[Flipside]

I think the concept of multiplicative growth will apply to almost any race, any race that cannot expand exponentially is pretty much doomed, it's a basic biological urge, and space and resources will, I suspect, become a premium in any society after a time. I would say that speculation about colonizing other worlds is a perfectly natural and standard stage in the development of any intelligent species.

[headdie]

each Shivan encounter has involved a ship class bigger than anything the GT - PV - GTVA has been able to field

FS1 Lucifer
FS2 Sath

so there would probably be something new and bigger (especially as i assume they would have 30+ years to build them)

maybe some kind of world ship acting as a mobile near self sufficient colony easily capable of defending itself and being full of "civilian" shivans give a moral dilemma for the alliance about destroying it

[Commander Zane]

To where? He postulated all the other stars are dead.

But he didn't postulate that we populated the ENTIRE universe, stars take so damn long before they die you could have the entire exodus well out of the supernova's range long before it ever happens.

[Snail]

As for the question about Entropy, we are talking hundreds of billions of years in the future, for all we know Asimov is right, and 'God' is the sum total of all the races in the previous universe, evolved to the point of being Creators and generating a new Universe when the last one collapses, thus we become our own Gods

Oooh. Maybe I should start reading Asimov...

[headdie]

there is a very good reason to why Asimov is the king of sci-fi  

[General Battuta]

To where? He postulated all the other stars are dead.

But he didn't postulate that we populated the ENTIRE universe, stars take so damn long before they die you could have the entire exodus well out of the supernova's range long before it ever happens.

You need an education in astrophysics.

The heat death of the universe will reach a phase wherein all stars, everywhere, are dead. This isn't a matter of distance, it's a matter of time, and every point in the universe ages at (more or less) the same rate.

Moreover, this has nothing to do with supernovae, which further betrays the fact that you have no understanding of the area you're trying to tackle. Supernovae are rare events, and most stars won't go out that way.

[Commander Zane]

Even so, it's still a long ass time, whether or not it reaches a point where humans get splashed by some alien race or we do it ourselves, it's unlikely, more like not going to happen, that we'll die because of the stars.

[General Battuta]

Please read the post you're discussing:

So let's say we do invent great space travel some day and colonize other planets and even solar systems. Our sun will still die one day, and so will all the other stars.

What do you do?

Then go look up the definition of a 'premise'.

Let me know when you're certain you understand it. 

[NGTM-1R]

It's more a matter of 'would every race have that drive to leave its homeworld'.

That's more dependent I think on how they become extinct. If they blow themselves up, it's unlikely.

If they have to face planetary resource depletion, there's really no reason to believe they won't go to space.

In fact, I think the whole conception of "some species won't go to space" is really more easily divisible to "some species won't develop technology". Any that does is going to have developed the capablity for spaceflight as a natural consequence of transportation efforts; any that develops the capability for spaceflight is going to find it easier to use that for something then to do it on the ground eventually.

Whether, of course, such a thing as a species that won't develop technology is even possible is still unknown. On the one hand, we may be talking about dolphins here. On the other, us.

[General Battuta]

We still haven't done anything with spaceflight and we don't know that we will...which is pretty strong evidence against drawing any conclusions here.

[NGTM-1R]

We still haven't done anything with spaceflight and we don't know that we will...which is pretty strong evidence against drawing any conclusions here.

But we could, we have the means and the technology or can develop it, and eventually we will find it easier to find, say, titanium on the Moon, then we will on Earth. And then we will go. You can bank on it.

The only thing that will stop us is if we, ourselves, stop. There is no reason to believe we, or any other species, will ever do otherwise.

[General Battuta]

We still haven't done anything with spaceflight and we don't know that we will...which is pretty strong evidence against drawing any conclusions here.

But we could, we have the means and the technology or can develop it, and eventually we will find it easier to find, say, titanium on the Moon, then we will on Earth. And then we will go. You can bank on it.

The only thing that will stop us is if we, ourselves, stop. There is no reason to believe we, or any other species, will ever do otherwise.

Until it happens, we don't have any evidence for it, and even then, we're postulating from a sample size of one.

[Aardwolf]

Ok, consider how tiny changes in the past 2000 years of human history could have changed stuff.

First off, if Lenin had never come to power (actually, that was part of the premise of the Resistance series)... World War I would have ended sooner because the Allies would have had Russia's help on the Eastern Front, right? So Russia is still under the rule of the Czar, and the entire cold war never happens.

Or maybe in response to Russia's not leaving WWI to go be commies, Germany's strategy would have changed so much that they could have won. So Hitler doesn't have a Kampf to write about. Nobody else writes Mein Kampf either because the Germans aren't resenting the treatment they've been getting after their defeat. World War II never happens. Operation Sea Lion, the balloon barrage, and buzz bombs never happen either. Hitler isn't frustrated with the inefficacy of buzz bombs, so he doesn't force Wernher von Braun to design the V2 for him. No race against the Nazi's to develop the atom bomb or any of that either. After the lack of World War II, the Russians, living in their home country, Germany, aren't in the cold war with us.

Either way, there's no cold war. No politicans or military strategists marketing the need to control outer space to the President of the United States. Wernher von Braun never invented the V2, and most people don't even believe the physics behind a rocket would even work, let alone be enough to get from one continent to another.

Oh, and "colonizing other planets"? Let's just say if you asked anyone, they'd think you're crazy.

Now of course I've given myself some generous points here, particularly how much of the technology developed between WWI and the Cold War went undeveloped or unresearched. But the point is none the less valid: if the way such a small span of time as the Cold War plays out (small compared to how long man has been around) can have such big effects on technology and is probably the single biggest reason anyone on earth even seriously talks about colonizing other planets, to argue that aliens from some other planet (if they even exist) are as interested in space travel as we... it's awfully self centered.

Look up "strong anthropic principle" if you ever feel like adventuring outside the box.

[Killer Whale]

Good one, what I couldn't say because I'm not smart enough.

Think of the Hitchhiker's guide to the Galaxy. I know it's a silly story, but the part I quote is perfectly likely. The world the Krikkiters inhabited was engulfed in a dust field which blocked out the sun and space. As a result, the sky was dark and dull. As long as the starship hadn't crashed into it, which was done intentionally to provoke them mind you, they would never have even thought of flying or entering space. Yet they were still a highly advanced civilisation of intelligent life. An example of a race that never thinks of entering space.

[redsniper]

So we know that even if you manage to avoid all other calamaties and disasters, eventually you'll have to face the death of all stars, and the death of the universe.

But what if you could find some way to solve this problem too? To what lengths would you go to ensure it works? Would any means be justified to try and hold off the ultimate end?

[Killer Whale]

Okay, so now your saying that an intelligent species must be able to survive the end of the universe, if it's not, it will die? So I guess we're not an intelligent species as we will probably die at or most likely before the end of the universe?

[High Max]

;-)

[redsniper]

Okay, so now your saying that an intelligent species must be able to survive the end of the universe, if it's not, it will die? So I guess we're not an intelligent species as we will probably die at or most likely before the end of the universe?

No

[Killer Whale]

  So what's that got to do with with intelligent life hafting (spellchecker says it a word, so I dunno) to leave the planet it lived on sooner or later?

[redsniper]

So what's that got to do with with intelligent life hafting (spellchecker says it a word, so I dunno) to leave the planet it lived on sooner or later?

Beats me. If you look back, you'll see I never really got involved in that argument. I'm not saying the ability to leave one's planet or survive the end of the universe has any bearing on intelligence either way. I'm just saying that even if you overcome global warming, nuclear war, asteroids crashing into us, the sun exploding, the Milky Way colliding with Andromeda, Shivans, Borg, and whatever other dangers are out there, it means frak-all versus the heat death of the universe.

Furthermore, since that would be the end of everyone and everything, would any price be too great to pay in order to avoid it?