[S-99]

For Bosch's sake, let's just hope they don't consider their plasma energy-claw things a part of their reproductive system.

I applaud you for your open mind. I hope the same as you in your further thinking. Oh man, that'd be horrible. The shivan would be in the middle of stuff...shawing! (shivan thinking...)oh god i killed it...this was the only time i ever LOVED!!!

Shivans probably are viewing us as the introduced species. The ancients have been all over a good chunk of gtva space in the past which isn't very big currently for the gtva. And since the shivans cleaned out former ancient space...

It's also obvious that the shivans were not first encountered at ross 128. Definitely something gti was up to back then. I bet they found proof of the shivans and were studying them for like a decade or so until finally discovered by the shivans (gti did have stealth tech). It's entirely one thing for a small shivan wing following an apollo BOMBER variant from an obvious battle with the lucifer...and also that the lucifer was following. There must was one hell of a battle where gti went after the lucifer with a ton of bombers only to find out it was shielded and that one apollo bomber got away just barely.

How do i know the lucifer was being attacked by gti? The fact that the lucifer wasn't following a fighter, but that it was following a bomber that barely got away from the engagement. The fact that the pilot had a mesmorizing freakish detail of shivan ships in his head. The gta in general didn't know about the shivans, and gti is the intelligence agency of the gta, so it would be dead obvious that gti would be gathering intelligence and got wiped out by the shivans before getting a chance to deliver the information.

Feel free to tear this apart. It's got some holes. It'd make one hell of a campaign for fs though. The fact is you know the gta knew of the shivans before ross 128. The fact that the lucifer was following a bomber says a huge thing that there was an engagement with the lucifer with prior knowledge of the lucifer.....or the lucifer just showed up out of nowhere and completely decimated a tv battle. Like i said there's some holes.

EDIT: The shivan plasma energy claw could be considered the shivan form of offering extra stimulation. The reach around or bowling ball grip. The shivans would have surely killed bosch

[Rodo]

what do you mean?? where did you saw a bomber being chased by a lucifer?? in the intro movie of fs1??

[esarai]

He's right, the Apollo is a fighter, not a bomber.

Thanks, by the way:

I applaud you for your open mind.

[Snail]

He's right, the Apollo is a fighter, not a bomber.

It was a bomber variant. It had a different bomb configuration and the FSRefBible specifically calls it "bomber"

[BengalTiger]

in the intro movie of fs1??

Bingo

[Snail]

I don't think the bomber engaged the Lucifer, there's nothing to support that.

[jr2]

It didn't.

[FreeSpaceFreak]

* FSF watches the intro again

Nah, the guy looks & sounds really scared, and pilots aren't known for their acting skills

[S-99]

There's nothing that doesn't really support that the apollo didn't attack the lucifer either. The apollo was nonetheless being followed. And for it being in such a damaged state. It either was on a mission to pull an assault on the lucifer with gtvi forces for knowing what was up and coming and trying to stop it. Or the lucifer happened to stop by a TV engagement and wiped out everything but that apollo.

The fact that the shivans were not first encountered at ross 128 suggests gtvi with prior knowledge. I mean how come everyone in the fs universe gets to know about ross 128 where everything also got destroyed as opposed to prior to ross 128 where everything also got destroyed? It was also a freaking apollo bomber running away too, there was some big type of ship that needed detonating if a bomber gets sortied, then there was a wing of them, but that in itself is not good enough in trying to find out if gtvi forces were trying to destroy the lucifer before they got surprised (woops, shielded...SPF!!!).

No **** the pilot was scared anyhow

[Snail]

There is no evidence to support the pilot attacked the Lucifer, in fact there is canon evidence against it. I seriously doubt the Apollo attacked the Lucifer, since he was definitely not acting. What he said, I believe, was absolutely true and that he knew nothing of the true identity of the Shivans. I believe he was just attacking Vasudans when he himself was attacked by the Shivans, who tracked his fighter to find the main GTA base.

I do agree, though, that the GTI knew more about the Shivans than they were letting on. Even before the Shivans are revealed it is mentioned that there was a deflector shield array undergoing research (see MX-50 tech description).

[jr2]

Even with no shields, you wouldn't expect success from using an Apollo-bomber against a ship the size of the Lucifer.  Anyone remember how long it takes to take down a Demon-class destroyer?  Hmm?  With an Orion helping you, no less??  And, if they were trying to kill the Lucifer, there wouldn't be only one survivor.  As they would already be aware of the shielded fighters, their superior weapons and manuevering, etc.  Unless you really think the GTI just decided that, upon finding an unknown species, they were going to attack with no intelligence regarding said species. 

[S-99]

I'm saying they probably didn't know about the shielding on the lucifer. Wings of apollo bombers. We don't know how much havoc they could wreak. I know if i had an apollo bomber that i'd be going to town. And this is gti we're talking about. As one of the mission briefs of the expansion to fs1 said, they do have different weaponry that can have different affects. Gti did experiment with technologies and different ideas. They could have been the early testers of the avenger cannon (probably were). Finding out if shivan fighters are shielded is easy. Finding out if other capships of the shivans are shielded is also easy...they aren't. Finding the lucifer and going oh **** with an example of it's beams, launching a preemptive strike to get rid of the sucker asap, and being pleasantly surprised further could have happened (lucifer probably wasn't the first encountered shivan vessel by gti...i at least think gti weren't letting on to more of the knowledge they had of the shivans).

Of course this is following the premise that the apollo bomber was a gti pilot and had escaped an attack on the lucifer barely.

[Snail]

The Avenger didn't originally work on shields FYI.

[S-99]

Gti still had other weaponry the rest of the gta didn't have.

[kalnaren]

Hey, first post here, long time lurker. This thread got me deeply interested. The storyline of FreeSpace and the enigmatic Shivans is one of the things I think that has kept my interest in this game ever since I played FS1.

Anyways, I think it's highly unlikely the pilot in the opening cutscene was attacking a Shivan warship. The pilot makes the flat statement that "we were in a skirmish with a Vasudan patrol, and they just came out of nowhere." Considering this pilot is scared ****less I find it hard to believe this is all acting.

Also, I don't agree with the theory that bombers would have only been sortied if there was legit need for heavy bombers (in this case, attacking the Lucifer). The Apollo bomber variant would not have been a heavy bomber by any stretch of the mind, and most certainly after 14 years of war would not be the heaviest attack craft in the GTA arsenal. More likely it was a support wing deployed with standard fighter wings to provide heavier firepower should it be needed if the patrol encountered something like an Aten cruiser.

I do however agree that the GTI knew about the Shivans, or at least had some idea, prior to FS1. I find the best evidence of this is during one of the command briefings where Admiral Wolf mentions "There is to be no more talk of phantom ships." It was made pretty obvious that there were no survivors from Ross 128 ("The investigation of the Ross 128 attack has turned up nothing"), or, at the very least, nothing that wasn't classified by the GTI. So where did this talk of phantom ships originate I wonder?

Anyways, that's my $0.02 on the current angle of this discussion.

[FreeSpaceFreak]

Good statements, all four of them

Additionally, bombers (even Medusas) are sortied quite often to help with dogfights during the Great War. Yes, that's mostly in red alert missions, but what the hell.

The talk of phantom ships... Well, they knew Ross 128 was attacked, didn't they? They wouldn't be so sure if nobody explicitly told them, so I do think there were survivors. Before they were imprisoned (or so) by the GTI, they told their story to 'normal' GTA pilots, who started the talk. Anyway, I haven't played ST, so I'm only guessing at this point.

Welcome again and enjoy your stay!

[BengalTiger]

Dayum FreeSpaceFreak beat me to it...

Attention artillery, prepare beams.

Target kalnaren, fire when ready.













You are hereby officially welcomed to Hard-Light.net.

Exits are to your right and to your left. Be advised, one is watched over by a female Vasudan, and the other by a Terran mechanic, also female.
Under your seat is a giant water gun, bear in mind that it uses superheated plasma accelerated to high sublight speeds, so don't hurt yourself with it.
Above you are the ventilation shafts. Feel free to explore them, there are many places to visit in them. If you meet a Shivan, and you will, don't worry. He's called Carl and he won't eat you if you give him your lunch. If not, well... we'll miss you here.

In case of a real emergency, there are plasma guns and the Hammer of Ban in lockers towards the front. However, only Admins,  , Chuck Norris and a hyperintelligent shade of blue can open the aforementioned lockers.

Have a good day!

[FreeSpaceFreak]

Yippee, someone who still gives welcome speeches! I didn't dare to at first, but now I'll post a link to jr2's welcome speeches^TM

[Snail]

The administration said that it wasn't allowed...

[Fenrir]

*Finished reading the thread*

So far, some ideas that I liked are:

1) The Lucy group in FS1 was isolated from the rest of the Shivans during or after the Ancient conflict, only to be awakened during the T-V war, explaining the lack of beam weapons as well as the differences in their policies towards the GTVA.

2) The idea that the Shivans are like the "monsters at the edge of the map." The fact that they seem to defy logic and reason is what makes them such great enemies. While we can outsmart them tactically, we can`t figure them out.

With that in mind I don`t like the theories where the shivans are tools or servants to some even more sophisticated race. It totally kills the mysterious aspect of them, as well as the awesome factor.