Author Topic: MediaVPs & Knossos (RE: Some People Don't Like Change; Refuse Future)  (Read 13740 times)

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Offline CT27

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Re: MediaVPs & Knossos (RE: Some People Don't Like Change; Refuse Future)
Thank you Goober.

One thing I noticed in the 3.8 release thread for the new mediavps is that there was an option for "MV_Advanced", but I looked on the Installer and that option isn't there.  Did you integrate that optional download into the 3.8.x download on the Installer?

 

Offline Goober5000

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Re: MediaVPs & Knossos (RE: Some People Don't Like Change; Refuse Future)
It's not an available package in the Knossos version.  I presume the FSU team merged it into the standard packages.

 

Offline ngld

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Re: MediaVPs & Knossos (RE: Some People Don't Like Change; Refuse Future)
That's weird... it shows up on my end and it's listed in the manual download links.

 

Offline Goober5000

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Re: MediaVPs & Knossos (RE: Some People Don't Like Change; Refuse Future)
...You're right.  That's odd.

Hmm.  I suspect what happened is that my local mod.json doesn't keep track of the packages I didn't download.  I'll have to edit the Installer file to add the rest.

 

Offline CT27

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Re: MediaVPs & Knossos (RE: Some People Don't Like Change; Refuse Future)
Two other files I noticed in the manual download list that weren't on the Installer were:
"MV_Animglows"
"MV_RadarIcons"


Also, would it be safe to assume that the "Assets" download in the Installer combines the four asset files in the manual download list (Assets, _S, _T, and _V)?

 

Offline ngld

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Re: MediaVPs & Knossos (RE: Some People Don't Like Change; Refuse Future)
@Goober5000: The local mod.json files only list the installed packages. This is by design since that file is only supposed to reference stuff that's locally available.

  

Offline Goober5000

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Re: MediaVPs & Knossos (RE: Some People Don't Like Change; Refuse Future)
Okay, everything should be available now.  And yes, the MV_Assets selection in the FSO Installer includes the _T, _V, and _S packages.

 
Re: MediaVPs & Knossos (RE: Some People Don't Like Change; Refuse Future)
I can admit that Knossos is a nice system. It seems to work pretty well. BUT... it's all the eggs in a single basket - what kind of bothers me about it is the nature of it being THE centralized repository of all things FreeSpace. The fact that it is meant to entirely preempt the old decentralized system of download and store on your own is bothersome. NJN.Mixael himself stated that it is his goal to eliminate all other forms of distribution, because that is the way the project is headed.

What if something catastrophic happens, and the server(s) it runs off of are lost? What if there is a cease-and-desist legal wrangle targeting Knossos? What if the guy(s) that manage it decide they want to just take their toys and go home? What if ($Deity forbid) they unexpectedly DIE?

The Launcher system, despite all of its faults, provides a certain peace of mind that Knossos does not. If development of all aspects of the FreeSpace 2 Project were to stop and vanish tomorrow, I still have my archival backups that I can unpack and play at any time. Knossos is nice and all, but it's kind of like Steam in that if it folds up for any reason, I'm screwed out of my games with them. With this system, the only way to really get updated FreeSpace mods and play them is through this system, because these updates will not be made available to work under the old Launcher system any more. New features and updates will be exclusive to Knossos, and if anything happens to Knossos, that's just too bad - you're stuck with the old versions assuming you kept them around. This is why I buy absolutely as many of my games as I can from GOG.com and get the manual installer backup for each of them. Is it paranoid? Maybe, but it's my choice to make... and it makes me feel better.

tldr: I like Knossos - it's great and its use should be encouraged; but the old system needs to be maintained just in case.

 

Offline mjn.mixael

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Re: MediaVPs & Knossos (RE: Some People Don't Like Change; Refuse Future)
 :wtf:

Knossos will launch mods just fine without access to the server. Knossos will launch user installed mods just as fine as well.

The server portion of Knossos (Nebula) is just as open source as Knossos.

If the server goes down, you won't be able to upload or download mods from the server, but Knossos will still work and launch mods currently installed or manually installed in the Knossos format. You're confusing server downloads with server drm which Knossos does not have.

Knossos and it's server portion, Nebula, were written from the ground up by an hlp member. It also does not provide an illegal download of FS. There is literally no legal wrangling that could force it down.

Worst case scenario is that ngld stops providing the server space and we have to find somewhere else to host either Nebula, the mods, or both. Either way, Knossos will continue to work just fine and your paranoia is pointless. I remain unconvinced that I need to duplicate my mod release efforts.
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Re: MediaVPs & Knossos (RE: Some People Don't Like Change; Refuse Future)
OK, so where do I download the Knossos compatible mods, and how would I point Knossos to them so they can be installed or would I have to install any such mods manually?

Are there even any manual mod installation instructions for Knossos?

What if I want to install everything from scratch on a machine with no internet access?

Will Knossos support local archival and restore of mods I download with it?

What if the servers Nebula uses get "Megauploaded" and unexpectedly have all of their resources locked permanently?

How does Nebula prevent a mod stored on it (or Knossos itself) from being updated with (or otherwise somehow infected with) a virus or other malware, and said malware is then automatically distributed as an update to everyone downstream? Are the binaries for Knossos digitally signed?

These things are either not an issue under the Launcher system, or are mitigated by time (not everyone checks for updates every day, and damage from an outbreak of malware would be limited by time until discovered). Your centralized system relies on more than a little bit of faith from everyone involved...


Edit: Rereading your response again, I think you've missed my point. I don;t consider your system to be any form of DRM. My issue is that your system becomes the only source for the mods. If I buy a new computer next year and discover HLP is gone and there is nowhere to download anything from the SCP or FSU, it is trivial to perform a fresh install of FreeSpace 2 and unpack my archives of the SCP, FSU and any mods I had onto the new computer. How would I do this with Knossos? THIS is my primary concern.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2018, 06:06:15 am by mvmiller12 »

 

Offline mjn.mixael

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Re: MediaVPs & Knossos (RE: Some People Don't Like Change; Refuse Future)
OK, so where do I download the Knossos compatible mods, and how would I point Knossos to them so they can be installed or would I have to install any such mods manually?
You can install any mod you want to Knossos provided you write a proper mod.json. All mods are Knossos compatible. Hell, you could use Knossos's Dev tab to do the heavy lifting of creating the mod.json and then paste whatever mod files you want in it. NOTE: Because you seem rather confused on the topic.. this does not require an internet connection to do.

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Are there even any manual mod installation instructions for Knossos?
It's really not all that different from older launchers. It's just much, much more compatible with TCs. The problem most people have is that the folder structure changed a bit and change is hard.

Quote
What if I want to install everything from scratch on a machine with no internet access?
What kind of question is this? How would you do that with the older installers? You still have to download everything from somewhere and transfer it with a USB drive or something else. I guess if you really insist on having a machine with no internet access to play FS mods, then you can do that with Knossos, too. Knossos does not require an internet connection to launch mods.

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Will Knossos support local archival and restore of mods I download with it?
Again, what kind of question is this? It works just like old launchers. If you remove or zip up a mod, then Knossos doesn't see. If you unzip them or paste them back into the Knossos FSO folder, then it will see them. You're making up demons now.

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What if the servers Nebula uses get "Megauploaded" and unexpectedly have all of their resources locked permanently?
What if FSMods goes down and takes nearly everything with it? I'm sure the community will figure out a solution to getting files back up.

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How does Nebula prevent a mod stored on it (or Knossos itself) from being updated with (or otherwise somehow infected with) a virus or other malware, and said malware is then automatically distributed as an update to everyone downstream? Are the binaries for Knossos digitally signed?
Possibly the only fair question so far. I'll let ngld answer that one. However, I would also ask... in all of HLP's history, has there ever been a single case of a mod release spreading any kind of malware? Also.. do you run a machine with no virus protection.. possibly because those programs use a centralized system to update virus definitions?

Quote
These things are either not an issue under the Launcher system, or are mitigated by time (not everyone checks for updates every day, and damage from an outbreak of malware would be limited by time until discovered). Your centralized system relies on more than a little bit of faith from everyone involved...
You are conjuring up problems out of nothing and/or bringing up such fringe issues that this is almost a farce... Don't use Knossos if you don't want. I don't have to spend time releasing mods configured for old launchers if I don't want. If you're smart enough to ask all these silly questions, then you're smart enough to download the mod files and make them work in an older launcher.  :doubt:
« Last Edit: September 06, 2018, 06:22:48 am by mjn.mixael »
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Offline PIe

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Re: MediaVPs & Knossos (RE: Some People Don't Like Change; Refuse Future)
OK, so where do I download the Knossos compatible mods, and how would I point Knossos to them so they can be installed or would I have to install any such mods manually?
If you're asking if you can migrate your existing FS installation over to something compatible with Knossos, the answer is no.  If you're just wondering how to install a mod through Knossos, just install Knossos and it's pretty obvious.
Are there even any manual mod installation instructions for Knossos?
Yes, but you're probably thinking about this the wrong way.  Since many if not all of the popular mods are available through Knossos, there's probably no need for you to figure this out right now.  If you do want to import an existing mod that hasn't been uploaded yet, explore the dev tab.  It's fairly straightforward and help is readily available.
What if I want to install everything from scratch on a machine with no internet access?
You can copy the Knossos data folder just like you can copy your existing FS2 installation.
Will Knossos support local archival and restore of mods I download with it?
See the previous answer.
What if the servers Nebula uses get "Megauploaded" and unexpectedly have all of their resources locked permanently?
I'm not sure why you're worried about this.  If this happened (which it won't), I'm not sure how it would be any different than if the same happened to FSMods when FSMods was the central download repository.
How does Nebula prevent a mod stored on it (or Knossos itself) from being updated with (or otherwise somehow infected with) a virus or other malware, and said malware is then automatically distributed as an update to everyone downstream? Are the binaries for Knossos digitally signed?

These things are either not an issue under the Launcher system, or are mitigated by time (not everyone checks for updates every day, and damage from an outbreak of malware would be limited by time until discovered). Your centralized system relies on more than a little bit of faith from everyone involved...
When has this ever happened?  Technically, I suppose there's a little more risk involved, but the idea of someone bundling malware into a mod is, considering the size of the FS community, pretty unbelievable.  Also, presumably, your antimalware program of choice would catch this.  Yes, I guess there is minutely more risk, but worrying about this borders on paranoia.

Because of Knossos/FSNebula, mods generally have at least the same or more download mirrors.  Uploaded mods are automatically stored both on FSNebula (ngld's server) and the Datacorder server, which also hosts the FSMods dump.  Previously, you would have had to upload it to FSMods, FSFiles and maybe Mediafire/Dropbox/what-have-you if you were really fanatical about redundancy.  Now, you just click the upload button and it's stored on FSNebula and Datacorder.  It's still entirely possible to upload to SectorGame or the generic commercial file hosting sites if you want, but you're getting two download hosts for essentially free.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2018, 06:40:42 am by PIe »
[6:23 PM] PIe: why do I have the feeling that I shouldn't be able to give orders to 22nd armored hq
[6:24 PM] Axem: 22nd armored hq, i order you to get me a cup of coffee
[6:24 PM] PIe: and donuts
[6:24 PM] PIe: BECAUSE THIS IS THE GTVA POLICE
[6:25 PM] Axem: :O
[6:25 PM] Axem: am i under arrest
[6:26 PM] [`_`]/: no, just please step out of the myrmidon
[6:26 PM] [`_`]/: you have so much to fred for

[9:50 PM] Sottises: wait did you do vassago's verge?
[9:50 PM] Sottises: .. dirge?
[9:50 PM] Axem: yes
[9:50 PM] Sottises: ohh
[9:50 PM] Sottises: well I have that and JAD too
[9:50 PM] Axem: :)
[9:50 PM] Sottises: what a contrast of themes lmao
[9:50 PM] Axem: isnt it
[9:51 PM] Axem: super grimdark thriller about unknowable alien intelligence and over the top colorful action about friendship
[9:51 PM] PIe: jad is grimdark???
[9:51 PM] Axem: :skull:

 
Re: MediaVPs & Knossos (RE: Some People Don't Like Change; Refuse Future)
I really you find my suggestions of mishap farcical, but I have had ALL OF THESE scenarios happen to me or someone I know well with other softwares at one time or another. So... they are funny to you, but serious to me.

Everything I download and intend to keep is properly archived into a RAR that is then stored on a set of local HDDs. Changes to the contents of the local HDDs are immediately backed up to a large RAID array, and periodically THOSE updates are further backed up to Blu Ray disks (now, used to be DL DVDs) and then stored off-site. The RAID array is also backed up every month or two to a set of backup external HDDs that are also stored off-site. I've lost all of my data on 2 different occasions years ago, and I swore then that would never happen to me again. So far, I've kept my promise.

Installing Freespace Open with mods and without internet access is as simple as install FreeSpace 2 from my disk images (that I made from my disks that I purchased when I bought the game from EB), installing the wxLauncher I already have from my archive, and then just unpacking my FreeSapce 2 Open archives into that folder. For a very long time I had super-slow DSL service, so downloading updates was an affair, and Internet access was unreliable at best. Also, there is the case of traveling to places where there is no internet available (not that I do that often).


To be clear, I LIKE your system. I think it simplifies a lot of the work of getting FreeSpace 2 Open going, especially for new users of it. If you are saying I can simply Archive the (default location) C:\Games\FreeSpaceOpen folder, and when I need to, just install Knossos and unpack THIS folder to get playing again - that will adequately address my concerns. If this is indeed the case, this is not made clear anywhere in this thread.

 

Offline PIe

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Re: MediaVPs & Knossos (RE: Some People Don't Like Change; Refuse Future)
If you are saying I can simply Archive the (default location) C:\Games\FreeSpaceOpen folder, and when I need to, just install Knossos and unpack THIS folder to get playing again - that will adequately address my concerns. If this is indeed the case, this is not made clear anywhere in this thread.
You can copy the Knossos data folder just like you can copy your existing FS2 installation.
You still have to download everything from somewhere and transfer it with a USB drive or something else.
...
If you remove or zip up a mod, then Knossos doesn't see. If you unzip them or paste them back into the Knossos FSO folder, then it will see them.
That clear enough?
[6:23 PM] PIe: why do I have the feeling that I shouldn't be able to give orders to 22nd armored hq
[6:24 PM] Axem: 22nd armored hq, i order you to get me a cup of coffee
[6:24 PM] PIe: and donuts
[6:24 PM] PIe: BECAUSE THIS IS THE GTVA POLICE
[6:25 PM] Axem: :O
[6:25 PM] Axem: am i under arrest
[6:26 PM] [`_`]/: no, just please step out of the myrmidon
[6:26 PM] [`_`]/: you have so much to fred for

[9:50 PM] Sottises: wait did you do vassago's verge?
[9:50 PM] Sottises: .. dirge?
[9:50 PM] Axem: yes
[9:50 PM] Sottises: ohh
[9:50 PM] Sottises: well I have that and JAD too
[9:50 PM] Axem: :)
[9:50 PM] Sottises: what a contrast of themes lmao
[9:50 PM] Axem: isnt it
[9:51 PM] Axem: super grimdark thriller about unknowable alien intelligence and over the top colorful action about friendship
[9:51 PM] PIe: jad is grimdark???
[9:51 PM] Axem: :skull:

 
Re: MediaVPs & Knossos (RE: Some People Don't Like Change; Refuse Future)
It really wasn't. I didn't read YOUR post until after I had posted my reply to the one above it, so I could not be 'clarified' by it. And in the case of the post to which I was actually replying, it was not immediately clear what was meant by FSO data folder.

Really, your reply to me came off as snarky, and that isn't necessary. I had a concern, it was addressed. I'm not trying to be rude in any way, so why the snark?

 

Offline ngld

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Re: MediaVPs & Knossos (RE: Some People Don't Like Change; Refuse Future)
Whelp, this post became much longer than anticipated but I hope I've adressed all your concerns beside the fact that you can archive (and restore) your installed mods.


The fact that it is meant to entirely preempt the old decentralized system of download and store on your own is bothersome.
Before Knossos came along everything was uploaded on FSMods, MediaFire or GDrive. (Or as a forum attachment and promptly lost.) It's "better" in the sense that only individual mods are lost and not everything at once. However, with Knossos and Nebula, every uploaded mod is stored on two different servers with reliable backups. So far, we haven't lost a single mod. IMO that's better than the previous system.

What if something catastrophic happens, and the server(s) it runs off of are lost? What if there is a cease-and-desist legal wrangle targeting Knossos?
The files are hosted on two physically separate servers controlled by two different legal entities and the main server is backed up daily. The possibility that we suffer an unrecoverable loss is extremely unlikely. If you want to make it even more likely, I'd be happy to add more mirrors to Nebula, you'd just need to provide me a suitable server to upload the files to (anything in Asia or Australia would probably be good since we already have NA and Europe covered :p).

What if the guy(s) that manage it decide they want to just take their toys and go home?
Well, I think it's silly for me to say it since I'm the one who manages the main server (and develops Knossos) but if the HLP admins WANTED TO, they could back up the datacorder thus making it impossible for me to wipe out all of Nebula. For that matter... if you want to, I could explain how YOU could backup all of the publicly available mods on Nebula (not the private mods obviously though the HLP admins could back up those, too). After all, the download links are all available in a neat JSON file.

What if ($Deity forbid) they unexpectedly DIE?
Why, yes. I've though about that though I have to admit that while the plan is finished it hasn't been completely implemented (time constraints and RL). Since the downloads are already accessible by a third-party (see the datacorder), I'd consider them safe enough. The only thing missing is a database backup (which I won't make public since it contains sensitive data). I'm planning on storing that on the datacorder as well, that way, the HLP admins should be able to access it if it became necessary and I can automatically update it daily. Finally, the source code for both Nebula and Knossos is already public (open source), the only thing missing is a manual on how to restore the database and get Nebula running.
Currently (since the plan hasn't been implemented, yet) everything but private mods and user accounts should already be recoverable.

OK, so where do I download the Knossos compatible mods, and how would I point Knossos to them so they can be installed or would I have to install any such mods manually?
There's no point to that. If you can download them manually, Knossos can download them as well.

What if I want to install everything from scratch on a machine with no internet access? Will Knossos support local archival and restore of mods I download with it?
You use a copy of a previous install (as pointed out in the last two posts). I know those posts came after yours, I just don't want to repeat them.

What if the servers Nebula uses get "Megauploaded" and unexpectedly have all of their resources locked permanently?
Highly unlikely. In any case, both servers are controlled different people living in different countries. If anything were to happen, most likely one server would go down first, leaving us time to act. Also, at least one of the two servers is backed up daily (both the database and mod files). The backups are encrypted, signed and stored off-site (feel free to ask if you want details).

How does Nebula prevent a mod stored on it (or Knossos itself) from being updated with (or otherwise somehow infected with) a virus or other malware, and said malware is then automatically distributed as an update to everyone downstream?
It doesn't. However, Knossos only launches binaries from engine uploads which (for now) are only FSO and FSO Multilock. AFAIK FSO can't launch binaries by itself so even if someone would try and distribute a virus with their mod, the only way to do that would be by distributing a new build. New uploads are announced on Discord and I check all uploaded builds (which so far has been very easy since it's just two). I realize that this isn't a highly secure measure but I encourage you to share your solution if you've got a better one.
That aside, what prevents someone from uploading a virus-infected FSO build on the forum and claim that it's a new test build?

Are the binaries for Knossos digitally signed?
No and neither are the binaries for FSO. I'm wondering why you mention that since IMO that has nothing to do with any of the other points you brought up. The downloads are served over https so it's very unlikely that the binaries are modified. You can still build it from source if you don't trust the official downloads. However, those are also built from source by an automated script (which is open source as well).
For the record, I'd like to sign the Knossos binaries. There are just two reasons why I don't: a) I'm not exactly keen showing everyone who installs Knossos my full name and b) the necessary certificates are too expensive IMO for the benefit that they offer.

These things are either not an issue under the Launcher system, or are mitigated by time (not everyone checks for updates every day, and damage from an outbreak of malware would be limited by time until discovered).
I don't see how that changes with Knossos. Updates are only installed when a user clicks the Update button. Users might check more often (since it's more convenient) but that's about it. I'd also rather try and prevent malware from being released at all than hope that it's discovered in time (which in my experience is very unreliable).

 

Offline Volta

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Re: MediaVPs & Knossos (RE: Some People Don't Like Change; Refuse Future)
I'm kinda concerned about future FSO builds breaking older launcher support like FSO 3.8 did with the aging 5.5g launcher. and well i don't want a launcher monopoly of a launcher that is just worser in my eyes so here's my small review (or just criticism let's be honest now  ;7 ) of knossos as a manual user who likes wxlauncher and uses it to this very day  :p

Knossos is super convenient in downloading mods quickly and fast and my god the amount of mods that i never played because i didn't search enough in the HLP forums is insane!

And well the only problem with knossos is that i can't have a global command line configuration for every mediavps version and mods, whenever i want to enable like say: turn on 3d radar or want to turn off vsync, i have to click more times for each category and wait almost 2 seconds for no reason (maybe CPU lag?) whatsoever and now have to do this for every mod  :banghead: (i hated that i had to click on every category in the fso feature options in 5.5g and wxlauncher eliminated that for me and knossos brings a old annoyance back.)

Pretty much the only reason i don't use knossos as a launcher is because i can't download older Mediavps's and FSO versions (like 3.16.12 and 3.16.10 and for FSO 3.7.4 or older, some older mods actually need them!) and can't use global command line options that 5.5g and wxlauncher had and i just think that knossos doesn't give much freedom for people that like to thinker with stuff that manual users like me, like a lot (like combining mods and having a multiverse clusterf**k) :lol:.

Also im not sure if knossos had made some updates on the launcher end since i didn't use it for months now so my complains might be out of date for now, i have to check it again once im back from vacation :cool:

 

Offline mjn.mixael

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Re: MediaVPs & Knossos (RE: Some People Don't Like Change; Refuse Future)
Knossos has a global command line feature in the settings.

You can download all MediaVPs versions except for 3.6.9zeta. In fact, older mods that are tested with older mediavps will make sure that Knossos has the correct mediavps version.

There is no reason to use an older FSO build. If a mod requires an older build, then the mod has bugs that need to be fixed... but in general FSO updates are not incompatible with older mods. Worst case scenario is that they warn on more things that could causes errors or crashes in the mod data.

You can tinker in Knossos just fine.. the way you do it is just a little different now.
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Re: MediaVPs & Knossos (RE: Some People Don't Like Change; Refuse Future)
NGLD, your responses are appreciated. This is good information for the community to have. Openness is good :)

 

Offline ngld

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Re: MediaVPs & Knossos (RE: Some People Don't Like Change; Refuse Future)
Most of that information can be found in the Knossos development thread. Well, the server side stuff probably wasn't as detailed since noone was really interested in that until now. Other stuff like the fact that you can archive your data folder or even how mod.json files work, why they exist and so on is all explained there. It's just a lot a of posts that most people (understandably) aren't willing to read through.
Most of the decisions done in the last 4 years during the Knossos development were discussed (or at least announced) in the relevant thread. Though recently I've used Discord for that instead of the forum thread since it's much easier to discuss stuff there.
Maybe we need to organize all that information on the Wiki or something. I don't know...

@Volta: That 2 second lag is the time it takes for FSO to launch and tell Knossos which flags it supports.