Author Topic: The Nature of Vasuda Prime  (Read 7237 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Ace

  • Truth of Babel
  • 212
    • http://www.lordofrigel.com
Quote
Originally posted by StratComm
As for the composition of the atmosphere of Vasuda, I will say that the chances of Noble gasses existing in a planetary atmosphere of a rocky planet are not very high.  Basic physics: monatomic gasses have a much higher average velocity at any given temperature than diatomic gasses such as oxygen or nitrogen, and easily escape a planet's gravitational pull.  You get to gas giant (or maybe even star) magnitudes before you have a strong enough gravitational field to keep in a noble gas.  I saw that earlier and I can't resist saying something about it.


True, even my statements 'supporting' Vasuda Prime having more mass than Earth would not give it enough mass to sustain the nobel gasses needed. Also, if the gasses were constantly coming out of the planet to replenish the atmosphere, Vasuda Prime wouldn't be geologically dead. :)

More then anything, I was trying to say how despite having similar atmosphere requirements as organisms, the atmosphere on Vasuda Prime could still be very different.
Ace
Self-plagiarism is style.
-Alfred Hitchcock

 

Offline Eishtmo

  • The one and only
  • 29
  • The One and Only
    • http://www.angelfire.com/games2/fsarchive/index.html
Actually, I did try to find something on your idea Lightspeed.  I couldn't find anything that even mentioned a connection between the stability of the magnetic field and the moon.  Even so, the point seems pretty moot anyway.  Most of what I did find told me that my idea doesn't completely work either.  In the end, even without a magnetic field, a planet with a thick enough atmosphere (like ours or probably Vasuda's) wouldn't really be that affected by losing it in the first place.  The biggest problem I've found so far is that compasses wouldn't work.

As for staying with the idea that the planet is about the same mass as Earth, we don't really have anything that says it isn't.  The most we have is the atmospheric statement, and that's it.  I think we could explain the strength of a Vasudan as a result of their natural biology (last I looked, they are a touch bigger than us) rather than something directly connected to their planet's mass.

That said, I'm gonna stick with it, if for no other reason than we don't have any evidence to the contrary and it seems at least reasonable for now.  Of course, the magnetic stuff I just learned kind of throws a wrench in my original idea.  I've got a new idea (which, incendently, still makes the planet pretty damn old anyway), but I need to explore it a bit more.  It has to do with Vasuda Prime's position compared to Vasuda's habitation zone, the place where water can be maintained as a liquid.  That, coupled with exospheric evaporation (boiling off lighter elements, what StratComm was talking about) leads to Vasuda Prime still being old, and still gives us the natural enviromental change of the planet.

Oh yeah, I think Vasuda Prime does have a moon.  Assuming (a big one here) that a Vasudan hour is about ours, their day is at least 34 hours long, and that can only be caused by a: the star and b: a moon.  It has to do with why we only see one face of the moon (I can't remember the name at the moment).  Also provides proof for the planet's age.  Still, big assumption on the length of their hours.
Warpstorm  Bringing Disorder to Chaos, And Eventually We'll Get It Right.

---------

I know there is a method, but all I see is madness.

 

Offline Flaser

  • 210
  • man/fish warsie
Eisthmo their is a big flaw in your theory, and it is the fact that much of a planet's heat comes from the isotopes and volatile elements in its crust and core.

That's the reason why the age of the Earth was severly underestimated in the 19'th century, when they already had a grasp on basic thermodynamics and the size and weight of Earth, but not its actual composition or radio activity.

Actually there's no reason to think that any planet would have less of those, unless much of the matter comes from an already old and cool (ergo not so radioactive matter) body - like a comet from another lot older solar system.

If that was the case then the planet's core could cool down - the problem is that if that was the case the core would sip most of the heat from the crust and you have an iceplanet.

The whole water issue is more complex - to have surface water you need several things:
-The right temperature (Mars is believed to have a lot of water, but is too cold to support an ocean, so water is in aquafiers probably if there is water on Mars, Io is too hot)
-The right composition of elements so some chemical reaction won't consume the whole of it
-You're right: you need some vulcanic activity to press the water onto the surface, but that's not as important as the presence of steam - water in the atmosphere!
-Water won't leave the atmosphere that easly - however it's key component hydrogene may - so if the planet lost a considerable ammount hydrogene in its youth, you'd end up with less water - though the problem is that even later water can come from a variety of compunds even as a result of life

The composition of the atmosphere is a key question that can't be taken lightly - the ammount of greenhouse gases, as well as the ammount of CO2, O2, and water are very important - if Mars had a more heat conserving atmosphere we could have Martians visiting us.

The cosmic radiation as well as UV radiation doesn't evaporate too much. A sun produces heat in greater volumes, the problem with them is the high energy of the said particles - they lead to more frequent mutation and faster evolution - as well as a lot worse demographic statistics and deformities.

Those are my ideas, though I don't have a complete theory on how an actual desert planet could form - though even our very planet could end up likewise.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2003, 08:50:18 am by 997 »
"I was going to become a speed dealer. If one stupid fairytale turns out to be total nonsense, what does the young man do? If you answered, “Wake up and face reality,” you don’t remember what it was like being a young man. You just go to the next entry in the catalogue of lies you can use to destroy your life." - John Dolan

 

Offline Eishtmo

  • The one and only
  • 29
  • The One and Only
    • http://www.angelfire.com/games2/fsarchive/index.html
Uh, Flaser, I accounted for that.  There are only a limited amount of radioactive elements in the planet's core, and eventually, the bulk will no longer give up energy to heat the planet.  The planet's core will cool into a rock.

Though I am curious where you got the idea that the core would "suck heat" from the planet's surface.  The Earth puts heat out via vulcanism, the core is, in this way, constantly cooling.  Even with all the radioactivity going on, the rate of cooling is increasing.  The planet's climate, however, isn't caused by vulcanism in the long term (when the planet initially forms it is important, but not after a few billion years), it's caused by the sun and solar radiation.  Even if the core suddenly froze, the enviroment of the Earth wouldn't change too much as it is the sun that keeps us warm, not the Earth.

The early atmosphere of all planets is probably generally the same, CO2, water, various other gasses.  Water, in the form of water vapor, enters the atmosphere just like anything else.  Eventually, it will condense (assuming proper conditions) and fall to the surface as rain, eventually forming streams and oceans.  Which leads to life unless the planet isn't in just the right place.  When it's right, the planet looks like Earth, when it's wrong, it ends up like Venus or Mars.

Getting a Vasuda Prime, that's a lot harder.  You need to, somehow, remove water from the planet (assuming it starts with the same amount of internal water as Earth and such, which is reasonable).  The best way is to heat the planet up, and boil the water into the upper atmosphere where solar radiation breaks it up and blows it away.  The other way is to say the planet doesn't start with a lot of water in the first place, which is just as valid.

In any case, if the plant is still geologically active, with lots of volcaneos and the like, more water vapor will be introduced into the system, allowing the planet to reclaim what it loses.  Since maintaining the level doesn't make sense given the eventual result, a desert world.  So vulcanism must all but stop.  This means the core has cooled so much that the heat is no longer sufficant to even break through the thin crust.  The planet is dead, geologically speaking.

As for Mars, the reason it's not inhabited by Martians isn't because of it's amount of greenhouse gasses, it's atmosphere is something like 90% CO2, it's because the atmosphere is so damn thin!  The result of the planet being very small, and atmosphere blowing away in the solar wind.  The atmosphere needs to be thick, first and foremost, which means the planet must have a significant amount of gravity.  At a minimum, as I think we can all agree, Vasuda Prime is as large (mass wise) as Earth, perhaps bigger.

My idea makes Vasuda Prime both old enough for the planet to geologically die, and warm enough to become a dry, desert world.  All that has to happen is to wait.  The habitation zone around the star, where water is in a liquid state, moves outward as the star ages.  Any planet within said zone will, eventually, leave it, either by being eaten by the star in it's death throws, or simple via time.  I think Vasuda Prime, regardless of where exactly it sits, probably is nearing the exit point, or is there already.

This heats the planet, forcing the water to vaporize and be transported to the higher levels of the atmosphere where the stronger solar radiation can do it's work and boil it away.  The planet eventually begins to dry out.  The water cycle is broken, leaving only bits and pieces of a water table scattered about and an extremely salty ocean.  There is no rain, no percipatation of any kind.  Just a dry, desert world, a dying world on the edge of oblivian.

Sorry for misspellings, I've got a cold or something and am sleepy.  Later.
Warpstorm  Bringing Disorder to Chaos, And Eventually We'll Get It Right.

---------

I know there is a method, but all I see is madness.

 

Offline Solatar

  • 211
The Nature of Vasuda Prime
Just throwing it in here, but I think the Prometheus at least disproves he presence of argon on Vasuda, at least in any great amount. If there was an Earth like atmosphere, then the Prometheus could have still been in production.

Just a little detail....

 

Offline Sandwich

  • Got Screen?
  • 213
    • Minecraft
    • Skype
    • Steam
    • Twitter
    • Brainzipper
The Nature of Vasuda Prime
When y'all get around to whatever conclusion you arrive at, the Wiki awaits. :) Try the newly-christened "Stars and Planets" section. :nod:
SERIOUSLY...! | {The Sandvich Bar} - Rhino-FS2 Tutorial | CapShip Turret Upgrade | The Complete FS2 Ship List | System Background Package

"...The quintessential quality of our age is that of dreams coming true. Just think of it. For centuries we have dreamt of flying; recently we made that come true: we have always hankered for speed; now we have speeds greater than we can stand: we wanted to speak to far parts of the Earth; we can: we wanted to explore the sea bottom; we have: and so  on, and so on: and, too, we wanted the power to smash our enemies utterly; we have it. If we had truly wanted peace, we should have had that as well. But true peace has never been one of the genuine dreams - we have got little further than preaching against war in order to appease our consciences. The truly wishful dreams, the many-minded dreams are now irresistible - they become facts." - 'The Outward Urge' by John Wyndham

"The very essence of tolerance rests on the fact that we have to be intolerant of intolerance. Stretching right back to Kant, through the Frankfurt School and up to today, liberalism means that we can do anything we like as long as we don't hurt others. This means that if we are tolerant of others' intolerance - especially when that intolerance is a call for genocide - then all we are doing is allowing that intolerance to flourish, and allowing the violence that will spring from that intolerance to continue unabated." - Bren Carlill

 

Offline Eishtmo

  • The one and only
  • 29
  • The One and Only
    • http://www.angelfire.com/games2/fsarchive/index.html
The Nature of Vasuda Prime
I'd take part Sandwich, but I can't figure out how to sign on.  I'm sure I'm missing something stupid, but it's annoying nonetheless.

And no Solatar, the  Prometheus doesn't give us any information on Vasuda Prime.  Earth, itself, doesn't have much Argon in the atmosphere either (definetly not enough to mass produce such weapons).  Most (if not all) Argon likely came from gas mining Jupiter, as it would be more likely to retain nobel gases.  At the very least, it indicates that there are no really well developed gas giant mining operations taking place outside of Sol even after 32 years (which seems strange to me) or that there are few Jupiter sized gas giants (I'd have to look up some of this stuff on Argon, but I know it's very, very rare in our atmosphere and isn't even a signficant fraction of Jupiter's, which is probably why they never had the resources to continue manufacture).
Warpstorm  Bringing Disorder to Chaos, And Eventually We'll Get It Right.

---------

I know there is a method, but all I see is madness.

 

Offline karajorma

  • King Louie - Jungle VIP
  • Administrator
  • 214
    • Karajorma's Freespace FAQ
The Nature of Vasuda Prime
Earths atmosphere is about 1% argon actually.
Karajorma's Freespace FAQ. It's almost like asking me yourself.

[ Diaspora ] - [ Seeds Of Rebellion ] - [ Mind Games ]

 

Offline Flaser

  • 210
  • man/fish warsie
The Nature of Vasuda Prime
That's quite a lot - although IMHO there must be other sources of Argon - it may sound stupid, since it's noble gas, but Argon has some compounds IIRC.

The reason is that is already has a d-type electron shell which destabilises the element, more heavier elements Xenon or Radon are even more reactive.
"I was going to become a speed dealer. If one stupid fairytale turns out to be total nonsense, what does the young man do? If you answered, “Wake up and face reality,” you don’t remember what it was like being a young man. You just go to the next entry in the catalogue of lies you can use to destroy your life." - John Dolan

 

Offline karajorma

  • King Louie - Jungle VIP
  • Administrator
  • 214
    • Karajorma's Freespace FAQ
The Nature of Vasuda Prime
Argon is much harder to make react than xenon or radon as the electrons are more tightly held by the nucleus.

Krypton difluoride for instance is highly reactive and must be stored at low temperatures.

I don't ever remember hearing anything about compounds formed from argon when I was studying for my degree (Then again we only had one lecture about the nobel gasses since they're so boring!) but a web search for argon difluoride (the most logical choice for an argon compound) only turned up it's presence in argon/fluorine lasers (where it is the decomposition to argon and fluorine is what creates the laser)

When argon is needed for reactions (it makes a great inert atmosphere) it is made by distillation from air.

You are correct about xenon and radon reacting but I doubt that any of the compounds exist naturally *Checks inorganic chem text book* In fact compounds of any nobel gas were unknown until 1962.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2004, 12:48:48 pm by 340 »
Karajorma's Freespace FAQ. It's almost like asking me yourself.

[ Diaspora ] - [ Seeds Of Rebellion ] - [ Mind Games ]

 

Offline Flipside

  • əp!sd!l£
  • 212
The Nature of Vasuda Prime
My brain cells fused with organic Chemistry.

Looking at the pictures from the ANI, you could say that VP had a pretty thin atmosphere (no hazing at the terminator), but then, that's only an ANI ;)

 

Offline karajorma

  • King Louie - Jungle VIP
  • Administrator
  • 214
    • Karajorma's Freespace FAQ
The Nature of Vasuda Prime
Quote
Originally posted by Flipside
My brain cells fused with organic Chemistry.


This is inorganic though so you should be safe :p
Karajorma's Freespace FAQ. It's almost like asking me yourself.

[ Diaspora ] - [ Seeds Of Rebellion ] - [ Mind Games ]

 

Offline Flipside

  • əp!sd!l£
  • 212
The Nature of Vasuda Prime
hehehehe True, but my brain was never the same again about chemistry, as soon as someone starts talking about electron bonding it puts on a parachute and jumps ;)

 

Offline Sandwich

  • Got Screen?
  • 213
    • Minecraft
    • Skype
    • Steam
    • Twitter
    • Brainzipper
The Nature of Vasuda Prime
Quote
Originally posted by Eishtmo
I'd take part Sandwich, but I can't figure out how to sign on.  I'm sure I'm missing something stupid, but it's annoying nonetheless.


It needs to be a joined double-capital word, like SandWich, LtNarol, or MrEishtmo. ;)
SERIOUSLY...! | {The Sandvich Bar} - Rhino-FS2 Tutorial | CapShip Turret Upgrade | The Complete FS2 Ship List | System Background Package

"...The quintessential quality of our age is that of dreams coming true. Just think of it. For centuries we have dreamt of flying; recently we made that come true: we have always hankered for speed; now we have speeds greater than we can stand: we wanted to speak to far parts of the Earth; we can: we wanted to explore the sea bottom; we have: and so  on, and so on: and, too, we wanted the power to smash our enemies utterly; we have it. If we had truly wanted peace, we should have had that as well. But true peace has never been one of the genuine dreams - we have got little further than preaching against war in order to appease our consciences. The truly wishful dreams, the many-minded dreams are now irresistible - they become facts." - 'The Outward Urge' by John Wyndham

"The very essence of tolerance rests on the fact that we have to be intolerant of intolerance. Stretching right back to Kant, through the Frankfurt School and up to today, liberalism means that we can do anything we like as long as we don't hurt others. This means that if we are tolerant of others' intolerance - especially when that intolerance is a call for genocide - then all we are doing is allowing that intolerance to flourish, and allowing the violence that will spring from that intolerance to continue unabated." - Bren Carlill

 

Offline Stealth

  • Braiiins...
  • 211
The Nature of Vasuda Prime
... are you kidding me?

why the fook would you do that? :p :D

 

Offline Sandwich

  • Got Screen?
  • 213
    • Minecraft
    • Skype
    • Steam
    • Twitter
    • Brainzipper
The Nature of Vasuda Prime
Quote
Originally posted by Stealth
... are you kidding me?

why the fook would you do that? :p :D
:wtf:

[q]You may sign in using any WikiWord as a UserId. (ÀñíçéàÖãæôßøü etc. may be used too). The UserId will be used as a link in RecentChanges to your UserId page, your HomePage. New users may use an empty password.[/q]
SERIOUSLY...! | {The Sandvich Bar} - Rhino-FS2 Tutorial | CapShip Turret Upgrade | The Complete FS2 Ship List | System Background Package

"...The quintessential quality of our age is that of dreams coming true. Just think of it. For centuries we have dreamt of flying; recently we made that come true: we have always hankered for speed; now we have speeds greater than we can stand: we wanted to speak to far parts of the Earth; we can: we wanted to explore the sea bottom; we have: and so  on, and so on: and, too, we wanted the power to smash our enemies utterly; we have it. If we had truly wanted peace, we should have had that as well. But true peace has never been one of the genuine dreams - we have got little further than preaching against war in order to appease our consciences. The truly wishful dreams, the many-minded dreams are now irresistible - they become facts." - 'The Outward Urge' by John Wyndham

"The very essence of tolerance rests on the fact that we have to be intolerant of intolerance. Stretching right back to Kant, through the Frankfurt School and up to today, liberalism means that we can do anything we like as long as we don't hurt others. This means that if we are tolerant of others' intolerance - especially when that intolerance is a call for genocide - then all we are doing is allowing that intolerance to flourish, and allowing the violence that will spring from that intolerance to continue unabated." - Bren Carlill

 

Offline Eishtmo

  • The one and only
  • 29
  • The One and Only
    • http://www.angelfire.com/games2/fsarchive/index.html
The Nature of Vasuda Prime
That is weird Sandwich.  I'll try it though.  Thanks.
Warpstorm  Bringing Disorder to Chaos, And Eventually We'll Get It Right.

---------

I know there is a method, but all I see is madness.

 

Offline jdjtcagle

  • 211
  • Already told you people too much!
The Nature of Vasuda Prime
:nervous:
"Brings a tear of nostalgia to my eye" -Flipside
------------------------------------------
I'm an Apostolic Christian (Acts: 2:38)
------------------------------------------
Official Interplay Freespace Stories
Predator
Hammer Of Light - Omen of Darkness
Freefall in Darkness
A Thousand Years

 

Offline Sandwich

  • Got Screen?
  • 213
    • Minecraft
    • Skype
    • Steam
    • Twitter
    • Brainzipper
The Nature of Vasuda Prime
Quote
Originally posted by jdjtcagle
:nervous:


I know it's been less than a month since the last post here, but if you had to bump this, could you not have bumpped it with something a bit more, errr, how shall I put this?


MEANINGFUL!


:rolleyes: :lol:
SERIOUSLY...! | {The Sandvich Bar} - Rhino-FS2 Tutorial | CapShip Turret Upgrade | The Complete FS2 Ship List | System Background Package

"...The quintessential quality of our age is that of dreams coming true. Just think of it. For centuries we have dreamt of flying; recently we made that come true: we have always hankered for speed; now we have speeds greater than we can stand: we wanted to speak to far parts of the Earth; we can: we wanted to explore the sea bottom; we have: and so  on, and so on: and, too, we wanted the power to smash our enemies utterly; we have it. If we had truly wanted peace, we should have had that as well. But true peace has never been one of the genuine dreams - we have got little further than preaching against war in order to appease our consciences. The truly wishful dreams, the many-minded dreams are now irresistible - they become facts." - 'The Outward Urge' by John Wyndham

"The very essence of tolerance rests on the fact that we have to be intolerant of intolerance. Stretching right back to Kant, through the Frankfurt School and up to today, liberalism means that we can do anything we like as long as we don't hurt others. This means that if we are tolerant of others' intolerance - especially when that intolerance is a call for genocide - then all we are doing is allowing that intolerance to flourish, and allowing the violence that will spring from that intolerance to continue unabated." - Bren Carlill

 

Offline Eishtmo

  • The one and only
  • 29
  • The One and Only
    • http://www.angelfire.com/games2/fsarchive/index.html
The Nature of Vasuda Prime
Sorry, but I've basically said everything I can think to say.

Besides, I got into Wiki.  Did you notice?
Warpstorm  Bringing Disorder to Chaos, And Eventually We'll Get It Right.

---------

I know there is a method, but all I see is madness.