[Mars]

Steele did just lose a destroyer, I don't think that could NOT effect his political power a little.

[SpardaSon21]

It strengthened it.  He was able to use the loss of the Carthage in order to basically take complete control over all operations in Sol, beyond even what he had prior.

[Phantom Hoover]

Steele did just lose a destroyer, I don't think that could NOT effect his political power a little.

From the broader GTVA perspective, the loss of the Carthage was the result of Lopez's incompetence, not Steele's command.

[Gray113]

Did Steele use the loss of the Carthage to gain the Vengeance and Phoenicia? I was under the impression that the Carthage was going to leave Sol as soon as it was fit to transit the node and that these were scheduled replacements. If the Pallas and Ilium are what you meant there is no confirmation that these are going to actually be used. (They could be diverted in the event of unforeseen circumstances or simply just be misinformation)

[Gray113]

One thing that I haven't seen discussed much is the losses to the SOC and much of Steele's intelligence infrastructure. If there is one thing that really will turn the tide of the war it is now the fact the Fedayeen can now work with near total freedom due to the SCO losing their best pilots during Eyes in the Storm, the loss of Steele's mole and the framing of Kostadin. Also Fedayeen influence in GEF society now that Kostadin is gone limits the TEVs ability to use the GEf as an ally.
Steele needs to rebuild his Intelligence assets ASAP.

[The E]

SOC is more than just an elite fighter squadron, just as the Fedayeen are way more than an elite fighter squadron. Assuming that the loss of a couple of highly specialized assets means the total loss of capability would be foolish.

[Gray113]

Not total loss of capacity but loss of momentum due to not being able to carry out covert intelligence gathering/fighter missions to the same scale/ability which would put them at a severe disadvantage to Fedayeen operatives. We have to see now what other assets Steele can call in.

[The E]

Umm, sorry, but I fail to see how the loss of a few fighters and pilots will affect standard HUMINT activities in Sol. Hell, the kind of splashy fighter actions we've seen SOC do in the games is probably only a very small part of the entirety of their activities. I mean, if I wanted to gather covert intelligence, I'd hijack a freighter, strap a sensor package onto its hull, and let it cruise through enemy territory. Hell, if I wanted to observe a known position, I can just park a ship with a sufficiently sensitive telescope a few lightminutes out and just take a look.

After EitS, SOC has lost the ability to easily do one specific set of missions, specifically those that can be handled best by sending a fighter wing. There are still plenty of fighter wings available, if push comes to shove. There are also only very few missions that SOC does that fall into that category.

[Gray113]

SOC are the elite though and in the time leading up to the main attack on Earth I would expect those pilots would have been utilised to best extent - identifying targets of opportunity, assassinations, surgical strikes, and generally keeping the pressure on the Fedayeen. The scope for such action would be now be drastically reduced without the skills those pilots possessed.

I wasn't just pilots they lost either, those troop transports would have been carrying operatives whose tasks would involve getting in to difficult places to acquire information and specialised fighting troops that would have been used to overpower garrisons in key installations.

SOC would of course continue to operate in Sol but I could imagine the effect to be akin to losing one of your hands. The SOC can still plan an operation but they may require regular forces to carry out some of the diffcult missions meaning that the chances of success are much lower.

I wasn't just talking about the SOC either, the other Intelligence assets we have seen Steele utilise were damaged during act3 (the GEF, his mole) and the Fedayeen have shown themselves to be his equal. Without SOC being able to occupy the Fedayeen's attentions then it may end up that he cannot stop the Fedayeen from destabilising his buildup and reducing his chances of victory at Earth.

Unless there are additional assets in place he can utilise - in which case my speculation is useless 

(P.S E where the hell did I say losing the pilots would lead to a total loss of capacity? I said the damage done to all of what we have seen of Steele's intelligence infrastructure would give the Fedayeen freedom to operate, the SOC pilots were just one part of that.)

[Drogoth]

Surgical strikes can be handled by standard fighter wings. You only need SOC wings for covert surgical strikes akin to the fedayeen first mission.

Also I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say he SOC is friggen huge. The GTVA is a large polity, and certainly in BP canon, possesses a fairly restive populace. In addition to a capable fleet it would be sheer lunacy for the Tevs to keep the SOC tiny. Half the reason they are so elite and experienced is because they get blooded on subversion missions a lot, or at least that's what I read into them from the back story.

I have to assume they operate on a similar level to the GTI in pre GTVA time, allthough post Silent Threat probably with a lot more oversight. But considering GTI possessed not one, but two capital ships for their exclusive use, and those are just the ones we saw, with, I might add, a full scale GTI rebellion taking place. A revolt by a significant portion of your forces should put a significant dent in the number of ships you can field, yet they could still field two orions that we personally saw.

I think the insinuation that losing a few fighter wings and some transports would cripple or seriously harm the spaceborne operations of the SOC  to be laughably far fetched. Fighters are replaceable, and more SOC pilots can be rotated in from out system.

On the topic of the transports - were they loaded with SOC operatives? Or run of the mill marines? I honestly don't remember, and I'm not in the position to do the checking right now (wrong computer), but from what I remember of the mission that doesn't seem like the job for transport upon transport of specialized operatives. Elite cadres of marines sure, with a few specialists on board, yeah I can buy that. But how hard is it to secure a station against hostile boarders or its current inhabitants? That's exactly what marines are trained for, I don't see why a standard force of Tev marines couldn't have been used for that purpose. Again, the Tevs are well practiced at putting out regional bush fires, I expect their marine core is suitably large, disciplined, and competent.

SOC operations don't need to be purely SOC shows, and standard fleet elements can often (and I would be surprised if they didn't) directly support those operations. You don't need to know what the objective was if your orders are just 'hold this stations' or 'cover these fighters'. The Fedayeen and the Fed fleet work together  now and then, such as the attack on the carthage, I don't see why the SOC and he Tev fleet would not. Just because the SOC had a hand in some mission element doesn't mean that every asset destroyed was an SOC asset - it doesn't even mean most of them were.

[Gray113]

The SOC may indeed be huge. The GTVA military certainly is and yet they can only maintain 4 destroyers in system on a long term basis. Given the threats that the GTVA face from alien races and internal division I hardily think that the SOC would keep the most of their forces in Sol. Also the attack is comming in less than two weeks can they really divert other assets to Sol in time to make a diference?

[Drogoth]

I didn't say they maintained most of their operatives in Sol, I said any lost operatives are easily replaced.

And yeah, the attack is coming in a short time, which means that it probably doesn't matter that much anyways. I was just kind of addressing your point about the damage to Steele's intel stream, which i just don't think is as damaged as you claim.

[Aesaar]

You kill, what, 20 fighters in EitS?  I doubt most of those were SOC.  I'd bet on just the 6 Nyxes, myself.  You don't need SOC to escort transports.

Moreover, SOC pilots aren't necessarily the elite.  You fly missions for SOC pretty early in FS2, if you'll recall.

[Phantom Hoover]

Moreover, SOC pilots aren't necessarily the elite.  You fly missions for SOC pretty early in FS2, if you'll recall.

This is the most damning counterargument: assuming your experience in FS2 is typical (and really, it's all we've got to go on), SOC pilots are initially recruited on a part-time basis from the rank-and-file GTVA. It is abundantly clear by now that there is more than enough wiggle room for the team to explain away this supposed 'plot hole', so I don't really see the point in discussing it further.

[General Battuta]

Where did anybody suggest a plot hole?

[An4ximandros]

 He just did.

 And there is no plot hole. SOC does special assignments through elite pilots supplemented by talented standard ones (Alpha 1 Jr.) (http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/Love_the_Treason...)

[FIZ]

Well, given the GTI rebellion, I could argue the Security Council's resistance to let SOC grow too large.  While SOC did confirm the 'Paul Revere' cry that the Shivans are coming in FS2, how much more they contributed is (by nature) ambiguous.  The first SOC loop only succeeded to a point where the freighter was captured.   Aken escaped and we do rely on his monologues more than anything to discover his motives/ drive the plot.

I think I am more worried (in a good way) about facing more 'Evaluation Units' 

[General Battuta]

He just did.

That was a reference, I'm asking for the referent.

And don't forget that GTI let Aken go as much as he escaped!

[Phantom Hoover]

Where did anybody suggest a plot hole?

...somehow in my head this discussion got mixed up and I thought it was yet another "why didn't such-and-such/how could such-and-such do X, it would have solved everything/it makes no sense".

[qwadtep]

Whatever the case, I seriously doubt that Steele would commit forces in such a way that a single tactical defeat would cripple him.

But considering GTI possessed not one, but two capital ships for their exclusive use,

Three, since BP follows ST:R, plus the Hades.