Hard Light Productions Forums
Hosted Projects - FS2 Required => Blue Planet => Topic started by: General Battuta on September 28, 2015, 10:36:21 am
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We have an opportunity here. What do you guys think? Dante doesn't fit the Shivan aesthetic very well. On the other hand, I like the idea of giving it a more articulate, artistic name like Dante to suggest it houses an anima.
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The Lucifer housed an anima too, though...
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perhaps Vrtra
In the early Vedic religion, Vritra (Vṛtra वृत्र "the enveloper"), is a serpent or dragon, the personification of drought and adversary of Indra. In Hinduism, Vritra is identified as an Asura. Vritra was also known in the Vedas as Ahi ("snake"). He appears as a dragon blocking the course of the rivers and is heroically slain by Indra
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The drought part I think has relevance as when we first see the ship it attempts to blockade a jump node, traditionally the source of goods and prosperity
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Apollyon (Greek synonym for Abaddon, The Destroyer, which is also a good name, but could get confused with the SCv Abaddon from sm3-05 "Argonautica"), would play well with the anima thing, you could then refer to the vessel as THE Destroyer itself.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abaddon
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oop wrong forum :D
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Outsourcing creative decisions to the community? I'm ok with this.
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I propose that the Dante be renamed the SSJ My Balls. All in favour say 'aye'.
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I propose that the Dante be renamed the SSJ My Balls. All in favour say 'aye'.
neg
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I propose that the Dante be renamed the SSJ My Balls. All in favour say 'aye'.
SSJ Bofa, Bofa What?, Bofa Deez Nuts
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Great idea! Dante really doesn't fit.
it houses an anima.
And when you put it that way... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angra_Mainyu (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angra_Mainyu)
Of course I would suggest the later Ahriman, Angra Mainyu is ridiculously close to the English cognate. It doesn't have the most impressive ring to it, but the meaning fits very well.
(Either that or SSJ Raynor.)
To be honest, a somewhat more distinct model would also be nice, but I doubt there's much to choose from.
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It may not fit, but I do like Dante. It is that different from everything else, so to be it was always something special that I knew we couldn't touch.
But all suggested names (hmm) have merit :)
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Astwihād (http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/astwihad-av) The destroyer of souls.
“(...) when he looks upon (man) with his eyes, he deprives him of the breath-soul (Anima).” “Astwihād is explained as the disintegration of material beings.”
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Ahriman
I like this suggestion best, so far...
(Either that or SSJ Raynor.)
...:no:
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Ok...I spent way more time thinking about this than I thought I would.
I really see two different ways to view the naming of the Shivans: "destroyer", or "purity". And it really depends on your view of them, so I'll try to break down my thoughts.
"Destroyers":
Well, they have only wiped out countless people, and a lot of their ship names/classes tend to follow that line of thinking. However, there was always a crime of some form before the "destroyers" came. To quote an unknown Ancient: "Our crime was sin." Well, follow that line of thinking. I kind of liked what DahBlount suggested: Apollyon/Abaddon or heck, go with the name given in AoA: "They are here, SHIVA. You will grant them passage." Another one I kinda liked...Aroga: "Destroyer,shatterer". Couldn't really find a good name that meant "Destroyer of sin(s)" that I liked.
"Purity":
Another meaning of Shiva is "Always Pure". To me, seems a lot like the Shivans. They have always kept to their purpose as the Great Destroyers, uncorrupted for eons. A form of purity that may seem terrible, but it is still pure. I haven't been able to find a name that really seems to stick with me yet. Closest one I have found is Amalesh: "The Pure One".
Pi
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"SSJ Unknown"
But seriously, I never gave it much notice and thought Dante was a good enough name in its own right.
But I have to agree that if you're looking to rename what is probably a major Shivan entity/essence/anima/command ship, the name "Shiva" is probably the most direct and simplest route. (Unless this itself suggests things that are simply not true, i.e. "Shiva" is not centered on the SSJ Dante, or in any other particular destroyer, any more than I am centered in my kidneys.)
As an aside, how do names for newly-encountered ships in FS get assigned? We encounter the Dante for the first time in Universal Truth (1st iteration) but are immediately given the code-name "Dante" for the super-juggernaut. This suggests the naming theme is at least partly randomized (which would be typical of modern-day military code-naming) and as such, the name "Dante" means nothing past the connotations of a particular Italian poet and his most well-known work, which deals with sin and its punishments.
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I say it should be called Hugsy.
But seriously
Ahriman
is also my favorite.
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SSJ Kardashiana
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I like "Abaddon"
If you keep with what Pireciter thoughts about purity and destroyers, it makes a lot of sense as Abaddon is both a place of destruction and is the name of an angel.
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"SSJ Unknown"
(...)
As an aside, how do names for newly-encountered ships in FS get assigned? We encounter the Dante for the first time in Universal Truth (1st iteration) but are immediately given the code-name "Dante" for the super-juggernaut. This suggests the naming theme is at least partly randomized (which would be typical of modern-day military code-naming) and as such, the name "Dante" means nothing past the connotations of a particular Italian poet and his most well-known work, which deals with sin and its punishments.
Good point: is the assumption here that names are assigned from some form of omniscient narrator that somewhat gives "clues" by the naming of ships, or is it something that is done by the GTVA itself?
If it is done by the GTVA, how did it name the SSJ unknown immediately after it came to the scene? Some kind of automatic name generator? (I know, I'm just repeating Damage's points here). If not automatic, shouldn't it at least come off something like ???? UNKNOWN ???? at least at the start? Give it a minute or so and then name it? (as if someone on the deck was figuring out what name to give it, they discuss it and decide the name, all this happening out of the camera).
If the point is to somewhat describe the character of the ship as seen, as perceived by the GTVA, well, it should display bewilderment, vertigo, despair, awe, terror. It appears the GTVA has a tradition of calling these SSJ as they appear with christian names. Lucifer, then Sathanas. (SSJ Jesus F Christ?) Dante could be worse than it is, it expresses bewilderment on the size of it. IDK, I'm at a loss here.
e: Abbadon is already used in FS2 for a SCv Moloch.
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Dante has never seemed right to me. I don't hate it but it does feel a bit incongruous with the rest of the Shivan naming schema. I'm not sure what name I'd point to as a good possibility but I don't think there's any reason to discount names that might work just because a ship had the name in retail - I'm sure Shivan ship names have repeated. It's been a long time since FS2 and I don't see the GTVA naming team going 'Well, don't designate it Abaddon, there was a corvette in that one battle however long ago - you know how Command gets about names.'
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Dante would be more fitting for some sort of deep space exploration ship which has delved into shivan territory for quite some time.
While I like Ahriman I go with the SSJ Unknown
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"SSJ Unknown"
(...)
As an aside, how do names for newly-encountered ships in FS get assigned? We encounter the Dante for the first time in Universal Truth (1st iteration) but are immediately given the code-name "Dante" for the super-juggernaut. This suggests the naming theme is at least partly randomized (which would be typical of modern-day military code-naming) and as such, the name "Dante" means nothing past the connotations of a particular Italian poet and his most well-known work, which deals with sin and its punishments.
Good point: is the assumption here that names are assigned from some form of omniscient narrator that somewhat gives "clues" by the naming of ships, or is it something that is done by the GTVA itself?
If it is done by the GTVA, how did it name the SSJ unknown immediately after it came to the scene? Some kind of automatic name generator? (I know, I'm just repeating Damage's points here). If not automatic, shouldn't it at least come off something like ???? UNKNOWN ???? at least at the start? Give it a minute or so and then name it? (as if someone on the deck was figuring out what name to give it, they discuss it and decide the name, all this happening out of the camera).
What would make most sense to me is a central name pool with appropriate names to use whenever a random Cain or Moloch appears. It would also be reasonable to keep some names ready for new capital ship classes, and after Sathanas, something bigger should certainly not surprise GTVA. In other words, immediately having a designation for an SSJ is not surprising at all.
It appears the GTVA has a tradition of calling these SSJ as they appear with christian names. Lucifer, then Sathanas. (SSJ Jesus F Christ?) Dante could be worse than it is, it expresses bewilderment on the size of it. IDK, I'm at a loss here.
This is true, but doesn't leave you much choice. There's Iblīs, which is the Arabic equivalent and afaik surprisingly unused. A synonym is Shayṭān, but that is used, for That Sad Excuse of a Bomber you might remember from FS1 :D
I know nothing about Hinduism, but they don't seem big on Devil-figures. I definitely wouldn't go with Shiva (what do you do when an SSSJ appears?), but Kālī is free. Wikipedia says that "she is often portrayed standing or dancing on her husband, the god Shiva, who lies calm and prostrate beneath her", like this:
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5e/Kali%3B_standing_triumphantly_over_Shiva._Chromolitho_Wellcome_V0045066.jpg/366px-Kali%3B_standing_triumphantly_over_Shiva._Chromolitho_Wellcome_V0045066.jpg)
~relationship goals~
That said, I still like Ahriman the best, because the meaning seams so appropriate, even if it sounds a bit lame. I especially like the fact that from the external perspective it seems to have started as a generic name for destructive thought, but later becomes reified into a single (even supreme) malign entity. That's such an anima thing to do!
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I do not know if the BP team considers the Battle Captains (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=86706.0) campaign made by Lepanto to be canon, but I just realized there is a Ravana-class in Lopez's scenario that is named Apollyon...
Back on topic...
I know nothing about Hinduism, but they don't seem big on Devil-figures. I definitely wouldn't go with Shiva (what do you do when an SSSJ appears?), but Kālī is free. Wikipedia says that "she is often portrayed standing or dancing on her husband, the god Shiva, who lies calm and prostrate beneath her", like this:
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5e/Kali%3B_standing_triumphantly_over_Shiva._Chromolitho_Wellcome_V0045066.jpg/366px-Kali%3B_standing_triumphantly_over_Shiva._Chromolitho_Wellcome_V0045066.jpg)
~relationship goals~
That said, I still like Ahriman the best, because the meaning seams so appropriate, even if it sounds a bit lame. I especially like the fact that from the external perspective it seems to have started as a generic name for destructive thought, but later becomes reified into a single (even supreme) malign entity. That's such an anima thing to do!
Looking at it again, I am starting to warm to Ahriman. Didn't even think of Kālī, but I could see that as well.
I say it should be called Hugsy.
Give Mr. Cuddles a friend! :)
Edited because I fail at proofreading...
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SSJ Urist
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Isn't Kali occupied by a small craft type, though? Ahriman sounds good. So does Urist, but I'm not sure if it's a creature from "real" mythos. :)
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There's a Kali flight group in AoA:Forced Entry. There's also some freighters in FS1's Playing Judas. But as others have said, there's no real reason a name can't be reused for specific purposes.
And despite what I just said, "Leviathan" would be just about perfect except for one little detail.
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SSJ Hidden Fun Stuff
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SSJ Dante#HiddenFunStuff ;7
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You could just call it "shiva", that is assuming it is the most powerful shivan vessel in the shivan arsenal (which it may very well not be). However what I think the Dante really needs is a completely new model, though I know that's not a practical goal.
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Kind of by definition, there cannot be an "ultimate" Shivan ship. They are infinitely mutable. And calling it "Shiva" makes it too much as if it were a central intelligence. It's not. It's just one more facet of the Shivan organism. An extremely powerful one, no doubt, and it may have local command dictates, but it still defers to the whole Shivan gestalt organism. At least that's my interpretation.
Neither the "Lucifer" nor the "Sathanas" actually kept to Hindu naming. Those are distinctly Judeo-Christian names. "Hades" would keep with the overall theme but that's definitely been used.
... What about Sheol? (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheol)
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Yeah, naming it the Shiva seems like it would imply things that weren't necessarily true. Granted, these are also all reporting names by GTVA staff and not the actual names of the vessels (assuming such a concept exists with the Shivans in the first place, which it probably does not), so it doesn't matter too much. I like Ahriman though, I think that one gets the idea across while adhering to existing naming conventions. Rolls off the tongue better than Angra Mainyu, that's for sure.
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Cain, demon don't follow the naming convention either. I like Sheol. It's an easy way to say hell, which you're basically staring down if you're up against one of these things.
Edit: it also sounds BA.
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Kali is also the name of a character in the TV show "Mongrels". I would not be able to keep a straight face... It would ruin the effect somewhat if I keep thinking of a psychopathic pigeon
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I'm goin' back to Kali, Kali, Kali
I'm goin' back to Kali...
...I don't think so
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In seriousness, I'd go for 'Ahriman'. Or 'Angra-Mainyu'.
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Dante is fine.
But if it has to change, Ahriman or Angra-Mainyu are quite nice.
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In seriousness, I'd go for 'Ahriman'. Or 'Angra-Mainyu'.
Out of those two, I feel the "Angra-Mainyu" inspires more of a feeling of dread or appropriate scope of the threat that the ship would produce.
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From Gnosticism, Yaldabaoth: the jealous god of the Old Testament, born of the Great Chaos, the serpent of the Tree of Knowledge and the burning bush that appeared to Moses and led the Hebrews from Egypt (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=84821), the lord of the physical world diametrically opposed to the spiritual.
For the Shivans of BP I can think of nothing better.
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In seriousness, I'd go for 'Ahriman'. Or 'Angra-Mainyu'.
Out of those two, I feel the "Angra-Mainyu" inspires more of a feeling of dread or appropriate scope of the threat that the ship would produce.
Only problem I have with it is that I couldn't stop myself from referring to it as the "Angry Man"
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"Nohochacyum"
This is a from a Mayan mythology. He is Brother to both deities of Death (Kisin) and Travel (Xamaniqinqu) and an archenemy of the world seperent, Hapikern. In the final strugge between Nohochacyum and Hapikern, Nohochacyum is said to win by strangling/smoothering Hapikern with his own body, which as side effect destroys all life on Earth.
I think this would work thematically due to the uncertain relation between Shivans and sub-space travel (in BP even interdimensional travel between paralell universes). Also the effect that the anihilation of life on Earth is protrayed as a side effect of a great struggle but not its objective would thematically gel with BP I think.
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SSJ Kalki. (NOT to be confused with Kali, who is something else).
In Hinduiusm, Kalki is the harbinger of the end-time. Also known as the destroyer of ignorance and filth, Kalki removes all that is a blemish or darkness to existence itself.
To those considered a blemish, even those well intended, Kalki is probably interpreted as being unfair, as a bully that brings death and destruction upon those people while seemingly lacking any clear motivation. In truth, Kalki's purpose is beyond the knowledge and understanding of these people and Kalki feels it is justified in fulfilling this task, finding no reason to explain itself to those who are so absorbed in selfish conflict that they would never even understand. Those not spared by Kalki will most likely choose their last word to be: "But why..?"
Kalki's final purpose is to bring a close to the 'age of wickedness' where men kill men and to usher in the 'age of truth', where men have finally come to understand the purest of ideals and that there's more important things to the whole of existence than narrow-minded gains, putting personal conflict and petty disagreement aside to build or construct a better world together. The day that happens, is the day when Kalki's work is done, the day where Kalki at last serves no more purpose.
Kalki is also a metaphor for eternity. Perhaps for after Kalki, men will be builders who prosper for eternity. Or perhaps for that striving to find this truth and greater purpose is a never ending journey.
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And Sara wins the thread
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And Sara wins the thread
Quoted for ****ing emphasis.
:yes:
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Nailed it! :nod:
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Yeah that's pretty dope.