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Off-Topic Discussion => Gaming Discussion => Topic started by: General Battuta on December 12, 2010, 11:11:57 am

Title: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: General Battuta on December 12, 2010, 11:11:57 am
That trailer (http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2010/12/12/the-elders-scrolls-v-skyrim-confirmed/#more-45999) was cheesy as hell but...oddly appealing. MEN are grunting and singing about ME and DRAGONS

unfortunately gamebryo.  :( - EDIT: allegedly not gamebryo!

I wanted to love Morrowind but I was young and bounced off the opacity of its sandbox and the cliff racers. Oblivion felt plastic and cheapened. What d'you reckon the odds are on this one being decent?

edit: oooooooooooooh 'skyrim' is 'sky rim' i never KNEW
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: TrashMan on December 12, 2010, 11:19:31 am
Some of the stuff that narrator is saying is hard to understand....hrm..
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: General Battuta on December 12, 2010, 11:27:07 am
Some of the stuff that narrator is saying is hard to understand....hrm..

His accent is funny. Basically he's all 'There were dragons, we forgot about them, now they're coming back, there's some kind of civil war too. Fortunately the dragons are scared of some badass called 'gubulubuab' in their tongue, it means 'The Dragonborn.'

fantasy plot hoooo
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: SpardaSon21 on December 12, 2010, 11:29:18 am
I thought Bethesda was using a new engine for Skyrim instead of Gamebryo.
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: General Battuta on December 12, 2010, 11:38:55 am
I thought Bethesda was using a new engine for Skyrim instead of Gamebryo.

Nope, we'd all hoped but it's still a modified Gamebryo. Id Tech 5 will not be involved.
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: Ransom on December 12, 2010, 11:46:36 am
skyrim more like snorerim

i want a sequel to nehrim
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: SpardaSon21 on December 12, 2010, 12:12:33 pm
I thought Bethesda was using a new engine for Skyrim instead of Gamebryo.

Nope, we'd all hoped but it's still a modified Gamebryo. Id Tech 5 will not be involved.
Bah.  This rumor was a lie. (http://au.xbox360.ign.com/articles/113/1136356p1.html)  Less Gamebryo, more something, anything new.
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: mxlm on December 12, 2010, 01:04:35 pm
Quote from: twitter
Seeing lots of speculation about #tesv game engine. It's brand new... and it's spectacular!

We'll see.
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: General Battuta on December 12, 2010, 01:07:31 pm
Quote from: twitter
Seeing lots of speculation about #tesv game engine. It's brand new... and it's spectacular!

We'll see.

Yeah, I saw that linked too, but I think by 'brand new' they mean 'modified Gamebryo.' I'll be overjoyed to be wrong, though.
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: Scotty on December 12, 2010, 01:46:24 pm
Anyone else really like the music for the trailer?  It's obviously similar to the Oblivion menu theme, but the differences are enough to make it easily distinct, and much more interesting.
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: General Battuta on December 12, 2010, 01:49:30 pm
Anyone else really like the music for the trailer?  It's obviously similar to the Oblivion menu theme, but the differences are enough to make it easily distinct, and much more interesting.

The Oblivion theme was a watered down version of the Morrowind theme, but yeah, it's the Elder Scrolls theme with a choral overlay. It was good in a cheesy way.
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: mxlm on December 12, 2010, 03:14:49 pm
Yeah, I saw that linked too, but I think by 'brand new' they mean 'modified Gamebryo.' I'll be overjoyed to be wrong, though.
I suspect what we'll learn when Bethesda adopts a new engine is that, well, it ain't just the engine that's the problem.

Overjoyed if wrong, of course.
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: MR_T3D on December 12, 2010, 05:08:57 pm
if they manage to make people move around like people instead of what we saw in fallout games, and the textures/lighting look nothing like fallout, then sure, gamebryo is great, it has polygons 'n' stuff
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: BloodEagle on December 12, 2010, 10:34:14 pm
Fallout wasn't made with the Gamebryo engine.  :hopping:
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: Ransom on December 12, 2010, 10:34:48 pm
So apparently they are using a new engine.

http://www.ripten.com/2010/12/12/all-new-engine-for-the-elder-scrolls-v-skyrim-sam-n/
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: General Battuta on December 12, 2010, 10:45:46 pm
YAY

although I suspect mxlm may be proven right.

Fallout wasn't made with the Gamebryo engine.  :hopping:

FO3 was.
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: Hades on December 12, 2010, 10:47:38 pm
As is New Vegas. Ugh, thank god they aren't using that engine anymore, or at least not for this game.
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: Turambar on December 13, 2010, 12:04:46 am
Everyone trashes Gamebryo, but using Gamebryo is the reason the game is so highly moddable, and why the game is actually playable today (if you have it on PC)
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: mxlm on December 13, 2010, 01:13:42 am
And it's not as though people haven't made rock-solid games with gamebryo. Or at least Civ IV was rock-solid by the time I picked it up, two expansions down the road.
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: BloodEagle on December 13, 2010, 01:16:02 am
Fallout wasn't made with the Gamebryo engine.  :hopping:

FO3 was.

Er.... And?  :confused:
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: General Battuta on December 13, 2010, 07:12:43 am
Fallout wasn't made with the Gamebryo engine.  :hopping:

FO3 was.

Er.... And?  :confused:

And you knew that was what we were talking about, and decided to launch this tangent anyway?  :p
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: BloodEagle on December 13, 2010, 09:06:45 am
Well, yes!  I think that it's very important for people who call that game "Fallout" to be quickly crucified.

The only acceptable titles for that game are "Fallout 3" and "Bethesda's Post Apocalyptic Shooter Bonanza."
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: General Battuta on December 13, 2010, 09:08:39 am
I didn't play Fallout 3 for more than a couple hours before quitting in disgust, so I know what you're saying.

That said, New Vegas was by the original Fallout developers and I'm tempted to give it a run.
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: mxlm on December 13, 2010, 01:27:03 pm
I didn't play Fallout 3 for more than a couple hours before quitting in disgust, so I know what you're saying.

That said, New Vegas was by the original Fallout developers and I'm tempted to give it a run.
Not knowing exactly what your problem with 3 was makes this recommendation less vehement, but yes, go get New Vegas.
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: Ghostavo on December 13, 2010, 05:53:53 pm
Can anyone actually understand the lyrics of the trailer's music?
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: General Battuta on December 13, 2010, 05:56:04 pm
Can anyone actually understand the lyrics of the trailer's music?

I hope not, aren't they supposed to be in some kind of fictional language?
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: Ghostavo on December 13, 2010, 05:58:03 pm
It's english. I can only understand the first few verses.
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: Ace on December 13, 2010, 06:02:18 pm
Well, yes!  I think that it's very important for people who call that game "Fallout" to be quickly crucified.

The only acceptable titles for that game are "Fallout 3" and "Bethesda's Post Apocalyptic Shooter Bonanza."

New Vegas redeems all. If you still object, you'll be personally crucified by Caesar.


Anyway, Bethesda goes through odd cycles when it comes to writing.

For instance despite Oblivion looking generic I was looking forward to it because of Bloodmoon's quest design and plot. I assumed it'd have that sort of depth and fun despite a bland art style. I was wrong.

Shivering Isles was overall fun story and art wise.

Fallout 3, designed  by the person who did the best quests in Oblivion, was still bland. Which suggests some nasty top-down tinkering by the producers. (considering things holding some Morrowind quests back like the "no betrayal in TES" rule that pissed off its lead writer...)

It pretty much seems that the "money maker" game has the most meddling, followed by letting the team do their job with expansions.

Anyway, if the regular Bethesda producers were completely hands-off and let the team do its thing (like New Vegas, they let Obsidian make the game they wanted), this could be good.
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: Grizzly on December 14, 2010, 08:06:19 am
I didn't play Fallout 3 for more than a couple hours before quitting in disgust, so I know what you're saying.

That said, New Vegas was by the original Fallout developers and I'm tempted to give it a run.
Not knowing exactly what your problem with 3 was makes this recommendation less vehement, but yes, go get New Vegas.

The story was the major problem. Sure, you could do anything, but there wasn't a point.
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: Nemesis6 on December 14, 2010, 08:54:54 am
New Vegas redeems all. If you still object, you'll be personally crucified by Caesar.

I raise strong objections due to my savegames being corrupted!
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: BloodEagle on December 14, 2010, 09:04:17 am
New Vegas redeems all. If you still object, you'll be personally crucified by Caesar.

I raise strong objections due to my savegames being corrupted!

To be fair, you bought an Obsidian game.  You should have seen that one coming.  :P
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: Grizzly on December 14, 2010, 10:00:53 am
New Vegas redeems all. If you still object, you'll be personally crucified by Caesar.

I raise strong objections due to my savegames being corrupted!

To be fair, you bought an Obsidian game.  You should have seen that one coming.  :P

Savegame corruption was in the Bethesda made Fallout 3 as well.

They are both developers which ship rather buggy games, although they are also soo awesome in their own right that everyone ignores that. So combine the two and you get the most awesome unpolished gem ever.
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: Nemesis6 on December 15, 2010, 11:40:29 am
It's like a twist on the battered-wife syndrome isn't it? They beat us time and time again, but they're so awesome that we can forgive this! Also, where else are we gonna go? EA? Ubisoft? Come on... They really love us, and if falling down the stairs one too many times and hitting the doorknob with your face is the price to pay for that love, so be it!
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: Turambar on December 15, 2010, 04:16:23 pm
It's like a twist on the battered-wife syndrome isn't it? They beat us time and time again, but they're so awesome that we can forgive this! Also, where else are we gonna go? EA? Ubisoft? Come on... They really love us, and if falling down the stairs one too many times and hitting the doorknob with your face is the price to pay for that love, so be it!

Comments like this make me happy that I'm working at Epic
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: T-LoW on December 15, 2010, 04:17:46 pm
w00t?!

How's the new Unreal-engine going? :D
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: Turambar on December 15, 2010, 06:53:26 pm
w00t?!

How's the new Unreal-engine going? :D

I'm not in Engine QA, just Bulletstorm QA.

If I was in Engine QA, i totally couldn't tell you anything about it.  (we sign NDAs and stuff)
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: SpardaSon21 on December 15, 2010, 10:34:08 pm
Are there storms of bullets in Bulletstorm?  I mean, you aren't under a NDA for something like that, are you? :P
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: Turambar on December 15, 2010, 11:03:49 pm
Are there storms of bullets in Bulletstorm?  I mean, you aren't under a NDA for something like that, are you? :P

I can tell you everything that's been released to the public in press releases and videos.  I can even rephrase it so it sounds like something new!
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: mxlm on December 15, 2010, 11:47:42 pm
I can tell you everything that's been released to the public in press releases and videos.  I can even rephrase it so it sounds like something new!
Please demonstrate this alleged ability.
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: Turambar on December 15, 2010, 11:54:40 pm
I can tell you everything that's been released to the public in press releases and videos.  I can even rephrase it so it sounds like something new!
Please demonstrate this alleged ability.

Sorry, this is a Skyrim thread.  Please direct your questions to the Bulletstorm thread.
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: MP-Ryan on December 17, 2010, 04:57:06 pm
You guys can really be unabashed haters sometimes :P

I'm finally playing through Morrowind now, and while I find it is significantly more difficult than Oblivion, I've thoroughly enjoyed both.  Yes, I can see where the Morrowind fanboi-wank club got upset with Oblivion, because it removed some of the more tedious aspects and streamlined the gameplay, but neither is a bad game.  Yes, Oblivion made the game generally less complicated and more accessible to a broader base, but I won't call that a bad thing.  Personally, I LIKE FPS-RPG hybrids, and I'd like to see more of them.  System Shock 2 still ranks on my list as best FPS-RPG hybrid ever made for gameplay mechanics, and ranks second next to Deus Ex on my overall list.  The worst thing about TES 3 and 4 (and their respective expansions) is the painful agony of the leveling system... though at least Morrowind lets you train as much as you want.  And while the engine isn't the best in a game world (I'm looking at Source, here), it isn't all that terrible either.

And again, the hate for Fallout 3?  OK, I'll admit, it wasn't nearly as good (IMHO) as all the reviews made it out to be.  The world seemed to consist entirely of shades of brown, gray, and green, the quests weren't nearly as compelling as those in other FPS/RPGs, and the characters were flatter than I would have liked, but it still ranks right up there for me.

Thus, I am looking forward to TES:5.  Maybe they'll change the leveling system (though I doubt it).  Hopefully the dialog will be better.  The engine isn't the worst in the world, and there's a 0% chance they'll use anything like Source, so as long as it isn't a step backward I won't mind terribly.  But so far, every TES game I've played has been more fleshed out in plot than its predecessors, improved the gameplay in measurable ways (despite the lamentations of the dinosaurs in the fanbase), and generally set the bar higher.  Here's hoping Skyrim will be more of the same.  Yes, there will be bugs... but I'd rather a game with bugs that will be ultimately fixed either by the developers or a loyal fanbase than a flawless game on Valve's release schedule.  I love Valve, but I'd like to play Episode 3 before I turn 30 and it's really not looking good.
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: Topgun on December 17, 2010, 08:00:42 pm
IMO, the TES games are unplayable without mods. With mods however, they can be amazing.
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: General Battuta on December 17, 2010, 09:17:31 pm
Source is actually a bit of a mess. I think CryEngine 3 is the current best engine in the world.  :nervous:
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: MP-Ryan on December 17, 2010, 09:33:37 pm
IMO, the TES games are unplayable without mods. With mods however, they can be amazing.

Out of curiosity, which mods?  I've played them with very few mods (the Unofficial Community patches are essential, and I've installed graphical upgrades for Morrowind), none of which induced gameplay changes and found them quite compelling regardless of the leveling system.  It's really my only gripe, and that's because I'm neurotic and simply must have the 5X bonuses.  I much prefer the leveling systems in Mass Effect and Fallout 3 - though I do think a Deus Ex-style skill points system could be compelling too.

Aside from those minor things, I've never found mods were necessary - though there is some damn good community content for Oblivion that adds questlines as good or better than the stock game.
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: General Battuta on December 17, 2010, 09:34:35 pm
Cliff racers made me quit Morrowind.
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: MP-Ryan on December 17, 2010, 09:38:51 pm
Cliff racers made me quit Morrowind.

Enchant longsword with soul trap 1 sec, weakness to magicka (highest you can get depending on enchant points on weapon) and 100% absorb health.  Poof - no more cliff racer problems.  For that matter, a Sword of White Woe (which can be stolen without consequence from a guard tower in Balmora) can get a low-level character through a greater deal of the game.

To be fair, I don't have the patience to stumble around Morrowind for 200+ hours like I did Oblivion - I'll admit to using the UESP Wiki, which is invaluable for gameplay information.  And no, I don't feel even slightly guilty - this game is huge, and work+life+wife=limited gaming time.

Seriously though, you should give it another go.  The scope of this game is enormous.
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: Mongoose on December 18, 2010, 02:20:26 am
You guys can really be unabashed haters sometimes :P
I feel like it's safe to take the advice of some of the fellows with a significant side-dish of salt, since they often seem to take hyper-criticism to frightening new levels. :p
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: X3N0-Life-Form on December 18, 2010, 02:23:16 am
Cliff racers made me quit Morrowind.
That, and Vivec.
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: Grizzly on December 18, 2010, 03:48:31 pm
IMO, the TES games are unplayable without mods. With mods however, they can be amazing.

Out of curiosity, which mods?  I've played them with very few mods (the Unofficial Community patches are essential, and I've installed graphical upgrades for Morrowind), none of which induced gameplay changes and found them quite compelling regardless of the leveling system.  It's really my only gripe, and that's because I'm neurotic and simply must have the 5X bonuses.  I much prefer the leveling systems in Mass Effect and Fallout 3 - though I do think a Deus Ex-style skill points system could be compelling too.

Aside from those minor things, I've never found mods were necessary - though there is some damn good community content for Oblivion that adds questlines as good or better than the stock game.

There's an XP-levelling mod. It might interest you.
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: Ransom on December 18, 2010, 05:59:54 pm
Nehrim fixes many of Oblivion's problems including the reproducible issue where the game was made by Bethesda
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: General Battuta on December 19, 2010, 12:16:13 am
Nehrim fixes many of Oblivion's problems including the reproducible issue where the game was made by Bethesda

okay that was pretty good i think i'm going to steal that
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: Topgun on December 19, 2010, 09:26:47 am
IMO, the TES games are unplayable without mods. With mods however, they can be amazing.

Out of curiosity, which mods?  I've played them with very few mods (the Unofficial Community patches are essential, and I've installed graphical upgrades for Morrowind), none of which induced gameplay changes and found them quite compelling regardless of the leveling system.  It's really my only gripe, and that's because I'm neurotic and simply must have the 5X bonuses.  I much prefer the leveling systems in Mass Effect and Fallout 3 - though I do think a Deus Ex-style skill points system could be compelling too.

Aside from those minor things, I've never found mods were necessary - though there is some damn good community content for Oblivion that adds questlines as good or better than the stock game.
GCD (http://planetelderscrolls.gamespy.com/View.php?view=Mods.Detail&id=2030) is a MUST. Personally I can't stand the tes leveling system, its counterintuitive and breaks immersion. If you get one mod, get this one.

Tamriel Rebuilt 1 (http://planetelderscrolls.gamespy.com/View.php?view=Mods.Detail&id=5133) and 2 (http://planetelderscrolls.gamespy.com/View.php?view=Mods.Detail&id=7040) are good if you want more area to explore.

Magic Icon Border (icon replacer) (http://planetelderscrolls.gamespy.com/View.php?view=Mods.Detail&id=4147) is another must have. The change is small but its the little things that add to immersion.

Vampire Embrace (http://planetelderscrolls.gamespy.com/View.php?view=Mods.Detail&id=771) is great if you like vampires. Vampiric Hunger III (http://planetelderscrolls.gamespy.com/View.php?view=Mods.Detail&id=1914) is mod for it (a mod for mod), also really good.

The Imperial Legion Badge (http://planetelderscrolls.gamespy.com/View.php?view=Mods.Detail&id=461) is another must have if you are going to play the imperial legion quest.

Full Glass Armor (http://planetelderscrolls.gamespy.com/View.php?view=Mods.Detail&id=2467) again, its the little things that add to immersion. Why would there be glass cuirass and greaves but no helm or gauntlets?

H.E.L.L.U.V.A . Wicked Weapons (http://planetelderscrolls.gamespy.com/View.php?view=Mods.Detail&id=6589) adds a ridicules amount of weapons to the game, most of them are retextures. Some people don't like mods like this, but I think Morrowind adn TES in general lack weapon variety, so I usually use this mod.

Weathered Signs (http://planetelderscrolls.gamespy.com/View.php?view=Mods.Detail&id=133) actually lets you read signs.

Thats all I can think of, Im not including the graphical mods because then it would be too many to list.
Be sure to use wyre mash (http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Tes3Mod:Wrye_Mash) to install the mods and avoid conflicts.

EDIT Fixed the first link
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: Nemesis6 on December 19, 2010, 05:28:55 pm
I can list one essential graphics mod - Qarl's Parallaxed textures.
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: starbug on December 21, 2010, 09:53:55 am
 Don't know if you guys have heard but Bethesda's community manager Nick Breckon has confirmed that The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim is running on an "all new" engine. I just hope it isn't as buggy as thier previous games! I have to say i am happy about this game and am looking forward to it as i loved the elder scroll series
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: NGTM-1R on December 27, 2010, 06:35:24 pm
IMO, the TES games are unplayable without mods. With mods however, they can be amazing.

The majority of community mods add crap superenemies and crap superweapons. You can already break the hell out of the game by proper use of the existing ones. (Five Ebony Arrows of Slaying, goddamit. That's one for every final boss AND a spare.)

I think MP's missing the point however; I don't hate Oblivion for dumbing down the game systems, but rather for being a less interesting and less original take on the concepts. Morrowind had a much more interesting level of detail and thought and creativity to it, whereas Oblivion moved towards generic D&D/Tolkien clone world number infinity.

The plot of Morrowind can basically be described as killing the immediate evils. Dagoth Ur, however, may be correct in his view that he was the betrayed one rather than the betrayer, and the Tribunal Gods who took up the mantle to protect their people from the fickle Daedra have largely lost it by this point as you discover in the Tribunal expansion. Yes, you're doing what needs to be done, but it didn't always need doing. Bloodmoon is lighter on plot than that, but the Raven Rock set is pretty good about giving you an interesting story and some intrigue, and a sense of achievement if you're working for the good guys.

The plot of Oblivion is..."evil god is invading, player crush". The world is more confined, and less interesting overall.
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: Topgun on December 27, 2010, 08:40:39 pm
IMO, the TES games are unplayable without mods. With mods however, they can be amazing.

The majority of community mods add crap superenemies and crap superweapons.
90% of everything sucks. The good mods tend to add difficulty.
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: NGTM-1R on December 27, 2010, 11:05:58 pm
90% of everything sucks. The good mods tend to add difficulty.

What did you think I meant by supercrap enemies? Permanent magicka regeneration and immunity to normal weapons for wizards is not fun, goddammit.
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: Ghostavo on December 28, 2010, 03:02:40 am
The plot of Oblivion is..."evil god is invading, player crush". The world is more confined, and less interesting overall.

"Evil" god is taking back his own home and the player needs to stop him. Who's evil here?
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: NGTM-1R on December 28, 2010, 08:34:58 pm
"Evil" god is taking back his own home and the player needs to stop him. Who's evil here?

Really.

Because, you know, there's any evidence for that.

At all.

Anywhere.

Somebody got a quote, a citation, something that isn't direct propaganda from the mouths of the Mythic Dawn and therefore suspect? Morrowind actually offered you third-party corroboration so you could take it seriously.
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: Ghostavo on December 29, 2010, 10:52:30 am
The Mythic Dawn are the only ones who mention Mehrunes Dagon, therefore it's kind of hard to have any references to him. Yet ingame (Oblivion at least) you don't get a quote about who created Nirn.

And since in Lore, the creator of Nirn is identified differently by the various races/cultures, I don't see why that interpretation should be less valid than the others. In fact, to me, it makes more sense since it suggests the entire universe to be created equal, as realms of Oblivion, rather than existing various realms of Oblivion and then an entirely different realm apart from them.
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: MP-Ryan on December 30, 2010, 10:30:42 am
http://www.pcgamer.com/2010/12/30/15-things-we-want-to-see-in-the-elder-scrolls-v-skyrim/

Read this.  I think I agree with the whole list =)
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: Waistless on January 01, 2011, 06:59:04 am
A better AI (combat) would be nice too. And one that doesn't cheat (yes, i always know where you are when invisibility runs out)
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: iamzack on January 01, 2011, 02:21:30 pm
children toddlers and babies

i want to snap their little necks and hammer their parents in front of them

:)
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: X3N0-Life-Form on January 01, 2011, 03:52:57 pm
i want to snap their little necks and hammer their parents in front of them
Sometimes I just like being a complete monster in RPGs. :)
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: Topgun on January 01, 2011, 06:42:32 pm
children toddlers and babies

i want to snap their little necks and hammer their parents in front of them

:)

then get ready for an AO rating
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: Dark RevenantX on January 01, 2011, 07:06:19 pm
children toddlers and babies

i want to snap their little necks and hammer their parents in front of them

:)

then get ready for an AO rating
More games should be AO.  Especially online games.
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: iamzack on January 02, 2011, 03:49:55 pm
children toddlers and babies

i want to snap their little necks and hammer their parents in front of them

:)

then get ready for an AO rating

i am an adult

i should be allowed to slaughter digital pictures of babies if i wanna!
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: SpardaSon21 on January 02, 2011, 04:00:35 pm
You're perfectly free to design your own game about slaughtering babies.  Just don't expect anyone besides you to play it is all.
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: iamzack on January 02, 2011, 04:56:36 pm
Yeah, I'm also perfectly free to build my own rocket ship if I wanna go to the moon. What a dumb thing to say.

Chances are, keeping the childrums out of the games is more about preventing modders from making nekkid childrums mods as easily. As if pedos are gonna be all "well, I can't make nekkid babies in this game, guess I won't go out and raep real babies after all!"

Oh yeah, I also want to be able to fish. I'm surprised something so tedious was left out of Oblivion.
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: Grizzly on January 03, 2011, 02:41:06 am
children toddlers and babies

i want to snap their little necks and hammer their parents in front of them

:)

You watch Battlestar Galactica too much
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: Nemesis6 on January 03, 2011, 04:11:43 am
Oh yeah, I also want to be able to fish. I'm surprised something so tedious was left out of Oblivion.

Don't write it off just yet. If they play their cards right, graphically and gameplay-wise, you might just find yourself actually wanting to do do that. It's all about immersion, mkay?
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: iamzack on January 03, 2011, 09:12:27 pm
fishing in real life is tedious

if they make it fun, it will break immersion
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: NGTM-1R on January 04, 2011, 03:21:24 am
Zack has a point.
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: BloodEagle on January 04, 2011, 03:36:17 am
Zack has a point.

 :shaking:
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: Mongoose on January 04, 2011, 02:17:07 pm
I thought fishing was a thinly-veiled excuse to sit on a boat and drink beer for several hours.
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: NGTM-1R on January 05, 2011, 12:36:56 am
I thought fishing was a thinly-veiled excuse to sit on a boat and drink beer for several hours.

It's actually not, surprisingly. At least if you intend to catch anything rather than tell the eponymous fish stories.
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: iamzack on January 05, 2011, 12:25:06 pm
Then again.. it's hard to justify sitting there with a fishing rod when you could just walk into the water and reliably punch the fish to death.
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: StarSlayer on January 05, 2011, 12:46:29 pm
children toddlers and babies

i want to snap their little necks and hammer their parents in front of them

:)

I would imagine you would want to hammer their parents first then snap their necks.  If they are already dead then hammering the parents in front of them won't have the psychological effect you want.
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: MP-Ryan on January 08, 2011, 10:31:23 am
More details on Skyrim.  Looks like the entire leveling system is getting a much needed-overall, thank the Spaghetti Monster =)

http://www.vg247.com/2011/01/08/the-elder-scrolls-v-skyrim-details-outed-on-combat-leveling-races-more/#more-135907
http://www.vg247.com/2011/01/08/bethesda-clarifies-skyrims-enemy-level-scaling-feature/
http://kotaku.com/5728236/the-next-elder-scrolls-has-new-combat--levelling
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: iamzack on January 08, 2011, 10:55:46 pm
FIRST LINK SAYS KIDS
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: Flipside on January 08, 2011, 11:05:27 pm
LOL

Betcha they'll do a Fable and not allow you to attack children though ;)

As someone pushing 40 I should be one of the crowd finding the idea of putting children into a game involving sword-wielding maniacs as worrying, instead I find it somewhat lulzy.

Oh well, here's to refusing to grow up...
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: iamzack on January 09, 2011, 01:43:11 pm
I'm sure there'll be a mod somewhere to remove that check... maybe... :<
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: Nemesis6 on January 11, 2011, 05:17:45 pm
LOL

Betcha they'll do a Fable and not allow you to attack children though ;)

As someone pushing 40 I should be one of the crowd finding the idea of putting children into a game involving sword-wielding maniacs as worrying, instead I find it somewhat lulzy.

Oh well, here's to refusing to grow up...

Your post planted the seed in my mind that got me lolling in real life. I just pictured someone making a custom plotline that consists solely of running around and chopping up kids!  :lol:

Now, leak information of it to Fox News, and we'll all be finding out, at 11, whether or not computer games are turning our children into serial killers.
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: Topgun on January 14, 2011, 12:21:10 pm
Quote from: IGN
The latest issue of Game Informer contains fresh gameplay details on Bethesda's next massive title, The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim, set for release this November.

Skyrm's story is set 200 years after the events of The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion, and the world of Tamriel is in shambles. The empire has fallen to the elves, the Blades are gone, the Nords hate each other, and a civil war is about the break out. Oh, and that big dragon the Elder Scrolls prophesied about? Yeah, he's arrived, too. Players will take control of the last remaining Dragonborn, a dragon hunter anointed by the gods to help fend off the threat.

Bethesda's newest title features a brand-spanking new engine where every object in the game now casts a shadow as well as improved draw-distances. Textures are sharper and more detailed and the environments are livelier. There's also the addition of a HUD-less first-person view and "improved" third-person camera option.

There will be five massive cities that span Skyrim's environment, which ranges from frozen tundra to rocky mountain tops. There is also new wildlife, such as Sabre-toothed Cats and Wooly Mammoths.

The combat is getting a bit of an overhaul, too. Players will be able to equip any weapon or spell to either hand at any time and even duel wield two of the same weapon. A new customizable menu is being added to help swap load-outs easily in battle.

Bethesda has also done away with the character class system and reworked the game's leveling mechanic. Players' skills will level up the more they are used, contributing to your overall level growth. "Raising one skill from 34 to 35 is going to level you faster than raising one from 11 to 12," Bethesda designer Todd Howard told the magazine. Players can also level pass 50, but it becomes much slower after that point.

The team has also added Fallout 3's perk system, where each new level gained allows players to add special abilities to their character, including increase in damage to dagger stealth attacks or allowing your mace to ignore enemy armor.

Skyrim's NPC conversations are a lot more realistic. Aside from including even more voice actors, the AI-controlled characters will actually move about and continue on with the activities they were doing before being interrupted. Towns also include more activities to do, such farming, mining, woodcutting and cooking.

Bethesda also revamped the game's menu system. Howard said the team used Apple's iTunes as inspiration and direction. Players will be greeted with a compass-style overlay with four options: Skill, Inventory, Map, and Magic. Weapons and spells can be tagged as a 'favorite' for quick selection. Every item is a 3D object than can be viewed and examined.

Check out the latest issue of Game Informer for additional details.

Skyrim is set for release on November 11, 2011 for Xbox 360, PC, and PlayStation 3.
http://pc.ign.com/articles/114/1143498p1.html
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: Scotty on January 14, 2011, 12:28:49 pm
Quote
Bethesda's newest title features a brand-spanking new engine where every object in the game now casts a shadow as well as improved draw-distances. Textures are sharper and more detailed and the environments are livelier. There's also the addition of a HUD-less first-person view and "improved" third-person camera option.

Woot.

Quote
The combat is getting a bit of an overhaul, too. Players will be able to equip any weapon or spell to either hand at any time and even duel wield two of the same weapon. A new customizable menu is being added to help swap load-outs easily in battle.

Interesting, but I hope it doesn't go overboard somehow.

Quote
Bethesda has also done away with the character class system and reworked the game's leveling mechanic. Players' skills will level up the more they are used, contributing to your overall level growth. "Raising one skill from 34 to 35 is going to level you faster than raising one from 11 to 12," Bethesda designer Todd Howard told the magazine. Players can also level pass 50, but it becomes much slower after that point.

This makes me kinda nervous.  Probably could be better explained, but still.

Quote
Skyrim's NPC conversations are a lot more realistic. Aside from including even more voice actors, the AI-controlled characters will actually move about and continue on with the activities they were doing before being interrupted.

OH SWEET JESUS YES!

Quote
Towns also include more activities to do, such farming, mining, woodcutting and cooking.

Meh.  Minigames.


Quote
The team has also added Fallout 3's perk system, where each new level gained allows players to add special abilities to their character, including increase in damage to dagger stealth attacks or allowing your mace to ignore enemy armor.

I'm torn on this.  I absolutely love the perks in Fallout 3 and New Vegas, but I'm not sure if it'll be effective and fun to use in an Elder Scrolls game.  Will wait and see.  It has the potential to be either really, really awesome or really, really ****ty.

Quote
Every item is a 3D object than can be viewed and examined.

Minor yay.
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: Zacam on January 15, 2011, 02:32:20 am
I didn't play Fallout 3 for more than a couple hours before quitting in disgust, so I know what you're saying.

That said, New Vegas was by the original Fallout developers and I'm tempted to give it a run.

Uhh... The Hell? Obsidian Entertainment didn't make Fallout, Black Isle did. And yes, SOME members of Black Isle (after the failing of Troika Games and being laid off by Interplay) did found Obsidian, they should not be confused with being one and the same.

(I can't even believe I'm posting here either, but that's neither here nor there) I look forward to a lot of Bethesda products, including this one. I won't hold my breath that it will be great, because I know it won't. I'm still waiting for them to release something that doesn't end up getting fixed by the community within it's first 72 hours of shelf life. And when _that_ happens, I want to say I was there for it.
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: General Battuta on January 15, 2011, 11:22:35 am
Obsidian is pretty commonly agreed to have inherited all the great writing from Black Isle. I know this because I read aaaall about it on somethingawful!
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: Topgun on January 25, 2011, 05:02:22 pm
http://www.gamespot.com/news/6286630.html?om_act=convert&om_clk=morenews&tag=morenews%3Btitle%3B6

Skyrim to include dev kit
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: Topgun on January 26, 2011, 12:18:38 pm
New art direction

http://www.gameinformer.com/b/news/archive/2011/01/26/the-art-of-skyrim.aspx
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: Grizzly on January 26, 2011, 01:14:37 pm
This actually seems genuinely exciting, a big depart from Oblivion's... ehrm... non-descreptive design principle.
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: Flipside on January 26, 2011, 02:42:43 pm
I'm quite interested in it, but it's still 10 months away, I seem to recall that 10 months before Fable 2 & 3 came out there was all this talk about stuff you could do which never made it into the final mix, so I'll wait and see what the difference is between what is promised and what is supplied :)
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: Topgun on January 26, 2011, 02:52:37 pm
I'm quite interested in it, but it's still 10 months away, I seem to recall that 10 months before Fable 2 & 3 came out there was all this talk about stuff you could do which never made it into the final mix, so I'll wait and see what the difference is between what is promised and what is supplied :)
except the fable devs are known for that, bethseda isn't.
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: Flipside on January 26, 2011, 03:30:31 pm
I seem to recall a great deal of the AI was dumbed down for Oblivion? Maybe I'm wrong, I can't say I followed the development of Oblivion all that closely, but I do seem to recall an awful lot of promises made about the AI which weren't really realised at release.
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: NGTM-1R on January 26, 2011, 04:02:15 pm
At least some of it had to be done deliberately, otherwise NPCs started stealing everything that wasn't nailed down and otherwise behaving like massive dicks/PCs.
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: Flipside on January 26, 2011, 04:06:46 pm
Heh :)

I suppose that as long as they can instill the idea that 'Swords are sharp, don't run in front of them when they are being swung around" into the AI, that in itself would be a Godsend ;)
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: Nemesis6 on January 26, 2011, 04:34:00 pm
(http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Y9KyBdPeKHg/0.jpg)


Quote
We primarily look at how we can improve facial expressions and animations, graphics-wise,


(http://media.noob.us/thumbs/worstlinereadingever.jpg)


Quote
and we want to make sure that the graphics of the PC, Xbox 360, and PS3 are alike.


(http://loyalkng.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/ohman2.jpg)
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: General Battuta on January 26, 2011, 04:38:17 pm
uh nemesis scroll up a bit
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: Nemesis6 on January 26, 2011, 04:44:43 pm
Damn it, I fail!  :doubt:
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: General Battuta on January 26, 2011, 04:47:29 pm
There was a link from there to an interview with their designer guy (Ron Howard?) that made him sound like not a total ass, maybe a pretty cool dude. WHO KNOWS

However everything that got me excited about Oblivion turned out to be a dirty lie so I will remain unenthused until at least 6 months after release.
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: Turambar on January 26, 2011, 05:15:42 pm
http://www.gamespot.com/news/6286630.html?om_act=convert&om_clk=morenews&tag=morenews%3Btitle%3B6

Skyrim to include dev kit

Hooray!  If Shogun 2 has one, I'll have **** to do every day after work for the next year :-D

Damn, it won't.  Oh well, looks like Medieval 2 will stay on the hard drive. 
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: BloodEagle on January 26, 2011, 05:41:46 pm
I would like to remind everyone about all the bull**** they promised for Oblivion.  I would also like to remind everyone about Oblivion.

Maybe they aren't lying to your faces this time.  I won't hold my breath, though.
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: Turambar on January 26, 2011, 05:47:56 pm
I would like to remind everyone about all the bull**** they promised for Oblivion.  I would also like to remind everyone about Oblivion.

Maybe they aren't lying to your faces this time.  I won't hold my breath, though.

Even if they are, mod tools mean we can fix it.
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: Nemesis6 on January 26, 2011, 06:07:55 pm
And that was/still is a major component of the Morrowind/Oblivion games -- The modding community. It really is incredible what they have produced and continue to produce, so long after the game was released.
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: BloodEagle on January 26, 2011, 06:13:09 pm
I guess we can only hope. :/

And that was/still is a major component of the Morrowind/Oblivion games -- The modding community. It really is incredible what they have produced and continue to produce, so long after the game was released.

I remember that there was this really nice horror mod that broke right at the end (it was supposed to change part of the stock world, but it raised a conflict error and killed those changes).  I think it was still in production the last time I checked.
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: Ghostavo on January 27, 2011, 07:43:54 pm
The Elder Scrolls' main theme (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Wj1I_lFUXo) used for Skyrim at 2:45-3:10 sounds awesome.
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: iamzack on January 27, 2011, 08:48:24 pm
I hope the "sexy" mod to useful and nice mod ratio is a bit better this time around, but... :[
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: Ravenholme on January 27, 2011, 09:50:16 pm
I hope the "sexy" mod to useful and nice mod ratio is a bit better this time around, but... :[

Unfortunately (and I can say this somewhat authoritavely, as I've been actively involved in the TES modding community since Morrowind, and assisted in a fair few mods, released a couple, etc. Mostly for Morrowind, but one or two for Oblivion), the TES community attracts people for whom fantasy does not mean Sword and Sorcery escapism, but the substance of their sexual perversions (Often, anyway. Tentacle raep mod for Oblivion, anyone?) given digital flesh.
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: NGTM-1R on January 27, 2011, 10:59:27 pm
Unfortunately (and I can say this somewhat authoritavely, as I've been actively involved in the TES modding community since Morrowind, and assisted in a fair few mods, released a couple, etc. Mostly for Morrowind, but one or two for Oblivion), the TES community attracts people for whom fantasy does not mean Sword and Sorcery escapism, but the substance of their sexual perversions (Often, anyway. Tentacle raep mod for Oblivion, anyone?) given digital flesh.

You've not read much actual fantasy of the sword and sorcery variety of recent publication apparently, so I'll warn you straight up: that's getting frighteningly normal for the genre.
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: Ravenholme on January 27, 2011, 11:00:55 pm
Unfortunately (and I can say this somewhat authoritavely, as I've been actively involved in the TES modding community since Morrowind, and assisted in a fair few mods, released a couple, etc. Mostly for Morrowind, but one or two for Oblivion), the TES community attracts people for whom fantasy does not mean Sword and Sorcery escapism, but the substance of their sexual perversions (Often, anyway. Tentacle raep mod for Oblivion, anyone?) given digital flesh.

You've not read much actual fantasy of the sword and sorcery variety of recent publication apparently, so I'll warn you straight up: that's getting frighteningly normal for the genre.

No, I read true fantasy of the sword and sorcery variant. Let's put it this way, my favourite fantasy author is Glen Cook, who manages to keep his work remarkably sex free *shrugs*

I'm well aware that it's a common fixture of most fantasy, but I'm afraid the TES community takes it to extremes.
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: iamzack on January 27, 2011, 11:01:28 pm
too much horse balls and cat vaginae and naked girls with blank, unfeeling stares...
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: Ravenholme on January 27, 2011, 11:05:22 pm
too much horse balls and cat vaginae and naked girls with blank, unfeeling stares...

Oh the jokes I could make with this statement, but I shall refrain...
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: Flipside on January 28, 2011, 12:49:58 am
Unfortunately (and I can say this somewhat authoritavely, as I've been actively involved in the TES modding community since Morrowind, and assisted in a fair few mods, released a couple, etc. Mostly for Morrowind, but one or two for Oblivion), the TES community attracts people for whom fantasy does not mean Sword and Sorcery escapism, but the substance of their sexual perversions (Often, anyway. Tentacle raep mod for Oblivion, anyone?) given digital flesh.

You've not read much actual fantasy of the sword and sorcery variety of recent publication apparently, so I'll warn you straight up: that's getting frighteningly normal for the genre.

That's just plain.... depressing, but what's possibly worse is that it isn't all that surprising for some reason :(
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: Mongoose on January 28, 2011, 02:04:02 am
I knew I was playing it safe by just sticking to Lord of the Rings. :p
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: BlueFlames on January 28, 2011, 04:42:56 am
I would like to remind everyone about all the bull**** they promised for Oblivion.  I would also like to remind everyone about Oblivion.

Maybe they aren't lying to your faces this time.  I won't hold my breath, though.

Even if they are, mod tools mean we can fix it.

Here's a thought:  Why should I spend my money on a game that needs to be fixed, when I can spend my money on a game that will be good out-of-the-box?

For me, Bethesda has thoroughly squandered the goodwill they had built up with Morrowind.  Oblivion was a pretty world with no substance and questionable gameplay mechanics.  Fallout 3 was a slap in the face to fans of the original game, right from the off.  Both were sloppy, and neither was finished, upon release.  I'm no longer willing to hand Bethesda my money for a game that I'm going to have to bend over backwards modding to make it feel like a finished, polished product.

If they want to invest the effort in making a good game, I'll give their game due consideration.  If they want to release a lousy game, in the hopes that someone else will make it better, then I'll just go buy a better game, made by someone else.  Seems fair to me.
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: Grizzly on January 28, 2011, 06:02:14 am
Quote
Here's a thought:  Why should I spend my money on a game that needs to be fixed, when I can spend my money on a game that will be good out-of-the-box?

This.
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: Turambar on January 28, 2011, 07:08:47 am
Quote
Here's a thought:  Why should I spend my money on a game that needs to be fixed, when I can spend my money on a game that will be good out-of-the-box?

This.


The game is a console port, they need to reduce complexity so 13 year old xbox live ****-eaters can actually play the game.  Through modding, that complexity can be restored for us thinking PC players.
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: iamzack on January 28, 2011, 11:34:14 am
Quote
Here's a thought:  Why should I spend my money on a game that needs to be fixed, when I can spend my money on a game that will be good out-of-the-box?

This.

I actually kind of prefer things this way. It's similar to the Sims, where the graphics and game mechanics and everything are pretty simple (I think so that people can play on low-end computers), but you get this basic platform. And then through mods, you get to build your own totally custom game. Besides that, you can have your game so modded it becomes almost another game entirely, and if you want to, you can play through and then download different mods and play through again, and it's all free.

You can't make a game to suit everyone's tastes, and if there is a community willing to create and share mods, why not make a basic game that will appeal to a wider audience in the first place?

The way I see it, it pays much more to make a relatively simple game, but make sure it's highly moddable and release mod tools to get the community started than it would to make a highly complex game that is amazing (by the standards of one group) right off the shelf. PLUS, we get the benefit of buying one game that we can play on more affordable systems AND we can change anything and everything about it pretty easily. It seems like we'd be more limited in what we could do with highly complex and developed games, but iunno.

Of course, that's all for PC gamers. Console gamers just have to make a trade-off between the simplicity of an all-in-one game system and less game moddability, I guess.
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: Scotty on January 28, 2011, 01:22:49 pm
Quote
Here's a thought:  Why should I spend my money on a game that needs to be fixed, when I can spend my money on a game that will be good out-of-the-box?

This.


The game is a console port, they need to reduce complexity so 13 year old xbox live ****-eaters can actually play the game.  Through modding, that complexity can be restored for us thinking PC players.

Because there are by definition no 13 year old PC gaming ****-eaters.  Must be that the ones I know don't actually exist.

Seriously, cut it with the condescending bull**** towards consoles.  It's old.
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: Zacam on January 28, 2011, 11:40:23 pm
You can't make a game to suit everyone's tastes, and if there is a community willing to create and share mods, why not make a basic game that will appeal to a wider audience in the first place?

The way I see it, it pays much more to make a relatively simple game, but make sure it's highly moddable and release mod tools to get the community started than it would to make a highly complex game that is amazing (by the standards of one group) right off the shelf. PLUS, we get the benefit of buying one game that we can play on more affordable systems AND we can change anything and everything about it pretty easily. It seems like we'd be more limited in what we could do with highly complex and developed games, but iunno.

I can agree with pretty much everything here. But the biggest difference (aside from Bethesda games not being The Sims) is the delivery of ANY formative content in the main release to begin with. And the fact that (other than Nude Mods) the FIRST actual gameplay mods for Fallout 3 and New Vegas were to fix/patch bugs that shouldn't have been present in a commercial release in the first place.

Yes, they DO deliver in regards to giving us the tools to make more out of their universe than what they originally give us. But that is severely lessened and cheapened by the fact when we have to use those tools to instead correct for the content and gameworld that should have already have been corrected and more polished than it was delivered as, and it should be content more closely resembling what we were actually promised to get.

And it's not even a case of the adjustments to handle lower end vs high end pc's either. When you have completely broken Quest Script Triggers or un-meetable conditions or conditions that expect and A->B->C approach in a gameworld where you can hit X->C->A->Z (but never "B") and end up with a broken mess, that is simply irresponsible.

I'd have rather seen Fallout 3 _and_ New Vegas delayed by 6 more months to give them both more polish and testing and corrections. They could have ironed out DLC addons interaction for FO3 a lot better and we wouldn't have had such a dismally embarrassing lack of patch releasing for New Vegas as we've seen delivered so far.

The tools provided shouldn't also have to serve as the swiss-army solution to correcting a lazy or rush development process driven by the bottom line dollar of players being willing to have to put up with it.

To be more on Topic, I hold _some_ hope that _maybe_ they get it right with Skyrim. But they've been on a decline since the release of Morrowind (it started showing in the GotY edition, honestly) and I won't hold my breath on it. If it can survive it's first month on the shelves without needing a community movement to list and correct bugs (because I know it's entirely too much to ask for it to be completely bug free) and we can see actual innovative content being delivered for it off the bat, then I'll believe in them starting to make steps in the right direction. (And then I'll have to wonder if they will then finally concentrate on actually fixing the remaining issues with the games they already have out instead of just orphaning their latest cash-cow on to store shelves so that they can work on the next one).
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: iamzack on January 29, 2011, 12:23:51 pm
You can't make a game to suit everyone's tastes, and if there is a community willing to create and share mods, why not make a basic game that will appeal to a wider audience in the first place?

The way I see it, it pays much more to make a relatively simple game, but make sure it's highly moddable and release mod tools to get the community started than it would to make a highly complex game that is amazing (by the standards of one group) right off the shelf. PLUS, we get the benefit of buying one game that we can play on more affordable systems AND we can change anything and everything about it pretty easily. It seems like we'd be more limited in what we could do with highly complex and developed games, but iunno.

I can agree with pretty much everything here. But the biggest difference (aside from Bethesda games not being The Sims) is the delivery of ANY formative content in the main release to begin with. And the fact that (other than Nude Mods) the FIRST actual gameplay mods for Fallout 3 and New Vegas were to fix/patch bugs that shouldn't have been present in a commercial release in the first place.

Yes, they DO deliver in regards to giving us the tools to make more out of their universe than what they originally give us. But that is severely lessened and cheapened by the fact when we have to use those tools to instead correct for the content and gameworld that should have already have been corrected and more polished than it was delivered as, and it should be content more closely resembling what we were actually promised to get.

And it's not even a case of the adjustments to handle lower end vs high end pc's either. When you have completely broken Quest Script Triggers or un-meetable conditions or conditions that expect and A->B->C approach in a gameworld where you can hit X->C->A->Z (but never "B") and end up with a broken mess, that is simply irresponsible.

I'd have rather seen Fallout 3 _and_ New Vegas delayed by 6 more months to give them both more polish and testing and corrections. They could have ironed out DLC addons interaction for FO3 a lot better and we wouldn't have had such a dismally embarrassing lack of patch releasing for New Vegas as we've seen delivered so far.

The tools provided shouldn't also have to serve as the swiss-army solution to correcting a lazy or rush development process driven by the bottom line dollar of players being willing to have to put up with it.

To be more on Topic, I hold _some_ hope that _maybe_ they get it right with Skyrim. But they've been on a decline since the release of Morrowind (it started showing in the GotY edition, honestly) and I won't hold my breath on it. If it can survive it's first month on the shelves without needing a community movement to list and correct bugs (because I know it's entirely too much to ask for it to be completely bug free) and we can see actual innovative content being delivered for it off the bat, then I'll believe in them starting to make steps in the right direction. (And then I'll have to wonder if they will then finally concentrate on actually fixing the remaining issues with the games they already have out instead of just orphaning their latest cash-cow on to store shelves so that they can work on the next one).


Yeah, I suppose. The Sims 3 was a horrible broken mess as well, almost unplayable without mods. Never bothered me much, though, since mods are free and not terribly difficult to install. On principle it's kind of douchey to sell broken games, but it just doesn't really affect me.
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: Grizzly on January 30, 2011, 05:07:49 am
It does for me. I want minimal hassle for my first playtrough. Carefree enjoyment. When you go about modding an hopelessly broken game you end up with more time modding then actually playing, and when playing finding out it has just become even more unstable...
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: iamzack on January 30, 2011, 11:15:35 am
I actually enjoy modding, though. I love looking through all the neat stuff even if I don't plan on putting it into my game. It's like part of the "new game" process for me! :D
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: Mongoose on January 30, 2011, 12:36:32 pm
If I can't play through a game out-of-the-box and expect a reasonably fun experience, I'm not going to buy it.  I'm a customer, not a developer. :p
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: Grizzly on January 31, 2011, 12:24:01 am
I actually enjoy modding, though. I love looking through all the neat stuff even if I don't plan on putting it into my game. It's like part of the "new game" process for me! :D

Me too actually, but I always get a bitter aftertaste because I simply mod to much and end up with a lot of time and effort wasted :(. And many mods can't fix some of the game's core flaws in immersion and story, unless you run a total conversion trough it...

Anyone here tried Nehrim, at fate's edge?
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: Ransom on January 31, 2011, 01:32:05 am
did somebody say nehrim
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: Grizzly on January 31, 2011, 10:15:45 am
Nehrim.

Yes, I said that.
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: Flipside on January 31, 2011, 11:06:00 am
I quite liked the Archeologists Guild Mod in Oblvion, that was a pretty good add-on.
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: BloodEagle on January 31, 2011, 12:59:53 pm
Link, please.  :eek:
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: Flipside on January 31, 2011, 01:23:35 pm
http://www.lostspires.com/

There you go :)
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: BloodEagle on January 31, 2011, 02:36:17 pm
Working bear-trap? .... AWESOME!  :yes:
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: Ransom on February 01, 2011, 11:48:25 am
Nehrim.

Yes, I said that.

I prepared a reply for you, but then I thought screw it I've been meaning to do a write-up on this for ages I'll just make a thread

http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=74310.0

in summary i did try it yes i rather liked it
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: starbug on February 04, 2011, 03:28:43 pm
Has anyone seen this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c9eGtyqz4gY&feature=player_embedded

Pretty funny, Who here hasn't acted like that at the sight of a trailer for a game or game series we love to play?
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: BloodEagle on February 04, 2011, 05:12:07 pm
/me raises his hand.

That was mildly amusing, however.
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: iamzack on February 04, 2011, 05:30:46 pm
that's hot
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: BloodEagle on February 04, 2011, 06:15:07 pm
that's hot

No! Bad iamzack! Bad!
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: Topgun on February 11, 2011, 09:36:38 pm
Lots of screenies!
http://pc.ign.com/articles/114/1149286p1.html
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: Mefustae on February 12, 2011, 03:02:46 am
Holy **** that's pretty. Seriously, that's outstanding.

(http://pcmedia.ign.com/pc/image/article/114/1149185/elder-scrolls-v-skyrim-20110211094601315.jpg)
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: Ransom on February 12, 2011, 03:51:06 am
Pretty. It's the animation I'm worried about, though.
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: General Battuta on February 12, 2011, 08:12:57 am
Pretty. It's the animation I'm worried about, though.

One of my favorite unintentional-comedy things in ol' Gamebryo was the panic-zoom to start conversations.

Particularly, if you nudged someone who was sleeping, they would chase you down and panic-zoom into conversation mode, then just deliver one of their normal ambient lines. For instance, in Fallout New Vegas:

I nudge some guard, run downstairs and start doing something else entirely. He wakes up, chases me down, captures me with his magnetic conversation-starting abilities, STARES at me and says:

"I hear they're sending some rangers up from the south."

walks off
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: Ransom on February 12, 2011, 09:02:11 am
haha god damn it

I don't even know what to make of that engine. Other developers have done good things with it.
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: NGTM-1R on February 12, 2011, 12:56:49 pm
Holy **** that's pretty. Seriously, that's outstanding.

(http://pcmedia.ign.com/pc/image/article/114/1149185/elder-scrolls-v-skyrim-20110211094601315.jpg)

This is the first decent-looking forest I have ever seen in a videogame.
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: General Battuta on February 12, 2011, 01:01:35 pm
May I remind the court that Oblivion also looked gorgeous before release
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: Zacam on February 12, 2011, 02:23:20 pm
May I remind the court that Oblivion also looked gorgeous before release
/me gives a +1 for Epic Justice
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: NGTM-1R on February 12, 2011, 03:22:27 pm
May I remind the court that Oblivion also looked gorgeous before release

Yes.

But the forests looked **** as ever. :P
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: iamzack on February 12, 2011, 04:37:03 pm
Here's hoping Skyrim won't be more graphics intensive than Oblivion was with Better Cities and Unique Landscapes and such installed.. :\
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: PsychoLandlord on February 12, 2011, 07:12:26 pm
IIRC Bethesda said they were going to scale down the playing area and pack it with more crap and prettier graphics, in order to keep the game relatively run-able on older machines. Then again, this info came out of a Game Informer, so take that with a grain of salt.
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: Ransom on February 12, 2011, 07:17:02 pm
I don't think the overall size of the world relates much to performance. The world's streamed in as you roam it.
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: PsychoLandlord on February 12, 2011, 09:25:57 pm
Hence Why I said be wary of that info. GI tends to throw out random interpretations of things developers say during interviews and they often don't make a lot of sense.
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: Nemesis6 on February 13, 2011, 05:28:43 pm
Yeah the whole free-roaming thing that Oblivion had going was a double-edged sword, because not all areas were equally impressive. Still, I found the wilderness more appealing than the roads, cities, and so on.
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: Flipside on February 14, 2011, 03:50:57 am
I sense a degree of Bullshot with that picture, which concerns me.

I suspect Skyrim will be a physically smaller realm, but with more in it, so decreasing the size won't decrease the amount of content , it just means you won't have to run as far between items I would guess ;)
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: Ransom on February 14, 2011, 04:42:16 am
I sense a degree of Bullshot with that picture, which concerns me.

There isn't... really anything I can see there that's particularly technically impressive. There's visible polygons everywhere and the texture resolution doesn't seem that great. It's just nice artistry.
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: Flipside on February 14, 2011, 04:58:45 am
That's just it, it looks more like a colour-adjusted picture from Oblivion itself, the character is terribly low-poly, but the grass/vegetation looks touched up to me. Maybe with the advances in procedural content it is from ingame, but it just sets a few alarm bells ringing for me.
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: Ransom on February 14, 2011, 05:25:45 am
How do you mean? The vegetation just looks like grass textures bunched together on top of flat terrain, like what they did in Oblivion. It's the art and use of colour that makes this look nice more than anything else.

man, defending bethesda is making me feel funny
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: Flipside on February 14, 2011, 10:22:12 am
One good example is the trunks of the trees, there are no two identical models in that picture that I can see, and whilst that's not impossible, it's still something rare to see. As I said before, it's nothing I can definitely place my finger on and say 'This is why', but it doesn't look 'right' in some way, I can't put it any clearer than that.
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: Topgun on February 14, 2011, 10:36:31 am
That's just it, it looks more like a colour-adjusted picture from Oblivion itself, the character is terribly low-poly, but the grass/vegetation looks touched up to me. Maybe with the advances in procedural content it is from ingame, but it just sets a few alarm bells ringing for me.

supposedly, all screenshots are from the xbox360 version of the game. The PC version will probably look better.
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: General Battuta on February 14, 2011, 10:50:44 am
One good example is the trunks of the trees, there are no two identical models in that picture that I can see, and whilst that's not impossible, it's still something rare to see. As I said before, it's nothing I can definitely place my finger on and say 'This is why', but it doesn't look 'right' in some way, I can't put it any clearer than that.

Trees can be procedurally generated, there's even software to do it.
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: Flipside on February 14, 2011, 11:16:14 am
Yes, which was why I said in my initial post that I suppose it's possible with procedural generation, but I'll still wait and see :p
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: BloodEagle on February 14, 2011, 12:59:31 pm
People need to start using Dwarf Fortress to generate 3D game worlds.
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: iamzack on February 14, 2011, 02:05:23 pm
i see two pairs of trees that look almost the same
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: Mefustae on February 22, 2011, 06:35:12 am
Has someone posted this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c9eGtyqz4gY

If not, someone really should have. Pretty much expresses the collective comments of everyone in the thread.

And it has more views than the announcement trailer.
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: StarSlayer on February 24, 2011, 09:37:41 am
Gameplay Trailer (http://www.ign.com/videos/2011/02/24/skyrim-gameplay-trailer)
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: PsychoLandlord on February 24, 2011, 10:59:32 am
The combat better be as dynamic as that trailer implied, or I'm gonna be pissed.
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: Sushi on February 24, 2011, 01:33:13 pm
I'm just waiting for a game that has the combat depth of Mount&Blade or Jedi Knight 2-3 in a nice open-world RPG setting. We'll see.
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: T-LoW on February 24, 2011, 03:28:14 pm
Jedi Knight 2-3

Played the hell outa these two (also their MP-parts).
Tried TFU once and quit after half an hour because the combat system sucked donkey balls compared to the 6 year older Jedi Academy :nono:

But never liked Oblivions combat system either. Actually it was one of the worst parts of the whole game (despite the horrible, horrible menus).
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: Topgun on March 20, 2011, 08:45:16 pm
(http://download2.zenimax.com/akqacms/files/tes/screenshots/CompositeMountain_wLegal.jpg)


yes thats a screenshot
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: Ransom on March 20, 2011, 09:54:06 pm
haha yeah okay
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: Topgun on March 20, 2011, 10:11:39 pm
haha yeah okay
no really it is. its a composite of two screens from an xbox360.  Don't know if it has been doctored or not though.

In fact, if you zoom in on the clouds you can tell that they are just sprites, if this was done in photoshop or something it would look a lot better. The biggest tell is the low-res shadows.
The only reason it looks so good is the really good hdr shading.
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: Locutus of Borg on March 21, 2011, 12:05:48 am
Hopefully it won't rain all the friggin time like it did in Oblivion
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: Zacam on March 21, 2011, 01:28:42 am

If it does, I'm sure there will be a Mod for that.
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: rscaper1070 on March 21, 2011, 02:31:10 am
At least make the NPCs smart enough to get out of the rain. Bugs the hell out of me seeing the Market District full of people talking about mudcrabs while it's pouring rain.
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: zookeeper on March 21, 2011, 06:09:08 am
Quote
Gameplay Trailer (http://www.ign.com/videos/2011/02/24/skyrim-gameplay-trailer)

Gameplay trailer? Yeah, right. I'll bet my right leg that the gameplay isn't going to look anything like that. :nono:
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: Nemesis6 on March 21, 2011, 03:59:46 pm
Hopefully it won't rain all the friggin time like it did in Oblivion

Hey! Rain is cosy.
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: NGTM-1R on March 21, 2011, 04:01:31 pm
Hopefully it won't rain all the friggin time like it did in Oblivion

The rain effects in Elder Scrolls are the best part of the game. I used to use Morrowind's to help me sleep.
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: Ransom on March 21, 2011, 11:24:27 pm
Rain always bothered me in Elder Scrolls because if you looked down while moving you could tell it was just a static effect centred on the player.
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: Grizzly on March 22, 2011, 12:48:38 pm
When I saw how the Witcher handled rain, the Elder Scrolls AI just started to look... fake...
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: Nemesis6 on March 22, 2011, 02:02:50 pm
Rain always bothered me in Elder Scrolls because if you looked down while moving you could tell it was just a static effect centred on the player.

Someone actually made a mod for Oblivion that makes not only the player wet, but all other NPCs, when it rains and after the player/an npc has been swimming.
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: Topgun on March 27, 2011, 11:14:35 pm
Quote
Gameplay Trailer (http://www.ign.com/videos/2011/02/24/skyrim-gameplay-trailer)

Gameplay trailer? Yeah, right. I'll bet my right leg that the gameplay isn't going to look anything like that. :nono:

its been confirmed that everything in the trailer is in game and that the dragon fight was not scripted. I frankly don't understand how thats hard to believe.
https://twitter.com/nickbreckon/status/40798586128039936
https://twitter.com/DCDeacon/status/40799803394756608
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: rscaper1070 on March 27, 2011, 11:34:40 pm
I think someone owes somebody a right leg. :lol:
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: zookeeper on March 28, 2011, 02:59:14 am
Quote
Gameplay Trailer (http://www.ign.com/videos/2011/02/24/skyrim-gameplay-trailer)

Gameplay trailer? Yeah, right. I'll bet my right leg that the gameplay isn't going to look anything like that. :nono:

its been confirmed that everything in the trailer is in game and that the dragon fight was not scripted. I frankly don't understand how thats hard to believe.
https://twitter.com/nickbreckon/status/40798586128039936
https://twitter.com/DCDeacon/status/40799803394756608

I don't believe it: the camera is all over the place (in the dragon fight, you see your guy from third person front and behind with the camera in a different angle in every shot) and there's no interface of any kind visible. That can't be what the gameplay looks like unless that fight is just a fancy-prancy in-game cutscene with quicktime events for controls; you couldn't even control your guy properly otherwise.

It's the same difference as in something like this:

AC2 "Gameplay trailer" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a12e3iKzqlw) (I don't know if that's official or not, but at least it could easily be)
AC2 Actual gameplay (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnQZHBodpwk)

The real gameplay we see in the latter video doesn't really look anything like the "gameplay trailer".
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: Topgun on March 28, 2011, 03:04:33 pm
So you are complaining about a cinematographic camera?
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: General Battuta on March 28, 2011, 03:08:00 pm
So you are complaining about a cinematographic camera?

after the publicity for oblivion, i'm going to treat everything we learn about skyrim as a lie
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: Topgun on March 28, 2011, 03:09:17 pm
So you are complaining about a cinematographic camera?

after the publicity for oblivion, i'm going to treat everything we learn about skyrim as a lie

fair enough :lol:

In Oblivion, the devs made the mistake of talking about the things they tried to implement before they actually managed to get it right.
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: Nemesis6 on March 28, 2011, 03:39:35 pm
I remember something about "Radiant AI" in Oblivion. "Radiant" is not the word I would use to describe the AI in Oblivion, though.
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: zookeeper on March 28, 2011, 03:50:47 pm
So you are complaining about a cinematographic camera?

I wasn't complaining.
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: Topgun on March 28, 2011, 03:52:40 pm
I remember something about "Radiant AI" in Oblivion. "Radiant" is not the word I would use to describe the AI in Oblivion, though.

Yeah, its the thing that schedules npc's actions and decides if they like you or other npcs or not. It was originally a lot more but they had to scrap a huge bit of it because they just couldn't get it to work. According to Todd Howard, its back and they fixed the problems they had before.
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: Topgun on March 30, 2011, 08:33:42 pm
OK, Im really disappointed with the stuff I am hearing now. looks like we will still have fast travel like oblivion and not morrowind's system. The world is STILL leveled to the player, but not as much as oblivion. And todd howard supposedly said in a magazine interview that they are having trouble mixing spells and that if they can't get it to work it won't be in the game. I have found confirmation to everything except that last part which is what they are saying on the forums but I haven't seen a link.

Looks like skyrim will still need a mod like OOO to be great.

EDIT:
While oblivion's fast travel will still be available for places you have already visited, we will have the option to use paid travel services, so it isn't too bad as long as they don't make the game world expecting everyone to use fast travel
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: MP-Ryan on April 05, 2011, 03:05:32 pm
Morrowind's system was painful for anyone who likes to spend less than 300 hours on an RPG.  Good grief.

Oblivion's is fine.  Let people choose not to use it if they prefer walking.  Or implement both.  But returning to the endless monotony of Morrowind's fast travel (one of very few things I disliked about it) is a step backward.
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: Zacam on April 05, 2011, 03:08:59 pm

Well, just like with Morrowind, don't like the fast travel? Wait a while, somebody will mod something. :D
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: Topgun on April 05, 2011, 03:31:35 pm
Morrowind's system was painful for anyone who likes to spend less than 300 hours on an RPG.  Good grief.

Oblivion's is fine.  Let people choose not to use it if they prefer walking.  Or implement both.  But returning to the endless monotony of Morrowind's fast travel (one of very few things I disliked about it) is a step backward.
I strongly, strongly disagree. Oblivion's world was boring and not well though out. I blame fast travel. Why spend so much time developing the land scape when people can just skip it?
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: Scotty on April 05, 2011, 04:42:53 pm
Because some people don't, and you shouldn't punish the people who do want to skip it by making it take so damn long too. :P

But maybe that's just because I walk/run/swim EVERYWHERE.
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: General Battuta on April 05, 2011, 04:50:12 pm
I'm still most excited about the MEN in the trailer
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: MP-Ryan on April 18, 2011, 02:39:02 pm
**** me sideways, if the game lives up to this article it's going to be amazing:  http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2011/04/18/20-best-things-about-skyrim/

ME3 and Skyrim in the same holiday season.... ****, I'd better clear my backlog fast.
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: Topgun on April 18, 2011, 03:21:09 pm
OH MY GOD
(http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/images/11/apr/skyrim/sky6big.jpg)

For the first time ever I want to play as a kajiht, and I freaking hate kajiht.
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: Grizzly on April 18, 2011, 03:21:17 pm
I also heard that oblivion was going to be amazing/ is amazing

I really did not like it.
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: General Battuta on April 18, 2011, 03:24:10 pm
khajit no like you

skuuuuuuumaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: Topgun on April 18, 2011, 03:30:50 pm
http://www.giantbomb.com/news/skyrim-is-looking-like-the-elder-scrolls-evolved/3048/

tons of info

I also heard that oblivion was going to be amazing/ is amazing

I really did not like it.

level scaling killed oblivion for me. I could deal with all the other little screw-ups, level scaling just totally annoyed the heck out of me.
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: BlueFlames on April 18, 2011, 03:33:51 pm
I also heard that oblivion was going to be amazing/ is amazing

First of all, this, a thousand times over.  Oblivion and Fallout 3 got hyped as being the greatest thing since fermented hops, and when they came out, they were garbage.  All the hype was either focused on incredibly minute aspects of the game (tree-rendering!) or turned out to be outright lies (Radiant-AI totally is ready already, so it totally won't be stripped down to the point of being laughably stupid!).

That said, let me inject some cynicism into the RPS hype-piece for Skyrim:

Quote from: Notepad
Quote
1. Killing a dragon involves knocking the enormous thing out of the sky, with a combination of arrows, magic and whatever else you can think of.

Either one specific spell is going to instantly knock the flying lizard down, or any spell is going to do the job.  Either way, once you figure it out, it will happen so frequently as to become a boring routine.  Archers and melee warriors, incidentally, will be screwed.

Quote
2. A new questing system means randomly-generated stories.

There will be a small pool of rooms and characters used to populate a world that will wind up feeling exactly like the copypasta from Oblivion, despite being more technically complicated and demanding.  That is a good way to introduce more bugs to the game, though.  Minecraft-style chunk errors would seem fitting.

Quote
3. While the game’s pretty much the same size of Oblivion in terms of land mass, the inclusion of huge mountains – all of which you can climb to the top of, as well as often venturing within – means Skyrim has significantly more world to explore than its predecessor.

In other words, the world is the same size as Oblivion's, and a few strategic side-steps and jumps in the mountains will lead to explorers accidentally bypassing critical plot-related quests.  (Alternatively, there will be ****ing insipid invisible walls everywhere.)

Quote
4. The menus are pure sex, basically.

The menu code will not be optimised for the retail release, making them choppier than actual gameplay.  The issue will never be officially patched, as Bethesda lets MOD'ers act as their eternal crutch.

Quote
5. This time around [dungeons] have been built by a new raft of level designers, which promise a more engaging flow and diversity to each. There are over 120 dungeons in the game.

Except that like the "hundreds of endings" available in Fallout 3, these "120 dungeons" are actually 120 small rooms/corridors that get grouped together into a dungeon, such that you've only got enough content to see, at most, ten unique dungeons.

Quote
6. For a dragon, combat is debate.

Did you not just say that you were supposed to be shooting them out of the sky?  Did someone get stoned and mix up the combat and dialogue systems?

Quote
7. The world is so much more alive. You’ll see...

...none of this, because when the release date looms, the Skyrim AI will get slashed harder than Oblivion's.

Quote
8. Conversations with NPCs no longer involves an awkward zoom-in to their strange faces, a fixed perspective and an ugly text box. Now, it’s clean, sharp text floating directly onto the screen, and you’re free to look around as you please.

And to actually accomplish anything with a conversation, you will still need to defer to that insipid conversation pie.  At least you won't have to look at Bethesda's ineptly modeled characters the whole time.

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9. The skill and attribute system has been rethought to make it more streamlined yet offer much more varied character builds. We’re down from 8 attributes and 21 skills to 3 attributes and 18 skills, which will probably cause gasps of horror in some camps, but actually the aim is to make character builds even more diverse while getting rid of redundant levelling.

We're going to make characters more diverse by removing mechanical means of diversifying characters!  Don't think too hard about it!

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10. The Giant Frostbite Spider, in motion, may well be one of the most frightening things I’ve ever seen.

...but the way you say it makes it sound like you're making this assertion, based on a still image.

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11. We won’t suffer the horrible voice repetition of Oblivion.

There will be half-a-dozen voice actors!  THAT'S HUGE (for a Bethesda production)!

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12. You can dual-wield weapons and spells.

Skyrim - Boldly going where Baldur's Gate II already went, eleven years ago.  Stay classy.

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13. Character creation only involves choosing what you look like and which of 10 races you are.

[See previous customization comment.]

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14. Modding is fully supported...

...because we've been so focused on marketing that we forgot to finish the game, soooo....  You wouldn't mind doing us a favor (again), right?

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15. The engine looks absolutely phenomenal in motion...

...except for all of the character animations, which make people walk around like plucked chickens.  We really got the swaying of the trees down pat, though!

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16. You get to fight magic zombie vikings.

You know what?  I'll give you that one.  Zombie vikings do sound awesome.

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17. There’s a real in-game economy.

There are two token quests that alter prices in an otherwise static economy.

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18. There will be a few out-there quests, like entering the painting in Oblivion. “It’s good to remind people it’s a world of magic and fantasy.”

Todd took a hit of LSD and wouldn't let us edit out his "contributions" from that day.

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19. The skills/perks system is presented as a vast, twinkling star field populated by stellar patterns in the shape of this world’s various gods.

LOOKATTHEKEYS!  *Jingle* *Jingle* *Jingle*  LOOKATTHEKEYS!

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20. All this, and we haven’t even been told about the guilds, the factions, crime, the major cities, the conversation system and so much more.

All this, and the crap that Bethesda can't bear the shame of showing!

All supposition, of course, but suffice to say, I'll be passing on Skyrim.  I've invested in enough bad Bethesda games that, even if Skyrim is good, I owe them one.
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: Topgun on April 18, 2011, 03:42:54 pm
You really hate bethesda
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: BlueFlames on April 18, 2011, 03:48:21 pm
You really hate bethesda

Just their crappy games.  ;)

[EDIT]

You know what?  On the subject of "innovations" that Bethesda got beaten to by absolute ages, Radiant-AI (as it was described, not as it was implemented) was basically the Black & White creature AI.  He would seek out food when hungry, find something to drop a deuce on some time after eating, and find a quiet spot to lie down when tired.  Beyond that, the B&W creature had motivations and biases that could be influenced by the player's training efforts.  Black & White was released March 25, 2001; Oblivion was released March 20, 2006, and Skyrim, which supposedly gets Radiant-AI right, is still pending.  Way to stay on the bleeding edge!
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: MP-Ryan on April 18, 2011, 07:49:44 pm
There's no pleasing some people.  I liked Morrowind, Oblivion, and Fallout 3 - all for different reasons.  Sure, there were some things I disliked in each game but in general I found the gameplay enjoyable - enough that I spent 100+ hours in each.  So I really can't complain.

If the previews are accurate, Skyrim is taking the better elements of those three, scrapping the worst elements, and trying some completely new ideas.  Maybe it'll be better than its predecessors (it's shaping that way), maybe it'll be slightly worse.  Either way, even if they do things as "badly" as Oblivion, it'll still be worth playing.  It's not like Bethesda is descending to the level of Capcom.

If you compare Oblivion/Morrowind/Fallout 3 to other western RPG/FPS-RPGs, they're in the company of Mass Effect, STALKER, Dragon Age, KOTOR, System Shock 2, and Deus Ex.  None of those are bad games.  There are some bugs in all of those, over-hyped features, and underwhelming gameplay elements.  Bethesda does some things extremely well (show me someone who does completely free-roaming RPG-oriented gameplay better, because I can't think of anyone), and other things less well, same as everyone else.  I'm really tired of all the RAH RAH BETHESDA SUCKS BECAUSE OF X RAH RAH.  It just sounds tired.
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: Sushi on April 18, 2011, 08:33:34 pm
I haven't played any of the Elder Scrolls games, but I have to admit, this one is looking pretty awesome.
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: BlueFlames on April 18, 2011, 10:18:38 pm
There's no pleasing some people.

So because I don't like the crap Bethesda has been putting out over the last few years, "There's no pleasing me?"  I have a whole shelf-full of games that I enjoy quite a great deal, including some from your list of western RPGs.  I'll even concede that Morrowind, despite a journal system that makes it all-too-easy to lose active quests, was pretty enjoyable.  Oblivion, by contrast, was a pretty world, inhabited by lifeless characters and a truly pathetic story, and Fallout 3 was about as far askew of the rest of the Fallout series as one could get, whilst abducting the name for an obvious cash-in.

Those two games were both marketed to death, with the tagline that, "We're going to get right everything we got wrong with the previous game(s)!"  Then, come release day, lo and behold, it'd turn out that they had been so focused on minutia that they entirely missed the big picture.  What's the big idea behind a role-playing game?  The player takes on the role of a character in a story.  When the characters are lifeless and the story is senseless, the rest of the game doesn't much matter.

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If the previews are accurate...

...and I hold that Bethesda has a worse habit of building up hype and failing to deliver than Peter Molyneux.  As Battuta said, it's best to consider previews of Bethesda's games as being naught but lies, until the game is released to demonstrate otherwise.

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If you compare Oblivion/Morrowind/Fallout 3 to other western RPG/FPS-RPGs, they're in the company of Mass Effect, STALKER, Dragon Age, KOTOR, System Shock 2, and Deus Ex.  None of those are bad games.

Those games may be in the same/a similar genre, but they're not in the same league.  Certainly, the more recent titles on your second list were more stable at launch, and each was more well supported by the developers throughout its life than Oblivion or Fallout 3.  Even Shadow of Chernobyl, which was pretty hideously buggy at release, is in a state now, where I can install, patch, and play, without having to work around game-breaking bugs.  In Fallout 3, by contrast, all I have to do is go free-roaming too far in one direction, and suddenly I've skipped about five major plot points, on the way to saving Liam Neeson*.  Every game on your second list managed a more appropriate number of voice actors than did Oblivion or Fallout 3, and in most cases (Deus Ex being the notable exception) those voice actors turned in a more convincing performance than their counterparts at Bethesda.  Coupled with better writing across the board, that whole second list was just better at making the player feel like a character in a living world.

* - ...and I just realized that you're saving Liam Neeson from having to play a Bethesda-developed video game, within a Bethesda-developed video game.  Unintentional irony?

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There are some bugs in all of those, over-hyped features, and underwhelming gameplay elements.  Bethesda does some things extremely well (show me someone who does completely free-roaming RPG-oriented gameplay better, because I can't think of anyone), and other things less well, same as everyone else.

Unfortunately, what I find Bethesda does really well is produce beautiful screenshots and bafflingly effective marketing.  Maybe their current team is better suited to other genres, but their most recent entries into the RPG genre have focused way too much on visuals and implementing gimmicks (which is exactly what the fully-voice-acted claim has been to-date) and not nearly enough on a coherent plot or plausible character development.

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I'm really tired of all the RAH RAH BETHESDA SUCKS BECAUSE OF X RAH RAH.  It just sounds tired.

It recurs every couple of years as the marketing effect from their previous release wears off.  That's usually right around the time people start reinstalling the game for another playthrough and realize that, when you have to spend hours downloading MODs to fix the broken bugs and balance the broken gameplay mechanics**, the game probably wasn't worth the price originally paid.  A little late, by that point, but it's a lesson learned.

** - Before you compare this to spending hours to download FreeSpace Open and the MediaVPs, remember that the retail game had several years of life in it, before the SCP and FSU teams got to sink their claws into FS2's code and content.  Moreover, it's perfectly possible to install, patch, and play retail FS2 and have an enjoyable, bug-free experience.

Of course, that's also why for Oblivion, Fallout 3, and now Skyrim, every Bethesda marketing campaign has begun with, "We've fixed what was wrong in the previous game!  (No, really!)"  They can't ever promise more of the same, because the status quo for Bethesda is to release a product that most would consider unacceptable, but with enough pre-release hype, they can cloud their consumers' vision to that fact.  To contrast this to Dragon Age, Bioware had to bend over backwards to convince people that nothing had changed between Origins and DA2 (when clearly quite a lot had), because even after having had time to reflect on the title, people wanted another game similar to Origins.

So, yeah.  Bethesda sucks because they are a game development house that makes bad games.  If they start making quality games again, I'll stop saying they suck.  If they make a habit of making good games, I might even start buying their games again.  If Skyrim sucks, then the next time they're hyping a new game, I'll probably poke my head in and remind you that (nearly) everything they said about Skyrim was bull****, just like I poked my head in here to remind you that (nearly) everything they said about Oblivion and Fallout 3 was bull****.

Oh, and RAH RAH.  I guess that was somehow obligatory.
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: Zacam on April 19, 2011, 02:47:59 am

I'm sort of with BlueFlames on this.

And I -like- Bethesda. I want to like them more, but they keep breaking my patience. While Morrowind is not as technically advanced an achievement as Oblivion or Fallout 3, there was LESS chance of Morrowind breaking on you for no good reason. And hey, we cut them breaks on anything that was goofy because we could, because it was new and because we had the tools. And more importantly, we used those tools to mostly create NEW (or replacement) content for their game, not fix it for them. Even with Tribunal and Bloodmoon releases and the subsequent Game of the Year edition, there was still a uniformity to them and a much better polish.

(Granted, I do have to say that loading up a brand new game and having Auto-Activation on Tribunal and Bloodmoon quests from the get go was pretty disturbing, but hey, it was a first and that was easily sorted, if not officially, then by fans. But it still din't -break- everything under the sun. And I wasn't a big fan of addons that needed Tribunal and Bloodmoon activated, even though they touched areas relevant to neither of them, just to take advantage of new ESM data, but again easily (if cumbersomely) fixable.)

And yes, it had quest trigger activation issues sometimes. Or other oddities. And back then, Bethesda cared more about hearing about them. They engaged "Fix" addon makers in the forums and made Patches. Granted, not -all- of the issues ever got addressed. But simply put, with or without Tribunal/Bloodmoon, you can install Morrowind, Patch (and if you are  so inclined, add the Unofficial "Patch") and Play. And then the only thing you have to worry about was conflicting addons if you had any, which was also easily solvable in many cases.

Now we come to Oblivion. Larger team. More involved people. Great community feedback on the do's and don'ts, likes and dislikes from Morrowind and the biggest thing they had going for it was Lip-Sync'd Voice Acting. Which doesn't help the stale conversations, the cardboard "population" or the over-abundantly detailed nothing that is the landscape. And even more buggy Quest triggers and Activations than Original Morrowind (much less GotY, pre-Patched). Inconsistencies in model texture/mesh and behaviours, still saran-wrapping spell effects and and total over-use of Bloom (or HDR if you were not on an ATI card, or if you were, you had to have the Chuck patch or kiss your game into a slideshow at the first Oblivion Gate) to make things look good because honestly, it all only looked "fairly decent" without it. Shivering Isles introduced a few issues, but nothing quite as damaging to them as what would later happen in

Fallout 3. I don't even know where to start. I love this game, but it's also the straw that made me finally hang up my coat in the Bethesda modding community. And that was BEFORE the tripe shenanigans of their DLC's came out and made it even MORE unnecessarily complex and frustrating. The Unofficial Patch for FO3 is larger than the one for Oblivion and Morrowind combined. And this was an engine they should have already been PERFECTLY familiar with due to Oblivion. And even with Oblivion's problems, it netted them enough of a profit that the FO3 team was as large if not maybe bigger than the Oblivion Team was, so what is the excuse for the amount of issues and poor DLC treatment? None what so ever, but they exist none-the-less.

And while New Vegas is not strictly ENTIRELY their fault, they have responsibility to make sure when they hand an IP over to be worked on that it at least meets the same Quality set by the preceding releases in the franchise. And they failed UTTERLY in accomplishing that.

I want to hope that maybe, just maybe, they may have finally actually gotten it right for Skyrim. I'll be buying regardless of whether they do or not because issues aside, I -like- evolving game engines and the things that can be done with them. I'm just sick and tired of the Community tools being more for fixing their mistakes that should have been ironed out in QA. But I'm -NOT_ going to believe until I have it, and I'm most certainly NOT going to hold my breath or berate anybody that is skeptical that Skyrim is going to live up to it's hype. Why? Three turns of phrase come to mind: "Fool me once, shame on me." "Once bitten, twice shy" and "Burned once, beats burned out"
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: MP-Ryan on April 19, 2011, 01:35:01 pm
While I'm all for skepticism regarding the hype (nowhere have I had a problem with that; it's when people descend to unadulterated bashing that I've spoken up), there is a lot of griping going on that really surprises me.

I have yet - despite, as I said, spending 100+ hours in each game - to find a problem that actually, irreparably, broke the game.  Maybe they existed on first release (generally I've waited until 8-12 months after release to play most new games), but they certainly haven't when I've taken my first run.  Bugs galore, sure - but again (and no one has spoken up yet) - who actually manages a completely free-roaming massive RPG better than Bethesda?

We're all comparing them to BioWare, themselves, or a few smaller or defunct/repurposed operations (Irrational / Looking Glass).  I might be more upset if I had another gold standard to point to and say "do it like them!" but we really don't.  Not that I don't seriously <3 BioWare (because I do), but their games lack the open mechanics of Bethesda's.  Yeah, they're a great experience but BioWare doesn't do "freedom" in software (nor should they; that's not their genre; incidentally, their QA/QC on the original Mass Effect was on par with Bethesda's in Oblivion).  Yeah, I'd love every manufacturer to have Valve's QA/QC ethic, but that also might bring about Valve's release schedule and nobody - I repeat, nobody - wants that for the whole industry.

Could they do better?  Absolutely.  And yes, we need to take all the hype with a massive box of salt.  But to say Bethesda, or any of their titles, suck is serious exaggeration.  I don't know many people who bought Morrowind, or Oblivion, or Fallout 3 and promptly uninstalled them (and by many, I mean zero) because they "sucked."  The vast majority played them as is and patiently waited for patches (or unofficial patches, on which the community has done an amazing job) and continued playing them.  That doesn't equate with the assertion that Bethesda makes "bad" or "sucky" games.  Buggy, poorly-tested, and slowly patched, absolutely... but that doesn't make a game bad.

For a bad game, I refer you to Zero Punctuation (http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/zero-punctuation/2607-Top-5-of-2010), because Ben says it so much better than I do =)
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: Grizzly on April 19, 2011, 01:55:42 pm
I actually wholly agree with what Zero Punctation says on Oblivion and Fallout 3... But that is not such a  a good thing as you make it sound.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/zero-punctuation/75-Oblivion
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: BlueFlames on April 20, 2011, 03:26:04 am
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I don't know many people who bought Morrowind, or Oblivion, or Fallout 3 and promptly uninstalled them

I got one playthrough each out of Oblivion and Fallout 3 (with their final official patches, mind you), prior to uninstalling.  They each individually held the record for shortest-time-installed on one of my computers, with Fallout 3 still retaining that dubious honor.  The only reason I got a full playthrough of Oblivion was to try to figure out where all of the Morrowind magic had gone.  Fallout 3 gave a strong first-impression, which started to fall apart after leaving the Vault.  I got to the end of FO3, constantly hoping that the feel of playing a first-person Fallout game could be recaptured at some point, but the game just kept travelling further and further down the path to bat****-crazytown, until finally, it arrived at an ending so terrible that Bethesda eventually gave up defending it and just retconned it (if you were willing to pump another ten dollars into the steaming pile of crap, anyway).

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who actually manages a completely free-roaming massive RPG better than Bethesda?

Maybe the better question is, "Does a large, free-roaming world actually benefit the RPG genre?"

The free-roaming concept worked for Red Faction - Guerilla, Dead Rising, and Just Cause, because it provided more opportunity for the player to smash stuff, kill zombies, and murder South Americans - the main draws of each of these games.  In RFG, rolling a tank into an EDF fortress is more fun, when you get to flatten all of the EDF checkpoints on the way, instead of having a loading screen before cutting directly to the fortress.  Something was gained by modelling a large, traversable world.  When the EDF get pissed with the Red Faction and begin shelling Dust, it's not seen in a cutscene of a pre-rendered city being blasted, but from the ground level, as the player evacuates key people and material from the town.  Something was gained by modelling the large, traversable world.  The list goes on.

What did Oblivion gain by having a large, free-roaming world?  You met more people, each with one of three voices.  Having a large, traversable world highlighted a shortcoming of the game.  You got to explore hundreds of dungeons, which were actually all carbon copies of about three unique dungeons.  Again, the open world highlighted a shortcoming of the game.  Intrepid explorers could accidentally stumble on elements of the main quest, not meant to be encountered until much, much later.  This issue likely wouldn't have existed at all, if not for the open world.

More broadly, what is there to be gained by having an RPG world more open than, say, Baldur's Gate II's, one that allowed some freedom to travel, without the need to model every cubic inch of dirt in Amn?  I'll grant, it is easier to feel a part of the world, if it is all physically modelled, but it can't just be dead space and random encounters between destinations.  An open world is something nice to have in an RPG, but it requires a great deal of time and effort to be invested.  If that investment isn't made, then the openness of the world becomes a liability, as it did in Oblivion.  Even if that investment is made, it cannot come at the expense of the quality of the narrative, or you still wind up with a bad RPG, like Fallout 3.

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Buggy, poorly-tested, and slowly patched, absolutely... but that doesn't make a game bad.

Really?  That seemed sufficient to damn Ultima IX as a critical failure and bury the franchise.  I don't recall Vampire - Bloodlines being an enormous success.  Shadow of Chernobyl was given amazing post-release support by the developers, and it still wasn't a blockbuster game, on account of its buggy release.

I'd say that shoddy development, especially when coupled with lackluster post-release support amount to several nails in a game's coffin, without a marketting behemoth like Zenimax stapling flyers to every forehead in America, in the hopes that they can sell loads of copies before word gets out about the game being a steaming pile of crap.

A non-Bethesda example:  Outpost (1).  This game sold on the merit of a glowing review in PC Gamer, accompanied by one of their highest scores to-date.  The problem was that PC Gamer reviewed the game, while it was still in beta, and assumed that all of the promised features and bugfixes would be in place by the time the final game was released.  Unfortunately, the publisher moved up the release date, and the beta version that was shown to PC Gamer was released in that very state, with none of the promised bugfixes or features implemented.  The result was a strategy game, in which there was no real objective, colonies could spontaneously die off, and two-thirds of the tech tree did absolutely nothing.  The game got patched once (though being patched at all was a rarity at the time) to fix a few crash bugs, but the show-stopping colony-die-off was not addressed, and the unimplemented features were never added.  It sold like hotcakes, though, because it got good early press.

Of course, the gaming press isn't quite that naive anymore, so direct marketting has to substitute for a review based on promises.  Still, professional critics seem to get swept away by the hype as well, as they too are in a pattern of lavishing praise upon Bethesda's games, only to pan them, two years after the criticism can do any good.

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For a bad game, I refer you to Zero Punctuation, because Ben says it so much better than I do =)

I will point out that the video to which you linked highlights three open-world games widely considered better than Oblivion or Fallout 3, since you keep asking for examples.  Also, as -Joshua- pointed out, Yahtzee has expressed little fondness for Bethesda's post-Morrowind offerings.
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: MP-Ryan on April 20, 2011, 01:06:09 pm
So now we've moved to the part where Bethesda makes bad games because you say they are bad, or Bethesda makes generally good games because I say they are good, have we?

Nothing either of us has said is based on anything objective.  What you seem to think are major problems I tend to view as minor (and easily avoided or fixed) issues.  I really don't see this inane back-and-forth going anywhere (except maybe another two pages until we both cease out of sheer can't-be-arsedness).  I'd love to talk about free world mechanics (and how badly they're implemented outside of the RPG genre), but I reached my can't-be-arsed phase two pages early today.

Regardless, my point was that - while skepticism of marketing hype is perfectly legitimate - complete disregard for a new Bethesda title is unwarranted.  You seem to feel otherwise.  More power to you.  As for me, I think Skyrim looks promising, and the tirades about Bethesda just sound - as I said before - tired.

As for ZP, neither FO3 or Oblivion was slammed as a "bad game" - which is my point.  There are quantifiable, tangible facts that shove a game from the "could have done better, but good effort" category down to that one (absence/incomprehensibility of a story; so crash-prone and buggy as to be unplayable, game mechanics that are so frustrating to use that they lead you directly to the uninstall button, etc).  I don't think Bethesda's games are there - and judging from the fact that you actually finished them, neither do you.
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: BlueFlames on April 20, 2011, 06:24:04 pm
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I don't think Bethesda's games are there - and judging from the fact that you actually finished them, neither do you.

While I'm willing to agree to disagree on the larger point, don't presume to know my opinion better than I do.  I've had enough respect for you in this exchange to not say, "You think Bethesda's games suck too, but you're in fanboy-denial!"

As I said, no game has spent less time on the hard drive of one of my computers than Oblivion or Fallout 3.  I've given multiple playthroughs to some pretty mediocre games, but Oblivion and Fallout 3 were awful enough that I couldn't stomach attempting multiple runs.  I do like to approach a game with an open mind and judge the game as a whole, and to me, that means a full playthrough, whether the beginning/middle are brilliant or crap.  So yes, I soldiered through the dreck that was Oblivion and Fallout 3.  The only games I own that I haven't finished are the ones that were simply too difficult to finish, and you'll note that I've been calling Bethesda's recent games bad, not hard.

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As for ZP, neither FO3 or Oblivion was slammed as a "bad game" - which is my point.

From his Oblivion review:  "Conversely, a lack of immersion can be a dog**** bullet, right between the eyes.  ...  Oblivion is one of the least immersive RPGs I've ever played."  To me, suggesting that a game has taken a "dog**** bullet, right between the eyes," is a more interesting way to say that the game is bad than dryly saying, "This is a bad game."
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: Nemesis6 on April 21, 2011, 07:40:35 am
Where Oblivion and Fallout 3 shine is the modding scene. If there's something you don't like, there's most likely a mod to fix it, likewise if there's something you think the game needs, like better graphics or more locations.
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: Grizzly on April 21, 2011, 02:42:57 pm
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I'd love to talk about free world mechanics (and how badly they're implemented outside of the RPG genre),

STAAAAALKEEEER!!!!

There, I said it :P.

The problem I simply have with the oblivion and fallout games is a lack of focus: Sure, there's a lot to do, but the stuff that's there to do is quite boring and repetitve. There's some good bits, but they are few and far between.

Where Oblivion and Fallout 3 shine is the modding scene. If there's something you don't like, there's most likely a mod to fix it, likewise if there's something you think the game needs, like better graphics or more locations.

Meh. Mods do not fix the story or the characters... Well. Okay. There's one mod I know that actually fixed the entire story of a certain expansion pack, but that is quite the exception.
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: Topgun on June 07, 2011, 10:46:35 am
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTURc3Fv8Xs

Ill just leave this here

Spoiler:
4:30 and onward has dragons
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: General Battuta on June 07, 2011, 10:50:42 am
Dragons confirmed for new Oblivion Gates
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: Scotty on June 07, 2011, 11:28:41 am
At least they move, done't dick up the landscape after they're dead, and give you magic. :P

As opposed to they give you magic for the Oblivion Gates.
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: NGTM-1R on June 07, 2011, 11:39:57 am
At least they move, done't dick up the landscape after they're dead, and give you magic. :P

As opposed to they give you magic for the Oblivion Gates.

They only dick up the landscape while they're alive?
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: General Battuta on June 07, 2011, 11:40:39 am
That tower was indeed pretty phallic
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: PsychoLandlord on June 07, 2011, 12:14:13 pm
At least they move, done't dick up the landscape after they're dead, and give you magic. :P

As opposed to they give you magic for the Oblivion Gates.

As well as looking to be quite a bit more fun than your average Oblivion gate slog. I'm still looking forward to closing in on some unique beasty on the tundra and having a Dragon come out of nowhere and **** me outta cool loot, though.
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: Grizzly on June 08, 2011, 09:54:13 am
I predict that one of the first mods for Skyrim will involve the dragon's power in relation to the player.
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: General Battuta on June 08, 2011, 10:01:23 am
I predict that one of the first mods for Skyrim will involve the dragon's power in relation to the player.

Let's be honest, the first mod for Skyrim will give the ogres giant dicks.
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: PsychoLandlord on June 08, 2011, 12:15:35 pm
I'm looking forward to the multitude of poorly implemented Dragon-Riding mods.
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: Nemesis6 on June 09, 2011, 08:02:15 am
Listening to what the person playing(whoever he is, I didn't really pay attention) said about how you could be anybody seems like a half-truth. As I understand, you're locked in the role of that "Dragonborn" guy, so any branching is just weapon and skill-wise.
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: General Battuta on June 09, 2011, 08:58:30 am
Listening to what the person playing(whoever he is, I didn't really pay attention) said about how you could be anybody seems like a half-truth. As I understand, you're locked in the role of that "Dragonborn" guy, so any branching is just weapon and skill-wise.

No, the Dragonborn can be anyone (species/gender/class).
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: Grizzly on June 09, 2011, 11:05:17 am
Just like you were the chosen one in all previous games I geuss...
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: PsychoLandlord on June 09, 2011, 12:17:47 pm
Starting you off in a prison situation, telling you you're the chosen one, and thats it. Thats the extent of any character development the Elder Scrolls games have done for you, and Skyrim looks to be no different.

And in this one you start out at your execution. So I guess they're kinda trying to break the mold. A teensy bit.
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: BlueFlames on June 09, 2011, 03:37:26 pm
Starting you off in a prison situation, telling you your the chosen one, and thats it. Thats the extent of any character development the Elder Scrolls games have done for you, and Skyrim looks to be no different.

And in this one you start out at your execution. So I guess they're kinda trying to break the mold. A teensy bit.

Sounds like the length of the game might be a touch underwhelming.  ;)

[edit] Actually, wait a second....  I've gone on wholesale genocides before, and the guards only ever tried to charge me a few thousand gold or jail me for a week and a half for the trouble.  What the hell can you do in the Elder Scrolls game that will net you the death penalty?! [/edit]
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: MP-Ryan on June 09, 2011, 04:12:02 pm
What the hell can you do in the Elder Scrolls game that will net you the death penalty?!

Refuse to pay your bills (to the guards).

Not all that different than quite a few modern democracies, in that sense :P
Title: Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Post by: phatosealpha on June 10, 2011, 02:43:15 pm
Put on the mask of the Grey Fox, and they'll kill you on sight.