[Lorric]

Imagine the juggernauts being torn apart by a large fleet of ships that are each a substantial upgrade on the Hades, born out of the GTI's xenophobia in preparation for a potential Shivan return.

[Assassin714]

Imagine the juggernauts being torn apart by a large fleet of ships that are each a substantial upgrade on the Hades, born out of the GTI's xenophobia in preparation for a potential Shivan return.

Then the Shivans send in a bunch of ships that are even bigger and more powerful.

[Nightmare]

Imagine the juggernauts being torn apart by a large fleet of ships that are each a substantial upgrade on the Hades, born out of the GTI's xenophobia in preparation for a potential Shivan return.

The summary of FS2s setting was pretty much "Terrans and Vasudans managed to rebuild their civilisations". Following X or Y ideology doesnt give you technology and industrial capacity at will. At a very best scenario, the implosion of GTA (and its economic standstill) could have been avoided and Terran-Vasudan civilisation would have started to synergize on both political and economic levels in a highly directed way at an earlier point (right from 2335 instead 2345, though the date is not exactly clear) under very different presigns. That might give you, at the very, very best a few years (~3 years would be +10% addontional growth) ahead on industry output. It might be enough to kill a 2nd or 3rd Sath, what says pretty much all.

[Grizzly]

Imagine the juggernauts being torn apart by a large fleet of ships that are each a substantial upgrade on the Hades, born out of the GTI's xenophobia in preparation for a potential Shivan return.

How would the GTI be more effective at building their Hades-descendents then the GTVA? The GTVA was also preparing for the Shivan's return, that's why they build the Colossus, the meson bombs, and the GTVA itself.

There's also a distinct undercurrent through Silent Threat and FS2 that indicates that the rogue GTI didn't see the shivans as a threat to be defeated, but as a tool to enhance their own power: They were aware and experimenting with Shivan tech before Ross 128, and the research that Bosch uncovered revolved around being able to talk to the Shivans. The rogue GTI was focused on defeating the Vasudans at any cost, an attitude that's mirrored in Bosch.

[Lorric]

It was Mito's post that made me post that. My main prediction is that they'd blow the knossos, so the confrontation with the jugs wouldn't even happen. But I don't think they'd go full on into building a large fleet of ships that are upgrades on the Hades, though I do think they'd probably produce a better Hades and build additional Hades vessels.

To imagine the extreme end of Mito's post, perhaps enslaving the Vasudan race and putting them to work would get the job done. They'd also have to go digging around in the knossos like the GTVA did. The jugs came one by one, so they could destroy them that way. Even without a fleet of super ships, if they built a number of Hades class ships, they could destroy the jugs by taking up position at the sides of the knossos, away from the four beams of red death, and tear the jugs apart one by one as they came through into our space.

Yes, they might get greedy and explore the portal, but they'd already gathered their Shivan stuff to experiment with, and with their research base safe, they'd have had years with the Shivan tech. I think with the fact that they weren't at all interested in exploring the possibility of peaceful coexistence with a race they'd worked together with very well, they'd take no chances with a completely hostile race that almost killed us all, and blow the knossos.

[Grizzly]

To imagine the extreme end of Mito's post, perhaps enslaving the Vasudan race and putting them to work would get the job done.

What makes you think that that would be more effective then the Vasudans fully contributing of their own volition, like they do in the GTVA?

[Colonol Dekker]

They managed to build a hades in a fraction of the time it took to build a colossus.  Also,  the axis in ww2 were a teeny bit xenophobic but managed a heck of a lot of military industry.


Give the GTI the whole terran industrial base and research capability (we managed to crack subspace without the zods) and they might be OK.


(When I say we, I mean humans, not space radicals)

[Grizzly]

Also,  the axis in ww2 were a teeny bit xenophobic but managed a heck of a lot of military industry.

Actually no. The Axis had significantly less military industry then  you'd expect them to have. Goebbels held his infamous Total War speech in 1943 but Nazi Germany didn't actually move to Total War footing until mid-1944 (and then it did so poorly). Whilst the Allies and the Comintern were enlisting their entire civilian population into wartime production from 1940 or 1941, the axis waited, and even when total war protocols were put in place they preferred using forced labour over their own civilian population, which caused a lot of problems: Nazi wartime production was notoriouisly poor quality in 1944, with stuff like landing gear systems, gearboxes or V1 guidance systems being either poorly constructed or outright sabotaged.

[Lorric]

To imagine the extreme end of Mito's post, perhaps enslaving the Vasudan race and putting them to work would get the job done.

What makes you think that that would be more effective then the Vasudans fully contributing of their own volition, like they do in the GTVA?

Well you wouldn't have to worry about pesky things like the Vasudans doing what they wanted and living their own lives, having to pay them or labour laws.

[Grizzly]

Well you wouldn't have to worry about pesky things like the Vasudans doing what they wanted and living their own lives, having to pay them or labour laws.

Instead you have to worry about keeping your slave population in line, and you can't give them any of the important jobs (like, say, warship construction) since they have a vested interest in not contributing to the tools you're using to opress them.

[Nightmare]

To imagine the extreme end of Mito's post, perhaps enslaving the Vasudan race and putting them to work would get the job done.

Part of the reason why the Gulag was massively scaled down in the 1950s was that with increasing industrialisation and mechanisation, large scale deployment of unskilled human labor became less profitable and hence less relevant. I doubt that would do anything - even if the Zods would be forced to Terraform a planet with bare hands, what would it aid to a war against Shivans? Nothing.

[0rph3u5]

The absolute pivot would be to strip the Vasudans of their space-Navy. After that, they'd be at the mercy of the GTA (assuming that GTI would not face a Terran civil war at the same time), and no longer able to fight back efficiently.
[...]
As above, whether the Terrans sit in orbit, occupy keypositions, implement a puppet government or capture the entire local government (colony) may not even matter in the end due to the global balance of power. As such, dealing with radicals would be the problem of the local (likey Vasudan) government.

The question is if the occupation by orbital blockade would be sustainable on basic level - A fleet orbiting a planet still would need to be supplied from somewhere; if you are deliberatly cut yourself off from the planet your are orbiting a source of supply to avoid sabotage (and that's assuming that the planet can supply your fleet) you need a supply train from a safe port. The longer that supply chain get the more vurnable your blockade is to disruption - be it by attack, sabotage or just run of the mill frictions.


Another problem besides the logistical challenge is detecting an breach of enforced disarmament from orbit. While you can employ satelitte surveillance that doesn't free your from on the ground verification, unless you're willing to bomb every bag of rice falling over. Which reduced the incentive your blockaded planet to comply.

[Nightmare]

The question is if the occupation by orbital blockade would be sustainable on basic level - A fleet orbiting a planet still would need to be supplied from somewhere; if you are deliberatly cut yourself off from the planet your are orbiting a source of supply to avoid sabotage (and that's assuming that the planet can supply your fleet) you need a supply train from a safe port. The longer that supply chain get the more vurnable your blockade is to disruption - be it by attack, sabotage or just run of the mill frictions.

There's no canon evidence that loosing Sol rendered the exiled forces inoperational in the short run. Cooperation had started not long ago so even if they had prioritized Terran needs over their own (which seems pretty unlikely to me) so that may have happened later on but atleast for the time of the rebellion it should've worked.

Another problem besides the logistical challenge is detecting an breach of enforced disarmament from orbit. While you can employ satelitte surveillance that doesn't free your from on the ground verification, unless you're willing to bomb every bag of rice falling over. Which reduced the incentive your blockaded planet to comply.

The point is: you don't even need to. As long as your Zod-puppet government complies (bc, you have for example the power to unplug all of their economy and electronics by cutting the energy supply) you can leave virtually all planetary-side duties to them, which then would use its own institutions to maintain order among the Zods. Who is supposed to supply them, anyway? Terrans? Not entirely impossible but pretty much all they'd get would be pistols pointed at spaceships.

They managed to build a hades in a fraction of the time it took to build a colossus.

Likely in less time simply bc it is much smaller. Also, the Hades was likely under construction by the entirety of GTA (with Sol) for years before the Great War. Ofc they could've come up with different designs like the Iceni or something like the Golgatha from BWO but it would not surprise me if they'd build something Colossus-like to show how stong the Terrans are. But regardless of what they do they could bump their kill record to 2-5/80-90 Saths at best; not enough to stop the Shivans anyway.

----

Random theory time: when we're already talking about tactical stuff, my idea is that while Colly was meant to fight Lucys, I could imagine the Meson Bomb being a backup for "whatever the Shivans have besides that".

[Grizzly]

Honestly i just think that the desire to see big booms is what binds sentient life together.

Part of the reason why the Gulag was massively scaled down in the 1950s was that with increasing industrialisation and mechanisation, large scale deployment of unskilled human labor became less profitable and hence less relevant. I doubt that would do anything - even if the Zods would be forced to Terraform a planet with bare hands, what would it aid to a war against Shivans? Nothing.

It's notable that we do have a few states that field extensive amounts of forced labour today. In the US, Federal Prison Industries employs 60% of the US's federal prison population (which is mandatory - you only don't work there if you can't). It should as such be noted that when it was contracted to build combat helmets, they weren't up to snuff.

The point is: you don't even need to. As long as your Zod-puppet government complies (bc, you have for example the power to unplug all of their economy and electronics by cutting the energy supply) you can leave virtually all planetary-side duties to them, which then would use its own institutions to maintain order among the Zods. Who is supposed to supply them, anyway? Terrans? Not entirely impossible but pretty much all they'd get would be pistols pointed at spaceships.

Notable that this has worked quite well historically too. When the Spanish subjegated the Aztecs they kept almost all political structures intact: There were still city states, there were still rulers of said city states (often the same ones or family members of the deposed Emperor of Tenochtitlan), it's just that they answered to a different emperor now. Puppet governments in general do seem to work well throughout all the centuries I am aware of.

[Lorric]

Well you wouldn't have to worry about pesky things like the Vasudans doing what they wanted and living their own lives, having to pay them or labour laws.

Instead you have to worry about keeping your slave population in line, and you can't give them any of the important jobs (like, say, warship construction) since they have a vested interest in not contributing to the tools you're using to opress them.

Wouldn't be too hard to keep them in line when you can just start carving a planet like a cake with the Hades if they get out of line. Sabotage a ship? A city gets wiped off the map.

[Colonol Dekker]

That leads to extremist radicalism.   Nothing to lose mentality, because there will always be a few wonky nails in the toolbox.

[Lorric]

That leads to extremist radicalism.   Nothing to lose mentality, because there will always be a few wonky nails in the toolbox.

You'd be able to tell the difference between such normalcy and sabotage though, surely?

Besides, you don't have to have the Vasudans doing such things, though you'd want to take advantage of their skilled personnel if possible. Instead, it could be like every great empire in ancient times, with slaves doing menial work to free up the Empire to be doing other things.

[Grizzly]

Wouldn't be too hard to keep them in line when you can just start carving a planet like a cake with the Hades if they get out of line. Sabotage a ship? A city gets wiped off the map.

Once again I have to point you towards the Nazi's practices of forced labour and why they didn't work. In essence, you are already illustrating the issues with your own point here: You now have to employ military force in order to keep the slave population in line. That's a pretty big military investment, made bigger by the fact that you're now killing your own workforce. A workforce that, in the GTVA, contributed to all aspects of the military. This harkens back to my original point: When you're at the point that you're bombing cities to keep the population in line, you don't have an effecient military force - or at least, one more effecient then the GTVA.

You'd be able to tell the difference between such normalcy and sabotage though, surely?

See above. The Nazis often weren't able to tell, needed a lot of people to make sure that they could tell, and had less and less people to do that as the war progressed (since those people were needed at the front).

Let me ask you a very simple question.
Who do you think is going to work harder?

• A person making military equipment for an army that their family members or children or spouse are in
• A person making military equipment for an army that killed their family members, children or spouse

The former was practiced by the Allies, the later by the Fascists. You can take exactly one guess on which side had more effecient military production. And yes, I'm aware that I've been criticized for using an example from the past to extrapolate 300 years in the future, but I darely say that my examples are more recent then...

Besides, you don't have to have the Vasudans doing such things, though you'd want to take advantage of their skilled personnel if possible. Instead, it could be like every great empire in ancient times, with slaves doing menial work to free up the Empire to be doing other things.

... this thing right here.

So, first of all, we don't live in ancient times anymore. Menial tasks have been replaced with machines, and we can except this trend to continue in the coming centuries. You can see this trend in forced labour today as well: The United States employs roughly 800,000 forced labourers, not 150 million. Most modern legal frameworks that exploit labour are far less overt then this. The Kafala system in the Gulf states springs to mind as the most well known example, with the usage of an Exit Visa system (ie "You can't leave unless we allow it"), which has been marked by human rights watch as effectively forced labour. But there's a big difference between these systems and what you're proposing: The US's forced labour population comitted crimes and is less then 1% of the population. The gulf states's forced labour involves people from all over the world who ultimately choose to be there, and the gulf states have been forced to change the system under threat of revolt.

There's arguably less of a reason to even talk about ancient states, as ancient states used slave labour for things that are now done by machines. But let's do it anyway!

First of all, we should probably acknowledge that even the Roman Empire, that really started putting the whole "enslaving entire populations" into practice in the first century, never had a relative slave population in Italy that exceeded 30%. And here too, the slave population came from all over the empire, and even Rome's subjegated peoples (and even slaves) had some form of social mobility. Even then, slave revolts were a concern.

None of this is present when you propose enslaving the entirety of the vasudan race. There's three problems here:

• Roughly half of your population is now enslaved (unless you start massacring them, but then you'd already have a smaller workforce then the GTVA baseline)
• Everyone you have enslaved has a common langauge and heritage, making it easier for them to unite
• Since the slavery is tied to being a vasudan, the vasudans have nothing to lose but their chains

All of these make the system ripe for a revolt. The only system in ancient times that is close to this is the Spartan system of Helotry, but the spartan system of helotry came at a huge cost: The entire social structure had to be reformed in order to supress slave rebellions. The purpose of the army was to kill slaves. Armies were trained by killing slaves. Gaining power in Sparta under the helotry system just meant that you had more slaves to kill, and your responsibilities revolved around killing slaves. Which brings me back to the point I made all the way at the top of the first post: If you're busy supressing slaves, you're not building an effective countermeasure to the Shivans, something that the entire GTVA revolved around.
And yes, the Spartans are praised as a effective military force, but this is very much a case of the popular imagination not aligning with historical reality.

The only way to make this system sustainable (if it even can be implemented because although the rogue GTI faction may have won in our scenario, they don't exactly control the conscience of all mankind) is for the vasudan population to be massively reduced (again, less effecient), or for the Terran population to be reunited with earth.

Which, as you may know from having played FS2, needs the Knossos portal to be found and stay open, thus inviting the Shivans.

There is simply no scenario in which the GTI could subjegate the Vasudan population and be more effecient at shivan killing then the GTVA.

[Lorric]

I’m going to let you know that I don’t want this to mushroom into something huge, branching off all over the place and I wasn’t sure if I wanted to respond after your post if we’re going to wade into such deeper waters on this, but I will respond and see where this goes, but I make no guarantees on further participation. I’ve left some things out, particularly on the Kafala System that I’d otherwise mention as I don’t want tons of tangents.

If we’re going to dive this deep, there are certain things we don’t know to prove this either way. How would the Vasudans respond to being enslaved? Would they be more or less malleable than typical human slaves? Could be anything from accepting it meekly to mass ritual suicide rather than be enslaved. If they can be enslaved what would be the best use for such slaves in the GTI’s World?

I think you’ve made strong points, and the PVN would have to be crushed to ensure GTI dominance, and no doubt some more of the GTA as well, resources and personnel which would still be around to fight Shivans in the GTVA timeline. Not nearly all of it of course, people would die or retire and ships would be put out to pasture, but plenty of that hardware was still in service when the Shivans came calling, and the newer Vasudan advancements probably wouldn’t happen.

But GTI advancements were also lost in the GTVA timeline in the fire of war. The Hades completely outclasses anything outside the Colossus built by the GTVA. The research that the GTI did, and the time they’d have free to do much more, with exponentially greater resources than they had for their clandestine operation skulking around in the shadows doing all this. Now they’d be able to do it in the open with the resources of a space empire behind them. Even with the disadvantages of not having the co-operation and manpower of a united GTVA, this could be enough, more than enough, under the right set of circumstances. And we only need the right set of circumstances for this exercise.

For your question, minute for minute, I think the willing worker is the more productive worker. But the willing worker working a normal work week would be outstripped by the slave worker working dawn to dusk 24/7. Before you even get to the reduced costs of said workers.

The nazis are an interesting example in that they had superior military technology and inferior many other things. They went a long way with that superior technology, they would have flattened any other European nation in a one on one confrontation. They were able to defeat the combined power of multiple allied nations.

There are still plenty of menial tasks to be done today, and I’m sure there’d be plenty in the future too. And slaves could potentially do certain jobs cheaper than machines.

There’s a lot of things that could go wrong for the GTI, and I certainly think if you were betting on the outcome, odds are the GTVA would have been in a better position to confront the Shivans when they came than the GTI would be. But I also think it’s very possible they could have done a better job under certain conditions by pushing their technology forward, even with a considerably smaller military force than the GTVA, due to advanced technology.

[Grizzly]

So I'm gonna reply a bunch more later but I just wanted to head this off:

The nazis are an interesting example in that they had superior military technology and inferior many other things. They went a long way with that superior technology, they would have flattened any other European nation in a one on one confrontation. They were able to defeat the combined power of multiple allied nations.

The Nazis didn't have superiour technology compared to allied nations. During the fall of France, French tanks were superiour to German tanks. The T-34 was superiour to the Panzer 3 and 4 to the point that Nazi doctrine called for a 5 to 1 engagement. What decided those massive early gains is numbers advantage and surprise. The Nazis outnumbered the Soviets 2 to 1 in 1941, as a fully mobilized army faced one that was not at all prepared for war. Their victory in France early in the war was mostly down to luck due to the french commander in chief being a moron - and the Nazis had superiour numbers in france too, with their army alone being larger then the french and british armies combined.

The Nazis had some technologically advanced things that outmatched their allies with respect to technology, like the Me262 fighter, but it should be noted that those kind of "Nazi Superweapons" were extremely expensive projects in a desperate attempt to find some advantage over the allies, whilst the Allies were able to field more technological advancements across the board. Case in point: The allied armies involved in the invasion of normandy were fully motorized, whilst the Nazis were still reliant on horse and wagon for their logistics.

Kinda wanted to state that before anything else because the whole "Superiour nazi technology" is a neo-nazi myth that entered the popular consciousness during the cold war.