Author Topic: Release post template  (Read 7258 times)

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Look at this nonsense. You have a release thread for software made in 2015 that provides builds for systems older than some of this site's members and recommends that users download a compatibility build for 15 year old CPUs. It's ridiculous. You have single downloads for Mac, Linux and FreeBSD (lol), none of which are shackled to this insane level of backwards compatibility. Put the Win9X and no-SSE builds in a separate thread or something for the 3 people who still use them, and the rest of us can get builds targeted at the current decade.
The good Christian should beware of mathematicians, and all those who make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that the mathematicians have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine man in the bonds of Hell.

 

Offline m!m

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Pre XP support has already been dropped for the next release. Pre SSE2 builds are probably not needed anymore and could be dropped because the instruction set was introduced in 2001 so it's very likely that no modern systems needs these special builds anymore.

 

Offline Spoon

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Look at this nonsense. You have a release thread for software made in 2015 that provides builds for systems older than some of this site's members and recommends that users download a compatibility build for 15 year old CPUs. It's ridiculous. You have single downloads for Mac, Linux and FreeBSD (lol), none of which are shackled to this insane level of backwards compatibility. Put the Win9X and no-SSE builds in a separate thread or something for the 3 people who still use them, and the rest of us can get builds targeted at the current decade.
Can't agree more.
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Offline General Battuta

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The post is also really hard to understand, visually. There's a ton of clutter. Assuming this is meant to be user-facing, not-dev facing, the instant you look at the post your hands should know where to point and click to get the build.

 

Offline Mongoose

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Pre XP support has already been dropped for the next release. Pre SSE2 builds are probably not needed anymore and could be dropped because the instruction set was introduced in 2001 so it's very likely that no modern systems needs these special builds anymore.
Seriously, my old Dell ****box was running a Pentium 4, and even that supported SSE2.  You can get newer machines out of the dumpster behind a random local business.

 

Offline jr2

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Perhaps all builds targeted at legacy systems should be under a separate 'Compatibility' subsection of the release post, or better yet, under a second post?


I know on XDA Developers, OPs who are releasing ROMs that have a lot of information will usually put the overview of what the ROM is / does in the first post, with a sort of table of contents in the first part of that post stating, 'for installation instructions, see 2nd post, for screenshots, see 3rd post, for troubleshooting, see 3rd post' or somesuch, and they often post blank posts after those to reserve them for possible future use if they need more sections.

Keeps the confusion to a minimum.  :yes:

 

Offline Goober5000

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Look at this nonsense. You have a release thread for software made in 2015 that provides builds for systems older than some of this site's members and recommends that users download a compatibility build for 15 year old CPUs. It's ridiculous. You have single downloads for Mac, Linux and FreeBSD (lol), none of which are shackled to this insane level of backwards compatibility. Put the Win9X and no-SSE builds in a separate thread or something for the 3 people who still use them, and the rest of us can get builds targeted at the current decade.

What utter rubbish.  How big of a troll do you have to be to complain that we provide a wide variety of options for a wide variety of users?  It's not enough to get something that you want -- for you to be satisfied, other people have to be denied something they want.

This is aside from the fact that, as m!m said, your post is already overcome by events.

Have a warning for your superciliousness.


The post is also really hard to understand, visually. There's a ton of clutter. Assuming this is meant to be user-facing, not-dev facing, the instant you look at the post your hands should know where to point and click to get the build.

This on the other hand is legitimate and reasonable criticism.  Programmers tend to have a systematic mindset that is exceptionally well suited for solving problems but not that conducive to designing something that's visually appealing.  (It's not that we can't do it, it's that it's extra work and usually a much lower priority.)  So any alternative format proposals would be welcome.

 

Offline Spoon

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Oh man. :rolleyes:

What utter rubbish.  How big of a troll do you have to be to complain that we provide a wide variety of options for a wide variety of users?
First off; Bringing up a valid point that you happen to be (probably the only person) disagreeing with is not 'trolling'.
Second off; This 'wide variety of users' you speak of, who exactly are these people? The three people that use a pc build in 1999 to try and run freespace in this time and day? You?

It's not enough to get something that you want -- for you to be satisfied, other people have to be denied something they want.
That's not even what he suggested. If you actually read his post, he suggested that those olders build be put into a seperate thread. So the release thread becomes easier to read and all operating systems have a single download link.

This is aside from the fact that, as m!m said, your post is already overcome by events.
This one?
Pre XP support has already been dropped for the next release. Pre SSE2 builds are probably not needed anymore and could be dropped because the instruction set was introduced in 2001 so it's very likely that no modern systems needs these special builds anymore.
The one that agrees that the builds other than the SSE2 ones aren't needed anymore? Pretty much what Phantomhoover was getting at? I fail to see how this invalidates PH's post at all. More like, it reinforces his point.

Have a warning for your superciliousness.
This is pure power abuse. Is this becoming a thing now? Issueing official warnings to people that bring up valid points that you happen to disagree with? It doesn't even seem like you read his post properly, just that you got upset by the perceived condescending tone of the post.

The post is also really hard to understand, visually. There's a ton of clutter. Assuming this is meant to be user-facing, not-dev facing, the instant you look at the post your hands should know where to point and click to get the build.

This on the other hand is legitimate and reasonable criticism.  Programmers tend to have a systematic mindset that is exceptionally well suited for solving problems but not that conducive to designing something that's visually appealing.  (It's not that we can't do it, it's that it's extra work and usually a much lower priority.)  So any alternative format proposals would be welcome.
Well here's a start to clear up the format; do what has been suggested here by PH and m!m and get rid of the old builds (into some kind of backwards compatibility thread for people with ancient machines) and the absurd "If you don't know which one to get, get the third one (no SSE)." recommendation.
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[02:42] <@Axem> spoon somethings wrong
[02:42] <@Axem> critically wrong
[02:42] <@Axem> im happy with these missions now
[02:44] <@Axem> well
[02:44] <@Axem> with 2 of them

 
What utter rubbish.  How big of a troll do you have to be to complain that we provide a wide variety of options for a wide variety of users?  It's not enough to get something that you want -- for you to be satisfied, other people have to be denied something they want.

This is aside from the fact that, as m!m said, your post is already overcome by events.

Have a warning for your superciliousness.

Interesting fact: both Wikipedia and Mozilla found that adding more payment options to their donations screen actively reduced the amount of donations they received. A 'wide variety of options' is not necessarily a good thing, if it confuses users and makes them spend cognitive effort choosing the one they need. Often they'll just give up on you entirely. So telling new users up front that they need to read a Wikipedia article and download a 3rd party tool to make an informed choice needs a pretty hefty justification behind it. In this case the only reason for offering all these compatibility builds seems to be that you personally use a 20 year old computer and have made it your mission to make the SCP accommodate it. Forgive me if I'm a little dismissive of that.
The good Christian should beware of mathematicians, and all those who make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that the mathematicians have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine man in the bonds of Hell.

 

Offline Spoon

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In this case the only reason for offering all these compatibility builds seems to be that you personally use a 20 year old computer and have made it your mission to make the SCP accommodate it. Forgive me if I'm a little dismissive of that.
If this is actually the case then that explains why Goober seems to consider the opening post to be 'condescending' to him.

Please don't let the SCP be held back by a single ultra conservative individual. :blah:
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[02:42] <@Axem> spoon somethings wrong
[02:42] <@Axem> critically wrong
[02:42] <@Axem> im happy with these missions now
[02:44] <@Axem> well
[02:44] <@Axem> with 2 of them

 

Offline chief1983

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'Perceived' condescending tone?  The first four words took care of setting the tone for this thread.  I don't necessarily disagree with anything Phantom Hoover said, but I could have been justified to lock this thread after just reading the opening sentence and requesting that if there are to be criticisms of the release template, they could be brought across a bit less dramatically.

Now, as to simplifying it, if there was a 'click to see more' tag in our forum, I could easily simplify the Windows download build section as many other projects do.  But, our spoiler tag just hides things and you have to highlight them to read, with no way to turn off the spoiler tag.  If we could modify the code behind the spoiler tag in our template a bit or provide an alternative tag (maybe there's one I'm forgetting already?), I could implement it in the template, by offering one default download link, and a small, collapsed 'more builds' section below it.
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Offline General Battuta

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The opening sentence was not good, the point is valid, I don't think the warning was at all justified but Phantom you probably could do with not calling people fools!

 

Offline m!m

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Now, as to simplifying it, if there was a 'click to see more' tag in our forum, I could easily simplify the Windows download build section as many other projects do.  But, our spoiler tag just hides things and you have to highlight them to read, with no way to turn off the spoiler tag.  If we could modify the code behind the spoiler tag in our template a bit or provide an alternative tag (maybe there's one I'm forgetting already?), I could implement it in the template, by offering one default download link, and a small, collapsed 'more builds' section below it.

How about moving it to the bottom of the post in a "Compatibility builds" section?

 

Offline Goober5000

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First off; Bringing up a valid point that you happen to be (probably the only person) disagreeing with is not 'trolling'.
Second off; This 'wide variety of users' you speak of, who exactly are these people? The three people that use a pc build in 1999 to try and run freespace in this time and day? You?

First, the trolling is not the disagreement.  The trolling is the insulting of chief1983's post by the word "nonsense", the categorization of backwards compatibility as "insane", and the general bad faith frame of the post.  This is not constructive criticism; this is an attack straight out of the troll playbook.

Second, it has always been the policy of the SCP to provide any builds that coders are willing to compile and support.  Your position is no more tenable than if you were complaining about providing support to OSX or Linux users.

Quote
Quote
It's not enough to get something that you want -- for you to be satisfied, other people have to be denied something they want.

That's not even what he suggested. If you actually read his post, he suggested that those olders build be put into a seperate thread. So the release thread becomes easier to read and all operating systems have a single download link.

You're committing the fallacy of composition.  You can't isolate his post to that one statement.  Go back and read it yourself.  It was completely and contemptuously dismissive of any perspective other than his own.


In this case the only reason for offering all these compatibility builds seems to be that you personally use a 20 year old computer and have made it your mission to make the SCP accommodate it. Forgive me if I'm a little dismissive of that.
If this is actually the case then that explains why Goober seems to consider the opening post to be 'condescending' to him.

Please don't let the SCP be held back by a single ultra conservative individual. :blah:

Please don't base your entire argument on incorrect assumptions.

 
Second, it has always been the policy of the SCP to provide any builds that coders are willing to compile and support.  Your position is no more tenable than if you were complaining about providing support to OSX or Linux users.

This, then, is a bad policy. You should be providing builds for each OS (because everyone knows what OS they're using) configured for a reasonable range of modern hardware and maybe providing specialised compatibility builds in their own section. We aren't getting new players who use a Pentium running Windows 98. The people who use those builds, if they even exist, know what they're doing. We can sacrifice a little accessibility for them if it means a big gain in accessibility for everyone else.
The good Christian should beware of mathematicians, and all those who make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that the mathematicians have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine man in the bonds of Hell.

 

Offline chief1983

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Again, there's nothing wrong with the policy, we could just perhaps work on the presentation a bit.  But they don't have to be exclusive.
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Offline General Battuta

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Yes, presentation is the issue. Make whatever builds you want, but make the builds that should be default for most users the most discoverable.

 

Offline Goober5000

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Second, it has always been the policy of the SCP to provide any builds that coders are willing to compile and support.  Your position is no more tenable than if you were complaining about providing support to OSX or Linux users.

This, then, is a bad policy. You should be providing builds for each OS (because everyone knows what OS they're using) configured for a reasonable range of modern hardware and maybe providing specialised compatibility builds in their own section. We aren't getting new players who use a Pentium running Windows 98. The people who use those builds, if they even exist, know what they're doing. We can sacrifice a little accessibility for them if it means a big gain in accessibility for everyone else.

See, this is a much more reasonable post.

Sure, new players aren't going to be buying old computers running old operating systems.  But there are still players who maintain old systems (aside from myself, there is Selectah and at least one other whose name doesn't immediately come to mind).  And if old systems can still be supported while not restricting new development, why not keep all options available?

But post-3.7.2, the point is moot, because as m!m said, pre-XP compatibility has been effectively dropped.  This is a direct result of moving to C++11 which (for all intents and purposes) cannot be built for pre-XP versions of Windows.

Now, the "maybe providing specialized compatibility builds in their own section" is along the lines of format suggestions I solicited.  This might simplify the release post, but on the other hand, it would also take away from the release post being a one-stop shop for all builds.  After all, we don't post separate threads for OSX and Linux builds.

 

Offline MatthTheGeek

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Alright, let's take a step back and go from a fresh base.

1) Noone is talking about dropping the compatibility builds as long as someone is willing to compile them. We have literaly no reason to not give access to any form of content that someone is willing to provide, however marginally useful that content may be.

2) Those compatibility builds do cater to the need of a very minimal minority of players, and currently do needlessly clutter the main release thread.

As a consequence from 1 and 2, those builds can and should be relocated and the main release post should be reformatted.

Remember the release thread is a thread, and therefore can and should be composed of multiple posts. First post should be clear, concise, and comport one link to each supported platform and possibly the launcher(s). Everything else can go in later posts or separate threads, in decreasing order of importance.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2015, 03:04:26 pm by MatthTheGeek »
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Offline The E

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Okay, can we get beyond the namecalling and upset-being and posturing and other bull**** and get constructive?

Let's brainstorm a new release template we can use!
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