[EAD_Agamemnon]

VERY nicely done campaign thus far.

The point where you return to Earth only to find it a wasteland of fire, ash, and dust...almost made me wanna cry. All that work for naught...THEN when it was made known the Shivans were responsible made me hate them even MORE.

Then the relation of the Vishnans to the Shivans...reminds me somewhat of the Vorlon / Shadow relationship, with the Vishnans compassion being a lot like Kosh. Then the Shivan mentality being a kind of very calculating and more sadist kind of Morden. Kind of a bad analogy but thats what came to mind. Makes me wonder, that when the Shivans were told to leave and never return, did that mean even in the universe with the GTVA? And from the sound of it it would one day be the GTVA to join the Vishnans.

POSSIBLE SPOILER WARNING:

Long story short I was indeed hoping for a more open arms ending...but am glad in a way the writers for this mods story made as they did. Shiva's saying we destroy...the GTVA wanted to reunite by force of arms when they could have simply said who they are and how long they have awaited the return home. Good touch in that a good majority of the Expeditionary force you strive to protect so much does the moral thing and sides with Earth. In the end here, I hope Earth wins or something else happens to make the GTVA see the err of its ways.

Not at all sure if I even made any sense here....only just now (a few minutes before this post) finished the campaign.

DEFINITELY a worthy successor story to FS2s.

[-Norbert-]

While they might seem similar on first glace, the Vishnans and Shivans aren't anything like the Vorlons and Shadows.

The Vorlons want complete discipline and obedience from the younger races always manipulating behind the scenes, where the Vishnans stay out of the young ones buisness unless something extraordinary happens.
The Shadows make the younger races fight against each other, because they beliefe it will eventually make the survivours stronger and better. When the Shivans judge a race to be unworthy they wipe them out completely so the following races get a chance to proof they are worthier... or get wiped out as well.

And I don't think the GTVA is going to join the Vishnans and their council anytime soon, not with them starting the "war in heaven". Maybe UEF is close to that level of enlightenment, but the GTVA (or at least the Human part of it) seems to have a long way to go.

Oh btw: I think the quote in your signature should be form "David Sheridan", after all John Sheridan learned that one form his father 

[NGTM-1R]

And I don't think the GTVA is going to join the Vishnans and their council anytime soon, not with them starting the "war in heaven". Maybe UEF is close to that level of enlightenment, but the GTVA (or at least the Human part of it) seems to have a long way to go.

Enlightenment is what you make of it. The UEF is based on a monolithic single-religion nonelected power structure. Chew on that thought for awhile, and what it means. The UEF essentially has the same power structure as Iran. Even if it's a relatively benevolent group of rulers, it's still not the democractically elected areligious Terran portion of the GTVA.

Too, the UEF seems to be confused by the concept of warmaking. Their culture just doesn't seem designed to accomodate large-scale violence or the need for it. This is a terrible, fatal flaw in a universe full of Shivans. Humanity needs its warriors to survive, and the UEF does not appear equipped to provide them.

[Snail]

And I don't think the GTVA is going to join the Vishnans and their council anytime soon, not with them starting the "war in heaven". Maybe UEF is close to that level of enlightenment, but the GTVA (or at least the Human part of it) seems to have a long way to go.

Enlightenment is what you make of it. The UEF is based on a monolithic single-religion nonelected power structure. Chew on that thought for awhile, and what it means. The UEF essentially has the same power structure as Iran. Even if it's a relatively benevolent group of rulers, it's still not the democractically elected areligious Terran portion of the GTVA.

Too, the UEF seems to be confused by the concept of warmaking. Their culture just doesn't seem designed to accomodate large-scale violence or the need for it. This is a terrible, fatal flaw in a universe full of Shivans. Humanity needs its warriors to survive, and the UEF does not appear equipped to provide them.

Damn Tevs.

[General Battuta]

And I don't think the GTVA is going to join the Vishnans and their council anytime soon, not with them starting the "war in heaven". Maybe UEF is close to that level of enlightenment, but the GTVA (or at least the Human part of it) seems to have a long way to go.

Enlightenment is what you make of it. The UEF is based on a monolithic single-religion nonelected power structure. Chew on that thought for awhile, and what it means. The UEF essentially has the same power structure as Iran. Even if it's a relatively benevolent group of rulers, it's still not the democractically elected areligious Terran portion of the GTVA.

Just playing devil's advocate to preserve the moral ambiguity of the story - the Elders largely stay out of political affairs, allowing the Jovians, Earthers, and Martians to do as they please, and simply act as a kind of 'steering committee' providing long-range spiritual and cultural guidance for the direction of mankind as a whole. It's as if the UN today were a gentle bunch of Buddhists who act to solve big problems like global warming and famine, but instead of passing resolutions, they just nicely ask people to do things.

Of course there are much creepier takes on the Elders, but that's what a UEF citizen would probably tell you. And it's completely correct to point out that nobody elected them.

[-Norbert-]

So the Eldar council wasn't elected... Does that change that they are closer to the qualities that the Vishnans like than the GTVA?
Whatever their reasons, the GTVA started a war without even trying to negociate first.

Enlightenment is a state of mind, not a political system after all.

[Thaeris]

I believe the reason for the war was at least alluded to in the "Prose" section of the BP website. Otherwise it was on a different thread which was fairly recent. Comes down to the politics of control...

-Thaeris

[EAD_Agamemnon]

I understand the Vishnan/Shivan relation is only like the Vorlon/Shadow one on the surface. Vishnans in BP didnt go around trying to force everyone into obedience and the Shivans don't play favorites either.

As for the UEF, so far my only understanding of them is that they are the controlling body in Sol. I'm sure I'll know more as I read up on the Blue Planet storyline. Just finished reading The Rift since that was the first one that a link showed me. Somewhere I hope to find at least some insight to describe in at least SOME detail why the GTVA would make war on Sol in the first place other than 'forcibly' making them part of the GTVA.

Good story so far.

[-Norbert-]

Your in luck. General Battuta wrote a total of four proses (or at least released four proses) so far. One of them deals with the reasons for the GTVA invasion and makes the whole situation very plausible, even though they the GTVA still acts immorally. But as they say "Desperate times breed desperate people".

You should try to hover the mouse over the "hosted..." button at the top of the screen. That way you can reach the Homepages of the mods hosted at HLP, among them Blue Planet.
Or just click this link http://blueplanet.hard-light.net/ 
And heres a direct link into the prose section of the BP website: http://blueplanet.hard-light.net/prose.html

[Leeko]

Yeah, you should read the prose on the BP site. Hats off to General Battuta!
 

[Aardwolf]

Enlightenment is what you make of it. The UEF is based on a monolithic single-religion nonelected power structure. Chew on that thought for awhile, and what it means. The UEF essentially has the same power structure as Iran. Even if it's a relatively benevolent group of rulers, it's still not the democractically elected areligious Terran portion of the GTVA.

Too, the UEF seems to be confused by the concept of warmaking. Their culture just doesn't seem designed to accomodate large-scale violence or the need for it. This is a terrible, fatal flaw in a universe full of Shivans. Humanity needs its warriors to survive, and the UEF does not appear equipped to provide them.

And that's a reason the UEF is less "enlightened" HOW?

[SpardaSon21]

Well, if the Shivans decide to show up in Sol, they certainly will be enlightened by Shivan beams.  A capacity for violence can be a good thing sometimes.

[Rodo]

Well, if the Shivans decide to show up in Sol, they certainly will be enlightened by Shivan beams.

LOL

[-Norbert-]

But they do have a military, and considering they are able to hold off the superiour forces of the GTVA for years a quite capable one at that.
They are just reluctant to use it if there is any alternative.

If the Shivans come back, I think that would qualify as "no alternative"....

[SpardaSon21]

From my understanding of the UEF their military isn't as good as it could be.  They use mainly frigates, have no beams, and are relatively small and under-funded, not to mention most UEF pilots are reservists.  They are really lucky to have held on for as long as they have, considering the GTVA's advantages in both capital ships, weaponry, and veteran, career pilots.

[General Battuta]

Well, UEF fighters and gunships rock hard. They're built for short-range, high-intensity operations in a single system, so while they're not as cheap or maintainable as GTVA ships, they can really do some damage.

Plus their supply lines are much shorter and their infrastructure a bit more centralized and built up.

It's a decent strategic balance. (Tactically, their torpedoes are pretty formidable too.)

All that said, the war at the beginning of War in Heaven has only lasted eighteen months - it's an incredibly high-intensity conflict compared to something like WWII, though the number of people involved is much smaller. Billions of lives and entire planets are riding on the shoulders of relatively few pilots and crew on both side, and as the for the physical intensity, a bomber pilot might expect to expend more raw destructive force in one sortie than all of World War II put together (maybe; I haven't done the ballpark figures. But it sure sounds cool.)

[jkalltheway]

Personally, i've never been a fan of the whole dualism thing that seems to be in our culture. Something about dualism just gets me. Good vs evil, that whole jazz. Never been a big advocate.

[Leeko]

Who the hell needs beams to win a war? We beat the Shivans without beams once, you know.

[Stormkeeper]

... Eldar council ...

I was wondering when someone would slip up.

Anyway. NGTMR was right when he said the the UEF wouldn't survive in a universe full of Shivans. They aren't really prepared for war. Though I'll give you that the UEF is pretty well equipped if you think about how they're drawing solely on the resources of Earth (which probably be severly depleted by now) and any surrounding asteroids or wrecks from the Great War.

Who the hell needs beams to win a war? We beat the Shivans without beams once, you know.

At the cost of losing Sol, just to start the bill.

[General Battuta]

I severely doubt that the resources of the Sol system are anywhere near depleted. The gas giants, asteroid belt, and various rocky planetoids provide truly gargantuan quantities of raw material, and unlike the rest of the GTVA, Sol has a uniformly well-developed infrastructure with a lot of depth.