captured. That is beyond stupid. Particularly when Poe already knows that Kylo can just mindrip **** right out of your head having suffered this in TFA.

DJ is the person who ultimately sold them out. I don't believe it's actually quite made clear how the First Order learns about the stealth transports, but it would make sense that DJ past that bit of information along when he was selling out. Plus, he is literally depicted as a sort of super hacker or code breaker. It would seem entirely in line that he hacked into the Resistance's networks and got a hold of the details regarding the stealth transports. And yeah, Poe is stupid and should have been locked up. What's your point there?

If you want to look at the realistic side of things. We know from Grace/Finn that people have been ditching the ship.  Is Holdo going to communicate the plan when people are deserting ship in escape pods? Can those escape pods be captured and their crew interrogated by the FO?

People deserting and the seemingly lack of care about this happening is one reason why I believe Holdo's command was poor. She didn't have to communicate the exact plan, but even offering the idea that there is a plan is far better for morale than her speech about having hope.

The line is one of the problems with the film anyway. Not because it reveals anything about the speaker but because a character in the movie is telling the audience how they should feel about another character.
There's a lot I like about the film but the Poe "arc" is a waste of time.  Does this guy care that information he leaked lead to the deaths of hundreds of rebels? Doesn't seem to.  Poe was in the wrong, but where is this guy's reckoning? Recognizing Holdo as right and himself as wrong is a very small thing. He should be mad at himself for what he let happen. But his ego is never torn down far enough.

If it was done properly, then it wouldn't be a waste of time. But yeah, I echo your sentiment that it felt like wasted screen time since it's not even quite made clear that Poe learned his lesson. I'm pretty sure the intent was that he was supposed to have learned his lesson. If RJ was incharge of the next film, I wouldn't be surprised to see a changed Poe. But I shouldn't have to be watching the next film to know that Poe has developed as a result of what happened in TLJ.

That said, without the Poe subplot, we wouldn't have DJ. I seem to be in the minority opinion here, but I thought DJ was one of the best parts of the film. I wanted to believe that DJ was the next Han Solo or Lando, the rogue with the seemingly mercenary exterior but is actually good on the inside. For a strange moment in the film, my expectations and emotions were in line with the characters on the screen. Like Rose and Finn, I wanted DJ to pull off a daring rescue after a last minute change of heart. But he crushes it. This is the Han Solo that didn't come flying back last minute.

How did Leia come up with this idea when she was in a coma exactly? She only woke up after the mutiny took place.  Preparations were already well under way.

She explained the plan to Poe, with seemingly no time to have learned about it after waking up. I suppose she could have woken up before, gotten briefed about the plan, and just hadn't had the chance to greet the rest of the crew. But that's a lot of blanks to assume. It seemed more to me that the intent was that Leia had it planned all along and that Poe's mutiny was him going against her wishes. Holdo was simply the trusted lieutenant to carry out her plans.

If there was a morale crisis, the film doesn't properly convey it except for the remark about deserters. The only thing it conveys is that Poe is repeatedly insubordinate.

Then we obviously have read the details in the movies differently. What do you want me to say at this point? The body language of the crew, such as Rose crying about the lost of her sister, likely reflecting that several people have lost loved ones, has put the crew's morale at an all time low. Slowly, one by one, the fleet went down from 3 to 1 ship. Each time a ship is left behind and blown up, the survivors are reminded of what seemed to be their pending fate. A bridge controller, someone who is in close contact with Admiral Holdo, is convinced that her own commanding officer does not have a plan that will save them and agrees to join a mutiny, a decision that no sane person would take lightly given the possible consequences of such an action. If these aren't signs that morale is low, then I don't know what you would consider them.

How do you infer that Holdo runs a tight ship when Poe never gets thrown into the brig?

I am told that Holdo is competent at something, but I don't see her demonstrating strong inspirational skills. So the other half of being a commander is being good at planning stuff and tactics. Since the First Order didn't see the hyperspace ram coming, I have to conclude that Holdo used her excellent tactical knowledge to save the remaining survivors by piloting the starship. Since she doesn't take the time to sit Poe down and talk to him one on one, it seems she expects her subordinates to fall in line and trust the leader implicitly, even if it's fairly clear that they don't.

There's this concept of military leaders that postulates that an effective leader understands the seat of his authority. If your soldiers implicitly trust you, then they will follow out your orders. If your soldiers don't trust you but you have force over them, e.g. their paychecks or the potential to line them up against a wall and shoot them for dereliction of duty, then they'll follow out your orders. If you soldiers don't quite trust you, but you can reason with them, perhaps by explaining the plan you have in mind and convincing them that it's a good plan, then they will follow your orders.

For Holdo, she seems to have misjudged the seat of her authority. She obviously doesn't have implicit trust with Poe or even someone on her bridge crew. She also doesn't take the action to put an insubordinate officer into the brig or force him to fall in line by assigning a trusted agent to watch over him. She also doesn't explain anything to him either. It seems to me that she is assuming that she has power by rank alone, which fits that notion of the ineffective military leader who expects obedience by his subordinates without ever ensuring that he does in fact have a seat of power.

Taking these two elements, it definitely seems like Holdo is a very mechanical kind of a leader. She is competent at getting ships to fly when the humans in them aren't complaining but when dealing with crew with rank authority alone isn't enough, bad things seem to happen.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2018, 08:35:14 am by Snarks »

 

Offline karajorma

  • King Louie - Jungle VIP
  • Administrator
  • 214
    • Karajorma's Freespace FAQ
Re: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi
As I mentioned earlier, we're arguing over something that's ultimately going to come down to our personal beliefs and evaluation on what is considered a morale issue. At this point, we've probably picked over all the relevant details to continue this particular branch of the discussion.

Actually no. You keep missing the point I'm arguing. I haven't said that there isn't widespread dissatisfaction on the ship. I've said you have no proof that there is. I'm pointing out that you've made up your entire argument and that the film doesn't bear it out. That's not the same thing as making up my own side of the argument. It's nothing to do with personal beliefs and everything to do with the fact that you're arguing things not in evidence as if they were facts that should be obvious to everyone.

The issue I feel here is that we have different valuation on what actions are more important for the situation at hand. It seems to me that you believe secrecy about the plan was more important here whereas I felt it was unnecessary and actually harmful to the crew's morale. I mentioned that if they even so much as dropped a simple line about there being a potential spy on-board then secrecy would have made a lot more sense. But as it stands, I don't actually see a reason why it would have made any sense. Am I expected to believe that someone in the Resistance was going to open a communications channel with the First Order to sell out their own after hearing about stealth transports? There's no mention of traitors, communication bugs, or anything that would lead to me think secrecy was important at the moment. Everyone onboard has a vested interest to not leak that info. It was only when DJ got involved (who is a mercenary outsider) that the plan was leaked, and as you said, there's no reason for Holdo to expect DJ to even be a factor in the circumstances. For her to have foreseen DJ leaking the plan would require her to also foresee Poe running off and bringing back an outsider.

Akalabeth has basically got to the crux of my argument before I could. People have been deserting the ship. They are being followed by a ship with two mind readers on board. It would literally mean the end of the rebellion if they allow any deserters with knowledge of the plan to get captured by the First Order.

Quote
You keep assuming I'm siding with Poe here.
Quote
Stop treating it as a dichotomy between Poe and Holdo.

You've missed my point again here. I'm simply challenging your assumption that Holdo is a bad leader. I never said you were on Poe's side. Look closely at my argument and you'll see that I've merely pointed out that since we're seeing things from Poe's point of view. Until Leia shoots him we're supposed to believe that he is in the right. Then we're supposed to quickly realise that wasn't the case. The film does a good job of setting up the former but doesn't do as well at the latter. You believe that Holdo was a poor leader because the film sets up that expectation by only showing you things from one point of view. We never got an objective view of what was going on.


[quote I think the issue here is that there really isn't anything that was done by Holdo that would imply she was right. As you said before, the film expects us to assume she was right all along, but what was she even right about? To have blind faith in your superiors? To escape on stealth transports, which in itself seemed to be Leia's idea to begin with given she is the one who explained it to Poe.[/quote]

Leia explains it as being Holdo's plan. Holdo could and probably did explain it to her either before she shot Poe or more likely while he was unconscious. 

Quote
Actions speak a lot more than words, but everything about Holdo being a good leader seems to depend on us extrapolating and interpreting from lines given to us.

Everything about her being a bad leader depends just as much on extrapolating and interpreting from lines given to us. As I keep pointing out, you have no proof that anyone besides Poe (and the people he convinced) had any problem with her.

Quote
If you don't believe there is a morale crisis, then of course we are going to disagree on the requirements for being the fleet leader at the moment. But deserters, mutineers, the seemingly hopeless circumstances, and just the general mood of the crew implies to me that morale is at an all time low. Of course you can say the film purposefully withheld the remaining 94% of the crew who are actually joking around and not experiencing a crisis, but that is both incredibly cheap on the part of the film and very hard to believe given the factors at hand.

I haven't said morale isn't at a low. What I'm arguing is that you don't have any proof that this lack of morale translates into a lack of faith in the leadership. Holdo is quite clearly doing something. She obviously seems to believe that her plan will work. That could easily translate into faith in her. Especially amongst the crew who know that she was Leia's pupil. The remainder of the crew have no other plans, so why would they be against the only person who seems to have a way out of the problem?

This is why I keep pointing out that there is only a very short window between Poe revealing to anyone that he has a different plan and the mutiny happening.

I did in fact said that Leia was partly to blame for the issue, for not being more strict on Poe, for not picking someone who was more charismatic to lead in her place. But she was incapacitated

You've missed my point again. And this time it's especially mystifying how, given that I was quite clearly talking about Poe getting his squadron killed. But to make things clear, Poe along with his entire squadron completely disregard Leia's orders and attack the dreadnought. This results in most of them being killed. Unlike Holdo, Leia does know Poe. If command is supposedly about people, surely this makes Leia a worse leader than Holdo. She has no control over the troops under her command.

But yet it's Holdo you've singled out as the example of a bad commander.


Quote
Ultimately, I reconciled that Holdo was the wrong leader for the circumstances. She seemed like someone who runs a strict ship, likely getting very excellent performance from her crew, but was the wrong person to be leading the Resistance in Leia's place. To me, Holdo comes off as someone who is a little prideful about her command

Not only is that not the view I have of her, but it's directly against the portrayal of her in the film. A strict commander would have thrown Poe in the brig rather than banning him from the bridge. A strict commander would definitely have locked him up had he then barged in and called her a traitor. As for pride, Leia, the only person who appears to know Holdo literally says that she considered saving the resistance more important than looking like a hero.


You're entitled to your opinions on Holdo and were it just about opinions I'd be fine with it, but your opinions contradict the film in multiple places, and that's why I keep feeling the need to point out your mistakes.
Karajorma's Freespace FAQ. It's almost like asking me yourself.

[ Diaspora ] - [ Seeds Of Rebellion ] - [ Mind Games ]

 

Offline karajorma

  • King Louie - Jungle VIP
  • Administrator
  • 214
    • Karajorma's Freespace FAQ
Re: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi
.....and more mistakes to fix. This is getting like the Aegean Stables. :p

he is literally depicted as a sort of super hacker or code breaker. It would seem entirely in line that he hacked into the Resistance's networks and got a hold of the details regarding the stealth transports.

DJ overhears Poe explaining about the transports when Poe talks to him over the radio. Leia explains that the First Order isn't looking for small shuttles. Why are you inventing this hacking nonsense?

Quote
People deserting and the seemingly lack of care about this happening is one reason why I believe Holdo's command was poor. She didn't have to communicate the exact plan, but even offering the idea that there is a plan is far better for morale than her speech about having hope.

A speech she gives to ONE person when their faith in her is wavering. She IS telling Poe that she has a plan. But as usual, he gets the wrong end of the stick and thinks he knows what that plan is.

Quote
She explained the plan to Poe, with seemingly no time to have learned about it after waking up. I suppose she could have woken up before, gotten briefed about the plan, and just hadn't had the chance to greet the rest of the crew. But that's a lot of blanks to assume. It seemed more to me that the intent was that Leia had it planned all along and that Poe's mutiny was him going against her wishes. Holdo was simply the trusted lieutenant to carry out her plans.

We have the entire time Poe is unconscious until he is loaded onto the transport for Holdo to explain the plan to Leia. Whereas from the moment that Leia realises that they are being tracked she is busy with the battle against the First Order and then gets wheeled away unconscious. I won't deny it's possible that she regains consciousness, gets updated on what is going on, tells someone her plan and then falls unconscious again.  But do you see what I mean about you inventing stuff and insisting that it must be true when the film doesn't support it?
Karajorma's Freespace FAQ. It's almost like asking me yourself.

[ Diaspora ] - [ Seeds Of Rebellion ] - [ Mind Games ]