I just can't see a scenario where people aren't either complaining about ****ty, annoying avatars (if it's free for all)Of all of the many forums I've been on, I have literally never seen this actually be a thing. People complaining enmass about 'annoying avatars'. You are afraid of nothing.
We've never needed them before, they add nothing, I don't think we need them now.This is such an non-argument. We don't 'need' signatures, nor do we 'need' a personal text or titles or anything that adds a bit of personal flair. Or hell, do you need to color all your posts with your special [bw ] color tag? Seems oddly hypocritical? You get to have your special post flair but others cannot?
And I think it would be cool if member profiles could be targetted to sharing their works better. Like a small link on the side bar that's just like "Campaigns: 5", "Models: 10", "Mods: 9,000" etc and clicking those brings you to their forum profile where there are links to those. There have been quite a few times that I'm looking for a model that I know someone like Droid803 released and its not on the wiki, so I have to go through his profile and see the threads he's started to find what I'm looking for.
Maybe someone should start photoshopping a few examples.
(http://i.imgur.com/YFkV4oE.jpg)
Or we could have an avatar for team members. I just think it would be nice if when you were on the Diaspora boards and you could instantly tell that you were talking to someone from the Diaspora team. Having to search for a badge (which may have several other badges nearby) somewhat complicates things.
Since the previous topic got locked by The_E for no reason given and since he is asleep now and can't read my pm, I'll just make a new thread. Seems like I win, checkmate The_E (https://ibin.co/2oJ63Vv3ztwb.png)
I always thought it was more of a forum style / tradition. But, so was the Welcome SpeechTM, and the Welcome BeamTM, and those were discontinued (well, actively discouraged, welcome beams discouraged in support threads unless accompanied by useful post)
And for goodness' sake, the absolute worst reason to change long-established tradition is because one user ****posted about it. In addition to the disrespect for community history, that sends precisely the wrong message with regards to forum feedback, both to the well-behaved users and to the disruptive ones.
And for goodness' sake, the absolute worst reason to change long-established tradition is because one user ****posted about it. In addition to the disrespect for community history, that sends precisely the wrong message with regards to forum feedback, both to the well-behaved users and to the disruptive ones.
Says the guy who just gave that user a title. :rolleyes:
There may be reasons not to change things, but you've already completely torpedoed that argument already.
As for post count. I don't mind showing it, it does help to know who is new around here. There are a few times when I've found it useful with people who weren't very active or who post again after a long time absent.
Tradition at HLP is that a user who asks for a new title in a particularly dramatic, entitled, or demanding way usually gets an ironic or tongue-in-cheek title. Spoon's new title qualifies as such because it is a backhanded reference to his post. It can be read straight or read in the sense of a petty cry for attention. The particular interpretation is left for the reader, although I see now that the dual meaning is perhaps too subtle.
i could not give less of a **** who does and doesn't get some petty status symbol on a modding forumThat's what everybody sane is thinking. Unforunately we have one admin who is super obsessed with these kind of things and really concerned with hierarchy on a spaceship game forum from 1999. :lol:
Seriously? :rolleyes:I vote get rid off. Get rid of mine right now please.
Okay, I'm just going to continue the discussion with everyone else. Cause I suspect you're the only one that obsessed with maintaining forum discipline.
So. What to do with Titles? Would people prefer to see them retained and made more useful or just gotten rid of?
I don't know if you're being dishonest or just oblivious.
The clutter issue is in people's heads.
I still can't get rid of this Syrk one because there's apparently no one left who could revoke it.
(that reason is also why I have never asked for one btw, I'm perhaps too self-aware to know better than that).
By the power vested in me, I have removed the badge.
Nobody's mentioned that yet seriously but I'm probably the only person in HLP's history who's actually voluntarily given up the majority of the badges he ever hadI submit this evidence to the court (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=73221.0), that you are not in fact the only one.
Like Spoon asked for his title to be removed. If people can ask to have a custom color code be added for their own use and that be granted, then should I not be able to give into Spoon's request? Or maybe I should be such the brilliant and funny administrator and give him the title "Stupid Newbie" that adorns so many Something Awful avatars?I am glad of it.
Really, it could be anything.
I'm 90% sure that most of the reason Spoon is annoyed at all this is because avatars are exclusive rewards for certain members right now and merely expanding the criteria for what constitutes an avatar reward is not a good solution for that annoyance.
This is such an non-argument. We don't 'need' signatures, nor do we 'need' a personal text or titles or anything that adds a bit of personal flair. Or hell, do you need to color all your posts with your special [bw ] color tag? Seems oddly hypocritical? You get to have your special post flair but others cannot?
If people can ask to have a custom color code be added for their own use and that be granted, then should I not be able to give into Spoon's request?
Custom colors: Black Wolf has his custom color tag because he asked for it. Spoon, did you even bother asking for a custom color tag? Or did you formulate an assumption and then start attacking that assumption?
Nobody is now or has ever been* restricted from using colour tags. Go ahead. Try it. It's fine. Absolutely nobody will prevent you.I don't want to, I find your special snowflake color tag obnoxious. But that is completely besides the point on why I brought it up, a point you seem to have completely missed there, buddy.
I don't really think that avatar pics will be the amazing thing that will Make HLP Great Again.This is a strawman though, nobody has made a claim like this.
*Briefly, I think a few people were asking Mobius not to use light blue when we had a light blue and white scheme temporarily and it was all but impossible to see, but he was never forbidden.
How can I get an avatar/custom title?
In the Forums, you’ll notice that particular people have special titles and even pictures underneath their names when they post. These pictures are called avatars, and are only given to staffers at websites hosted by HLP. To qualify as a hosted staffer, you must either work on a project already hosted by us, or create your own project and get it approved for hosting by us (more details on the HLP Hosting page). NB. Avatars can be accrued… ie. One person can have more than one avatar, if they work on the appropriate number of projects. Custom titles are earned by merit and distinction - that is (respectively), what you achieve, and what sets you apart from others. For example, Mikhael has the title *404error* because of his excellent work on 404error.com; Venom has the title Model Magician because of his outstanding skill in model creation; Zeronet has the title Hanger Man because of his mad interest in hangers ([sic] - I’m pretty sure it’s spelled hangars, but what the hey). You get the idea; titles are distributed at the discretion of the HLP staff only, and explicitly asking for titles will reduce your chance of ever being awarded one.
As an aside, no matter which way the discussion goes, I still haven't heard a single good argument for why we shouldn't let global moderators have admin powers (with the exception of Goober's "That's how we've always done it" which probably wasn't even about that issue) so unless I hear any objection I'll assume that everyone is okay with giving them avatars and turn that on regardless of where the rest of the discussion goes.
You are not the unilateral arbiter of what is and is not good policy.(https://i.somethingawful.com/forumsystem/emoticons/emot-ironicat.gif)
You can't have avatars cause time and time again users have proved through abuse of signatures etc that you can't be trusted with them. :p
Reason why we don't have avatars on HLP:
See my Game Warden avatar. :nervous:
HLP does not use avatars or image signatures to help users focus on post content.
I don't really think that avatar pics will be the amazing thing that will Make HLP Great Again.This is a strawman though, nobody has made a claim like this.
That's why I meant it in jest and followed it by an actual good reason that everyone ignored or thought insufficiently interesting to address (and that's fine tbh).I sort of ignored it because bloat and feature creep, and the slippery slope has never been an issue on any forum with staff that has at least half a brain. So I wasn't actually sure if you were serious. I mean, 'bigger design scope' is something HLP doesn't exactly have anyway...
As far as I'm aware, "Why not X" has never been a good argument for anything. All that it succeeded in doing was BLOAT (tm) in about everything. And following all of you guys from a thread that was about how Star Citizen is all about the BLOAT, it's somewhat uninspiring to see everyone not taking the hint...
It's a slippery slope, better be careful. Only a few months ago support was added forHidden Text: Show
If avatars are added in now we'll go crazy with features until HLP is an unreadable bloated mess!
Oh yes, of course. Being civil is so much more important than having arguments that actually hold up. Don't want to scare off those "hidden third parties" with our rudeness.
Making up ridiculous claims and slippery slope arguments is fine as long as you're being civil about it :D
Spoon, you're capable of discussing the issues without snark or condescension. Do so.
The fact that like 95% of forums allow avatars and they're not a bloated mess is obviously just intuition. The fact that they can also be turned off at will is just conjecture, it's not like that option already exists.
Can you maybe cite some examples for forums that have added in basic features like avatars and become a bloated mess because of it? Otherwise I'd say there's plenty wrong with your argument, starting with it being utterly ridiculous.
I mean what ****ing "design scope" are you even talking about? Since when do PHP forums have those? How do avatars(that can be turned off at will) go against HLP's goal of distributing and promoting freespace mods? Are you afraid SCP devs will suddenly spend so much time tweaking the forum they'll stop fixing bugs and releasing new builds? Intuition is fine but your whole argument boils down to "cuz I said so", you're free to believe that but it's a very poor position to actually argue from.
Whether you feel it or not, Luis, that is precisely what Spoon is doing. His entire argument, starting from his first ****post in the previous thread, has been pure rhetoric. He's not participating in a good faith discussion. This should be obvious based on the fact that Axem gave him a title that is even more blatantly insulting than the one I gave him (in complete contrast to what he demanded, "Why don't I get a fine title that acknowledges that I did something great,") and he's "glad of it" (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=92265.msg1823516#msg1823516).
It's not ridiculous to have a different taste and aesthetic opinion, and you're angry without any reason for being so. Calm down.
i kind of like hlp's look without the avatars and i don't really want to see it spoiled, especially as part of some dumb proxy war against the site's old guard
They can be turned off at any time. Why do you have a problem with other people seeing them? If they were somehow forced on you I would completely understand and I wouldn't even try to argue against it.
...especially as part of some dumb proxy war against the site's old guard
Here is my problem with this "Avatars will bloat HLP" argument. HLP already has avatars, its just that only some users can have them. If the concern really was reducing bloat and a minimalist design, then shouldn't admins not have them either? Shouldn't badges go away too then?
This should be obvious based on the fact that Axem gave him a title that is even more blatantly insulting than the one I gave him (in complete contrast to what he demanded, "Why don't I get a fine title that acknowledges that I did something great,") and he's "glad of it" (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=92265.msg1823516#msg1823516).
Spoon's new title qualifies as such because it is a backhanded reference to his post. It can be read straight or read in the sense of a petty cry for attention. The particular interpretation is left for the reader, although I see now that the dual meaning is perhaps too subtle.
Badges are small and pretty neat, I honestly would be fine with user avatars about the size of like 6 badges stuck in a row,
It's not blatantly insulting. It's an ironic in-joke title that I thought we've all come to love. See, on Something Awful, there are Stupid Newbie avatars everywhere. And since Spoon has been attempting to channel his inner wanna-be goon self recently, I thought it would be fitting to give him that title. But I did ask his permission before hand. If he said "no, I'd rather not have that", I would have just removed the "I did a great thing".
And thank you for proving my point about these titles. You had said,QuoteSpoon's new title qualifies as such because it is a backhanded reference to his post. It can be read straight or read in the sense of a petty cry for attention. The particular interpretation is left for the reader, although I see now that the dual meaning is perhaps too subtle.
So its not a sincere title you've given him, its a backhanded one. How is anyone supposed to feel about that now? There's a twisted context to it that isn't apparent to anyone who knows that. (Also I know you said it could be taken as an olive branch but... really, after that line its very suspect what the true intention is.)
That's why these ironic titles are dumb and I'd rather see those go away.
I like badges.(https://i.somethingawful.com/u/garbageday/2014/avatars/captainpopbyob.gif)
If posts are organs of the human psyche, as the philosopher Grintholde asserts, then posts about posting must be reckoned the resultant sores and cankers infecting the aggregate forum of the human race. Of all posts, these are the most detestable, since they are posted for no tangible gain, but only to alter the context of other posts.
-General Battuta
As an aside, no matter which way the discussion goes, I still haven't heard a single good argument for why we shouldn't let global moderators have admin powers (with the exception of Goober's "That's how we've always done it" which probably wasn't even about that issue) so unless I hear any objection I'll assume that everyone is okay with giving them avatars and turn that on regardless of where the rest of the discussion goes.
How did you get from avatars and titles to "admin powers"?
Also, dismissing competing views and priorities as "not good arguments" is completely the wrong way to go about having a discussion. You are not the unilateral arbiter of what is and is not good policy.
Hi Goober, I don't engage with you because of various reasons. Most of the mudslinging that has been done is done by you though! And if you read the first page back there isn't actually any mudslinging going on and it's actually nothing but a constructive normal discussion. My first post in this thread was not a '****post' and I am hurt you keep saying that it was. You actually have said a lot of really backhanded things about me in this thread but I'll just pretend that you didn't.
Also I wholeheartly disagree with pretty much everything you have said in this thread and I feel your policy of stagnation is actively hurtful to the site/community as a whole. All of your points have been easily refuted by several well thought out posts. And you just resort to your refuge of "it has always been like this" to try and wave it all away. I don't even have to do any effort to refute your arguments, because the best argument against your points are your own posts. You are literally quoting posts from 2010 from members that in this very thread have expressed different views now, to adress a subject brought up in 2016. You are advocating tradition for the sake of tradition. I find it very hard not to be condescending about that, but I'm trying my darnest here!
Also HLP is super dead and it doesn't actually matter anymore at all.
It's still super dumb.
Grrrr :mad:
Tabling the discussion for a month because no one agrees with you is not a valid tactic, Goober. Arguing that nothing good can come from ****posting is something that this very forum has repeatedly disproved. Complaining that personal attacks are rampant when your first and second posts on the subject singled out other users and accused them of ****posting and making arguments in bad faith is merely darkly amusing.
You cannot now escape the consequences of your inartful response merely because you wish to. HLP still isn't a Goober dictatorship.
"It's traditional", but so is starting major mod projects and not finishing them here, so, you know, tradition is not automatically good and right. More seriously this argument hinges on a perceived specialness of HLP. It is traditional in many, many places to have avatars. This has not resulted in the sky falling in on them or caused them to spontaneously combust. The sole reason to value this tradition more than any other tradition is the belief that it makes us unique and better.
As for no good arguments, has anyone (with the possible exception of yourself, which I acknowledged) said we shouldn't give global mods an avatar? Cause if not and if you don't raise an objection I'm turning that feature on. If, as you claim avatars are a perk that admins get for having to work on HLP then I see no good reason why global mods shouldn't have one too. Especially when you yourself included moderating the forums as one reason why admins get them.
Since the previous topic got locked by The_E for no reason given and since he is asleep now and can't read my pm, I'll just make a new thread. Seems like I win, checkmate The_E
Your first post in this thread was certainly a ****post because a) it was posted in defiance of The E, and b) you taunted The E about it. Neither of which you have apologized for, by the way.
I'm only in favor in putting the topic off for a month because I know its a big deal for HLP and quickly forcing change on anyone who doesn't like it will simply resent it forever.
I'm actually all for getting rid of all graphical noise, if that's the option Axem. But I'm guessing it's really unpopular.
Avatars should be earned by playing and posting feedback on mods.
Handing out redtext titles as a way to rebuke or praise users is also bad and silly, because it creates an economy of favor which values or devalues every post the user makes.
Tradition is a good reason, and a big reason. But it's far from the only reason, as I've stated previously in this thread.
Some additional quotes from various forum members:You can't have avatars cause time and time again users have proved through abuse of signatures etc that you can't be trusted with them. :p
I said as much in my response (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=92265.msg1823494#msg1823494) to karajorma. It was a backhanded title because Spoon made a ****post. If he had made a regular request post, or if he had PMmed and asked for a title, I would have been much more favorably disposed.
(https://i.somethingawful.com/forumsystem/emoticons/emot-ughh.gif)Hi Goober, I don't engage with you because of various reasons. Most of the mudslinging that has been done is done by you though! And if you read the first page back there isn't actually any mudslinging going on and it's actually nothing but a constructive normal discussion. My first post in this thread was not a '****post' and I am hurt you keep saying that it was. You actually have said a lot of really backhanded things about me in this thread but I'll just pretend that you didn't.
Your first post in this thread was certainly a ****post because a) it was posted in defiance of The E, and b) you taunted The E about it. Neither of which you have apologized for, by the way.
I gotta say that this is open to interpretation. I read this completely as a joke, certainly not defiance or taunting (pure words are 7% of communication?)
I certainly read it that way.I was joking. My admittance to my previous made topic being a 'bit of ****post' was me saying that "my previous made thread was made in a silly mood and wasn't worded very well to start a serious discussion. And 'in defiance of The E'? Are you hearing yourself talk here? What do you assume human relationships are like on this forum?
I find it very hard to assign any weight to your opinions about the site, the community, and their history, given what you said:(https://i.somethingawful.com/forumsystem/emoticons/emot-ughh.gif)Also HLP is super dead and it doesn't actually matter anymore at all.
It's still super dumb.
Grrrr :mad:
*snip, don't mind me!*(https://i.somethingawful.com/forumsystem/emoticons/emot-stare.gif)
The argument against avatars because it's traditional is based on a series of falsehoods, by the by.(https://i.somethingawful.com/forumsystem/emoticons/emot-golfclap.gif)
"It's traditional", but so is starting major mod projects and not finishing them here, so, you know, tradition is not automatically good and right. More seriously this argument hinges on a perceived specialness of HLP. It is traditional in many, many places to have avatars. This has not resulted in the sky falling in on them or caused them to spontaneously combust. The sole reason to value this tradition more than any other tradition is the belief that it makes us unique and better.
If the argument is "so that people will focus on post content" then the corollary is "so that people will not focus on the poster". (I'm going to point out that if the assumption is that "so posters don't focus on who has the shiniest avatar" that this is not something that happens to people past the age of 12 and if the reason admins have them is it's really such a concern that they be inherently shinier and more worthy of respect in the eyes of 12-year-olds then...well, the dubiousness of that position should be obvious.)
First, it's pretty obvious without even looking at the poster name (and if applicable, avatar, because we regularly violate our supposed tradition for admins) when you're dealing with a Luis post, a Battuta post, a Dragon post, or a Goober post. And you will evaluate the content's usefulness and trustworthiness accordingly. We have blatant examples of people in the moderation dismissing the content of others' posts in this very thread because of who posted it. People will focus on poster and not content regardless if they are minded to do so. Nay, do not make the hackneyed argument that avatars would somehow make it “easier” to do so. These are opinions that can only emerge from having observed the poster's content across weeks or months. If someone regards a poster as contributing nothing to a discussion, they will not be swayed in that opinion by having to take a tenth of a second longer to identify that poster. (We have already proved this, right here.) Nor will they be swayed from considering someone as having things to offer to a discussion by making it a tenth of a second less time to identify the poster.
Second, "so that people will not focus on the poster" is at odds with the fact that administrators wear their avatars at all times, even when not acting in an administrative capacity and when their posts have no reason to be accorded special weight, in effect prompting others to focus on the poster even when the poster is supposedly irrelevant. "I am specialer than you" they say. "Pay attention to me." If the goal is truly to make all posters be judged equally, this is not only counterproductive but actually speaks to a desire that the administration be accorded special weight they are not, by the supposed logic of having no avatars for everyone else, due.
Third, the fact that we have custom text colors for users more or less destroys the argument that we are trying to enforce some kind of poster uniformity to encourage judging solely on content. BW and Mobius and Maeg had their own tags coded into the board to let them post in their own colors, making them even more instantly identifiable than an avatar would, because it's taking up far more of the visual area, and does not even require a momentary diversion of the eyes from the center of the screen where they would normally rest to identify who's posting.
Fourth, does this not sound a bit Orwellian? If one wishes to create a uniformity of posters so that all may be judged solely by their content (as impossible as this dream is it is a worthy one to pursue), it would be hoped that among all us American and European types it would already be understood that the way one does so is to raise all posters to the same level, rather than restrict away the opportunities for individual expression in a majority. One creates equality by extension of rights, not by hording them.
The argument that HLP's “traditional” approach to a lack of avatars makes HLP somehow better is undermined, thus, by the inherent dynamics of people posting on forums, by the implementation of avatars for certain people anyways, by the creation of workarounds for posters who desire to establish instant recognition regardless of the lack of avatars, and finally by good old-fashioned Enlightment principles. It should not and can not be taken seriously.
Since the previous topic got locked by The_E for no reason given and since he is asleep now and can't read my pm, I'll just make a new thread. Seems like I win, checkmate The_EYour first post in this thread was certainly a ****post because a) it was posted in defiance of The E, and b) you taunted The E about it. Neither of which you have apologized for, by the way.
I gotta say that this is open to interpretation. I read this completely as a joke, certainly not defiance or taunting (pure words are 7% of communication?)
I certainly read it that way.
I see no reason to defer the topic a month. It might cool things down. Or it might just leave things to fester for a month.
Especially since the person repeatedly calling for a month to cool off is the same person who doesn't want anything to change. Quite a few people are going to see that as you winning out against everyone else's opinions.
Your actions are the only ones inflaming things. How about you drop the nonsense about ****posting and actually try to discuss things reasonably and then the thread can return to the way it was before you turned up and inflamed things in the first place. The very fact that two admins and two global moderators had already posted before you turned up should be enough to show that no one else really gave a damn about the way the topic was brought up.
Hell, if anything this thread is a great example of why ****posting is counterproductive. Had Spoon simply brought up the topic everyone would be discussing things calmly. Any changes that occur will be in spite of his ****posting, not because of it.
And that is the most seriously disturbing thing in this whole discussion. As admins of the forum aren't we supposed to be better than this? Just cause it was traditional to give out insulting titles when we were teenagers and angry young men does that mean we should continue to do it now? There are people on this forum with titles they were given over a decade ago. Should they have to carry around evidence of some stupid argument with a capricious admin for that long? Didn't we decide (over the course of several discussions on moderation style) to change the attitude of the administration towards users? Hasn't HLP been a better, less drama filled place cause of it?
Okay, since you are demonstrating again and again and again that you have no sense of humor and your reading comphrension is loving terrible. I'm just going to spell it out to you, because apparantly you need me to. Because you are not very good at reading.
No my first post was definitely not a '****post', though I understand you are desperately trying to frame it as such so you can just dismiss the whole topic at hand instead of actually argueing the excellent posts that have been made instead.
I certainly read it that way.
This whole sideshow of Goob trying to defend my authority as a GlobMod is laughable.
Every attempt to make a high level decision on HLP becomes another attempt to reckon past grudges.Goober is super good at this, it distracts from having to discuss the issue at hand. Instead he can make personal remarks at me again. Spin an amazing narrative in which I am a nefarious villian.
I explicitly told you to discuss the subject without snark or condescension. Have a warning.Oh nooo! A warning! You got me Goober, you won the argument.
You can't look at this (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=92264.msg1823434#msg1823434), this (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=92264.msg1823435#msg1823435), this (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=92265.msg1823496#msg1823496), this (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=92265.msg1823502#msg1823502), this (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=92265.msg1823520#msg1823520), this (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=92265.msg1823546#msg1823546), this (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=92265.msg1823552#msg1823552), and this (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=92265.msg1823554#msg1823554) and tell me those aren't inflammatory.Hey that's cool, two can play your dumb game:
Demanding that forum tradition be changed to suit your personal preferences, ****posting about it, ignoring a global moderator's moderation action, and then taunting that global moderator are all extremely childish ways of making inquiries of the forum staff. Do you want us to treat you like a child? After all, according to your profile, you are a female 13-year-old located in a state of confusion.Being condenscending as ****, calling me childish then proceeds to:
Now then, Spoon, I can see that your custom title ranting is not without merit. Accordingly, I have assigned you a suitable title.*Gives me a backhanded title* Yeah, that was real mature of you.
And for goodness' sake, the absolute worst reason to change long-established tradition is because one user ****posted about it.Accusing me of ****posting #1
I don't know if you're being dishonest or just oblivious. For the sake of a good faith discussion I'll assume the latter.Says Karajorma is a either dishonest or oblivious
As for your impression that I hold any spite or ill will against Spoon, you are quite mistaken. I am concerned about the long-term effect on HLP if a single forum member can overturn literally years of HLP precedent based on nothing more than throwing a tantrum. And this is a mild tantrum compared to what we have experienced in the past.Condescendingly says I am 'throwing a tantrum'
You are not the unilateral arbiter of what is and is not good policy.Have to make mention of how ironic this is, considering you are treating HLP like, as NGTM-1R so nicely put it, your personal fiefdom.
Whether you feel it or not, Luis, that is precisely what Spoon is doing. His entire argument, starting from his first ****post in the previous thread, has been pure rhetoric.Accusing me of ****posting #2
He's not participating in a good faith discussion.Is that so?
It was a backhanded title because Spoon made a ****post.Again, #3 ****post mention. Admits to the title being backhanded again. Yup, continues being mature and being on point of the argument.
****posting is a terrible way to kick off a discussion, and it's led to mudslinging and rhetoric-slinging in most of the posts that followed.#4 and the mudslinging has been done entirely by you at this point. The discussion was going fine until you came in: "Complaining that personal attacks are rampant when your first and second posts on the subject singled out other users and accused them of ****posting and making arguments in bad faith is merely darkly amusing." (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=92265.msg1823582#msg1823582) incidentally I am not the only one that sees it that way
Your first post in this thread was certainly a ****post because a) it was posted in defiance of The E, and b) you taunted The E about it. Neither of which you have apologized for, by the way.#5 and proof that you cannot read tone and context and are merely out to spin my posts in such a way that you can read them as personal attacks, Because:
Everyone understood that it was joke. Several people are correcting you that your perspective is skewed.Since the previous topic got locked by The_E for no reason given and since he is asleep now and can't read my pm, I'll just make a new thread. Seems like I win, checkmate The_EYour first post in this thread was certainly a ****post because a) it was posted in defiance of The E, and b) you taunted The E about it. Neither of which you have apologized for, by the way.
I gotta say that this is open to interpretation. I read this completely as a joke, certainly not defiance or taunting (pure words are 7% of communication?)I certainly read it that way.
3rd.
This whole sideshow of Goob trying to defend my authority as a GlobMod is laughable. I am perfectly capable of reading context and intent, and I believe I know spoon well enough to tell when he's joking and not. A bit of lèse–majesté is perfectly alright in my book; the alternative, to treat every little tweak of the nose as a grave insult to THE AUTHORITAY, just doesn't lead to good places. The only reason I closed the first thread was because it did not go good places; Instead of discussing whether or not avatars should be allowed or not, it was all "HLP IS THE DEAD".Which you then, again, blatantly ignore and spins in such a way that it fits your own narrative rather than doing a bit of self reflection and realizing you were wrong.
As for whether or not admins and mods give a damn about how this topic was brought up, turning a blind eye to ****posting (Spoon even acknowledged that he was ****posting) is only going to lead to more ****posts in the future. That is certainly something that admins and mods should be considering.#6, you are really obsessed with '****posting' and feel the need to keep bringing it up and up despite several people telling you how bringing it up again and again isn't relevant to anything. You seem to put so much weight and value on it, it's perfect for dismissing that pesky Spoon and trying to make the conversation at hand seem like its not worth discussing.
"it was just a prank bro"1. Dismissing my explaination on how I used the term, because **** Spoon, that filthy liar.
When something looks like a ****post and you acknowledge it as a ****post, then claim that it's not, when you say you're not going to engage anymore and then engage, you shouldn't be surprised when people don't believe you.
And yet, neither Spoon's first nor second resort was to bring it up calmly. I wonder why he skipped over those steps. (Oh no, I don't wonder: being "grr mad" is his thing.)Nobody wonders about this but you, because everyone else can see the first two posts in the first thread were in jest. You may not consider it funny, that is fine. But you cannot be serious that you actually thought my previous thread was a serious temper tantrum in which I actually demanded a title like a small child. Everyone with some reading comprehension who knows me and my normal posting style (and my recent few silly posts in the starcitizen thread), can tell the locked topic was a jesting way to bring up a subject.
As for "excellent posts", when people have discussed the facts of the matter I respond in kind. You're not arguing the merits of the case as many of the people in this thread have actually tried to do. Your style seems to rely mostly on hand-waving beneath your special sense of humor combined with issuing ad hominems.Holy **** the irony.
Present some example screenshots. Discuss what formats you desire.I'll go do a bit of photoshopping tonight, come up with a possible format.
Then make a poll, a referendum if you will.
For my part, I won't resent anything that may come off of it, even if its merely dictated from high above. How dare me if I would. *
* I must add, because this is the internet after all, that I'm being exactly 0% sarcastic here.
Because you have a history of not understanding my sense of humor and interpreting everything as a personal attack of sorts.Proven twenty times over in this thread again.
Regardless of anyone's opinion of how the thread started, surely by this point the consensus is clear, and there's no argument against it except 'we shouldn't do it because Spoon didn't ask nicely.'
I'll go do a bit of photoshopping tonight, come up with a possible format.Because I am important I will quote myself.
Regardless of anyone's opinion of how the thread started, surely by this point the consensus is clear, and there's no argument against it except 'we shouldn't do it because Spoon didn't ask nicely.'
I argued against it a fair bit but i guess from the start the only aim here was to rant at goober
[snip]I like Sample 2, but I also like the badge-before-position from Axem's mockup. I also think the badges below the avatar looks slightly cleaner for some reason? Not really sure why.
Anyway, critique, hate, comment, suggest something different, away
I like Sample 2, but I also like the badge-before-position from Axem's mockup. I also think the badges below the avatar looks slightly cleaner for some reason? Not really sure why.(https://ibin.co/2oWxR5Hyx49x.jpg)
[snip]I really, really like that layout.
Regardless of anyone's opinion of how the thread started, surely by this point the consensus is clear, and there's no argument against it except 'we shouldn't do it because Spoon didn't ask nicely.'
I argued against it a fair bit but i guess from the start the only aim here was to rant at goober
But weren't all your objections answered by 'you can turn avatars off'?
So, would the forums defaulting to not showing avatars and an option to turn them on be better? Everyone in this thread asking for them would easily be able to turn them on.But then how would you make new users aware that avatars are even a thing?
I know Freespace uses and abuses BankGothic... but please.... please I beg you.... pleeeease don't use it.Oh come on, it's not like I'm using ComicSans :p
I really, really like that layout.Excellent
So, would the forums defaulting to not showing avatars and an option to turn them on be better? Everyone in this thread asking for them would easily be able to turn them on.
TL;DR It is not only completely possible to turn on avatars without affecting people who don't like them but it is completely possible for me to have already done it without anyone noticing. This is why I find is so incomprehensible that anyone is still arguing this issue.
(https://ibin.co/2oWxR5Hyx49x.jpg)
sigh it's like a nightmare.You are starting to sound a tiny bit overly dramatic and ridiculous, I'll be honest.
[snip](https://i.somethingawful.com/u/garbageday/2014/vince.gif)
[snip]
We're not on some unavoidable slippery slope riding an out of control train down into a rainbow colored super cluttered forum.
Here you go! (https://mlpforums.com/)
Here you go! (https://mlpforums.com/)
Here you go! (https://mlpforums.com/)
I think I'll be drafting a contingency avatar inspired by the dogs.Well I know Spoon likes Suikoden II so...
I really do think that a avatars help give a bit of character to the individual postings.
*snip, don't mind me!*(https://i.somethingawful.com/forumsystem/emoticons/emot-stare.gif)
I am minding you so hard right now
As long as they can be disabled, and it doesn't accidentally break the forums, who cares. I've been adblocking the admin avatars since forever anyway.
Alternatively, we could go back to the original point #1 and say that the privilege of wearing an avatar is contingent on being a member of a hosted project.
allowing everyone to pick an avatar is tantamount to giving everyone an admin medal, which dilutes what the actual admins have. Other users get the reward without the responsibility.with a giant picture under your name comes giant responsibility
I did some historical research on the justification for avatars.Thanks for the history lesson but to quote a wise man: "HLP's history with avatars is immaterial: the point of this thread is to decide to do something other than what has always been done."
So in the current vernacular, admin avatars are really an extra-large badge for being in the admin usergroup. Therefore, allowing everyone to pick an avatar is tantamount to giving everyone an admin medal, which dilutes what the actual admins have. Other users get the reward without the responsibility.Sorry but, this just seems so very petty and is honestly kind of childish. We're an community of adults playing and modding a space game from 1999, this notion of having avatars as 'rewards' or as 'status symbols' is just so :blah:
[snip]Good post, sums it up pretty well.
So uh, any more comments or mockups people want to do? How does everyone feel about it?Should I make a poll for those layout examples? They might be getting a bit lost in the current thread.
So uh, any more comments or mockups people want to do? How does everyone feel about it?Feel? Apathy. I feel I will be shocked if anything actually changes. You lot always keep the status quo. You say you will do things then you don't. You break your own agreements. You lie with impunity. You break your own rules with impunity. The last time was especially egregious, as you actually gave us what we wanted, then you took it away with no notice or explanation and locked the thread so we couldn't even seek one. Thanks for wasting my time there along with everyone else who participated there in good faith. I'm amazed that people are still even bothering with you. Numerous people were saying things such as I have just said back when I was new to the site. And I've been here well over 4 years now, and it hasn't changed.
Magnanimously giving us what virtually every forum on the internet gives it's users by default.
What the hell just happened in the last 6 posts?
I want an avatar. I want to make the mini-profile that's attached to every single one of my posts look nice, for I am a designer! I want the admins (or at least one in particular) to not care so damn much about status symbols and power hierarchy. I want that this thread not become a place to, once again, vent about HLP admins, mods, or other feuds that may be going on. I want to go back to the time when we'd argue about the thickness of cables and number of pilots in fictional spacecraft rather than whether or not everyone can have a small custom image by their internet-name on a video game forum.
It is traditional in many, many places (insert phrase here) to have avatars. This has not resulted in the sky falling in on them or caused them to spontaneously combust. The sole reason to value this tradition more than any other tradition is the belief that it makes us unique and better.
I want the admins (...) to not care so damn much about status symbols and power hierarchy. I want that this thread not become a place to, once again, vent about HLP admins, mods, or other feuds that may be going on. I want to go back to the time when we'd argue about the thickness of cables and number of pilots in fictional spacecraft rather than whether or not everyone can have a small custom image by their internet-name on a video game forum.
(https://i.somethingawful.com/forumsystem/emoticons/emot-pcgaming.gif) Vote in my poll (https://i.somethingawful.com/forumsystem/emoticons/emot-pcgaming.gif)
CLICK ME (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=92323.0)(https://i.somethingawful.com/forumsystem/emoticons/emot-pcgaming.gif) Vote in my poll (https://i.somethingawful.com/forumsystem/emoticons/emot-pcgaming.gif)
I don't know where it is. MAKE IT MORE OBVIOUS SPOON
(And seriously, are AIM, Yahoo messenger and IRQ still a thing in this time and age?)I'm part of a group of people who chat in AIM just about every night of the week. We're pretty much a living anachronism at this point though. :p
I never really understood why those buttons have to be included with every post... I just added every button just to show how silly it really is. (And seriously, are AIM, Yahoo messenger and IRQ still a thing in this time and age?)
I never really understood why those buttons have to be included with every post... I just added every button just to show how silly it really is. (And seriously, are AIM, Yahoo messenger and IRQ still a thing in this time and age?)
Lol, I just went and removed a bunch of mine.. though it seems MSN was disabled at some point, but I still have data there. I can't remove it. Axem, HALP!
I'm part of a group of people who chat in AIM just about every night of the week. We're pretty much a living anachronism at this point though. :pYou are starting to lose sync with the current timeline! You might start to fade out at any moment!
HLP's history with avatars is immaterial
with a giant picture under your name comes giant responsibility
It is traditional in many, many places (insert phrase here) to have avatars. This has not resulted in the sky falling in on them or caused them to spontaneously combust. The sole reason to value this tradition more than any other tradition is the belief that it makes us unique and better.
Lol, I just went and removed a bunch of mine.. though it seems MSN was disabled at some point, but I still have data there. I can't remove it.
But I agree. The fact we have a minecraft profile button at all is a merit for every other game out there to have one. It sets a precedent.
So I'd like to propose, that when HLP does its server switcharoo/upgrade, we celebrate by opening up the avatar gates for everyone.(https://i.somethingawful.com/forumsystem/emoticons/emot-thumbsup.gif)
Sigh. Well, whatever. They will default to off, correct?Why would they be? That would mean the majority would have to turn them on instead of the minority having to turn them off. That's pretty backwards.
So I'd like to propose, that when HLP does its server switcharoo/upgrade, we celebrate by opening up the avatar gates for everyone.
Similarly, the powers-of-two text represents "member rank" based on the number of posts. This has used a different distribution of ranks throughout HLP's history. It's been powers-of-two for ages, but prior to that it was based on FreeSpace ships... "GTF Apollo" and "GTF Valkyrie" were for members with fewer posts; "GTD Orion and "GTVA Colossus" were for members with higher posts. "GVA Setekh" was the highest rank due to Setekh having by far the largest number of posts on HLP for a number of years. We could change this back to FreeSpace ships, or use the actual FreeSpace rank system, or something different.
I'll change that back to ships and see how that's received.
Powers of 2 is distinct and elegant, don't change that!:yes:
Powers of 2 is distinct and elegant, don't change that!
Would it be possible to have different ships for different classes, and have the users be allowed to choose between them? Ie, in each rank, you can choose from among that rank's ships.
A bit confusing unless a stickied overview is in GD maybe? Too much a pain to implement? I dunno, I was just thinking, being stuck with a ship you think as ugly for your rank pic might not be so cool for some.
Speaking of user titles, while I recognize that they're part of the tradition and stuff, I have to agree with those saying they're not always a positive addition to this forum. One example I know well into the details was my "Rainbow Brite" title; although I knew why I got it, my biggest issue with it was its reference to some random TV program or cartoon aimed at an audience of children aged 8 or younger, either in the UK or the US. As a foreigner I found it disturbing because I had to do some search to find out what it was about, and even at that point, my feelings about it didn't change. It was still a reference other community members got more that I ever did, something that didn't belong to me. I felt extremely estranged... it wasn't like having L'Albero Azzurro or Lo Zecchino d'Oro as a title, if you get what I mean. I am now fine with my current title, because it's strictly linked to my nickname and various personal experiences here on this forum.
Only on HLP do we have a thread discussing avatars and user titles and the result is post count titles changing. :p
Only on HLP do we have a thread discussing avatars and user titles and the result is post count titles changing. :p
goober literally everyone who has expressed an opinion wants 2^n postcounts not ships what the hell are you doing