[noodle]

Again, I have actually read through all the tech entries. I fully understand your explanations for the war. I just don't buy them.

For example, I fail to see how the spreading of Ubuntu (which I also don't buy would happen, but whatever) would negatively impact humanities ability to respond to another Shivan incursion. People wouldn't suddenly forget about the fact that the aliens practically steamrolled them in every encounter and glassed a whole planet. What does the GTVA think is going to happen, military spending is going to be cut? As for people relocating en masse to Sol, I think that's a pretty big leap of logic. I'm sure some people would, maybe even a lot of people, but the idea that so many people would move as to threaten the stability of the GTVA is rather absurd, especially since Ubuntu isn't particularly Earth-centric a philosophy and could work (or not work) anywhere.

As for the GTVA being the villain, now we're just arguing semantics. Fine, 'antagonist' if you prefer. I think the bigger issue for me isn't so much that I like the GTVA as I flat-out dislike the UEF and their idiotic viewpoint. The descriptions of it in the tech room and how it ushered in a new era of prosperity and understanding make me laugh, because they resemble the promises of what Communism would do, and which it completely failed to deliver on.

[MatthTheGeek]

[General Battuta]

For example, I fail to see how the spreading of Ubuntu (which I also don't buy would happen, but whatever) would negatively impact humanities ability to respond to another Shivan incursion.

It might not, on its own; but the socioeconomic impact would. GTVA citizens would emigrate to Sol, en masse. Sol's economy would collapse - Ubuntu models aren't calibrated for that kind of influx. Meanwhile the GTVA's economy would also collapse, and the GTVA would dissolve into martial law and civil war.

Game over.

People wouldn't suddenly forget about the fact that the aliens practically steamrolled them in every encounter and glassed a whole planet. What does the GTVA think is going to happen, military spending is going to be cut?

The GTVA's citizenry is on the edge of revolt. As the techroom makes clear, the citizens of the GTVA blame the government for mishandling the Second Shivan Incursion, blame their hubris for the loss of Capella, and believe they cannot stop a Third Incursion - if it ever comes.

As for people relocating en masse to Sol, I think that's a pretty big leap of logic. I'm sure some people would, maybe even a lot of people, but the idea that so many people would move as to threaten the stability of the GTVA is rather absurd, especially since Ubuntu isn't particularly Earth-centric a philosophy and could work (or not work) anywhere.

Rewatch the FreeSpace 2 intro. Reread the techroom data. The citizens of the GTVA are depressed, desperate, terrified of the outside universe, and - thanks to the policies that helped unify them for long enough for the Sol Gate to be built - completely obsessed with going home to the Blue Planet.

They idealize Earth. They remember dreams of humanity everlasting, they remember seeing the future of their race in the embers of dying stars - but Capella just crushed them. It was a slap in the face, a message that their expansion into the universe was a futile, self-destructive crusade against an omnipotent and omnicidal menace.

This is a monster of the GTVA's own creation. They had no hold on the hearts and minds of their citizens, so they implemented the Petrarch doctrine: 'Stay cool and stay loyal, guys, we're gonna get you home.'

You're fighting canon here. The Neo-Terran Front promised a new Earth and caused civil war. The GTVA itself has now promised the real Earth for 18 years. It is the hope that makes life worth living for these terrified people.

As for the GTVA being the villain, now we're just arguing semantics. Fine, 'antagonist' if you prefer. I think the bigger issue for me isn't so much that I like the GTVA as I flat-out dislike the UEF and their idiotic viewpoint. The descriptions of it in the tech room and how it ushered in a new era of prosperity and understanding make me laugh, because they resemble the promises of what Communism would do, and which it completely failed to deliver on.

I already told you that you're misreading the UEF. I don't understand how a neocapitalist government that pumps enormous amounts of money into education, industry, and scientific research resembles your notion of Communism. Ubuntu's rhetoric and ideology is closer to American city-on-a-hill talk crossed with Nelson Mandela.

[noodle]

Nelson Mandela

Ugh. I hate that guy.

[General Battuta]

I want you to imagine that you were born in a tiny hut outside a huge house.

There are some other huts around - it's a little village. All around you is an enormous wood full of wolves.

When you're a baby, your parents and the other adults see a wolf, put together a hunting pack, and go out to try to kill the wolves. They come back screaming. An impossibly huge pack of wolves follows them, rips apart one of the huts, eat the babies inside, then transforms into a giant wolf-o-matic attack helicopter and flies away, boggling you with their magic.

You grow up terrified of the wolves, angry at your miserable little huts, and pissed at your parents, who tell you you've got to train to fight wolves every day.

You ask them what's in the big house. 'Oh,' they say, 'it was such a great place. Amazing. And when we lived there it was a better time, and we were invincible. But we locked the door and lost the key, so we can't go back. We just need to find the key again'.

Then one day your parents, after listening at the door for a while, find the key and open the big house. They go in.

When they come back out they say "Well, everyone in there lives in comfort, with all the food they want and huge warm beds. They have parties every Friday and there are no wolves."

You ask to go into the house.

"No," they say, "we need to fortify the edges of our clearing and build up all these huts and get ready for more wolves. Can't go into the house."

You don't like this, not at all. You suggest: "If we got in there, we could lock the door and the wolves could never get in."

"Not an option," they say. "For all we know those transforming wolfpacks can transform into a battering ram or some crazy wolf **** like that."

After a hasty conference they come back and tell you: "Oh, and by the way, the house is run by evil pedophiles. We're just going to go in and clear them out, Then it'll all be fine and the people in the house can come help us."

You are suspicious.

And that's basically the perspective of the GTVA citizenry right now.

Nelson Mandela

Ugh. I hate that guy.

DO YOU HATE AMERICA!?

[General Battuta]

by the way this is as you as a SEXP 

<an entity>

Ugh. I hate <that entity>.

[-Norbert-]

DO YOU HATE AMERICA!?

Hating America is something I can understand, even when not sharing the feeling. But why would anyone, other than a racist, dictator or religious fanatic hate Mandela?

[General Battuta]

DO YOU HATE AMERICA!?

Hating America is something I can understand, even when not sharing the feeling. But why would anyone, other than a racist, dictator or religious fanatic hate Mandela?

because he's black duh

Actually hating America is a good example of something else that's important about this war. There are probably many citizens of Sol who are not happy with the direction the UEF has taken (though given the economic benefits not THAT many). Many of them will nonetheless support the war vs. the GTVA, for the same reason that many of the people who are not happy with the direction America has taken today would nonetheless get behind 'America the nation' rather than 'the Obama administration' if we were invaded by Trinidad and Tobago.

[noodle]

Any of you actually read up on Mandela? Generally all you ever hear about him is how he's a hero who spent several decades in prison. Do you know why he was in prison? Because he was the best bomb maker in the ANC, he ran a 20 year bombing campaign. In 1985 they offered to let him out of prison if he 'unconditionally rejected violence as a political weapon'.

He refused.

The guy is a ****ing terrorist who become president because a bunch of uneducated yokels suddenly got the right to vote and believed the highly effective propaganda that made him out to be some kind of messianic figure. He was also an utter failure as a leader. Every problem that South Africa had when he took office it still has, and in many cases it's gotten worse. The slums continue to spread outside Johannesburg, the divide between the rich and poor continues to grow and society becomes more stratified by the day, the country remains the rape capital of the world, and in fact is the birthplace of so-called 'corrective rape'.

The only meaningful export that country seems to have is its weapons industry, which is itself a very sad commentary on the state of affairs there.

I could also tell you how Gandhi was a racist pedophile who stood by while the actual heroes of the movement were martyred so he could advance his own position and power.

[General Battuta]

Any of you actually read up on Mandela? Generally all you ever hear about him is how he's a hero who spent several decades in prison. Do you know why he was in prison? Because he was the best bomb maker in the ANC, he ran a 20 year bombing campaign. In 1985 they offered to let him out of prison if he 'unconditionally rejected violence as a political weapon'.

He refused.

The guy is a ****ing terrorist who become president because a bunch of uneducated yokels suddenly got the right to vote and believed the highly effective propaganda that made him out to be some kind of messianic figure. He was also an utter failure as a leader. Every problem that South Africa had when he took office it still has, and in many cases it's gotten worse. The slums continue to spread outside Johannesburg, the divide between the rich and poor continues to grow and society becomes more stratified by the day, the country remains the rape capital of the world, and in fact is the birthplace of so-called 'corrective rape'.

The only meaningful export that country seems to have is its weapons industry, which is itself a very sad commentary on the state of affairs there.

I could also tell you how Gandhi was a racist pedophile who stood by while the actual heroes of the movement were martyred so he could advance his own position and power.

Cool story, bro. I picked Mandela as an example because he's from Africa and so is the original Ubuntu ideology. You can start a new thread if you want to talk about this though. You forgot Mother Theresa, she was a bit of a ***** too.

Of course your reaction to Mandela here is symptomatic of your problem: I said that Ubuntu rhetoric and ideology was akin to Mandela rhetoric and espoused ideology, not that the UEF was akin to South Africa or that Martin Mandho WAS NELSON MANDELA (omg!). Why the **** you'd feel the need to go off about South Africa's sociopolitical problems is beyond me.

Look, I'd just leave this off at a lrn2rd, but here's some science for ya.

If you're determined not to like something, you're not gonna like it. If you're determined not to believe something, you're not gonna believe it. No single idea, theory, religion or ideology in history has ever managed to convince everyone on the planet. You're in an affect heuristic death spiral, and baby, we're not your recovery plan.

If BP's history isn't working for you, so be it. We've already expended a novella's worth of words on it. If you don't buy it by now, you're not going to.

But ask yourself: are you jumping at shadows? The justifications War in Heaven presents for its war are infinitely more complex and plausible than FreeSpace 2's NTF background. You can set your standards arbitrarily high, but at some point they just become surplus to requirements.

[noodle]

Well the NTF has basically no fluff at all, they just don't go into much depth about it.

Anyway, as for BP. Maybe I'm wrong. Tell you what, I'll take back all I said, and give both games another thorough play-through, and not give a final verdict on the story as a whole until the final BP campaign is released.

Speaking of which, will WiH part 2 be the finale, or will there be another full campaign after it, and part 2 is actually just the second half of WiH because WiH is longer than AoA was?

[Snail]

Well the NTF has basically no fluff at all, they just don't go into much depth about it.

You know I think you're the first person I've met who can write without being able to read. Might explain the content of your posts too.

[Herra Tohtori]

Blue Planet 2: War in Heaven is released in two parts, Part 1 (which is out) and Part 2 (in developement).

The trilogy will be completed in Blue Planet 3.

[General Battuta]

Well the NTF has basically no fluff at all, they just don't go into much depth about it.

Anyway, as for BP. Maybe I'm wrong. Tell you what, I'll take back all I said, and give both games another thorough play-through, and not give a final verdict on the story as a whole until the final BP campaign is released.

Speaking of which, will WiH part 2 be the finale, or will there be another full campaign after it, and part 2 is actually just the second half of WiH because WiH is longer than AoA was?

I appreciate that. And honestly for all the trolling and flaming in this thread, it's been sort of weirdly pleasant. It's fun to stress-test our backstory on a hostile party.

I doubt we'll be able to satisfy you in the end, but hey, you can't please everyone.

And that was exactly my point about the NTF. They have no fluff. If you ***** about the story with the complex fluff (BP) and then give the story with no fluff a free pass, what kind of message are you sending? 'Don't bother, man, it's not even worth it'.

[Spoon]

Well the NTF has basically no fluff at all, they just don't go into much depth about it.

You know I think you're the first person I've met who can write without being able to read. Might explain the content of your posts too.

I too must admit, I'm quite amazed at this.
I will just sum up nooble with one picture

[Snail]

This shall henceforth be named the Noodle Incident.

[Herra Tohtori]

Come on guys, he might have some trollish behavioural patterns but you aren't exactly showing good form either.

He already acknowledged that he doesn't know the whole story and will give the whole thing another playthrough, which if he was a pure troll he wouldn't do.

Stop ragging on him and get on with the conversation.

[General Battuta]

This shall henceforth be named the Noodle Incident.

[Dilmah G]

Come on guys, he might have some trollish behavioural patterns but you aren't exactly showing good form either.

He already acknowledged that he doesn't know the whole story and will give the whole thing another playthrough, which if he was a pure troll he wouldn't do.

Stop ragging on him and get on with the conversation.

I was going to came back to say this.

So instead I'm going to +1 it.

[Quanto]

Guys...

Its time to pull out all the stops. Because it is obvious he is picking our careful arguments apart and ignoring them altogether.