Author Topic: Regarding Goober5000 & Moderation in Political Discussion  (Read 54771 times)

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Offline Sandwich

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Re: Regarding Goober5000 & Moderation in Political Discussion
We're absolutely being treated as second class citizens by you and, perhaps most importantly, Goober, who is free to belittle and insult everyone for any reason he likes and abuses his moderation powers as soon as pushback happens. And when push comes to shove, he can't even apologize. Instead we get a lecture by you about how the power system works on a website you haven't actually participated in in a decade.

I must have missed where Goober "belittl[ed] and insult[ed] everyone"; link please?

What I did see was other people going from debating the topic to issuing personal attacks.

Goober was wrong in his deletion of the thread. He has acknowledged that, and apologized for it. I'm well aware the community deemed it insufficient; I wasn't all that happy with it either. Now, there would have been (and still might be) another apology issued; I've been working with him on that this week.

However, due to the events which took place over the last 24 hours (which I want to inform you of as soon as I can; probably later today), only some of which you are aware, I cannot guarantee that Goober's refined apology is forthcoming. I will be encouraging him to post the apology despite what has happened, but there's simply no guarantee. I haven't spoken with him yet today.
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"...The quintessential quality of our age is that of dreams coming true. Just think of it. For centuries we have dreamt of flying; recently we made that come true: we have always hankered for speed; now we have speeds greater than we can stand: we wanted to speak to far parts of the Earth; we can: we wanted to explore the sea bottom; we have: and so  on, and so on: and, too, we wanted the power to smash our enemies utterly; we have it. If we had truly wanted peace, we should have had that as well. But true peace has never been one of the genuine dreams - we have got little further than preaching against war in order to appease our consciences. The truly wishful dreams, the many-minded dreams are now irresistible - they become facts." - 'The Outward Urge' by John Wyndham

"The very essence of tolerance rests on the fact that we have to be intolerant of intolerance. Stretching right back to Kant, through the Frankfurt School and up to today, liberalism means that we can do anything we like as long as we don't hurt others. This means that if we are tolerant of others' intolerance - especially when that intolerance is a call for genocide - then all we are doing is allowing that intolerance to flourish, and allowing the violence that will spring from that intolerance to continue unabated." - Bren Carlill

 

Offline Sandwich

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Re: Regarding Goober5000 & Moderation in Political Discussion
The line that “this is all being sorted out internally by staff, be patient” is now a bad joke given that we can hear the gunfire and explosions from the staff board and Axem just got wheeled out on a gurney.

I can't even begin to imagine what y'all are speculating really happened.

Axem's departure is a decision I truly hope he reverses; he has been pretty darn level-headed throughout most of this.
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"...The quintessential quality of our age is that of dreams coming true. Just think of it. For centuries we have dreamt of flying; recently we made that come true: we have always hankered for speed; now we have speeds greater than we can stand: we wanted to speak to far parts of the Earth; we can: we wanted to explore the sea bottom; we have: and so  on, and so on: and, too, we wanted the power to smash our enemies utterly; we have it. If we had truly wanted peace, we should have had that as well. But true peace has never been one of the genuine dreams - we have got little further than preaching against war in order to appease our consciences. The truly wishful dreams, the many-minded dreams are now irresistible - they become facts." - 'The Outward Urge' by John Wyndham

"The very essence of tolerance rests on the fact that we have to be intolerant of intolerance. Stretching right back to Kant, through the Frankfurt School and up to today, liberalism means that we can do anything we like as long as we don't hurt others. This means that if we are tolerant of others' intolerance - especially when that intolerance is a call for genocide - then all we are doing is allowing that intolerance to flourish, and allowing the violence that will spring from that intolerance to continue unabated." - Bren Carlill

 

Offline BlackDove

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Re: Regarding Goober5000 & Moderation in Political Discussion
Man, if all this results in is Axem leaving, goddamn, something really is wrong with the way things are.

 
Re: Regarding Goober5000 & Moderation in Political Discussion
Why does it have to take you a week to come up with something I can do in 5 seconds? Are you trying to finely craft a PR statement?

Quote
I must have missed where Goober "belittl[ed] and insult[ed] everyone"; link please?

If you're going to cast judgement that is apperently opposed to "everyone else" and haven't even kept up with Goober's conduct over the years, what are you even doing?

 

Offline Sandwich

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Re: Regarding Goober5000 & Moderation in Political Discussion
Man, if all this results in is Axem leaving, goddamn, something really is wrong with the way things are.

Agreed.

I do have to point out that I really, really should be working right now, so I may have to excuse myself for a number of hours here. Sorry I can't stick around and give you regular updates.
SERIOUSLY...! | {The Sandvich Bar} - Rhino-FS2 Tutorial | CapShip Turret Upgrade | The Complete FS2 Ship List | System Background Package

"...The quintessential quality of our age is that of dreams coming true. Just think of it. For centuries we have dreamt of flying; recently we made that come true: we have always hankered for speed; now we have speeds greater than we can stand: we wanted to speak to far parts of the Earth; we can: we wanted to explore the sea bottom; we have: and so  on, and so on: and, too, we wanted the power to smash our enemies utterly; we have it. If we had truly wanted peace, we should have had that as well. But true peace has never been one of the genuine dreams - we have got little further than preaching against war in order to appease our consciences. The truly wishful dreams, the many-minded dreams are now irresistible - they become facts." - 'The Outward Urge' by John Wyndham

"The very essence of tolerance rests on the fact that we have to be intolerant of intolerance. Stretching right back to Kant, through the Frankfurt School and up to today, liberalism means that we can do anything we like as long as we don't hurt others. This means that if we are tolerant of others' intolerance - especially when that intolerance is a call for genocide - then all we are doing is allowing that intolerance to flourish, and allowing the violence that will spring from that intolerance to continue unabated." - Bren Carlill

 

Offline Sandwich

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Re: Regarding Goober5000 & Moderation in Political Discussion
Why does it have to take you a week to come up with something I can do in 5 seconds? Are you trying to finely craft a PR statement?

If you must know, he and I were working on it, intermittently back and forth (we do have other RL responsibilities, you know) from midday Tuesday my time, to midday Wednesday. We were awaiting admin/mod response to something internally after that, and then the sh*t hit the fan.


Quote
I must have missed where Goober "belittl[ed] and insult[ed] everyone"; link please?

If you're going to cast judgement that is apperently opposed to "everyone else" and haven't even kept up with Goober's conduct over the years, what are you even doing?

Balancing my real-life responsibilities (I'm a 42-year-old father of 3), with my work on a new forum theme for HLP so we can upgrade past the PHP version we're stuck on. Not every admin can do everything.
SERIOUSLY...! | {The Sandvich Bar} - Rhino-FS2 Tutorial | CapShip Turret Upgrade | The Complete FS2 Ship List | System Background Package

"...The quintessential quality of our age is that of dreams coming true. Just think of it. For centuries we have dreamt of flying; recently we made that come true: we have always hankered for speed; now we have speeds greater than we can stand: we wanted to speak to far parts of the Earth; we can: we wanted to explore the sea bottom; we have: and so  on, and so on: and, too, we wanted the power to smash our enemies utterly; we have it. If we had truly wanted peace, we should have had that as well. But true peace has never been one of the genuine dreams - we have got little further than preaching against war in order to appease our consciences. The truly wishful dreams, the many-minded dreams are now irresistible - they become facts." - 'The Outward Urge' by John Wyndham

"The very essence of tolerance rests on the fact that we have to be intolerant of intolerance. Stretching right back to Kant, through the Frankfurt School and up to today, liberalism means that we can do anything we like as long as we don't hurt others. This means that if we are tolerant of others' intolerance - especially when that intolerance is a call for genocide - then all we are doing is allowing that intolerance to flourish, and allowing the violence that will spring from that intolerance to continue unabated." - Bren Carlill

 

Offline qazwsx

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Re: Regarding Goober5000 & Moderation in Political Discussion
If you must know, he and I were working on it, intermittently back and forth (we do have other RL responsibilities, you know) from midday Tuesday my time, to midday Wednesday. We were awaiting admin/mod response to something internally after that, and then the sh*t hit the fan.
Neither of you seem to actually understand what people are angry about. I don't see how an apology crafted by you two will help.
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Re: Regarding Goober5000 & Moderation in Political Discussion

Quote
I must have missed where Goober "belittl[ed] and insult[ed] everyone"; link please?

If you're going to cast judgement that is apperently opposed to "everyone else" and haven't even kept up with Goober's conduct over the years, what are you even doing?

Balancing my real-life responsibilities (I'm a 42-year-old father of 3), with my work on a new forum theme for HLP so we can upgrade past the PHP version we're stuck on. Not every admin can do everything.

I am very much aware of that, which is why I question your conduct throughout this thread.

 

Offline Lorric

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Re: Regarding Goober5000 & Moderation in Political Discussion
So the HLP staff have managed to try and do something right and made it worse than if they'd done nothing at all.


 

Offline MP-Ryan

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Re: Regarding Goober5000 & Moderation in Political Discussion
Since people have asked for someone other than Sandwich to communicate what's going on and Sandwich is agreed (several posts ago) and I have a few minutes before work this morning:  A majority of active staff have called for Goober's removal since the abuse of power situation arose.  A majority of staff have also indicated they will resign if Goober's admin status continues.  We attempted a compromise that clearly did not work.

If you see several staff are no longer staff in the coming days (myself included, as of Friday if the situation persists), you now know why.
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Re: Regarding Goober5000 & Moderation in Political Discussion
Are there any emergency plans to draft new staff members in that case?

 

Offline MP-Ryan

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Re: Regarding Goober5000 & Moderation in Political Discussion
Are there any emergency plans to draft new staff members in that case?

That is a question I'd suggest addressing to Sandwich and Goober.
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Offline Lorric

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Re: Regarding Goober5000 & Moderation in Political Discussion
Since people have asked for someone other than Sandwich to communicate what's going on and Sandwich is agreed (several posts ago) and I have a few minutes before work this morning:  A majority of active staff have called for Goober's removal since the abuse of power situation arose.  A majority of staff have also indicated they will resign if Goober's admin status continues.  We attempted a compromise that clearly did not work.

If you see several staff are no longer staff in the coming days (myself included, as of Friday if the situation persists), you now know why.
I don't understand. How does the minority get to overrule the majority? Is it HLP ownership that wants to keep Goober as admin?

 

Offline Lorric

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Re: Regarding Goober5000 & Moderation in Political Discussion
Are there any emergency plans to draft new staff members in that case?

That is a question I'd suggest addressing to Sandwich and Goober.
I think this may provide the answer to my earlier question.

Possibly, staff wanted to de-admin Goober and did so. Sandwich re-admined him. Axem de-admined himself in protest, and more staff will resign in protest at this, leaving Goober and Sandwich running the show.

 

Offline karajorma

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Re: Regarding Goober5000 & Moderation in Political Discussion
Since people have asked for someone other than Sandwich to communicate what's going on and Sandwich is agreed (several posts ago) and I have a few minutes before work this morning:  A majority of active staff have called for Goober's removal since the abuse of power situation arose.  A majority of staff have also indicated they will resign if Goober's admin status continues.  We attempted a compromise that clearly did not work.

If you see several staff are no longer staff in the coming days (myself included, as of Friday if the situation persists), you now know why.
I don't understand. How does the minority get to overrule the majority? Is it HLP ownership that wants to keep Goober as admin?

Nope. We're just being too nice. People are saying they'll leave rather than kicking out the people who are the problem.


Nobody is preventing anyone else from posting here; I honestly don't know why none of the other admins or global mods have given any updates.


I'm not surprised you don't understand why. The main reason I haven't posted was mainly down to showing both yourself and Goober more respect by not discussing what is going on in the internal than you've shown us with your hints about it. (That and the fact that my Internet has decided today is a good day to break down, leading to me having to do this on the phone)


You want a post. Given that your intransigence over losing Goober is a major factor in us possibly losing Axem, fine I'll post.


As far as I'm concerned Goober has been given every chance to apologise for his actions. Instead last week Goober reiterated on the global moderator board that he feels that should the global mods and admins not agree with his definition of defamation he'd feel entitled to look into legal options.


That was my last straw. And I called for Goober to be de-admined. I've tried to be fair to Goober given his long history on this board but at this point I no longer give a damn what is in that apology. I simply do not trust it.


At this point every single admin or global mod except for Sandwich who has commented agrees that Goober should go. We've posted as much on the internal.


Last night, the actual de-admining was handled badly. I'm not going to into the details but plans had been discussed but were largely ignored.
This appears to have been Axem's last straw and he de-admined himself over it. I don't blame him as I almost followed him. The global moderators have also expressed severe frustration with how this entire fiasco has been handled and I'd bet money on them also leaving if Goober remains an admin.


So why do I still have the title admin next to my name? Why didn't I quit too? Because I feel that HLP deserves better. If I quit, it would be to go to whatever People's Front of Hard Light site got set up. No. The community has spent years building up our reputation as THE place for Freespace. It shouldn't be burned down because one person can't stand to hear some uncomfortable truths.


Quite frankly I feel I bear some of the blame for this mess. Instead of slapping Goober down as an admin for his threat to sue, I challenged him to also sue me like a regular forum member might have. This was meant as an attempt to head off any drama rather than escalate it to the point where it would require anything more serious than a clarification from Goober that he didn't intend to sue or bully other users.


That was a mistake as I hadn't considered that Goober would be this stubborn.


This was also a mistake because it means as someone involved in the altercation on the thread, I have felt a pressure to stay out of the discussions over how to resolve things.


 Given the events today, I don't feel that it is helpful to do that when I'm dealing with a pair of admins who feel that the rest of the forum shouldn't have a say in how HLP is run because it is a benevolent dictatorship.


Goober has to go. He cannot remain an admin on HLP. I didn't want to post that earlier because I was a coward. I didn't want to face accusations of rabble rousing. I no longer care about that.
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Offline Mongoose

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Re: Regarding Goober5000 & Moderation in Political Discussion
I will also step down if Goober is not removed. Right now we have a situation where one admin is standing against the wishes of every other staff member, most of whom have been FAR more active here over the past several years than he has. I want no part of a staff where Goober is deemed competent to help run a site.

 

Offline BlackDove

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Re: Regarding Goober5000 & Moderation in Political Discussion
Okay, so none of us second class citizens had any idea it was like that.

If that is the case, Sandwich and Goober should just post whether they want to remain the two sole admins of HLP or not. If they say yes, then that should be that.

Everything else has been argued I think.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2020, 09:20:49 am by BlackDove »

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Regarding Goober5000 & Moderation in Political Discussion
Maybe I'm naive here but why not just, uh, remove them both? Take the IDF approach to collateral damage here?

 

Offline BlackDove

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Re: Regarding Goober5000 & Moderation in Political Discussion
That's really the crux of the matter though, right? Doing the right thing.

 
Re: Regarding Goober5000 & Moderation in Political Discussion
The whole discussion is just so dump. So much arguing over what? An not-apology for some lapsus and bs happening in PolDisc? I wish the staff members had spend the time arguing playing SR instead of stiring up that amount of drama. I don't think anybody just running away deserves any king of respect.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2020, 09:31:48 am by Nightmare »