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Off-Topic Discussion => Gaming Discussion => Topic started by: Thor on May 11, 2007, 09:45:52 am

Title: Death of the Joystick?
Post by: Thor on May 11, 2007, 09:45:52 am
http://www.twitchguru.com/2007/05/10/the_death_of_the_joystick/ (http://www.twitchguru.com/2007/05/10/the_death_of_the_joystick/)

A thought provoking read (props for the mention of Freespace), even though the article ended positively with a review of a few current joysticks, it made me concerned for a few points

1) the lack of mainstream games...in all the traditional sim genres.
2) the "demise" of former big players in the joystick market.
3) Dumbing down of gameplay (i'm looking at you freelancer!)
4) the "winner" of the reviews was the old Logitech Force 3D Pro....its seemingly been around for years, as has the the Saitek X52...and while not sure, the CH products look like they are archaic

I haven't used a joystick with freespace in years, preferring my Wingman controller.  But the article is a reminder of the importance of the genre we all love, and how its fading is affecting the rest of the computer gaming world...

Thoughts and opinions...GO!
Title: Re: Death of the Joystick?
Post by: Herra Tohtori on May 11, 2007, 10:13:59 am
http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,47038.0.html (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,47038.0.html)

Thread merge?


Anyhow, as was pointed out in theother thread, the writer seemingly doesn't know much about joysticks. The emphazis on the test has apparently been on ergonomy and button placement, not durability, quality, accuracy and other features that actualyl affect the usability of a stick in the long term much more than how it sits in the hand.

Logitech's sticks would be good if they all actually worked, but their quality control is abysmally random apparently. Some keep going long enough to count as viable products, some break up during warranty, and the worst ones slowly degrade right after the warranty closes up. :ick:

CH sticks may look archaic but they are good solid hardware, but relatively expensive. Saitek sticks are the best budget solution available at the moment AFAIK. Logitech... Steer clear if you can, you might get lucky with the stick but then again, you may not. There is a reason why they are cheapest of the bunch, although Saitek sticks are not much more expensive and are generally more reliable.


And about joysticks dying... not. It's just that the gaming trend doesn't have as much use for joysticks as some years ago, that's true. But as it was said in the article, trends change cyclically. Besides, MS Flight Simulator series is *not* alone as a game that needs a joystick. Take for example IL-2 Sturmovik series... I actually think it attracts more players than actual flight simulators, because it's a game where you have set objectives (to shoot the enemy down and protect your own), not just a simulator with the purpose of just flying around and oggling at pretty scenes... :nervous:
Title: Re: Death of the Joystick?
Post by: StarSlayer on May 11, 2007, 11:00:31 am
Ah Logitech, i could complain about how crappy the stick is but, this sums it up so succinctly.


http://afrotechmods.com/reallycheap/joystickthrottle/ghettothrottle.htm
Title: Re: Death of the Joystick?
Post by: Cyker on May 11, 2007, 11:58:00 am
It's just a symptom of the current games market as they say in the article.

What's the last main-stream flight/space sim you've seen?!

It's only really the indeps that make games like that these days, but sadly most of them don't come even close to the SCP+MVP in terms of quality.

Can't take the article seriously 'tho - That guy didn't even review a Cougar damnit! ;)

And yeah, Saitek sticks >>>> Logitech in all areas, including the weird-looking department ;)

CH 'sticks are nice - Virtually indestructable, but they have the same problem as the TM Cougar in that moving between the up/down vs left/right axis is not smooth.

's one thing I love about Saiteks and esp. the old MS Sidewinders - They use a single spring, so you get perfectly uniform tension ALL the way round. Don't understand why other companies don't do that (It BETTER not be patents FFS!)

Thrustmaster are one of the biggest disappointments - Aside from the Cougar, they haven't made a decent stick in decades, and considering they were one of the best major 'stick makers in the past, it's sad to see them making bad quality consumer-grade sticks and competing at the level of cheap ****ty generic 'stick makers :(


I think I'll be keeping my SW3D Pro for a looong time....
Title: Re: Death of the Joystick?
Post by: Chimp on May 11, 2007, 12:22:22 pm
I'll vouch for Saitek on the reliability front. I have my Saitek cyborg 3d Gold sitting in front of me in good a new condition. A good joystick can make all the difference in a game. Infact when i bought this joystick originally, i went back and played all the games that i could use it on over again.

I remeber one joystick of such low quality that the wires were too short for the stick, so that if you moved the stick to much to one side it would rip them off.
Title: Re: Death of the Joystick?
Post by: Centrixo on May 11, 2007, 12:49:07 pm
Before these major companies creating these joysticks, i bought a joystick, An old joystick about 11 years old now, it still works in perfect order, exactly as good as the day i bought it, the reliability is absoutly superb, maybe because i looked after it for such along time. it came from an old company long defunct, i am not not certain of the company because over the years the company logo wore off the joysticks plastic cover.

I also have a gamepad in red from a company called Esaix i have had this gamepad for roughly the same time. again i am not sure of the company.

People who critisise the other games because do not use joysticks are the one's who are scared to get out of their comfort zones and afraid to try new things. i love any space game that involves fighting. hell i have even played a space sim with a steering wheel at one point.
Title: Re: Death of the Joystick?
Post by: Dysko on May 11, 2007, 01:21:52 pm
I also remember old, undestroyable joysticks... The first joystick I used with my 386 lasted something like 7 years (basically, all the lifespan of my 386 and my 486, that I continued to use even in deep 1998). Probably it would be still working, if my 486 didn't crash and had to buy newer PCs uncompatible with that.

And BTW, I couldn't use a joystick with only 3 buttons with Il-2 1946 and X-Plane...
Title: Re: Death of the Joystick?
Post by: Nuke on May 11, 2007, 07:47:12 pm
saiteks might be physically sturdy and things wont break off of it. but the deadzone just seems to be getting bigger and bigger on my x52. and im not liking it very much anymore. i know when i got it i was totally amazed but now i hardly get it out of the closet. i post the same rant in every thread so im sure weve all heard it. but it seems like they dont even care about the inner workings anymore, they use some off the shelf components, and focus entirely on the layout and apearance. seems like alot of them spend so much time reinventing the wheel in product development. rather id like to see the reverse, stop making the product look cool and work on the internals. ive seen the inside of the x52, its not top of the line worksmanship. sensors are always low in off the shelf models. the parts could be bought off mouser for less than 30 bucks. i dont want a stick made by a company that spends more money on the plastic moldings than more impotant components like the gimbals or the sensors.
Title: Re: Death of the Joystick?
Post by: Herra Tohtori on May 11, 2007, 08:05:10 pm
I haven't actually noticed any actual deadzone increase in my Saitek Cyborg Evo, but the mechanical components have loosened so that the top of the handle now moves in a 1 cm diameter circle before the parts finally start to move the sensors. It doesn't matter too much when you get used to it, but it obviously isn't as good as new. Perhaps I should've added some kind of grease to the base around which the stick rotation moves about... :sigh:


I want a joystick made of steel with the handle forged into the form of Logitech Extreme 3D handle. It should have optical sensors for at least X,Y and twist handle and preferably also two throttles and possibly trim wheels. Preferably with a single gimbal spring system to center it, but anything goes if it works. :p

It should weigh about 2 kg, possibly with added lead weighs to the base to get the CoG near the table. Force feedback is not necessary, but if it is there, it should not increase deadzone of the stick or affect the movement in any way. Preferably the FF should be done with a hydraulic system, but if it's not possible, a system with high quality gears with minimum clearance is a must. :mad2:

Most likely I would pass the FF feature anyway. I have tried FF sticks and corresponding non-FF sticks and I gotta say I prefer the latter. :blah:
Title: Re: Death of the Joystick?
Post by: Mongoose on May 11, 2007, 08:26:24 pm
My 10-year-old Sidewinder 3D Pro is still going strong, and thanks to a member of the Descent community, I'm able to continue using it via USB.  I can't give enough praise for how well this stick performs. :)  (That being said, I also enjoy using my Cyborg Evo.)

What I find most puzzling about that article is its claim that the Sidewinder series wasn't able to be used in XP.  It's simply a matter of selecting Sidewinder Device from the game controllers menu.  My family's XP system has a sound card with a gameport, and I've never experienced any problems using my 3D Pro on it.
Title: Re: Death of the Joystick?
Post by: FlyingBadger on May 12, 2007, 01:11:02 am
Quote
What I find most puzzling about that article is its claim that the Sidewinder series wasn't able to be used in XP.
Hmm...that is bizarre, as I've been using my Sidewinder on several different XP computers and it hasn't complained once.  I've got one hooked up to the machine right now, as a matter of fact.
Title: Re: Death of the Joystick?
Post by: Chimp on May 12, 2007, 07:19:03 am
I also remember old, undestroyable joysticks... The first joystick I used with my 386 lasted something like 7 years (basically, all the lifespan of my 386 and my 486, that I continued to use even in deep 1998). Probably it would be still working, if my 486 didn't crash and had to buy newer PCs uncompatible with that.

And BTW, I couldn't use a joystick with only 3 buttons with Il-2 1946 and X-Plane...

Funny you say that, i've still got an ancient amstrad joystick from my 286. Now that thing was really a finger sized stick. Cream with two buttons. Used to play Dizzy games on it.

It still works, and so does the 286.
Title: Re: Death of the Joystick?
Post by: Cyker on May 12, 2007, 10:25:34 am
My 10-year-old Sidewinder 3D Pro is still going strong, and thanks to a member of the Descent community, I'm able to continue using it via USB.  I can't give enough praise for how well this stick performs. :)  (That being said, I also enjoy using my Cyborg Evo.)

What I find most puzzling about that article is its claim that the Sidewinder series wasn't able to be used in XP.  It's simply a matter of selecting Sidewinder Device from the game controllers menu.  My family's XP system has a sound card with a gameport, and I've never experienced any problems using my 3D Pro on it.
Ahh, you got one of Grendel's boxes then you lucky git! ;)
He and Koolbear are doing a second run... I hope I can get in on it!! :)

As for the compatibility, it seems to vary greatly depending on the thing you're plugging it into. I've had better luck with PCI sound cards vs mobo ports for instance.
Title: Re: Death of the Joystick?
Post by: Nuke on May 12, 2007, 03:26:00 pm
I also remember old, undestroyable joysticks... The first joystick I used with my 386 lasted something like 7 years (basically, all the lifespan of my 386 and my 486, that I continued to use even in deep 1998). Probably it would be still working, if my 486 didn't crash and had to buy newer PCs uncompatible with that.

And BTW, I couldn't use a joystick with only 3 buttons with Il-2 1946 and X-Plane...

Funny you say that, i've still got an ancient amstrad joystick from my 286. Now that thing was really a finger sized stick. Cream with two buttons. Used to play Dizzy games on it.

It still works, and so does the 286.

sounds like the machine i used to play elite on. they were built like bricks back then.

I haven't actually noticed any actual deadzone increase in my Saitek Cyborg Evo, but the mechanical components have loosened so that the top of the handle now moves in a 1 cm diameter circle before the parts finally start to move the sensors. It doesn't matter too much when you get used to it, but it obviously isn't as good as new. Perhaps I should've added some kind of grease to the base around which the stick rotation moves about... :sigh:


I want a joystick made of steel with the handle forged into the form of Logitech Extreme 3D handle. It should have optical sensors for at least X,Y and twist handle and preferably also two throttles and possibly trim wheels. Preferably with a single gimbal spring system to center it, but anything goes if it works. :p

It should weigh about 2 kg, possibly with added lead weighs to the base to get the CoG near the table. Force feedback is not necessary, but if it is there, it should not increase deadzone of the stick or affect the movement in any way. Preferably the FF should be done with a hydraulic system, but if it's not possible, a system with high quality gears with minimum clearance is a must. :mad2:

Most likely I would pass the FF feature anyway. I have tried FF sticks and corresponding non-FF sticks and I gotta say I prefer the latter. :blah:

i hear yea. id used machined aluminum for the gimbals though. industrial grade pots on direct shaft linkage to the gimal axes. maybe optical or hall sensors if you can implement them in a manor that doesnt require and gear linkages. geared linkages lead to gear wear and thus create bigger deadzones with use. springs, no. it pisses me off when people say they need bigger springs, infact take em out all together, instead use a variable tension clutch on the giblal axes so you can adjust it to the right tension to not move on its own. i dont need a spring to tell me where the middle is.

another thing, make its main shaft longer, like the stick in an airplane. then can put it on the floor and get a half a meter worth of range out of it. i never understood why people dont complain about only having 3 inches between your hand and the base, i want at least a couple feet. stup putting hats and thumb buttons at the top of the stick, they should be at thumb level. you know how many times i had to stop playing because my thumb started hurting.
Title: Re: Death of the Joystick?
Post by: Thor on May 13, 2007, 02:06:35 am
crap i missed that other thread...mine arguably was better titled though  :P

and i miss the era gone by when gaming was exclusively the territory of the joystick.  best one i ever used was held in the left hand (complete with ergonomic shape) had a button for the left index finger, and then the control stick was operated with the right...it was for my Amiga 1000.  Somewhere along the line things went crazy and started sprouting so many buttons it looked like a Picasso keyboard.
Title: Re: Death of the Joystick?
Post by: Centrixo on May 13, 2007, 05:57:05 am
Funny you say that, i've still got an ancient amstrad joystick from my 286. Now that thing was really a finger sized stick. Cream with two buttons. Used to play Dizzy games on it.

It still works, and so does the 286.

that 11 year old joystick i got, it's strikingly similar to what you just said.

what i did with that was remove anything that would cause tension in the joystick, along with my steering wheel. i want presision control not the deadzone, so i have absoutle control over what ever (personal liking) so that means no springs or weights or other aids.
Title: Re: Death of the Joystick?
Post by: MarkN on May 13, 2007, 10:02:21 am
Quote
  best one i ever used was held in the left hand (complete with ergonomic shape) had a button for the left index finger, and then the control stick was operated with the right

I have one of those. I think it was called a Logitech Stingray
Title: Re: Death of the Joystick?
Post by: Dysko on May 13, 2007, 11:57:24 am
WARNING! CRAPPY PAINT ART INCOMING! :nervous:

I haven't found any image of my old joystick on the net, so I can't tell you which model was. I tried to draw it in Paint:
(http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/6518/oldstickmz1.jpg)
It had a button on the top of the stick, and 2 buttons on the top-left corner (which I tried to draw). It was smaller than 15 cm IIRC.
Title: Re: Death of the Joystick?
Post by: Nuke on May 13, 2007, 12:34:54 pm
those were the days, you only had 2 axes, but they were damn good. of course in the 286-386 era, there werent many games that needed more than 2.
Title: Re: Death of the Joystick?
Post by: Thor on May 13, 2007, 04:49:32 pm
mine wasn't made by logitech....i don't think...

Closest i could find was this guy....
(http://www.cedmagic.com/tech-info/remote-control/epyx-500xj-joystick.jpg)

except mine was covered in a grey squishy plastic, and had a black button and a black skinnier stick

I have also had an old wingman (which is what i first played Freespace with), twas the best joystick i've ever used, and sadly broke from to many DIVE! DIVE! HIT YOUR BURNERS PILOTS! situations
(http://homepage.univie.ac.at/peter.wienerroither/bazar/LogitechWingman.jpg)

and am now currently using Wingman Extreme gamepad and occaisionally an Attack 3 (which i picked up for $10cdn) cause it handles somewhat poorly.

(http://www.joy-stick.net/images/extreme.gif)(http://shopping.redorbit.com/providers/ingram/inquire/img_zip/Thumbnail/10146293.jpg)
Title: Re: Death of the Joystick?
Post by: Dysko on May 14, 2007, 08:07:19 am
and am now currently using Wingman Extreme gamepad and occaisionally an Attack 3 (which i picked up for $10cdn) cause it handles somewhat poorly.
I had both of them.
The Extreme got his sensor broken after 2 years, and the Attack 3 always worked in a crappy way.
Title: Re: Death of the Joystick?
Post by: Nuke on May 14, 2007, 05:38:51 pm
i had a buddy who had a wingman extreme. it was a good stick but it wasnt that good. especially sence i played descent and it wasnt nearly adequit. i had to keep my left hand on the keyboards which made the throttle useless. i wanted to go with the high end model at the time, which had a couple knobs on the side for extra axes. but i could never find one.

i had a similar problem with the sidewinder force feedback (first version), but it had plenty of controls to play descent with. and at the time that was the most i had required. i used the 4 buttons on the left hand rest as my slide controls. i didnt like using the hat for that due to thumb ache. it didnt have any recentering springs and relyed on the force feedback to center it. as far as i recall it was the only stick with adjustable centering tension. i set it to none when i played flight sims. flying choppers you really dont want springs because your hand will wear out just maintaining straight and level flight. but it was the stick i played fs2 with.

it finally died because some cat i lived with decided to chew up the cable. so for awhile i just used a gravis gamepad, which i bought for my laptop untill i picked up an x36 (or was it an x45 i cant remember). im gonna go with ch next time around, they look well built.

looking at ch's industrial side reveals some cool gizmos. such as this
http://www.chproducts.com/oem/finger_ip_desktop.html
http://www.chproducts.com/oem/finger_desktop_mjfj.html
3 axis hall effect stick. though they neglect to mention the bit-accuracy of their adcs. infact it seems they have a whole bunch of custom options for designing a professional grade desktop stick, bet it costs more than a fighterstick, pro pedals and throttle combined.
Title: Re: Death of the Joystick?
Post by: Thor on May 15, 2007, 12:06:50 am
i never like the three axis sticks...just give me left-right, forward-back
Title: Re: Death of the Joystick?
Post by: Nuke on May 15, 2007, 02:27:11 am
indeed id rather have the yaw axis as pedals, but we make do.
Title: Re: Death of the Joystick?
Post by: Herra Tohtori on May 15, 2007, 03:38:04 am
The reason why I would prefer my gaming peripherals to be all-metal constructions:

(http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/478/crackedgreyah6.th.png) (http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/478/crackedgreyah6.png)

That, my friends, is the part in my Cyborg Evo that limits the stick's range of motion... There's a bloody crack with a triangular chunk missing on the gimbal base. It doesn't affect playing as far as I can tell, but interesting nevertheless. It's on the Y-axis back pressure side, so it's most likely simply a result of my frantic maneuvering in BtRL... :lol:

Perhaps I should loosen up my gaming hand just a little bit... :lol: I know the ship doesn't move any faster even if I rip the joystick apart like Captain Fukov, but I simply forget that while playing. Similar damage has already been inflicted to the trigger sensor, which caved in due to overabundant use of brute force, but that was solved by duct tape packers both inside and outside the stick... :lol:
Title: Re: Death of the Joystick?
Post by: Roanoke on May 15, 2007, 06:00:27 am
My Sidewinder pro must >10yrs old, is dustier than an egyptian tomb but it just won't die!! It's like the HiLux from Top-Gear. Killing your Sidewinder could be a game initself.

Loosing my gameport ->usb adaptor was a blow though......
Title: Re: Death of the Joystick?
Post by: Nuke on May 15, 2007, 06:21:58 am
think about it this way. most joysticks refresh at most 30 times a second. your monitor, with a good vid card can do twice that. so theres a small amount of delay between what you see is going on and what your trying to make happen. if your slamming your stick hard enough to do damage then yhoure going from one side to the other in about 5-10 position refreshes. also with the game physics, you must accelerate to the turning speed specified so in those 3-6 refreshes your ship has barely even started to turn and at mose have only turned a couple of degrees. slamming the stick wont make you turn faster.

youre also loosing control because youre not seeing the immediate results of your motion. say you have a ship in front of you, and it pulls a hard turn so that it is to your 10 oclock and at about 15 degrees of pitch above you. if you slam your stick its gonna jam in the corner and youre crosshair will be in a different spot than you want to be in when youre turn has completed. some agressiveness is required, but you should know where your field of motion ends so you can stop moving your hand.

if those gimbals were steel there would probibly be alot of metal filings in the inner workings of the thing. metal is not indestructable. what they need to do is lign the inner edge limiter with vulcanized rubber, id use steel in the gimbals and the limiter plte but id also use other materials to protect the metal.

i sorta blame spring centered joysticks on this. youre hand knows where its at and can feel the angle of the stick. also you have the screen as a clue to what youre doing. id rather have a friction clutch so that he stick would stay where its at, unless youre hand moves it. if you want to fly a chopper or aim your turret in mw2, you had to cut youre springs.
Title: Re: Death of the Joystick?
Post by: Ulala on May 17, 2007, 03:53:27 pm
I still use my Saitek Cyborg 3D Gold from 6 years ago for Battlefield 2142.
Title: Re: Death of the Joystick?
Post by: Roanoke on May 19, 2007, 05:37:36 am
First time I played SystemShock2, maybe the 3rd "proper pc", as apposed to console, game I'd played and I was like "this is ****, I can't use the joystick!!"

I soon learned the error of my ways.
Title: Re: Death of the Joystick?
Post by: vamitul on May 21, 2007, 01:05:04 pm
just brought me a Trust  Predator Gm2500 . so far, it's great. the only problems are the very hard springs in it (after one hour of playing my hand is sore) and the deadzone.
Title: Re: Death of the Joystick?
Post by: Dysko on May 21, 2007, 01:37:29 pm
just brought me a Trust  Predator Gm2500 . so far, it's great. the only problems are the very hard springs in it (after one hour of playing my hand is sore) and the deadzone.
I didn't find the springs so hard.
However, the throttle died in 6 months.
Title: Re: Death of the Joystick?
Post by: Wobble73 on May 22, 2007, 07:55:55 am
just brought me a Trust  Predator Gm2500 . so far, it's great. the only problems are the very hard springs in it (after one hour of playing my hand is sore) and the deadzone.

It's SOOOOOOO tempting to say something about having weak wrists, but I shall refrain from doing so!  :lol:
Title: Re: Death of the Joystick?
Post by: vamitul on May 22, 2007, 08:52:03 am
"your sarcasm has been noted, Mackie"
Title: Re: Death of the Joystick?
Post by: haloboy100 on May 25, 2007, 10:08:32 pm
Freelancer ruined the joystick...

i meen they make a game that you can't even use the joystick with, and they call it a SPACE SIM!?!?

i want the thrill of battle and the feel as my ship as it flies through space blasting any enemy scum to dust with my SUPER-UBER-MEGATRON-LASERS OF L33T DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM!!!!  :lol:


...ok so i played freespace 2 for 72 hours streight....go figure
Title: Re: Death of the Joystick?
Post by: StarSlayer on May 25, 2007, 11:52:34 pm
...ok so i played freespace 2 for 72 hours streight....go figure

As many people from Pan Asia have proven this can only lead to death.  The human body cannot play video games for that many hours without expiring :p

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/4137782.stm (Nice job on the game picture :P)

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2002/10/19/1034561356377.html

Lets face it your body needs to eat, sleep, and BM.
Title: Re: Death of the Joystick?
Post by: Herra Tohtori on May 26, 2007, 12:02:03 am
Quote from: Bioware
On Baldur's Gate 2 hints that were shown after loading, saving, resting etc.: "While your characters don't have to eat, you do. We don't want to lose any dedicated players."

Ain't that true... ;7
Title: Re: Death of the Joystick?
Post by: Mika on May 28, 2007, 03:44:00 pm
Heh, the joysticks. The digital ones that were used with Spectrum and C64 were quite bad, didn't last that long, at least after Track & Field or something similar when your 120 kg uncle decided to have a try... Now that I think of it, its quite amazing I never noticed that the character would only turn with max rate or then not at all. Didn't seem to bother the game dynamics.

Cutting off the nostalgia, the joystick I bought for that P233 (1996 I suppose) turned out to be the best damn joystick I ever bought. I think that the CH Flightstick Pro has been manufactured at least from 1991 (Falcon 3.0 has it in its control set, along with the Thrustmaster). Quite a feat for design of that era. Still sitting next to me, ready for a session of Falcon 4 AF. Trusty old thing. I haven't even noticed any sensitivity losses, maybe there is a little more noise if you look at the inputs but that can be adjusted with dead-zone and recalibration.

According to my eyes, the thing which breaks the joysticks is slamming it hard to the other side. With a joystick that pits excessive forces against your force, the urge to do that is much higher. My old room mate had his shiny new joystick broken and tried this old CH. His only comment was that it felt too easy to move the thing. A matter of sensitivity, perhaps? I never had a problem with that, though. Calibrating the joystick so that it hits the software limit before the physical limit along any axis will surely help also. I have never used force-feedback systems, I cannot comment on those.

Funny thing those helicopter simulations, I never noticed I had to keep the collective in a single position when flying Janes' Longbow. I apparently did, but it belonged to the excitement of staying away from the SAMs that it went off unregistered. As a side note, it was the most boring military simulator I ever played.

Also, I recall some unfortunate bombing flight in F4AF where the bird took some serious damage from a nearby flak and partially lost the control surfaces. Thougths went somehow like this when using the trims: "Pitch control... Yaw control... Roll control... straighten dammit!" "Pitch and Roll to maximum!" "Counter the rotation and nose!" I still had to apply some force on the joystick during the flight back to base. That took one hour, by the way, and was not boring, quite contrary: "How the hell I'm going to put this back to the plate??!!" The landing is another story, that involving quite creative use of rudder and throttle, and a couple of missed approaches.

I only say you have weak hands. [/Slams door and runs away]

Mika
Title: Re: Death of the Joystick?
Post by: Nuke on May 29, 2007, 05:14:22 pm
i think the only difference with the newer ch hardware is the inclusion of a micro controller to process the signal data to convert it to digital for usb. im very intrested to know what the bit depth per axis is on the thing is. other than that i dont think the hardware has changed much.

one thing i noticed about chopper sims, and i was hopping airports in fs2004, is that using a twist handle on the x-52 or any other stick for that mater, is no replacement for a good set of rudder pedals. i remember the rocker on the saitek x36 was even worse. i went as far as removing the spring on the twist handle of my old sidewinder ff, which worked well in fs, but not that well in descent games. so i want the rudder on pedals where it belongs. so ch is the direction im going.