[rubixcube]

Sorry if this has already been covered, but there's something I always found odd about the BP:AoA mission Fallen Angel. Orestes control states "every time we get the upper hand on the Lucifer, she jumps out and repairs herself for another attack". How is this possible? During the mission "Curse of Prescience" the Lucifer clearly outmatches the Orestes and their was no way the Terrans could have gained the upper hand.

Is there something I'm missing? Or was this just done for plot purposes?

[MatthTheGeek]

The Lucifer outmatches the Orestes because the Orestes is starting to be in dire needs or resupply and repairs, and is probably starting to run out of fighters and bombers to throw at the Lucy. Which was not as much the case in previous attacks.

[The E]

Also remember that Curse of Prescience is a nightmare; possibly one induced by Vishnans. It does not claim to be an accurate representation of reality.

[Scotty]

Well, that much is debatable.  It certainly claims to be an accurate representation of reality with respect to the consequences of not coming to the Orestes's aid.

[-Norbert-]

Only in so far that without help the Orestes will eventually be destroyed, not that it will go from 100% to 0% in a single attack.

[General Battuta]

Sorry if this has already been covered, but there's something I always found odd about the BP:AoA mission Fallen Angel. Orestes control states "every time we get the upper hand on the Lucifer, she jumps out and repairs herself for another attack". How is this possible? During the mission "Curse of Prescience" the Lucifer clearly outmatches the Orestes and their was no way the Terrans could have gained the upper hand.

Is there something I'm missing? Or was this just done for plot purposes?

Taken Fallen Angel as Lucifer Fight #3 (picking that number out of a hat.) Orestes Control is referring to previous Lucifer Fights #1 and #2. "Curse of Prescience" was a prescient dream about the outcome of Fight #3 if you don't arrive to help. Fallen Angel is Fight #3 with your intervention.

[rubixcube]

Okay, Thanks Battuta, I'll accept that explanation

[SaltyWaffles]

Sorry if this has already been covered, but there's something I always found odd about the BP:AoA mission Fallen Angel. Orestes control states "every time we get the upper hand on the Lucifer, she jumps out and repairs herself for another attack". How is this possible? During the mission "Curse of Prescience" the Lucifer clearly outmatches the Orestes and their was no way the Terrans could have gained the upper hand.

Is there something I'm missing? Or was this just done for plot purposes?

Taken Fallen Angel as Lucifer Fight #3 (picking that number out of a hat.) Orestes Control is referring to previous Lucifer Fights #1 and #2. "Curse of Prescience" was a prescient dream about the outcome of Fight #3 if you don't arrive to help. Fallen Angel is Fight #3 with your intervention.

I'm still trying to figure that dynamic out--can Shivan destroyers just fully repair themselves without logistics vessels/drydocks in a short amount of time? Especially given that the Lucifer would likely take a full salvo from a Raynor, a Chimera, a Bellerophon, and a Hyperion in the opening moments of the fight--even for the Lucifer, that's gotta hurt. If that group of ships is so outmatched by just the Lucifer and a Demon (such that the ultimate outcome would be inevitable)--even with the full support of an Anemoi--wouldn't that be a bad mark on the record of the TEI's next gen of ships? And why bother going for the Lucifer at all with just fighters and bombers, if the Lucy's shielding effectively nullifies Cyclops-level bombs, missiles, and any fighter-based primary cannon (save, perhaps, the Kayser/Balor, if only because all the others are related to the Prometheus and other FS1 weapons that were stated to not work)?

But yeah, the dream sequence part is totally justified--an induced nightmare that only needed to make sense symbolically for Sam to come to his conclusion. And, well, hey, from Sam's perspective, he leads a Vishnan task force to save the Orestes, then leads a bomber force to save the Orestes again right afterwards, then provides escort to save the Orestes (and the rest of the battlegroup) from waves of Shivan bombers after that. Guess he may have been right all along...

[Scotty]

Assumes that the Lucifer actually took damage in the engagements it was driven off.  That is not necessarily the case.  Even to the Shivans, the Lucifer is clearly a valuable asset, and not one to be thrown away for no gain whatsoever.  If the situation is lost before the Lucifer herself takes significant damage, it stands to reason that the ship would escape.

[rubixcube]

That is true, although it's possible they have more. The lucy takes quite a bit of damage before it jumps out if you fail to destroy it.

[General Battuta]

I think it's cool to speculate about. It's possible there were additional destroyers as well.

[Phantom Hoover]

i love how the orestes, a chimera and a bellerophon were able to hold off at least two destroyers, tons of fighters and god knows what else, after having spent days without any support whatsoever beyond a single anemoi

[Klaustrophobia]

"a single anemoi" has been stated to have the logistical capacity of three dockyards.

[General Battuta]

i love how the orestes, a chimera and a bellerophon were able to hold off at least two destroyers, tons of fighters and god knows what else, after having spent days without any support whatsoever beyond a single anemoi

Well they better be able to, given that they're fighting ships they were specifically designed to outmatch, and they have the support of 'a single Anemoi' which is a huge amount of logistics.

If they couldn't that would indicate Tev fleet doctrine has completely failed.

[NGTM-1R]

Assumes that the Lucifer actually took damage in the engagements it was driven off.  That is not necessarily the case.  Even to the Shivans, the Lucifer is clearly a valuable asset, and not one to be thrown away for no gain whatsoever.  If the situation is lost before the Lucifer herself takes significant damage, it stands to reason that the ship would escape.

On the other hand, the Lucifer is also the clear priority target as both the most powerful Shivan ship on the field and the main source of Shivan fightercraft, so the idea that they could lose several battles without the Lucifer taking a lot of fire somewhere along the way is hard to sustain.

Really, the only reason that would make sense there is they pulled the plug after the Orestes snarfled their escorts, and if they launch more attacks after losing enough of their escort force to break off the first time, there's a level of incipient stupidity to it. It seems easier to believe the Lucifer has greater capability for self-repair.

[-Norbert-]

Maybe they held the Lucifer back, our of range and put their other ships in between the GTVA vessels and the Lucy.
When they ran out of escort ships, they finally put the Lucifer into the front row, and that is when the Orestes would have lost, without help.

I know it's not exactly standard Shivan tactics to be so defensive, but if there is any consistancy with the Shivans, it's their lack of consistancy.

[NGTM-1R]

When they ran out of escort ships, they finally put the Lucifer into the front row, and that is when the Orestes would have lost, without help.

But then why break off the first time? Either escorts matter or they don't. If they don't the Lucy's going to keep coming without them rather than break off. If they do, losing them and choosing to continue the fight offensively rather than pulling back to wait for your incoming reinforcements isn't very smart. Entirely Shivan, arguably, but still not smart.

I suppose you could say that the Orestes broke off the previous engagements, but given Shivan subspace superiority, I don't think that would work as well. (I don't think there's an option to justify the Orestes having maneuvered itself in such a a way that the Lucifer is now forced to fight after it's withdrawn from previous battles, but it's been awhile since I played Fallen Angel so my exact recall of the dialogue is hazy.) The easiest thing to justify with both sides as rational actors still seems to be the Lucifer has a greater ability to repair in the field.

Whether the Shivans are rational actors is of course up for debate.

[Scotty]

Given that we have, in either universe of BP canon, never seen more than one Lucifer per universe, it could be very much a unique ship.  In that case, the escorts don't matter when compared to its safety, and when the escorts are beaten it withdraws to avoid a useless push.  The Lucifer becomes, in effect, the gold-standard when the currency being exchanged is effective combat capability.  As soon as the Orestes battlegroup over draws its line of credit (makes a tactical error of significance), the Lucifer comes to collect.

[NGTM-1R]

Given that we have, in either universe of BP canon, never seen more than one Lucifer per universe, it could be very much a unique ship.  In that case, the escorts don't matter when compared to its safety, and when the escorts are beaten it withdraws to avoid a useless push.  The Lucifer becomes, in effect, the gold-standard when the currency being exchanged is effective combat capability.  As soon as the Orestes battlegroup over draws its line of credit (makes a tactical error of significance), the Lucifer comes to collect.

The engagement the Lucifer actually fights is probably the worst one it could have asked for; head-on into the Orestes and escorts' fire, giving them time to reorient for maximum effectiveness and deploy extra fightercraft, doing all possible work with its own beams rather than offloading any responsibility to bombers, and with no other ships to provide a damage sump.

So that argument doesn't hold up very well at all, first because of the lack of an obvious tactical error that the Lucifer is exploiting in the event, and second because the Lucifer clearly commits to fighting straight through the worst the Orestes battlegroup can throw at it without escort. If it was willing to go all-in here with all its escort already dead, it should have been more willing to go all-in against the worst the Orestes can do when it still had escorts.

[crizza]

For me, the Lucy was allways a "Oi, upstarts, let's bomb their planets" while the Sath was "WUUUUT?! Lucy gone? Time to burn the house of the upstarts, the house of their family, friends and the house of their dog, their dogs family and so on".
So, the Lucy mopped the floor in AoA, but then there was the Orestes all about "Fine, I was build to kill a Juggernaut, so bring it imbecile!"...