[rev_posix]

Well, See, I get to call BS now. If it was anywhere near as hard as you say, Minecraft modding would be near impossible.

It's not. It's easy.

So I don't want to hear any "Boo hoo, it takes forever to get this readable"... No. We get Day-1 updates for mods that modify (not add, replace existing) class files. Hell, we get ones that are Day-1 updates on snapshots. There's nothing "Hard" about it.

Oh, and saying "Well they can't use that code"... Duh. That doesn't mean they can't get a heads up about what's changing. They do it on a weekly basis for snapshots anyway (It's called a changelog). Of cource, it could actually be partly used in Bukkit for the same reason all those mods that modify Mojang's Class files are allowed. Or should they all be arrested for using non-open source code? Some of them even make a profit off it.

Comparing modding the minecraft client, or a portion of the server is not in the same arena as recreating the server in an open source form.

As for the heads up part, they do...  by the same methods that all the mod makers get them.  Tweets from Dinnerbone and Jeb and seeing what's different in the current snapshot.

Again, modding an existing class is worlds apart from recreating the entire multiplayer server while adding a plugin API from obfuscated code, when they have no support from Mojang and have to do it, more or less, blind to keep from violating copyright laws.

If it's as easy as you claim, they why not contribute to the project, or start your own?

[CommanderDJ]

n00b post incoming:

I recently got back into playing on the server, and for some reason my /home got reset to spawn, so when I typed the command I was sent to spawn and now I don't know how to get back to where I was before. Is there any way my previous /home could be restored or something?

EDIT: Nevermind, I used dynmap to (eventually) find my place again. I moved the bed I'd set as my home and didn't sleep in it so my home was reset to spawn. Told you this was a n00b post!

[Sandwich]

I gotta say, hoppers, droppers, and comparators sure make resource farming fun again. I added an array of hoppers at the bottom of the mob farm (teleporter sig is 4 mossy cobblestone) that feed into a chest right there. There's also an ender chest there as well. Oh, and I also made a simple Blaze farm in the nether, with a portal right next to it. The companion portal in the overworld is in the top of a jungle tree, so I built a teleport pad there just for it. Sig is, I believe, 4 nether brick. If not, you can find teleporters to get there from my island.

[KyadCK]

Sometimes it's tempting to convert the server to a whitelist system running on a pure Minecraft server with no Bukkit update delays.

I belive the correct wording would be "Try it, I dare you".

Followed by "Now explain to everyone why the old world is lost to them forever unless they get a broken version from Trashman, why none of their Runes work anymore, why the server lags up a storm when anyone walks into JC's town, Why there is no more DynMap, Why no one can ever be caught for griefing if it happens, why no griefing can be reversed, why the Fenris is no longer protected and spawns mobs everywhere, why no chests are safe, why the Ender dragon doesn't come back, why they can't make a bunch of items anymore, and why they can no longer set or use Homes."

Yeah, I know, I know... Although whitelisting the server would basically resolve any of the griefing-related reasons... which isn't much.

Moot point anyway, Server is now 1.6.2. Lets hope the dev builds of certain plugins (and bukkit itself) are in a good mood.

Well, See, I get to call BS now. If it was anywhere near as hard as you say, Minecraft modding would be near impossible.

It's not. It's easy.

So I don't want to hear any "Boo hoo, it takes forever to get this readable"... No. We get Day-1 updates for mods that modify (not add, replace existing) class files. Hell, we get ones that are Day-1 updates on snapshots. There's nothing "Hard" about it.

Oh, and saying "Well they can't use that code"... Duh. That doesn't mean they can't get a heads up about what's changing. They do it on a weekly basis for snapshots anyway (It's called a changelog). Of cource, it could actually be partly used in Bukkit for the same reason all those mods that modify Mojang's Class files are allowed. Or should they all be arrested for using non-open source code? Some of them even make a profit off it.

Comparing modding the minecraft client, or a portion of the server is not in the same arena as recreating the server in an open source form.

As for the heads up part, they do...  by the same methods that all the mod makers get them.  Tweets from Dinnerbone and Jeb and seeing what's different in the current snapshot.

Again, modding an existing class is worlds apart from recreating the entire multiplayer server while adding a plugin API from obfuscated code, when they have no support from Mojang and have to do it, more or less, blind to keep from violating copyright laws.

If it's as easy as you claim, they why not contribute to the project, or start your own?

The only problem with your argument is they already have a server code base.

If a Horse is added, you do not rebuild the entire server. You add an AI, you add hooks for that new AI, and you add the needed networking component (if any, it's just an NPC/Entity), and you call it a day. All of which you should already have the framework for, because you have other Entities already. The update should take maybe a few hours at the most. This is seen in the fact they have Dev builds out reasonably quickly, but do not get Beta (let alone recomended builds) for a long time.

Things that would kill a server update are things like netcode overhaul. That would hurt. Fortunately, we have not seen one in a long long time, and even if there was one you can watch the network for that info.

So please stop with this "They need to read obfusticated code" nonsense. If they were stupid enough to rebuild an entire server from scratch every time it would take them years, not weeks. They do not (and should not) give even the slightest crap about any minor tweaks Mojang does. They have their own Server code, which will do things very differently, to worry about and keep updated and the only question is compatability.

If you want to belive that they actually read all of Mojang's code and rewrite it all themselves every time, then be my guest, but that is not how anyone does things.

I gotta say, hoppers, droppers, and comparators sure make resource farming fun again. I added an array of hoppers at the bottom of the mob farm (teleporter sig is 4 mossy cobblestone) that feed into a chest right there. There's also an ender chest there as well. Oh, and I also made a simple Blaze farm in the nether, with a portal right next to it. The companion portal in the overworld is in the top of a jungle tree, so I built a teleport pad there just for it. Sig is, I believe, 4 nether brick. If not, you can find teleporters to get there from my island.

Creative useage. And as a Server Admin, I'm honestly not mad with this solution. You should still need to be in the general vacinity for it to operate, but there should not be hundreds of mob and item entities floating around killing the server becasue it should more or less clean itself up. Or at least I hope it does.

[rev_posix]

Again, modding an existing class is worlds apart from recreating the entire multiplayer server while adding a plugin API from obfuscated code, when they have no support from Mojang and have to do it, more or less, blind to keep from violating copyright laws.

If it's as easy as you claim, they why not contribute to the project, or start your own?

The only problem with your argument is they already have a server code base.

If a Horse is added, you do not rebuild the entire server. You add an AI, you add hooks for that new AI, and you add the needed networking component (if any, it's just an NPC/Entity), and you call it a day. All of which you should already have the framework for, because you have other Entities already. The update should take maybe a few hours at the most. This is seen in the fact they have Dev builds out reasonably quickly, but do not get Beta (let alone recomended builds) for a long time.

...

So please stop with this "They need to read obfusticated code" nonsense. If they were stupid enough to rebuild an entire server from scratch every time it would take them years, not weeks. They do not (and should not) give even the slightest crap about any minor tweaks Mojang does. They have their own Server code, which will do things very differently, to worry about and keep updated and the only question is compatability.

If you want to belive that they actually read all of Mojang's code and rewrite it all themselves every time, then be my guest, but that is not how anyone does things.

And how often has Mojang broke other things in the game when adding or tweaking something that is unrelated to the now broken thing?

The fact that bukkit aims for 100% compatibility with the vanilla server makes the job that much harder, and due to the apparent haphazard way MC is currently built, it's foolish to think that 'just adding a horse' is as simple as adding new sections to whatever framework there may (or may not) be for handling mobs.

My sources are the bukkit devs, current and former.  You can believe what you want, but unless your name is in the commit logs for bukkit or the Mojang dev list, it's speculation on your side.

Again, if it's that easy, then why not contribute to the project instead of complaining and basically accusing them of being lazy?

However, we seem to have gone off on a tangent from my original point, which is Mojang hired some of the Bukkit devs, yes, but none of them are involved with bukkit any longer.  Seph is the sole exception as it was his project to begin with.  Bukkit has no 'inside info' as seems to be implied by your original statement.

[Sandwich]

Moot point anyway, Server is now 1.6.2. Lets hope the dev builds of certain plugins (and bukkit itself) are in a good mood.

Yays!! Thanks - one of these days you gotta show me how to update things.

...or perhaps better not.

Creative useage. And as a Server Admin, I'm honestly not mad with this solution. You should still need to be in the general vacinity for it to operate, but there should not be hundreds of mob and item entities floating around killing the server becasue it should more or less clean itself up. Or at least I hope it does.

Yep, it certainly prevents entities. The regular mob farm insta-kills them for their drops (they don't pile up for XP farming), so there's no problem there. And the blaze farm, well, it's spawner-based, so you have to be within 16 blocks for it to spawn blazes, and even then it won't spawn in more if there are already (unkilled) blazes in the area.

[KyadCK]

Again, modding an existing class is worlds apart from recreating the entire multiplayer server while adding a plugin API from obfuscated code, when they have no support from Mojang and have to do it, more or less, blind to keep from violating copyright laws.

If it's as easy as you claim, they why not contribute to the project, or start your own?

The only problem with your argument is they already have a server code base.

If a Horse is added, you do not rebuild the entire server. You add an AI, you add hooks for that new AI, and you add the needed networking component (if any, it's just an NPC/Entity), and you call it a day. All of which you should already have the framework for, because you have other Entities already. The update should take maybe a few hours at the most. This is seen in the fact they have Dev builds out reasonably quickly, but do not get Beta (let alone recomended builds) for a long time.

...

So please stop with this "They need to read obfusticated code" nonsense. If they were stupid enough to rebuild an entire server from scratch every time it would take them years, not weeks. They do not (and should not) give even the slightest crap about any minor tweaks Mojang does. They have their own Server code, which will do things very differently, to worry about and keep updated and the only question is compatability.

If you want to belive that they actually read all of Mojang's code and rewrite it all themselves every time, then be my guest, but that is not how anyone does things.

And how often has Mojang broke other things in the game when adding or tweaking something that is unrelated to the now broken thing?

The fact that bukkit aims for 100% compatibility with the vanilla server makes the job that much harder, and due to the apparent haphazard way MC is currently built, it's foolish to think that 'just adding a horse' is as simple as adding new sections to whatever framework there may (or may not) be for handling mobs.

My sources are the bukkit devs, current and former.  You can believe what you want, but unless your name is in the commit logs for bukkit or the Mojang dev list, it's speculation on your side.

Again, if it's that easy, then why not contribute to the project instead of complaining and basically accusing them of being lazy?

However, we seem to have gone off on a tangent from my original point, which is Mojang hired some of the Bukkit devs, yes, but none of them are involved with bukkit any longer.  Seph is the sole exception as it was his project to begin with.  Bukkit has no 'inside info' as seems to be implied by your original statement.

The only foolish thing is to assume they don't have a framework to do exactly that. That is, after all, the point of Object Oriented programing in general, which Java qualifies as. Even my VT scripts have that capability built in. Every mod that adds mobs demonstrates this exact ability and even does so on Mojang code. It's no different from adding Items or Recipes.

How many of Bukkit's updates were the same minor bug fixes Mojang does? Very few, that's how many, because it's not the same code. When you build something to be compatable, the only things you need are to have the same content, and the same netcode interface. That's it. How things are done internally doesn't matter as long as the input and output is the same.

I guarantee you Bukkit does not handle chat in exactly the same way Mojang does. I guarantee you their mob spawning and AI are different. Their mod handling is very obviously different. They do not, never will, and would be stupid to, even try to copy Mojang's server code directly from effectively reversed engineered sources. "100% Vanilla compatibility" is with the client. What good is compatibility with another server? They don't talk, and they couldn't verify that anyway.

And as a re-cap, is your name in the commit log then? I don't think I've seen it, so while you may see me calling them lazy, I can just as easily turn around and say you have no proof otherwise. Aside being extremely pessimistic about how they would be doing things of course.

Moot point anyway, Server is now 1.6.2. Lets hope the dev builds of certain plugins (and bukkit itself) are in a good mood.

Yays!! Thanks - one of these days you gotta show me how to update things.

...or perhaps better not.

Creative useage. And as a Server Admin, I'm honestly not mad with this solution. You should still need to be in the general vacinity for it to operate, but there should not be hundreds of mob and item entities floating around killing the server becasue it should more or less clean itself up. Or at least I hope it does.

Yep, it certainly prevents entities. The regular mob farm insta-kills them for their drops (they don't pile up for XP farming), so there's no problem there. And the blaze farm, well, it's spawner-based, so you have to be within 16 blocks for it to spawn blazes, and even then it won't spawn in more if there are already (unkilled) blazes in the area.

Then ya, nothing to complain about.

[Phantom Hoover]

Wait. Are Mojang still ****ing obfuscating their jars? Jeeeesus christ, a more sanctimonious, hypocritical crowd of pricks has never been more revered by the gaming community.

[Zacam]

Kyad, rev_posix: Now now, you're both pretty, go have your tea somewhere else pretty please.

[KyadCK]

Kyad, rev_posix: Now now, you're both pretty, go have your tea somewhere else pretty please.

Can we have the old MC thread reopened temporarily to we can put the argument there? This is pretty much the only MC related thread.

[rev_posix]

Kyad, rev_posix: Now now, you're both pretty, go have your tea somewhere else pretty please.

Can we have the old MC thread reopened temporarily to we can put the argument there? This is pretty much the only MC related thread.

Funny, I was going to suggest that if we were going to continue the debate, that we should probably start a new thread.  However, I'm not sure if it's needed.

My sources/proof are from the bukkit devs themselves, and since I have no evidence or reason to question them, I'm not nearly as likely to take the word of $PERSON who isn't directly affiliated with them (no offense intended to anyone, it's a simple statement of needing proof and facts).

I think neither one of us are going to agree with the other on this subject.  So I'm fine with dropping it here. *shrug*

[Sandwich]

Sooooo..... in a complete change of topic, what do people think it would take to get people on the server more often?

Personally, I think it would be great to have some coordinated community builds or activities on the server - public service buildings at spawn, etc. I confess I look at the way the Mindcrack server operates with admiration and a bit of jealousy, but then again, most of those people get paid not insignificant sums of money to record themselves playing on there, so there is that.

[IronBeer]

Sooooo..... in a complete change of topic, what do people think it would take to get people on the server more often?

I don't know about for other people, but my urge to Minecraft it up comes in waves. At the moment, I'm in a bit of a slump, but I'm sure I'll be back at some point.

[Akalabeth Angel]

Not sure. I've been playing lately but only because I'm interested in working a bit on my fortress. Maybe if people threw up some screenshots of what they're doing, people would get motivated? I thought about doing so but haven't gotten around to it yet.

[FireSpawn]

I'm just tossing about on single player creative every now-and-then, trying not to suck as much at building things.

[Scourge of Ages]

I'm still working on my big project, and will post pics when it's done. Then I have plans for more...

But my big project is tedious, and not rewarding to work on. Plus I don't have much time that's not taken up by either warplanes or tanks. I'll wrap it up sooner or later, just have little time right now.

[Mongoose]

I'm back in a more active phase myself, and thanks to Kyad's help dealing with a Nether portal derp I now have a new abandoned mineshaft complex to fool around in, so I'll be keeping myself busy.

[Aardwolf]

I made an automated collection & sorting system for the loot from my skeleton XP grinder! It separates the loot into bones, arrows, and everything else (stuff which doesn't stack and therefore can't be separated using my hopper setup).

[Sandwich]

I'm getting a "Failed to login: Bad Login" error when I try to connect to the server... anyone else?

[Akalabeth Angel]

Here's an update of what I've been doing. (I'm located west of centre on the map edge in the snowy section).
Basically creating three rings around my central fortress, each of which I intend to fill with different things. Still building the walls themselves though. Of 12 total walls I have 3 and a half left to finish. Obviously if I ever finish this thing it'll take me a million years. Still might encourage people to get building their own stuff.

Here's a view of one quarter of the fortress, all three rings visible. Second pic is from one of the four sections between the walls. The walls are more/less finished but the sections are not. Also visible in the first pic is the glass roof of my farm of my initial base. Its bread keeps me fed and alive during the long arduous days of construction.




Also just for kicks, here's the interior of my mine where I have been gathering the cobble to smelt to stone to craft to bricks (oh so much fun). Mining nothing but rock can be boring, but when you create a sort of mine underground with catwalks and so forth I find it can be a LITTLE BIT more fun.

I'm getting a "Failed to login: Bad Login" error when I try to connect to the server... anyone else?

I went on tonight and didn't have a problem.