Author Topic: B-Wing question  (Read 10889 times)

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Offline chief1983

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I was looking at our current model for the B-Wing with a friend of mine, and he pointed out that the missile hardpoints were terribly wrong, as they appeared to be coming out of the engine area.  I happen to agree that this is what appears to be happening, and that they need to be properly placed.  So, I've edited the POF file.  Now, on a B-Wing, the two secondary hardpoints are very far from each other.  This could create an odd situation for the pilot.  So, I want to ask everyone's opinion on both the accuracy and playability of the two designs.  There is an image of them below.

http://swc.fs2downloads.com/media/screenshots/Fighters-Rebel/B-Wing/bwing-oldhardpoints.jpg
http://swc.fs2downloads.com/media/screenshots/Fighters-Rebel/B-Wing/bwing-newhardpoints.jpg

If they're both wrong and the secondary hardpoints go somewhere else entirely please let me know on that as well.

edit:  DOH!  fixed the links.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2007, 10:15:48 am by chief1983 »
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Offline Herra Tohtori

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Perhaps you should link to JPG's instead of the PNG's.

Are you sure that the wingtip missile launcher even exists? AFAIK the B-Wing has proton torpedo launchers on top of the engine block, right where the above hardpoint is now. In my opinion there's no valid reason for the other hardpoint to exist. Just make the above one a dual launcher. SW fighters only usually carry one type of ordnance anyway, so there's no need for two slots.
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Offline aRaven

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the 2nd launcher is in the pod at the end of the middle wing, right next to the heavy laser cannon. XWAU has it right

btw: i can't see anything on the 2nd pic.

 

Offline chief1983

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Try again.  For some reason I linked to the thumbnails instead of the images themselves.  If aRaven is right, then I believe that's where I put the second launcher, besides the one above the engine area.  There were two similar extrusions on the model, small round holes I guess, one above the engine area, and an identical one at the end of that middle wing.  That's where I moved the two missile hardpoints to.
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Nuclear1:  Jesus Christ zack you're a little too hamyurger for HLP right now...
iamzack:  i dont have hamynerge i just want ptatoc hips D:
redsniper:  Platonic hips?!
iamzack:  lays

 
if you look at mine in the other thread the missile tubes are those tubes that on your model are attached to the side of the fuselage, they should be full cylinders and not attached halfway into the mesh.

 

Offline chief1983

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You mean something like this?

http://swc.fs2downloads.com/media/screenshots/Fighters-Rebel/B-Wing/bwing-hardpointsv3.jpg

If that's the case, what are those openings for between those two tubes and at the end of the middle wing?  Does anyone have a reference for this?  I can't seem to turn much up so far.
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Nuclear1:  Jesus Christ zack you're a little too hamyurger for HLP right now...
iamzack:  i dont have hamynerge i just want ptatoc hips D:
redsniper:  Platonic hips?!
iamzack:  lays

 
theyre just heavy cannons, while the cannons on the nose of the cockpit are ion cannons but one of the wing cannons on the middle wing might be a ion cannon.

 

Offline MetalDestroyer

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To me, the torpedo launcher are placed in the 8 holes. I think it make sense for a bomber.

 

Offline Herra Tohtori

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Blurry blueprints


Dunno where that's ripped, but there you go - at least some reference. :rolleyes:


Edit:  Delete ? from link to eliminate leech error after clicking on link  -Chief
« Last Edit: April 15, 2007, 10:30:51 pm by Herra Tohtori »
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Offline MetalDestroyer

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So I was totally wrong  :blah:

 

Offline chief1983

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If I'm looking at that right, then my revision of the B-Wing, with one below the cockpit and one at the base of the wing, between the cannons, is correct.  It looks like the Primary launcher is pointing to that spot between the ion and blaster cannons.  This image also makes the pods appear to be more embedded into the fighter, and not completely separated.  I guess this is just another example of conflicting Star Wars sources.  The New Essential Guide appears to back up all of minilogo's claims of the pod area being the only missile launcher area on the ship, although it does not clearly point out that the pods themselves are the launchers.  I believe I will stick with the second revision then, unless someone has a better reference than the last one that proves it wrong.
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Nuclear1:  Jesus Christ zack you're a little too hamyurger for HLP right now...
iamzack:  i dont have hamynerge i just want ptatoc hips D:
redsniper:  Platonic hips?!
iamzack:  lays

 

Offline chief1983

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So I was totally wrong  :blah:

Actually our original B-Wing had them there, but I was informed that those are part of the engine system itself.  On a plane that makes sense, to have an intake, but on a spaceship, I'm wondering what sort of intakes ships need like that.  Anyone versed in Star Wars Technobabble that can explain what the engine intakes on fighters intake/collect?  Are those purely for atmospheric flight, or what?
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Nuclear1:  Jesus Christ zack you're a little too hamyurger for HLP right now...
iamzack:  i dont have hamynerge i just want ptatoc hips D:
redsniper:  Platonic hips?!
iamzack:  lays

 

Offline brandx0

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While I'm no expert, I would suppose they function in a similar way to the X-Wing's intakes, whatever they do, which is most likely for atmospheric use.
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Offline Flaser

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SW ships use ion engines, so all they need is a good powersource and minimal propellant.
Therefore any powerfull "engine" would be 80% powergenerator --> heat --> heat sinks.

Why have them foreward? That way anyone can see them.....but so can you see the guy, and pepper 'em with your guns. Out of all the problems, I think being the most visible from the angle where I'm the most dangerous isn't such a bad trade-off.

Having them point backwards may be problematic as the ion stream from the engines could reflect the heat onto you.
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Offline Herra Tohtori

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Bear in mind that Star Wars is a pseudo-techno-universe. A device does what writers want it to do, they don't try to explain it.

Heat sinks themselves would be next to useless in a space ship. Sure, they do absorb heat but they also weigh a lot and when they start to melt they're not going to do any good to the ship. They are needed to equalize the spikes in energy output and store heat energy to be dissipated later.

What a space ship (and a computer!) needs is means to get rid of exess temperature. In fact, a space ship must always pump equivalent amount of heat into space as is generated in various components, in order to avoid overheating and melting. To do that in space there's two options:

Method 1: Ejecting heated matter into space, ie. transferring heat energy by matter transfer. The most sensible way to do this would be ising fuel as heat sink and ejecting the heated fuel. This method was, and probably still is, in fact used in booster rocket engines such as Saturn 5's F1-engines: to avoid the exhaust nozzles and combustion chambers melting, they pumped the cold fuel through pipes circulating the exhaust and combustion chamber before leading it into chamber and ignited. That way the exhaust gas takes away exess heat from the actual burning process and keeps the engine intact. The fuel heatsink was also utilized by SR-71 Blackbird reconnaissance fighter.

Pros: good heat transfer power capacity for a limited time.

Cons: limited ejecta (fuel) supply equals limited useful time for the ship. Obviously it doesn't matter if the main engine is the main heat producer - you run out of fuel, you don't need the heat sink as much any more.

Method 2: Losing thermal energy via radiation, ie. radiating energy to space. Obvious advantage is that it doesn't need to eject any matter into space, so it has unlimited running time as long as fluid circulates in pipes going through the heat source and the pipes. Almost as obvious disadvangtage is that it requires a lot of surface area to get rid of substantiable amounts of thermal energy. Also there's a problem if there happens to be an external light source like, say, a star nearby that can actually pump energy into radiators - in which case a cooler becomes a
heater and doesn't really do any good... :rolleyes:


Computers, cars and airplanes are able to use the most efficient method of cooling because there's a practically limitless heatsink - atmosphere - available for applications such as combustion engines or electrical devices. They can transfer the heat into air, then pump the air out of system and then pump back cooler air to fill the void. Water cooling uses same method but it uses water instead of air as the primary heat transfer matter - but every water cooling system has an air-cooled heat exchanger that transfers water's thermal energy into air. So it's air cooling with a twist.


In vacuum, nothing goes through the intakes so the only way they could be used for cooling in space is to be radiators, since obviously they do not spew coolant forwards. Hopefully. They are also way too small to be radiators of any significant power. So that leads me to think that they are in fact only used in atmosphere. It's possible that in atmospheric flight, craft such as X-Wing and B-Wing are able to use air as primary propellant, ie. using their engines as some sort of ramjets that take in air, superheat it and blast it out of their end. It's possible to do with sufficient energy source such as petroleoum, lasers or intense nuclear generator heat.


...Or, they are just there to look cool. :p
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Offline chief1983

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...Or, they are just there to look cool. :p

I think you're on to something.
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Nuclear1:  Jesus Christ zack you're a little too hamyurger for HLP right now...
iamzack:  i dont have hamynerge i just want ptatoc hips D:
redsniper:  Platonic hips?!
iamzack:  lays

 
LOL


Umm, as far as one ordinance=one missile bay, whatever happened to linked fire?  We need 2 torp bays!

Anyway, about the B-Wing itself.  How do the mechanics of it work? I mean, according to Star Wars, the cockpit is always, I guess, "level," at least on the horizontal axis, while the ship spins around it.  How is this gonna work in game? does the pilot get a sensation of rolling when they're supposed to roll?  Or ingame, will the ship in fact spin around the ship like it's supposed to?
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Offline chief1983

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Umm, as far as one ordinance=one missile bay, whatever happened to linked fire?  We need 2 torp bays!

Where is there an example with only one?  All the revisions I've shown have two.

Anyway, about the B-Wing itself.  How do the mechanics of it work? I mean, according to Star Wars, the cockpit is always, I guess, "level," at least on the horizontal axis, while the ship spins around it.  How is this gonna work in game? does the pilot get a sensation of rolling when they're supposed to roll?  Or ingame, will the ship in fact spin around the ship like it's supposed to?

That's something I've been discussing lately.  I don't know how much the engine currently supports that level of model animation.  I would intend for the ship to rotate around the cockpit, that it always stays level, as far as the pilot is concerned.  So not only does the main body of the fighter have to be able to rotate around the cockpit, its smaller wings need to be able to open up as well.  For now though, we're just going with static models.  B-Wing and X-Wing animation are something I hope to see someday though.  Currently those two ships are not broken into submodels, so I'm assuming that would need to be done before any sort of animation could happen.
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Nuclear1:  Jesus Christ zack you're a little too hamyurger for HLP right now...
iamzack:  i dont have hamynerge i just want ptatoc hips D:
redsniper:  Platonic hips?!
iamzack:  lays

 

Offline NGTM-1R

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AFAIK it should be entirely possible to make the wings open and close. While making the model able to rotate should be easy, actually making it do it dynamically ingame is something that I wouldn't want to touch with a 10-foot pole.
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you dont have to break models down to animate them, all you have to do is give them a skeletal hierarchy with deformers and weigh the mesh to the skeleton, as long as the engine supports vertex weights then you can do this, i do it all the time for other games.