[Colonol Dekker]

I'd have just data-dumped all the future tech.

[Luis Dias]

Humans and Vasudans must feel the DREAD of the universe, so they can become absolutely ruthless.

Tough love. It works man.

[Colonol Dekker]

But.........Samuel Beis wifey :/

[Luis Dias]

she had it coming. come on, being in totally cool terms with her mother in law? what kind of universe was that anyway? A degenerate collapsing one, at best.

[Kie99]

I always liked the idea of the Knossos not just being a node stabiliser, but a node lock.  When it's activated it stabilises/opens a node, but when it's properly deactivated it shuts it down and keeps it shut down until it's reactivated or destroyed.  If the Knossos was never needed for the node to be there in the first place it would explain why the GTVA's plan of destroying the Knossos to keep the Sathanas out failed. 

If the Ancients managed to lock the Gamma Draconis-Nebula node part way through their Shivan incursion they would have cut off the enormous Shivan fleet that wiped them out from the rest of their armada.  In the intervening 8,000 years the cut off Shivan fleet ambled around what was formerly Ancient space and its numbers dwindled until there was only one Lucifer class ship remaining and a couple of destroyers.   It doesn't explain Capella, but it explains a lot of the differences between the Shivans in both games without requiring them to be developing at the same pace as the GTVA or be testing them somehow.

[Akalabeth Angel]

One thing you have forgotten is that the shivans have been know to travel unstable nodes that the GTVA cant. So the shivans could of mostly likely travelled the knossos one without the knossos being active. As it was never stated that node in gamma draconis was collapsed or just unstable.  So the shivans could of already been on the way and the timing of their presence and the activation of the knossos could all be coincidence.

The Shivans have travelled naturally occuring, unstable nodes in FS1.
The presence of the Knossos implies the node is not naturally occuring, and is in fact artificial. I would suggest that the Ancients may have even generated the node altogether from scratch, perhaps to traverse distances greater than a node normally would provide. Both the Nebula and Lions Den mission imply that the knossos has permitted them to travel a great distance, with increasing other-worldly feel to both of them (and supporting dialogue).

As such I don't think one can assume that the node by default would fall under the type of nodes that the Shivans can transit. The sequence of events in the story specifically suggest that the Shivans arrived because the Knossos became active. The ancients essentially "dug too greedily and too deep" and awakened the shivans. They shut the door but it was too late. NTF re-opened it.

[starbug]

One big plot hole for me is bosch wants to make contact with the shivans, how does he know the shivans are on the other side, would the shivans really wait for someone to activate the portal if their goal was to get to capella

[Akalabeth Angel]

One big plot hole for me is bosch wants to make contact with the shivans, how does he know the shivans are on the other side, would the shivans really wait for someone to activate the portal if their goal was to get to capella

I think that makes several assumptions:
1. You're assuming that the Shivans actions at Capella weren't the result of a new initiative. It's entirely possible that new information acquired by the Shivans had them move towards Capella, rather than assuming they had that knowledge all along. You're also assuming that ships in FS2 were present in that location during the time of the ancient war. However the number of new designs and new technology suggests to me, the opposite.

2. Conversely I think it's safe to assume that Bosch learned that the portal is the route that the ancients took in their voyage. And in that voyage, they encountered the shivans. I would think he's not so much certain that shivans are on the other side, but rather that he's hoping they are.


I would think that Lucifer was cut off because the ancients closed the portal. Between the time of the portal being shut down, and the time of FS2, a new shivan fleet moved into the area beyond the knossos. Bosch, hoping that the shivans were still there activated the portal with the intent of making contact. The new shivans, with differing goals from the lucifer fleet, discovered through either scouting or analysis of captured vessels (or contact with Bosch) that Capella was ideal for the Sathanas operation. They then gathered their fleet, routing it through the lion's den and into Capella. Secondary elements engaged the GTVA while the Sathanas successfully enacted their operation.

[Luis Dias]

I agree, that also seems to me like the least convoluted theory on the shivan activities.

[Scotty]

It could also be as simple as Shivans are autonomous threat detection.  When they encounter a new species, they seek to exterminate it/them.  If contact is cut off, they do not register any more threats on the radar (so to speak) and cease pursuit.  Then Bosch comes along and reignites the Shivan autonomous threat detection service and out come the response ships.  The nodes get sealed, and the threat is no longer registered again, and they back off. 

[IcemanFreespace]

But they don't kill Bosch, they take him and "talk" to him and possibly react and change their agenda after talking to him.

[Colonol Dekker]

Anyone seen Virus? The film where the "virus" takes over the soviet science ship after being downloaded from the ISS?


That's what the shivans did to Bosch.

[Luis Dias]

Then Bosch comes along and reignites the Shivan autonomous threat detection service and out come the response ships.  The nodes get sealed, and the threat is no longer registered again, and they back off.

Except they didn't "back off", they went their way to absolutely ignore "Terminate" to "Build Capella Highway (or whatevah) nau". Batts explained this very well in his concise thesis about how we not only can't beat them, we can't even understand them.

[castor]

All of the Lucifer class are engaged in a desperate war, far far away, against an enemy with very special abilities.

[BritishShivans]

All of the Lucifer class are engaged in a desperate war, far far away, against an enemy with very special abilities.

These special abilities include being able to make you high through the hull of a 2km+ space lobster/crayfish psi-kick powers, or induce a equivalent state if you're not a human.

(yeah i'm ****posting in this thread lol)

[NGTM-1R]

It's not canonically denied - it's considered a theory with some evidence in support.

Which completely clashes with Hellfire. I'm not clear why you'd consider speculation made two decades after the fact more determinative than reality-on-the-ground for combat at the time. The theory obviously does not fit with the facts we the players have at hand.

[Luis Dias]

Well citing ST canon isn't the best argument out there as far as writing goes... (I do see your point)

[Akalabeth Angel]

Eh, what's the actual blue planet theory? I skimmed the wiki entry but what I saw was something akin to "they change to defeat their enemy" which doesn't so much explain differences as it excuses them.

The problem is the Shivans in FS1 and FS2 didn't just use different means, but their goals were different as well. Destroying Capella does nothing to eradicate the species. Whereas the Lucifer made a b-line to each capital world to cut off the head of the enemy.

---------

Also regarding the hive-mind theory for the Shivans.
If the loss of the lucifer caused an immediate effect on the fleet, that suggests that the ship and its fellows had a continuous connection, yes?

Then how does one explain the presence of the comm nodes? They are after all labelled nodes in the game files, not amplifiers. Wouldn't a hive mind that stretches across subspace preclude the need for a node? A node is where two things intersect. That system in Lions Den was very much a node system, but the communication nodes seem unnecessary if it is in face a hive mind. Because a node suggests linear delivery of information, not an encompassing sphere of influence.

[Megawolf492]

I never really liked the hive mind theory. It makes them seem less intelligent as they can only function together and a lone fighter or cruiser is "useless" without everyone else. The behavior of the Shivans makes sense when looked at from a military position. The Lucifer was their ace in the hole. It was their super-weapon. It was their command ship. It was their plan to win the war/exterminate us. You take all that away all at once and it makes sense that the Shivans were reeling.

[headdie]

@Megawolf

While is is an exploitable weakness it far from makes them less intelligent.

in fact I would go so far to say that the Lucifer "just" being a command ship would make be problematic as it would then open up the question of why are they unable to function as a cohesive unit afterwards if they are capable of independent operation, why do they not attempt to regroup, why are they suddenly so "easy" to wipe out?  With a hive mind centred on the Lucifer for the local, relatively small group we have a clear cause and effect.

@Akalabeth Angel
The Terrans and Vasudans are capable of intersystem communications and yet they need comm relays, half of "A Failure to Communicate" is that you are guarding one such relay to maintain communication with the periphery.  why would shivan's be any different?, perhaps the "signal" degrades over increasing jumps limiting co-ordination to begin with before fading beyond use