Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => Gaming Discussion => Topic started by: Sandwich on November 30, 2006, 07:26:22 am
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http://www.escapistmagazine.com/print/72/14
What do you think?
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He's right. It's a business and we're not representitive.
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Absobloodylutely. It's fans that lead to Epic making games with gigantic chrome crotchguards and any game starring a 'street' personality.
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I resent the stereotype of hardcore gamers "screaming and yelling" whenever they get to a point that they can't overcome. Yes, I know there are plenty of kids doing just that, but I wouldn't call them "hardcore", I'd call them: "whiners pretending to be hardcore".
Other than that, I think it was a legitimate claim. The people on the message boards do not represent the opinions of gamers as a whole. Therefore they shouldn't be treated as the definitive view of the entire gaming community.
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i read the first 2 paragraphs and the rest was like: bla bla bla blaaaablablabla :/
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I resent the very concept of 'hardcore' in gaming.
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I automatically ignore someone who starts 'yelling' in the first place, I don't think I could ever say something was wrong with a game without giving a specific reason why I think it's wrong.
I suppose it's sort of like all the arguments on what is 'canon' and what isn't, and not just in the case of Freespace, I've seen these arguments flare up on Star Wars, Star Trek, BSG and several other boards, and it really is a pointless argument. Canon is what the developers of the game/mod say it is.
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While I must agree to some extent that listening to the vocal minority has lead gaming where it is today, and where it is today sucks, they make a fatal error in that article.
They advocate the elimination of using members of the public to beta test. I'm sorry, but that just can't lead anywhere good. Q&A is too important to be left in the hands of those trained for it. Professionals are predictable; the world is full of dangerous amateurs, and those are the people you need to worry about.
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I resent the very concept of 'hardcore' in gaming.
You and all the other people who complained about Hot Coffee. :p
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You need only look at something like Neverwinter Nights to see how wrong those sentiments can be. Sure, the majority of people on gaming forums are idiots, but developers are generally smart people (although one ironically named exception comes to mind, heh heh) and they're quite capable of filtering out the genuinely good suggestions from the bad.
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Yep. And the ones incapable of figuring out what is a bad suggestion will still be incapable of doing it when another dev suggests it instead of a fan.
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I resent the very concept of 'hardcore' in gaming.
You and all the other people who complained about Hot Coffee. :p
Pff.
That was softcore.
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Ultimately, game fans end up demanding so much more than they "need" and you end up getting alot of "wouldn't it be great if FS2 was an RTS? Can we change the engine to do that?"
Feedback is great, but you can;t please everyone and you should never try if you expect to ship a coherent, finished product in any kind of reasonable amount of time.
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True but some of those suggestions are good ones. And some of the complaints are legitimate and will be repeated by the majority of the public if they aren't addressed by the developer.
SadisticSid is right on the money. You shouldn't just ignore the hardcore gamer. You need to know when to ignore the hardcore gamer.
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I don't think the onus is on the gamers to shut up totally. Gamers, at least those who want to be taken seriously (like us here, we're a pretty decent bunch), should and usually do present their issues in clear and well thought out comments.
The bigger responsibility is on the developer to not react to your 11 year old gamer whining about his own lack of skill....or to the gamer who just dislikes that kind of game. both are pretty simple to spot. usually their sentences start "THIS GAME IS $&!~...."
The article is good in that the developers should have a clarity of vision and not depart from it. the article is not good in that it paints ALL gamers as whiny, useless, unreliable, and detrimental. That clearly is untrue. if we were that, FS2 would likely have been forgotten many years ago in favour of something with more sparkles... The real hardcore cares about their game, and wants the best for it.
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Too often, though, perfectly good games get confused, turned around and bashed over the head by those who claim to love them most. It's tragic, really. They enter beta, with all their bright ideas and shiny new toys and then some 14-year-old screams, "This sucks!" At a company with strong leadership and vision, this is read, digested and considered, but rarely do they succumb to the mighty weight of one 14-year-old and a few of his buddies. At a not-so-steady company, a post or 10 like that can be fatal.
I have never done that...
If the beta feedback includes reasons why they thought it was bad (good reasons I mean), then it is useful.
Most of the time.
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Problem is, if people got everything they wanted in a game, they get a Jack of All Trades and Master of None, and then they complain about the 'average graphics', 'too much micromanagement' etc. People think they want it all, and then realise they have to do it all.
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You mean like Universal Combattlecruiser 1500000AD?
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More or less, yes, I'm sure every developer would like to write a game like BC3000AD, and I don't mean that as a joke, but the problems DS has encountered is exactly the reason most gaming companies have to force limits on themselves.
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did you just say DEREK SMART? :shaking:
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he didn't but you did
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If you're releasing a video game, the people that are considering buying the game have already read a review about it from somewhere, and are anticipating release. What gamer's don't want is a game that's buggy, unbalanced, and unoriginal. We don't want to play the same game with the same storyline with different weapons and better graphics. Developers need to listen to those people that say something along these lines:
"This game is unbalanced. I was able to kill 20 people with the rocket launcher. Perhaps take down the splash damage. Or put in an anti-rocket weapon in the game"
Game developers release betas to see what's wrong with the game's balance, what bugs are present, etc. They shouldn't listen to the whiners saying how bad the graphics are compared to such and such game, or say "This sucks" without giving a reason why.
Finally, a true hard-core gamer will be able to play a game, complain about some small little detail, compliment one of the grand release points, and not criticize the developers. True hard-core gamers realize that there's no such thing as a perfect game, so they love the good stuff, ignore the petty stuff (and report the petty stuff to the developer for fixing, in a nice way), and play the game over and over and over and over again. Then, when the developer releases a new game, or perhaps a sequel, will love the good stuff, ignore the petty stuff (and report the petty stuff to the developer for fixing, in a nice way), and play the game over and over and over again. The ONE time a true hard-core game WILL criticize the developer is when the developer doesn't listen to the problem from the previous game and fix it in the next game. Hard-core gamers have good memories.
Game developers in NO way, shape, or form ignore their fans completely, just filter out the nasty 14-year-olds saying "This sucks" and listen to the more mature (16-year-olds like me ;7) video gamers...
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There are times to, and not to listen to fans.
For a game like Sword of the Stars, listening to fans is crucial to building a more complete game. But at the same time the comments taken need to be in the context of having a combat-focused game, not turning it into GalCiv.
For World of Warcraft... the fans need to be shot... Everquest needs to be shot... the developers from Everquest or who were hardcore Everquest players need to be double-shot. While the game is generally fine, it doesn't live up even partially to its potential of having real world PvP objectives. The Warcraft half. (admittedly I'd also revamp most of the terrain to remove half of the mountain ranges that artificially split regions up, so that when mountains exist they're a legitimate terrain feature instead of a bounding box)
The Tribes community... same. Look at Tribes 1, the hardcore fans demanded a bug was kept that completely changed the design of the game. Now tons of equipment, vehicles, and weapons were useless with 'skiing.' Tribes 2 tried to keep the original gameplay ideas while keeping skiing.
Tribes Vengeance, made by those hardcore fans for hardcore fans... well we all know how popular it wound up being.
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I'm not saying that Developers should listen to the whiners. Listen to the gamers that actually care about how good the game is. The other fans, like you said, should be shot.
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Raise your hand if you read the article ;)
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*Dark Hunter raises hand*
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Go Galactic Civilizations 2!
...that's all I have to say, really.
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*Spartan Raises Hand*
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I got through half of it before I went and did something better - eating pumpkin pie.
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Raise your hand if you read the article ;)
o/
Did you?
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I play gal civ 2, I play guild wars, and I beta test, jesus do I beta test
I have seen developers integrate my suggestions, and the suggestions of others into several games
I have seen it go well, I have seen it go poorly
but it goes well FAR more often than it goes poorly
I have also seen ivory tower devs, developers who, no matter what, will not listen to their community <SWG making millions of combined play hours worthless>
and I will tell you RIGHT now, no matter how long that goes, no matter how much money they are given, that never turns out well
the dev cannot see the game from every angle, cannot see every pixel from every angle like the community can, cannot watch every hour of gameplay, cannot see every exploit
devs are not god, and in effect, this journalist, who is also not god, is wrong
did read btw
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Did you?
Yes, but is obvious that not everyone passionately responding did ;)
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Read it. Agreed with it.
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Video game development, as an industry, is incredibly immature. At a recent Boston IGDA meeting, the IGDA spokesperson, that Della Roca guy, was advocating people start doing rapid and iterative development.
A software development methodology that is at least 15 years old in the form he was advocating. We play catch up in development, we play catch up in marketing and public relations.
Focus groups and representative slices ARE the way to get useful feedback. Seeking people outside the typical eager beta user is critical for a titles success. You can't build any product that only satisfies a small percentage of your target market and expect it to succeed. So you can't let those people dictate development. You can't always be reacting to those criticisms. Drop everything and add an economy model to FS2 is not the way to get anything substative done in a project like the SCP, and the SCP itself is entirely focused on satisfying "hardcore" fans. If it can't work there (consistently), it can't work anywhere, especially a commercial venture.
We had a bull**** filter when we did Lore. We had community relations people, and then we had meetings where we actually sifted thru the drek that was most of the comments. We were definitely using the community for feedback and ideas, but you have to have that bull**** filter if you are going to succeed (not that I would call Lore a financial success by any stretch). Even with our filter, we ended up with some bad design choices because we paid TOO much attention to those hardcore players. Stuff that didn't become evident until we had large scale battles, or non hardcore people finally playing. Balance issues, level design, you name it. We should have stuck more to our guns than we did, and it ended up costing us.
Far too many developers build their designs around reacting to perceptions of a very, very small slice of folks.
Build a game, make it playable, then find alot of DIFFERENT people to play it and use THAT feedback.
Sadly, that will take just as long to sink in for this industry as "rapid development" is taking ;)
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re-reading what I posted and it sounds like I agree with the article 100%, I don't, there IS a place for hardcore feedback, its just got to be weighted equally with other feedback. I'm like 95% with him.
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The article only makes sense.
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when they re-invented the Battlestar Galactica series the hardcore fans were pissed, I mean just plain pissed off, they heard Starbuck was going to be a women and went crazy.
during a press junket for the show Edward James Almos stood up and said if you liked the original Battlestar Galactica then don't bother watching this one......
the new BSG guys were pissed, Almos was laughing and the fans stormed about spewing absurdity..... and you know what?
90% of them love the new series while the other 10% whine and complain while they watch it right alongside a huge addition of non hardcore fans who enjoy the show.
I remember when Harley Davidson riders used to whine about the Evolution series motors because "real Harley" riders rode and fixed their bikes while the Evolutioin series were far more reliable and oil tight.......
during the hardcore days Harley was baught by a bowling ball manufacturer and subsequently run into the ground while building those pieces of crap unreliable oil spilling "hardcore" bikes......now Harley is making boatloads of cash and their bikes are in demand.
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It's Olmos.
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It's Olmos.
dam.... we'll someone better notify his family and I'll have to schedule a meeting with Jessie Jackson to atone, possibly schedule a few days at the Ambassador hotel for media interviews to explain my error and offer my apology.
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On the other hand, totally ignoring the fans gets you...Sony.
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great limited availability, overpriced and late.
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It's Olmos.
dam.... we'll someone better notify his family and I'll have to schedule a meeting with Jessie Jackson to atone, possibly schedule a few days at the Ambassador hotel for media interviews to explain my error and offer my apology.
It's damn.
Unless you want to provide hydroelectricity or keep the Netherlands dry.
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And well. :D
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Dare I mention that you start a sentence with a capital letter? :nervous: :p
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It's the grammar police!
Run before Goober gets here!
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"I'm here to arrest you for murdering the English langauge"?
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"I'm here to arrest you for murdering the English langauge"?
:eek:!
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He only winged it with that. :)
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"I'm here to arrest you for murdering the English langauge"?
:eek:!
I plead it being two in the morning.
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It's damn.
Unless you want to provide hydroelectricity or keep the Netherlands dry.
dam.... we'll someone better notify the original author/s of the words dam and damn as they may all be wounded and I'll have to schedule a meeting with Jessie Jackson to atone, possibly schedule a few days at the Ambassador hotel for media interviews to explain my error and offer my apology.
p.s. yes I know.
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*Points to the Derek Smart thread*
Surely that alone is enough to prove that sometimes the Hardcore gamers get it right :)
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*Points to the Derek Smart thread*
Surely that alone is enough to prove that sometimes the Hardcore gamers get it right :)
Ah, but you forget the ego-massaging Derek Smart hardcore fans (erk - now 'Derek Smart hardcore' isn't a phrase I want to write)
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I only said they sometimes get it right. :)
Besides we all know the ego-massaging fans are bots anyway.
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I only said they sometimes get it right. :)
Besides we all know the ego-massaging fans are bots anyway.
or alternate nicks of person who's getting their ego stroked.....
("ego-masterbation?") :nervous: