[Phantom Hoover]

As I'm sure many site regulars are aware, nearly two weeks ago, Goober5000 took offence to a discussion that identified Trump and his base as supporting white nationalism, Goober included. He brought up the threat of legal action for defamation, and when this was roundly mocked and he was told that if he was going to support politicians the consequences were down to him, he unilaterally deleted the entire thread. This despite MP_Ryan doing what he wanted and asking community members to censor the offending material! At this point, the shutter came down, the mods said "we're dealing with it" and we've heard nothing since.

This is just not acceptable. Goober's far right views, tendency to argue about them and his willingness to use his official status in the community and membership of the leadership clique have, over the years, actively driven off several good members who were contributing to the community and has alienated far more people who just see the aforementioned clique acting first and foremost to prevent 'drama' and keep things amongst themselves, even if it means giving a toxic member his way. He has now flagrantly abused his administrative powers and every indication is that the admins of this site are intending to keep this hushed up and change absolutely nothing.

This must change. Goober is not essential to HLP. He does not need to be an administrator, the site does not need him in a leadership role, and in fact he is actively harming site leadership by remaining in his position. As non-moderator members of the community have been totally silenced and effectively told our voices mean nothing by the way the admins have chosen to handle this, I am publicly calling for him to resign or be stripped of his roles and for all who support this to join me in this thread.

[Aesaar]

I think it sends quite a ****ty message that all discussion of this issue was kept internal, as though the only opinions that matter are staff ones.

No, Goober abusing his power isn't an issue that only concerns admins and moderators.

EDIT: oh, by the way:

by degrees or all-at-once, this has already been discussed

Yeah, and in that discussion, everyone was either ok with it or indifferent, but Goober decided that his two dissenting voices were enough to decide the issue.

Goober abusing his power is hardly a new phenomenon.

[Grizzly]

I'm very surprised that this moderation issue has taken this long, since I'm quite sure that anyone else who'd attempt to coerce people into retracting their views by taking legal action against a 90s game modding forum would just get an instant ban.

[qazwsx]

I'm very surprised that this moderation issue has taken this long, since I'm quite sure that anyone else who'd attempt to coerce people into retracting their views by taking legal action against a 90s game modding forum would just get an instant ban.

I spend a lot of time lurking on HLP and very little posting, but even I can see that HLP has a time-honored tradition of arguing until everyone gets too bored/tired to do anything about the issue. This has been "in discussion" for 2 weeks and I don't expect any real change to come of it. I agree that he should be stripped of his role.

[Nightmare]

Goober is not essential to HLP. He does not need to be an administrator, the site does not need him in a leadership role, and in fact he is actively harming site leadership by remaining in his position.

Says somebody who has contributed last time... how many years ago, if ever? HLP is a gaming forum, not a political discussion board; in particular none in which you need to have a certain opinion to participate in. Goober has spent like 1000 times more of his freetime operating the SCP and HLP as whole, than half of the people replying in this thread. I do not tolerate the abuse of moderating power in general; deleting the entire topic was certainly childish abuse and I hope that stuff like that doesn't happen again. However, the incident occured in question occured in a locked board, so it does not harm HLPs reputation by any sort. Also; you could say that ganging up on a member because of his views is damaging for HLPs reputation, scaring off people who don't consider themselves left-wing and perhaps prefer a community with non-toxic members.

The same way I could argue demoting The_E as Discord mod for his stupidity of kicking an active contributor over literally "idk, I somehow felt totally offended by this inoffensive statement somehow, can't really tell", but it got sorted out too.

And yeah the thread should be put somewhere where nobody can see it, no need to make the drama public.

[Aesaar]

Says somebody who has contributed last time... how many years ago, if ever?

Who the **** cares?  Contributing to the game does not require an admin title, and calling out abuse of power sure as **** shouldn't require it.  If Goober can't deal with having his opinions meaningfully challenged without throwing a tantrum, then he's proven unfit for the job.  I don't remember The_E, or Karajorma, or Sandwich, or Axem, or anyone else threatening legal action against anyone here or on discord.

And if enough contributions give you carte blanche do do whatever you want with nothing but a slap on the wrist, then at least stop pretending that the rules apply to everyone equally.

HLP is a gaming forum, not a political discussion board

Au contraire.  The Political Discussions subforum is a political discussion board.  You know, as the name implies.

Also; you could say that ganging up on a member because of his views is damaging for HLPs reputation, scaring off people who don't consider themselves left-wing and perhaps prefer a community with non-toxic members.

I don't remember anyone else throwing a tantrum like Goober did.  If someone doesn't want to deal with having their ****ty political opinions called out, then they shouldn't participate in political discussions.  No one forced Goober to rabidly defend Trump.  Him deciding to do so and then throwing a tantrum because he got called out is like a schoolyard bully crying for his mommy the moment someone hits back.

no need to make the drama public.

Goober should have thought of that before throwing his tantrum.

[Phantom Hoover]

This isn't about political alignment. No other active admin has tried to pull a stunt like this to insulate their political views from criticism, at least not within the past several years. Goober's admin powers are a privilege afforded to him to help him serve the community just like everyone else's, not a right that he's earned by years of participation. He has made it abundantly clear that he is unworthy of that privilege.

[Nightmare]

Who the **** cares?  Contributing to the game does not require an admin title, and calling out abuse of power sure as **** shouldn't require it.  If Goober can't deal with having his opinions meaningfully challenged without throwing a tantrum, then he's proven unfit for the job.  I don't remember The_E, or Karajorma, or Sandwich, or Axem, or anyone else threatening legal action against anyone here or on discord.

And if enough contributions give you carte blanche do do whatever you want with nothing but a slap on the wrist, then at least stop pretending that the rules apply to everyone equally.

I don't remember anyone else throwing a tantrum like Goober did.  If someone doesn't want to deal with having their ****ty political opinions called out, then they shouldn't participate in political discussions.  No one forced Goober to rabidly defend Trump.  Him deciding to do so and then throwing a tantrum because he got called out is like a schoolyard bully crying for his mommy the moment someone hits back.

TBH I just don't take internet drama that serious. If somebody who's not the lawyer of some big corp threatens people with legal action I give it a gringe and move along.

HLP is a gaming forum, not a political discussion board

Au contraire.  The Political Discussions subforum is a political discussion board.  You know, as the name implies.

WAIT. The Political Discussion forum is about something with politics? I thought it was about ****fighting.

no need to make the drama public.

Goober should have thought of that before throwing his tantrum.

Well Phantom Hoover decided to make it public, not I.

[Grizzly]

HLP is a gaming forum, not a political discussion board; in particular none in which you need to have a certain opinion to participate in. I do not tolerate the abuse of moderating power in general; deleting the entire topic was certainly childish abuse and I hope that stuff like that doesn't happen again. However, the incident occured in question occured in a locked board, so it does not harm HLPs reputation by any sort.

Which makes it all the more baffling why Goober choose to threaten to sue people for defamation. It happened entirely because Goober disagreed with another member's political views, and the threats were made despite such political opinions existing not harming HLP's reputation or operation as an FS2 modding website, against people who have contributed a lot to FS2 modding over the years.

[Nightmare]

Which makes it all the more baffling why Goober choose to threaten to sue people for defamation. It happened entirely because Goober disagreed with another member's political views, and the threats were made despite such political opinions existing not harming HLP's reputation or operation as an FS2 modding website, against people who have contributed a lot to FS2 modding over the years.

Yeah, I wouldn't doubt that that was pretty off, it just felt so completely out of place.

[Phantom Hoover]

Goober made this 'drama' public when he made public threats of legal action and then censored an entire thread when he thought he might not get his way. The consequences of his actions remain public. The real question is why it should have suddenly been made private for two weeks, other than to insulate Goober from the justifiable outrage and calls for him to face consequences from the general community.

[Axem]

The whole issue about Goober and the thread in question has been discussed quite a bit in the internal boards and we're just in the middle of crafting public statements to communicate what's been decided and what's going to change going forward.

This has taken longer than we would have all liked, but people get busy so the discussion doesn't always come at as fast a pace as I'd like. For something like this I think it would've been a mistake to just let a couple staff members handle this mess alone.

Please continue to be patient.

[Mobius]

Just my 2 cents, as I don't pretend to be an authority on any matter.

What happens in General Discussion and Political Discussions should stay there. We've had plenty of drama on these two bards for nearly two decades, and said drama should not have an influence over other aspects of FreeSpace modding. (Political Discussions is rather recent as a board but it's essentially a branch of GD.)

This is a community where people actually get the stuff done, unlike many other communities of fans who can do nothing but argue over somebody else's work. HLP is different, it has always been.

I admit I haven't ventured deeper into the issue that occurred on GD between Goober and other members (I tend to avoid GD, anyway) but I don't see why an issue over there should have major implications on the way the productive part of the website is managed. I'd rather have GD and PD locked or vastly limited in activity than watch stuff like this happen.

[Phantom Hoover]

Threats of legal action over posts in PolDisc can hardly be said to have "stayed in PolDisc". Goober has crossed multiple important lines here, and I think waiting two weeks to see if the other admins recognise that and are willing to take measures to restore confidence in site leadership is more than enough time to be called 'patient'.

[Axem]

I totally agree, and I'm going to do my best to make sure everyone on the forum gets this today.

[Mobius]

Threats of legal action over posts in PolDisc can hardly be said to have "stayed in PolDisc". Goober has crossed multiple important lines here, and I think waiting two weeks to see if the other admins recognise that and are willing to take measures to restore confidence in site leadership is more than enough time to be called 'patient'.

It doesn't change the fact that what you're proposing right at the beginning of this thread literally harms FreeSpace modding.

If you have an issue in GD/PD, limit your activity and replies over there, but don't involve FreeSpace modding in the process. As other community members have stated, HLP isn't a political discussion forum. This very website exists for a noble purpose that doesn't involve politics in any way.

[Aesaar]

The whole issue about Goober and the thread in question has been discussed quite a bit in the internal boards and we're just in the middle of crafting public statements to communicate what's been decided and what's going to change going forward.

I don't doubt you're trying, but this should have never been kept to the internal boards to begin with.  Why do only admin and moderator opinions count in this matter?

Well Phantom Hoover decided to make it public, not I.

Goober threw his tantrum in public, therefore he made it public.

[Grizzly]

It doesn't change the fact that what you're proposing right at the beginning of this thread literally harms FreeSpace modding.

Seperate the art from the artist: Goober's ability to govern a website has nothing to do with his modding abilities. Goober not having an admin role on a forum does not affect his ability to work on FSPort or to contribute to the SCP, just like Mjn.Mixael not being an admin doesn't affect his ability to work on the FSU or on BTA. Ofcourse, the former dragging the latter into court -like Gooby threatened to do- would totally affect FS2 modding, which is in part why there's a bunch of outrage about this.

[Mobius]

I don't think so. That'd be one less person managing boards, codes and permissions. One less person attempting to get the website back online in case of hacking or server issues, and so on...

[Nightmare]

It doesn't change the fact that what you're proposing right at the beginning of this thread literally harms FreeSpace modding.

Seperate the art from the artist: Goober's ability to govern a website has nothing to do with his modding abilities. Goober not having an admin role on a forum does not affect his ability to work on FSPort or to contribute to the SCP, just like Mjn.Mixael not being an admin doesn't affect his ability to work on the FSU or on BTA (although him being dragged into court for opinions by an admin of an internet forum would def. impact it).

This is correct, but that's a different thing between having talent at modding (elseway MJN would obv be admin) and doing technical stuff. Goober happens to be a programmer, what is necessary (to my understanding) to operate the forum as well as contributing to the SCP. Hence being Admin is not highest form of saying "you're the best dude EVA!!" or being popular, but that you can operate a forum technically; what Goob has been doing since... way before I came here first over 12 years ago.