Author Topic: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)  (Read 589300 times)

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Offline MatthTheGeek

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Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
It's not that SC has no competition, but that because it's trying to do everything and (that's the most important part) be the best at all of it, therefore it's in competition with pretty much every game from a vast array of subgenres.
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666maslo666: Releasing a finished product is not a good thing! It is a modern fad.

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Offline Unknown Target

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Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
While you guys raise good points, you're all being a bit biased. Even if FSO is a better space game, it's not a competitor to SC, at least, not in the same sense. FSO is a series of mods for a 17 year old game (wow) that requires a lot of knowledge to assemble (or at least effort). It also has no marketing. AFF is in a similar boat.

Where SC wins, and where it makes it seem like it's the only game in town, and how it builds people up like maslo, is in its marketing.

Saying FSO is a "competitor" to S42 is like saying a (and excuse me for the obscure comparison) Reprap http://reprap.org/mediawiki/images/thumb/7/71/Reprappro-Mendel.jpg/500px-Reprappro-Mendel.jpg
is a competitor to a Dremel Idea Builder https://3dprinter.dremel.com/sites/default/files/styles/dremel_popup_image/public/features/Genesis_2_0.jpg?itok=EKTbWI1L. One is a packaged product with technically less capabilities but a solid marketing base behind it and (in the case of the Dremel) a professional team designing and assembling it (with more reliability as a result). The other is a DIY kit that may have more capabilities but is also a lot fussier.

Technically, the two are competitors, but only for a relatively small subset of the population. For the vast majority, it's not, because one is a DIY approach and the other is a packaged product. Their marketbase is a Venn diagram, where in the middle are the modders and tinkerers and generally obsessed fans, like all of us, that are willing to put together such an old game and try it. Most of the people backing SC, at this point, I would imagine have never even heard of FS2, let alone played it, and I think many of them would point to Freelancer as their "last cool space game" (this is my personal experience, gathered from talking to people who are "into" space games - a lot of them don't know about FS2 and list Freelancer as the last space game they played).
« Last Edit: December 23, 2015, 09:03:09 am by Unknown Target »

 

Offline karajorma

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Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
The point of mentioning FS2_Open was not to claim it was a competitor but to show how easily something could come along and beat the crap out of SC. It wouldn't require anything that hard to make. A professional game company could probably make a product that was like FS2_Open in a year. All it would take is for some big name in gaming to come out as a fan of space sims, express their disappointment in SC and start up a kickstarter while promising to kick the **** out of feature creep.
Karajorma's Freespace FAQ. It's almost like asking me yourself.

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Offline MatthTheGeek

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Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Hell just look at Strike Suit Zero. The non-suit flight model and the complexity of missions is pretty much comparable to FS2, it's a pretty recent game, and it's a better space shooter than SC on all accounts, and would probably beat SQ42 on plot and mission design by a significant margin. This already exists, it didn't need 80M to exist, and it already beats SC on some of its most important features.

SC is not in competition with everything, it's already superseeded by everything. It's obsolete before it's even made it past rough alpha stages.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2015, 09:42:47 am by MatthTheGeek »
People are stupid, therefore anything popular is at best suspicious.

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666maslo666: Releasing a finished product is not a good thing! It is a modern fad.

SpardaSon21: it seems like you exist in a permanent state of half-joking misanthropy

Axem: when you put it like that, i sound like an insane person

bigchunk1: it's not retarded it's american!
bigchunk1: ...

batwota: steele's maneuvering for the coup de gras
MatthTheGeek: you mispelled grâce
Awaesaar: grace
batwota: oh right :P
Darius: ah!
Darius: yes, i like that
MatthTheGeek: the way you just spelled it it means fat
Awaesaar: +accent I forgot how to keyboard
MatthTheGeek: or grease
Darius: the killing fat!
Axem: jabba does the coup de gras
MatthTheGeek: XD
Axem: bring me solo and a cookie

 

Offline Spoon

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Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
While you guys raise good points, you're all being a bit biased. Even if FSO is a better space game, it's not a competitor to SC, at least, not in the same sense. FSO is a series of mods for a 17 year old game (wow) that requires a lot of knowledge to assemble (or at least effort). It also has no marketing. AFF is in a similar boat.
You are outdated, nowadays FSO has a easy to use installer that doesn't require much knowledge or effort. And standalone games like Diaspora and WoD (and I believe recently BP made the jump to stand alone too, to get rid of the dependency hell that was shackling it), are all super easy to install. Diaspora has an installer, WoD is extract and drop. It really can't get much easier and effort free than that.
Urutorahappī!!

[02:42] <@Axem> spoon somethings wrong
[02:42] <@Axem> critically wrong
[02:42] <@Axem> im happy with these missions now
[02:44] <@Axem> well
[02:44] <@Axem> with 2 of them

 

Offline Unknown Target

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Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
While you guys raise good points, you're all being a bit biased. Even if FSO is a better space game, it's not a competitor to SC, at least, not in the same sense. FSO is a series of mods for a 17 year old game (wow) that requires a lot of knowledge to assemble (or at least effort). It also has no marketing. AFF is in a similar boat.
You are outdated, nowadays FSO has a easy to use installer that doesn't require much knowledge or effort. And standalone games like Diaspora and WoD (and I believe recently BP made the jump to stand alone too, to get rid of the dependency hell that was shackling it), are all super easy to install. Diaspora has an installer, WoD is extract and drop. It really can't get much easier and effort free than that.

A) No need to get personal.

B) You're assuming people have a basic knowledge of what a mod even is or how one would go about adding it. Heck, you're assuming they even know FSO exists.

C) Have you looked at the FS2 control screen recently? Compare that to...heck, any other game. It's pretty daunting for a beginner, especially someone used to easier control layouts like in an FPS. Even then, Strike Suit Zero is simpler to get into. Just because the installation process is simplified doesn't mean everything else is. But, I take your point: FSO is easier to get into now that you don't have to piece it together. Now, do you get my point - that comparing an open source game with lots of different options for how to take it (FSO install, BP install, Diaspora install, lots of controls from a time when games were much more complex, having to understand what the FSO even is, etc) to a clean studio game (which I'm not saying SC will be) is not a very fair comparison. It's a bit like apples and oranges, etc.

 
Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
No Man's Sky is scheduled for a June 2016 release date.
Is Star Citizen coming out before then? Doubt it.

So that will be at least two games, ED:H and NMS which are out before Star Citizen and competitors.
If one wants to compare SQ42 to ED:H and NMS, well other games have already been out in that genre as mentioned.

I don't consider FS:O a competitor to anything current.

 

Offline MatthTheGeek

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Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Even though you certainly have a point about FSO's ingame control interface (but damn E:D ain't any better if not worst), this is partly why I brought up SSZ as a good example of solid, modern space shooter that manages handily to outperform SC, assuming SC development continues going in the same direction and with similar design choices and organization as we have seen so far.
People are stupid, therefore anything popular is at best suspicious.

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666maslo666: Releasing a finished product is not a good thing! It is a modern fad.

SpardaSon21: it seems like you exist in a permanent state of half-joking misanthropy

Axem: when you put it like that, i sound like an insane person

bigchunk1: it's not retarded it's american!
bigchunk1: ...

batwota: steele's maneuvering for the coup de gras
MatthTheGeek: you mispelled grâce
Awaesaar: grace
batwota: oh right :P
Darius: ah!
Darius: yes, i like that
MatthTheGeek: the way you just spelled it it means fat
Awaesaar: +accent I forgot how to keyboard
MatthTheGeek: or grease
Darius: the killing fat!
Axem: jabba does the coup de gras
MatthTheGeek: XD
Axem: bring me solo and a cookie

 
Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
FSO is not a competitor for ED or SC. It's ridiculos to even think of it :)
Because FSO is still waaaay better mission based space combat sim then anything nowadays. It's a Game with a Soul, immersive and fun. I've never played original FS or FS2, but played original wireframe Elite. I respect Braben, especially for his socks photo :) and support ED by buying both ED and Horizons, but what I really dream of.  Freespace: Dangerous if you wish, based on Cobra engine, but moddable.
As for Star Citizen ~ it is both funny and sad to see all the fans saying SC is so superior game without knowing what it eventually become. Now it is in so ridiculous state, some demo made of **** and sticks, even Chris is frustrated by trying to play with it. Not to mention his HOTAS allergy :)

 

Offline StarSlayer

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Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
I think some folks are getting a little confused about why FSO was brought up.  The point I believe Matth and Kara were bringing up are the implications that some big budget Supercar may not deliver an overall better driving experience than a 68 Mustang fastback some folks modded up in a garage for fun.  Not that SQ42 and FSO are in any sort of meaningful competition, one's a commercial product and the other a hobby.  Star Citizen's success or failure is not going to be impacted by the existence of FSO.

That said if the 68 Stang beats the pants off some commercial SNAFU the garage tuners have every right to be smug.
“Think lightly of yourself and deeply of the world”

 

Offline MatthTheGeek

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Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Basically what we're saying is that better options already exist right now than what SC is going to become - with reasonable estimations based on the current state of things, their previous progress and their announced plans.

SC's scope covers gameplay from a lot of existing game genres, and although I wouldn't reasonably expect a game of this large a scope (even though CIG and the fans do) to have the best gameplay ever on each and every of its many parts, I would at least expect and require each part to be at least decent and vaguely enjoyable when taken separately. A reasonable estimation of SC's future wouldn't even bring the quality of these parts close to mediocre, let alone good.

For example, comparing SQ42 to FSO and SSZ is relevant. Even in the best of circumstances I wouldn't expect SQ42 taken on its own to surpass either of those, because SQ42 is part of a larger project and the interactions between the different parts implies sacrifices to make the whole game work - but I would expect it to be decent and somewhat enjoyable on its own. However, in the reasonable expectations of SC we have laid out before, SQ42 is looking to turn out horrendous, both in term of gameplay quality, depth and storytelling. The same can be said for each of the parts SC is made of (persistent universe, FPS, etc).

I hope this clarifies things. Basically even by lowering our standards to something coherent with the compromises a game with this large a scope will always be forced to do, we just can't reasonably expect - based on what we know and what we can expect to happen in the future - any part of SC to reach acceptable levels of quality and enjoyability. Let alone be the Best Damn Game Ever.

And that is comparing SC's parts with _existing_ games, not the games that will be released by the time SC comes out, assuming it does.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2015, 12:32:45 pm by MatthTheGeek »
People are stupid, therefore anything popular is at best suspicious.

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666maslo666: Releasing a finished product is not a good thing! It is a modern fad.

SpardaSon21: it seems like you exist in a permanent state of half-joking misanthropy

Axem: when you put it like that, i sound like an insane person

bigchunk1: it's not retarded it's american!
bigchunk1: ...

batwota: steele's maneuvering for the coup de gras
MatthTheGeek: you mispelled grâce
Awaesaar: grace
batwota: oh right :P
Darius: ah!
Darius: yes, i like that
MatthTheGeek: the way you just spelled it it means fat
Awaesaar: +accent I forgot how to keyboard
MatthTheGeek: or grease
Darius: the killing fat!
Axem: jabba does the coup de gras
MatthTheGeek: XD
Axem: bring me solo and a cookie

 

Offline 666maslo666

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Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
It's not that SC has no competition, but that because it's trying to do everything and (that's the most important part) be the best at all of it, therefore it's in competition with pretty much every game from a vast array of subgenres.

I dont think its so simple. There might be better FPS games than SC and better space sims than SC, better RPGs.. but they are all separate games, what you do in one does not affect the others. Its precisely the fact that in SC all those things happen in one seamless universe that makes it unique. Until there is another game in development that allows you to take part in FPS action on a planet, then seamlessly fly to space, do space combat, then perform EVA and boarding FPS inside a spaceship while the battle outside is still going on, SC has no real competition in what its trying to achieve. Freespace does the space combat part really well, but lacks other parts. For example, just because both Freespace and Unreal Tournament exist and are good games in themselves, does not mean I wouldnt still want a combined game where you can fight with Shivans in a space fighter Freespace-style, then board a shivan cruiser and shoot them UT-style, seamlessly. Separate games, while good, do not scratch the same itch. A game can be more than a simple sum of its parts.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2015, 12:55:00 pm by 666maslo666 »
"For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and there you will long to return." - Leonardo da Vinci

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Offline MatthTheGeek

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Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Did you actually read my last post? I've already addressed this.
People are stupid, therefore anything popular is at best suspicious.

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666maslo666: Releasing a finished product is not a good thing! It is a modern fad.

SpardaSon21: it seems like you exist in a permanent state of half-joking misanthropy

Axem: when you put it like that, i sound like an insane person

bigchunk1: it's not retarded it's american!
bigchunk1: ...

batwota: steele's maneuvering for the coup de gras
MatthTheGeek: you mispelled grâce
Awaesaar: grace
batwota: oh right :P
Darius: ah!
Darius: yes, i like that
MatthTheGeek: the way you just spelled it it means fat
Awaesaar: +accent I forgot how to keyboard
MatthTheGeek: or grease
Darius: the killing fat!
Axem: jabba does the coup de gras
MatthTheGeek: XD
Axem: bring me solo and a cookie

 

Offline Aesaar

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Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
CR's genius is that you can think of anything you want in a game, and SC's going to be **** at it.  Focusing on a few things and doing those really well is so last gen.  Truly next-gen games are all about having the most diverse assembly of **** possible.

Freespace 2 is just a really good space sim, but SC is a ****ty space sim AND a ****ty FPS, all in one package!  That's just better.

Number of features is more important than quality of features.  Think about it.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2015, 01:37:53 pm by Aesaar »

 

Offline Spoon

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Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
A) No need to get personal.
What?

B) You're assuming people have a basic knowledge of what a mod even is or how one would go about adding it.
I am going to get a bit personal here, because you are being down right weird. Where are you getting this from? Where in my post have I argued or 'assumed' anything of this?
Again though, you are outdated. The majority of mods are selectable options in the FSO installer. It's a simple click away from adding one. Also, you are argueing that the vast majority of space sim fans are oblivious of what a mod is. I find this unlikely, the majority of the PC gamer user base is most likely familiar with the term.

Heck, you're assuming they even know FSO exists.
Where the **** are you even getting this from? I didn't argue against or for any of that, I didn't even mention any of that. The only thing I have done is simply correcting you that installation of FSO is really ****ing simple nowadays.

C) Have you looked at the FS2 control screen recently? Compare that to...heck, any other game. It's pretty daunting for a beginner, especially someone used to easier control layouts like in an FPS. Even then, Strike Suit Zero is simpler to get into. Just because the installation process is simplified doesn't mean everything else is.
Again this is some weird ass tangent that you are going on about here. Are you okay? I haven't said a single thing about the controls or anything.
And I do agree that Freespace has a huge amount of redundant controls, and I vastly improved the default keybinding layout for it in Wings of Dawn.

But, I take your point: FSO is easier to get into now that you don't have to piece it together. Now, do you get my point - that comparing an open source game with lots of different options for how to take it (FSO install, BP install, Diaspora install, lots of controls from a time when games were much more complex, having to understand what the FSO even is, etc) to a clean studio game (which I'm not saying SC will be) is not a very fair comparison. It's a bit like apples and oranges, etc.
I still don't know why you are even directing all this ranting in my direction.
Urutorahappī!!

[02:42] <@Axem> spoon somethings wrong
[02:42] <@Axem> critically wrong
[02:42] <@Axem> im happy with these missions now
[02:44] <@Axem> well
[02:44] <@Axem> with 2 of them

 
Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
It's not that SC has no competition, but that because it's trying to do everything and (that's the most important part) be the best at all of it, therefore it's in competition with pretty much every game from a vast array of subgenres.

I dont think its so simple. There might be better FPS games than SC and better space sims than SC, better RPGs.. but they are all separate games, what you do in one does not affect the others. Its precisely the fact that in SC all those things happen in one seamless universe that makes it unique. Until there is another game in development that allows you to take part in FPS action on a planet, then seamlessly fly to space, do space combat, then perform EVA and boarding FPS inside a spaceship while the battle outside is still going on, SC has no real competition in what its trying to achieve. Freespace does the space combat part really well, but lacks other parts. For example, just because both Freespace and Unreal Tournament exist and are good games in themselves, does not mean I wouldnt still want a combined game where you can fight with Shivans in a space fighter Freespace-style, then board a shivan cruiser and shoot them UT-style, seamlessly. Separate games, while good, do not scratch the same itch. A game can be more than a simple sum of its parts.

#1 Squadron 42 is a separate game. This is one of the campaign promises they broke. They're selling it separately.

As for games where you can land on a planet, build ships, fight together, board the enemy, etcetera, these games already exist:

Sorry to tell you but you're not in love with a game. You're in love with the idea of a game. And when that game comes out, you will be disappointed. Unless the game is crafted and linear, the type of experiences you crave will be few far and in-between.

What you want is basically a scripted, action-packed sequence out of Call of Duty but you want it in a completely random, MMO world.
It won't happen. The two ideas are diametrically opposed. You'd have more luck with that sort of experience in a Call of Duty, Halo or Dead Space type of game.

 

Offline CT27

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Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
What kind of game exactly is S42 going to be?

 

Offline Aesaar

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Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Movie.

 

Offline karajorma

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Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Freespace does the space combat part really well, but lacks other parts. For example, just because both Freespace and Unreal Tournament exist and are good games in themselves, does not mean I wouldnt still want a combined game where you can fight with Shivans in a space fighter Freespace-style, then board a shivan cruiser and shoot them UT-style, seamlessly. Separate games, while good, do not scratch the same itch. A game can be more than a simple sum of its parts.

If you're willing to accept the parts being ****ty cause the experience of the whole will be better, the game you want already exists. Ironically enough it was made by Derek Smart.

The rest of us however believe that a collection of ****ty games still results in a ****ty game.
Karajorma's Freespace FAQ. It's almost like asking me yourself.

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Offline Mongoose

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Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
I dont think its so simple. There might be better FPS games than SC and better space sims than SC, better RPGs.. but they are all separate games, what you do in one does not affect the others. Its precisely the fact that in SC all those things happen in one seamless universe that makes it unique. Until there is another game in development that allows you to take part in FPS action on a planet, then seamlessly fly to space, do space combat, then perform EVA and boarding FPS inside a spaceship while the battle outside is still going on, SC has no real competition in what its trying to achieve. Freespace does the space combat part really well, but lacks other parts. For example, just because both Freespace and Unreal Tournament exist and are good games in themselves, does not mean I wouldnt still want a combined game where you can fight with Shivans in a space fighter Freespace-style, then board a shivan cruiser and shoot them UT-style, seamlessly. Separate games, while good, do not scratch the same itch. A game can be more than a simple sum of its parts.
There's a very good reason that no one has done this before: generally speaking, trying to mash a bunch of disparate genres together into a cohesive whole is a really bad design idea.  I mean, you do realize that perhaps the biggest irony of Derek Smart coming out swinging against CIG was that he himself tried (mostly) unsuccessfully to build a similar game for more than a decade, right?  We literally have a common expression for this concept: "Jack of all trades, but master of none."  It's why no photography enthusiast would be caught dead relying on an iPhone camera, or no legitimate programmer would be caught dead trying to code on said iPhone, or--can you tell I hate smartphones yet?  Point being that every new major mechanic you toss into a game is going to make the whole project exponentially harder to be a cohesive final unit.  Do yourself a favor and count how many of the most well-crafted games ever made have tried to dabble in a bunch of genres at once.  It'll be an extremely short list.