[Fury]

You mean plot armor?

Basically yes. Almost all BP2 missions use "plot armor" or more precisely, armor types. This allows fredders tighter control over how they want a mission to play at any given time. IIRC even player is given "plot armor" sometimes and you don't necessarily even notice it.

Wut?

I meant exactly what I said. The ships you see in a BP2 mission do not necessarily perform like they would if you place them to a new mission.

[Jeff Vader]

Haha. You guys are really using Collateral Damage as an example here? These Serkr corvettes in this mission had armor that reduced damage taken by 60% and those gunships and bombers had armor that increased damage by 50% to both shields and hull.

You mean plot armor?

Plottanium?

[Crybertrance]

Haha. You guys are really using Collateral Damage as an example here? These Serkr corvettes in this mission had armor that reduced damage taken by 60% and those gunships and bombers had armor that increased damage by 50% to both shields and hull.

You mean plot armor?

Plottanium?

I would be nice to have a type of armor (in the real world) that changes its characteristics to deflect or absorb damage according to the will of those higher up... 

[qwadtep]

On all the talk about capship shields above, an interesting thing I've noticed:

It should be noted that the Lucifer was completely to anything the GTA/PVE/GTVA had, except beam cannons could penetrate them in "normal space".

The Lucifer's shields were also easily penetrated by bombs and normal weapon fire by both the Vishnans and the Orestes battlegroup in AoA; indeed, the only reason plotwise that the Orestes didn't win outright is that the Lucifer kept jumping away to repair. GTVA technology is simply better in BP and I'd assume that Sol's is as well.

[-Norbert-]

But that Lucifer also had it's SReds replaced with HRed and it could fire LReds from the sides on top of that.
The most common fan-theory is that the Lucy switched off it's shields and redirected the energy into the weapon systems, since the shields didn't help against the beams, which are by far the most damaging weapon the GTVA had.

I meant exactly what I said. The ships you see in a BP2 mission do not necessarily perform like they would if you place them to a new mission.

And where even that isn't enough, they make specific subsystems invulnerable to make sure the mission plays out as it's supposed to be (parade examples are that single beam turret of the Carthage, that splashes the AWACS or the Imperieus front beams in Delenda Est).

[Crybertrance]

And where even that isn't enough, they make specific subsystems invulnerable to make sure the mission plays out as it's supposed to be (parade examples are that single beam turret of the Carthage, that splashes the AWACS or the Imperieus front beams in Delenda Est).

  And I spent nearly 2-3 hours trying to destroy those front BEAMZ!!!!

This is SOOO Cheating....

[KyadCK]

And where even that isn't enough, they make specific subsystems invulnerable to make sure the mission plays out as it's supposed to be (parade examples are that single beam turret of the Carthage, that splashes the AWACS or the Imperieus front beams in Delenda Est).

  And I spent nearly 2-3 hours trying to destroy those front BEAMZ!!!!

This is SOOO Cheating....

If I recall correctly, you can blame one of the beta testers for this. But then, would you rather have cheating FREDers, or a missions that can easily become unbeatable because you killed something you shouldn't have?

[Crybertrance]

And where even that isn't enough, they make specific subsystems invulnerable to make sure the mission plays out as it's supposed to be (parade examples are that single beam turret of the Carthage, that splashes the AWACS or the Imperieus front beams in Delenda Est).

  And I spent nearly 2-3 hours trying to destroy those front BEAMZ!!!!

This is SOOO Cheating....

If I recall correctly, you can blame one of the beta testers for this. But then, would you rather have cheating FREDers, or a missions that can easily become unbeatable because you killed something you shouldn't have?

But then there should have been a directive to "Leave all the ****z behind and ONLY cover the Indus". You know, cause since there is no VA, and during that scene someone (I guess Laporte herself) says "We should disable the front beams of the Imperieuse " or something like that. So naturally I thot you were supposed to do that. I know the next line by Simms or someone was "no itz to risky" (or something like that) but I only found that out after the above-mentioned 2-3 hours

[KyadCK]

And where even that isn't enough, they make specific subsystems invulnerable to make sure the mission plays out as it's supposed to be (parade examples are that single beam turret of the Carthage, that splashes the AWACS or the Imperieus front beams in Delenda Est).

  And I spent nearly 2-3 hours trying to destroy those front BEAMZ!!!!

This is SOOO Cheating....

If I recall correctly, you can blame one of the beta testers for this. But then, would you rather have cheating FREDers, or a missions that can easily become unbeatable because you killed something you shouldn't have?

But then there should have been a directive to "Leave all the ****z behind and ONLY cover the Indus". You know, cause since there is no VA, and during that scene someone (I guess Laporte herself) says "We should disable the front beams of the Imperieuse " or something like that. So naturally I thot you were supposed to do that. I know the next line by Simms or someone was "no itz to risky" (or something like that) but I only found that out after the above-mentioned 2-3 hours

And risk the player being stupid and going after the destroyer anyway, or just cover their tracks to begin with. It's not a hard choice, the FREDers did the right thing.

[MatthTheGeek]

Don't blame the FREDers for you lack of attention during dialogs, please. If FREDers want a mission to happen a certain way, it's their job to make sure it happens.

If u no like it, don't u play it.

[Drogoth]

Haha. You guys are really using Collateral Damage as an example here? These Serkr corvettes in this mission had armor that reduced damage taken by 60% and those gunships and bombers had armor that increased damage by 50% to both shields and hull.

In BP missions things play out however fredders feel like they should play out, regardless of tabled ship and weapon default stats.

Anything that happens in a mission is by definition, BP canon. I don't care if the Fredders gave Serkr gods own wrath to use at their disposal, if they did it, Serkr has it.

So the ships were re tabled to make sure the mission plays out as planned. Well that plan was as follows: "some durgas and uriel's get their asses kicked by three elite corvettes". As such, it is canon, and reliable, to assume that Serkr is a meter stick to measure the Durga's performance against.

The only valid argument for saying Collateral Damage isn't an accurate measure is noting that that the Durgas were using jackhammers and not sledgehammers. Even if they had been though... point defense was tearing them a new asshole. It doesnt matter if Fredder tricks were doing it, the canon message is: Serkr's point defense > Durgas

[Crybertrance]

Don't blame the FREDers for you lack of attention during dialogs, please. If FREDers want a mission to happen a certain way, it's their job to make sure it happens.

If u no like it, don't u play it.

Oh I like it VERY much. Its just a teensy inconvinience to constantly read messages during the heat of combat. Anyways, it will be easily rectified when VA is added. 

[-Norbert-]

Anything that happens in a mission is by definition, BP canon. I don't care if the Fredders gave Serkr gods own wrath to use at their disposal, if they did it, Serkr has it.

So the ships were re tabled to make sure the mission plays out as planned. Well that plan was as follows: "some durgas and uriel's get their asses kicked by three elite corvettes". As such, it is canon, and reliable, to assume that Serkr is a meter stick to measure the Durga's performance against.

The only valid argument for saying Collateral Damage isn't an accurate measure is noting that that the Durgas were using jackhammers and not sledgehammers. Even if they had been though... point defense was tearing them a new asshole. It doesnt matter if Fredder tricks were doing it, the canon message is: Serkr's point defense > Durgas

So you are saying because the Imperieuse and the Carthage had invulnerable beamturrets in one mission, they must always be invulnerable no matter what? Same for the Hoods engines, or the overcharged Deimos beams in Delenda Est.
In the mission with the Elder assasination, there was also one invulnerable Gef Scimitar...
See the problem with your argument?

[Drogoth]

Anything that happens in a mission is by definition, BP canon. I don't care if the Fredders gave Serkr gods own wrath to use at their disposal, if they did it, Serkr has it.

So the ships were re tabled to make sure the mission plays out as planned. Well that plan was as follows: "some durgas and uriel's get their asses kicked by three elite corvettes". As such, it is canon, and reliable, to assume that Serkr is a meter stick to measure the Durga's performance against.

The only valid argument for saying Collateral Damage isn't an accurate measure is noting that that the Durgas were using jackhammers and not sledgehammers. Even if they had been though... point defense was tearing them a new asshole. It doesnt matter if Fredder tricks were doing it, the canon message is: Serkr's point defense > Durgas

So you are saying because the Imperieuse and the Carthage had invulnerable beamturrets in one mission, they must always be invulnerable no matter what? Same for the Hoods engines, or the overcharged Deimos beams in Delenda Est.
In the mission with the Elder assasination, there was also one invulnerable Gef Scimitar...
See the problem with your argument?

You're failing to understand my argument. My argument isn't that 'canonically some things are invulnerable' its that canon says three corvettes point defense can hold off some durgas.

Edit-

The first line of my first post was poorly phrased, it was late and I was tired. It was more to illustrate that fancy tricks by Fredders dont change the intent of the story, which is itself the source of canon

[-Norbert-]

But Serkr aren't just any corvettes. They are Steeles elite hunting dogs. They are crewed by the best men Steele has under his command (except maybe for the crew of the Atreus) and it's quite possible that, just like the Atreus, they come equiped with better technology than the "ranks and file" ships. Judging from the time they stayed on the field of battle in their first appearance, I'm pretty sure they have sprint drives.

And we also don't know how experienced those gunships and bombers were. For all we know they could have been the same as Neomis first wing, a bunch of rookies lead by a single experienced pilot.

[crizza]

That's exactly the point Drogoth was making Norbert.

[MatthTheGeek]

Serkr are elite-crewed Sathanas hunter-killers. They most likely know better how to operate their ships at optimal capacity than most other corvette crews. That is materialized ingame by superior AI class.

That said, about Serkr, I point you to Collateral Damage's debriefing :

Serkr is a specially fitted combat team using sprint jump drives, sophisticated active armor, and modified weapons.

Moreover, Collateral's mission file shows that the Pilum and the Hydra are both equipped with 4 heavy flak turrets, which is a non-standard loadout.

[Aesaar]

But Serkr aren't just any corvettes. They are Steeles elite hunting dogs. They are crewed by the best men Steele has under his command (except maybe for the crew of the Atreus) and it's quite possible that, just like the Atreus, they come equiped with better technology than the "ranks and file" ships. Judging from the time they stayed on the field of battle in their first appearance, I'm pretty sure they have sprint drives.

And we also don't know how experienced those gunships and bombers were. For all we know they could have been the same as Neomis first wing, a bunch of rookies lead by a single experienced pilot.

I entirely agree with your first point, but not about the pilots.  While the Federation is experiencing a pilot shortage, they've still got quite a few good pilots, and I really doubt they'd put rookie pilots in some of their few heavy bombers and gunships.  They're running out of Uriels, and I'd bet Durga supplies aren't doing much better, so it makes no sense to put a rookie pilot in one and get it destroyed in his first sortie.

[Drogoth]

But Serkr aren't just any corvettes. They are Steeles elite hunting dogs. They are crewed by the best men Steele has under his command (except maybe for the crew of the Atreus) and it's quite possible that, just like the Atreus, they come equiped with better technology than the "ranks and file" ships. Judging from the time they stayed on the field of battle in their first appearance, I'm pretty sure they have sprint drives.

And we also don't know how experienced those gunships and bombers were. For all we know they could have been the same as Neomis first wing, a bunch of rookies lead by a single experienced pilot.

Point 1) All I said was that we can use Serkr as a canon source to use as a meterstick for the Durga's performance. The two durgas and some Uriels go in unsupported and get shredded. As such, we can estimate based on a straight up fight between the two sides, the kind of firepower the Durga can take and what it can't. It's the only IN MISSION bp canon we have to measure that (Aristeia, the Medea was already under fire and engaged against other forces - allthough I happen to think the Durgas would win that fight handily anyways)

Point 2) Unlikely. Durgas are precious resources. Maybe the security council crewed the Collossus with cadets and that's why it got destroyed. We'll never know. I think it got destroyed because the Sathanas was a superior war machine. I think we kind of have to assume that all crews will be operating their ships at at least 90% combat capacity, or else any argument would turn into. "Well no, a Deimos could beat a Solaris in a fight if the Deimos crew were leet hAxors and the Solaris crew were cadets"

[Dragon]

Maybe the security council crewed the Collossus with cadets and that's why it got destroyed.

Considering how Colly went down, this would explain a lot.
Also, Serkr corvettes are heavily buffed. If you check out the mission, their AA is superior (more stronger beams, IIRC) and I'm almost certain they were up-armored.
Not to mention Fury's AI has a lot of variance in it's performance depending on skill level. Serkr was, IIRC, set to some high class (General?), which has a lot of adventage over "captain" (which is the basic, default setting). Serkr was always absurdly powerful, and it's supposed to be like that. Try pitting Durga against a normal Bellerpohon, in a test mission featuring only them and the corvette.
If you put a Deimos against a Solaris with Solaris set to lowest AI and Deimos to highest, I imagine that Deimos could actually win.