Author Topic: WOW....simply WOW  (Read 11318 times)

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Offline NGTM-1R

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That just leaves the problem that culturally they're totally unprepared and probably unwilling to fight a war. :P
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Offline General Battuta

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That is arguably a problem.

 

Offline Thaeris

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In the great words of cadet proctors everywhere, "The beatings will continue until morale improves!"

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It's the Duke Nukem Forever of prophecies..."


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Offline Stormkeeper

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You could do it the commisarial way.
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Offline -Norbert-

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... Eldar council ...
I was wondering when someone would slip up. :p
What can I say. I'm a real fan of WH40K Eldar  ;)

Anyway. NGTMR was right when he said the the UEF wouldn't survive in a universe full of Shivans. They aren't really prepared for war.

I'm not so sure about that. In both FreeSpace official campaigns the Shivans capital ships were far superiour to the GTA, PVN and GTVA ships. And even in BluePlanet your capships only survive most battles because Sam disarmed the Shivan beams.
So it would make a lot of sense to use gunships and powerfull bombers instead of wasting massive amounts of resources and lives compressed into a single big target for the Shivans to blow up.
I think the Colossus showed very well that "bigger Bigger BIGGER" is the wrong tactic against the Shivans.

 

Offline eliex

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Speaking of W40k, the "bigger is betta" way of thinking certainly works for the Orks . . . as least with large enough numbers that is.  :p

 

Offline -Norbert-

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Perhaps, but Orks don't have to fight Shivans.

 

Offline NGTM-1R

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So it would make a lot of sense to use gunships and powerfull bombers instead of wasting massive amounts of resources and lives compressed into a single big target for the Shivans to blow up.

It's not really a question of tactics, although having seen what happened to the Renjian I'm not as sure as you that the UEF could fight the Shivans successfully. UEF society is based on an ideal of peace and harmony, of cooperation rather than competition. Even unaware of the state of the universe after the nodes collapsed, they did not maintain their readiness against what for all they knew would be a universe's worth of Shivans. (Recall the FS1 ending. "I'm told we can expect them again, but not in my lifetime.") The UEF is not equipped for large-scale war mentally or culturally. It's not in their makeup. Faced with a choice to destroy or be destroyed, they will not even see that the option to destroy exists.

The UEF isn't simply "not war-minded". They can't get war-minded. With the universe beyond one of endless hate and hostility, Humanity needs its warriors, those who will condone the use of violence to solve problems, who will make the choice for war to the knife and the knife to the hilt. This is something the UEF cannot do and cannot produce.

And that's a reason the UEF is less "enlightened" HOW?

Enlightenment is what you make of it. The only precept standing in the way here is that violence is wrong. Facing something called "The Great Destroyer" and defeating it, however, is a worthy act by any standard. There can be no peace with the Shivans that we know. Violence is a part and parcel of all living things. Enlightment, here, in this universe, demands the knowledge that the time has come when the violence of the human condition will at last serve a purpose, that nothing less awful will serve. The GTVA is built on the concept of taking a stand against the endless silent, dark hatred that is Shivan xenocide. That is enlightenment of its own sort.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2009, 06:28:00 am by NGTM-1R »
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Offline -Norbert-

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The GTVA is built on the concept of taking a stand against the endless silent, dark hatred that is Shivan xenocide. That is enlightenment of its own sort.
I call that self preservasion.
The GTA and the PVN didn't get together for any enlightened reasons, but simply because they had no other choice, if they wanted to survive. And the result of this forced joining was the NTF rebellion and the growing animosity between the two races.

Don't get me wrong, the GTVA does have some noble ideals behind it, but the fact that they stand against those that want to destroy them isn't a noble ideal, but the most basic urge of every living being down to microscopic lifeforms - survival.
And while the GTVA does have principles, they seem to value practicalities more, hence the war with the UEF. Wether this is good or evil is really a matter of personal opinion. I think there should be a balance. Following your principles no matter the cost can be just as bad as doing only the most practical thing.

Maybe the UEF citicens are naive when it comes to the neccesity of force, but they are still far closer to enlightenment than the GTVA in my opinion.

 

Offline Leeko

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That just leaves the problem that culturally they're totally unprepared and probably unwilling to fight a war. :P

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Faced with a choice to destroy or be destroyed, they will not even see that the option to destroy exists.

So, uh, if they aren't aware fighting is an option then would you mind telling me what WiH is about? :lol:
Even without the desire for war, the will to live will be enough when in combination with their heavier emphasis on smaller ships when pitted against Shivans. Even if they had to hold off at Sol, they could just dig in and set up a massive blockade at the node. You gotta remember, Earth was the heart of GTA industry until it was cut off by Lucy's explosion. They could last quite a long while on their own, with their well-established infrastructure and industrial base. And if things got really desperate, they could always blow up the Sol gate. Of course, that's if it hadn't already stabilized the node, as the Knossos device in Gamma Draconis had. But that had 8,000 years to do so.

All of that aside, the fact that by the time WiH begins the GTVA-UEF war is 18 months old proves that they've had the will and ability to hold out against the GTVA. So there's really no base for saying that they're unwilling or unable to use force. If that were the case they would have surrendered or, at the very least passively resisted a la Ghandi. The existence of the UEF's navy is also a contradiction to that in and of itself. Normally docile animals become ferocious when cornered, and space-hippies are evidently no different. :P

There's also another element that you all seem to be forgetting - morale. Look at it from the GTVA's point of view. We're fighting humans again, and for the first time the GTVA is doing so without provocation. Hell, half the fleet from AoA defected on the spot. Any pilot with a sense of morality would be horribly demoralized by what he was doing.
And as for the UEF, they're fighting to defend their home - and succeeding against impossible odds. I'd think that defending one's homeworld would give one a great deal of ferocity in doing so. And holding out against a technologically and numerically superior enemy has to be great for morale once in a while.

Also, I second -Norbert-'s statements. :P
« Last Edit: August 07, 2009, 05:08:52 pm by Leeko »

 

Offline NGTM-1R

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So, uh, if they aren't aware fighting is an option then would you mind telling me what WiH is about? :lol:

Oh, they'll fight. But it'll be like Hannibal in the Punic wars. No matter how many times they are victorious on the battlefield they will never make the final push. They don't have the mindset or the capablity to truly go for the kill; it's not in their makeup. The UEF might be good defenders, but wars are not won by defensive action.

Even without the desire for war, the will to live will be enough when in combination with their heavier emphasis on smaller ships when pitted against Shivans.

Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune, or take up arms against a sea of troubles, and by opposing end them. Defensive warfare against the Shivans is a lost cause.

And if things got really desperate, they could always blow up the Sol gate. Of course, that's if it hadn't already stabilized the node, as the Knossos device in Gamma Draconis had.  But that had 8,000 years to do so.

Somebody is forgetting their basic FS history. The Knossos stablized the node in the short period after its actual activation. Weeks or perhaps a month at most.

All of that aside, the fact that by the time WiH begins the GTVA-UEF war is 18 months old proves that they've had the will and ability to hold out against the GTVA. So there's really no base for saying that they're unwilling or unable to use force. If that were the case they would have surrendered or, at the very least passively resisted a la Ghandi. The existence of the UEF's navy is also a contradiction to that in and of itself. Normally docile animals become ferocious when cornered, and space-hippies are evidently no different. :P

On the contrary. No modern state survives without some kind of armed force. The time period is not terribly relevant; we have no idea how the war has played out, what kind of forces the GTVA has actually commited to it, or how quickly the war is being prosecuted (though prose evidence suggests the GTVA is not making a rush of things), so drawing conclusions based on time is an irrevelance. Similarly, I never said that they will not fight; simply that they will never be good at it and never be able to make the kind of "total war" effort needed to prosecute a major armed conflict.

There's also another element that you all seem to be forgetting - morale. Look at it from the GTVA's point of view. We're fighting humans again, and for the first time the GTVA is doing so without provocation. Hell, half the fleet from AoA defected on the spot. Any pilot with a sense of morality would be horribly demoralized by what he was doing. And as for the UEF, they're fighting to defend their home - and succeeding against impossible odds. I'd think that defending one's homeworld would give one a great deal of ferocity in doing so. And holding out against a technologically and numerically superior enemy has to be great for morale once in a while.

Objection, assumes facts not in evidence. Again we have no idea what kind of forces the GTVA has commited to the theater or at what pace the war is being played out. From what we actually know, it seems reasonable to assume the GTVA is, in fact, winning. They're simply conducting a slow, grinding campaign, seeking to inflict maximum casualities for minimal losses to break enemy morale. For all we know the UEF's morale is shot, the GTVA is running high, and the GTVA is winning the war with a single destroyer and three and a half corvettes.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2009, 10:12:36 pm by NGTM-1R »
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Offline Leeko

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Somebody is forgetting their basic FS history. The Knossos stablized the node in the short period after its actual activation. Weeks or perhaps a month at most.
Where does anything say that, anywhere?

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I never said that they will not fight...

Faced with a choice to destroy or be destroyed, they will not even see that the option to destroy exists.
Right.

Quote
Objection, assumes facts not in evidence. Again we have no idea what kind of forces the GTVA has commited to the theater or at what pace the war is being played out. From what we actually know, it seems reasonable to assume the GTVA is, in fact, winning. They're simply conducting a slow, grinding campaign, seeking to inflict maximum casualities for minimal losses to break enemy morale. For all we know the UEF's morale is shot, the GTVA is running high, and the GTVA is winning the war with a single destroyer and three and a half corvettes.

You make valid points there. I still think that there would be a lot of pilots questioning their orders after looking at the big picture, however; I doubt the 14th Battlegroup was alone. Didn't one of the Prose entries on the BP site mention that there were more defections?

 

Offline Mongoose

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Somebody is forgetting their basic FS history. The Knossos stablized the node in the short period after its actual activation. Weeks or perhaps a month at most.
Where does anything say that, anywhere?
The Trinity presumably activated the Knossos portal only a short time before the events of FS2 (or even within the timespan of the first few missions), yet after it was destroyed, the node was completely passable to GTVA and Shivan ships.  It had already managed to stabilize, at least for the time being.

 

Offline The E

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You make valid points there. I still think that there would be a lot of pilots questioning their orders after looking at the big picture, however; I doubt the 14th Battlegroup was alone. Didn't one of the Prose entries on the BP site mention that there were more defections?

Also remember that the Expeditionary Force was probably hand-picked with Officers that were deemed capable of executing the order to subdue Earth before they were sent out. That they went on a detour which changed their minds about this whole killing humans thing was unplanned, of course.
Still, these were people who were supposed to be able and willing to execute even questionable orders from Command, and they were sent out with the best equipment available.
If you then consider the fact that apparently only Admiral Bei and that other Admiral were briefed on the standing Orders concerning the UEF, well.....It's not in the least surprising that people will defect.
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Offline Leeko

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I was under the impression that it had always made the node stable. But then I'm not sure what activating it would mean. I guess I always thought of it as a door into the node which it was stabilizing. If that makes sense. I do recall the bit about the Trinity activating it - I replayed retail FS2 over the last week and a half - but not anything that specifies whether the Trinity's activating it was the point at which the node was stabilized.

 

Offline NGTM-1R

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Right.

You're again confusing choices on a personal and a societal level. :P One on one, in small groups, they'll fight, but as a society, they don't want to and will never display any killer instinct.

You make valid points there. I still think that there would be a lot of pilots questioning their orders after looking at the big picture, however; I doubt the 14th Battlegroup was alone. Didn't one of the Prose entries on the BP site mention that there were more defections?

A few, but not many. The GTA/Terran GTVA were and have been democractic governments; and apparently there are some kind of legal irregularities inherent in how Ubuntu replaced the GTA that the GTVA has been building on. In a lot of ways I think the war could be cast as the first rationalist crusade against the infidel theists.
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Offline Mongoose

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I was under the impression that it had always made the node stable. But then I'm not sure what activating it would mean. I guess I always thought of it as a door into the node which it was stabilizing. If that makes sense. I do recall the bit about the Trinity activating it - I replayed retail FS2 over the last week and a half - but not anything that specifies whether the Trinity's activating it was the point at which the node was stabilized.
The Trinity's activation of the Knossos made the node passable again in the first place, but the action of that Knossos over the weeks/months it was active during the FS2 campaign brought a more permanent stability to the node.  As a result, even after Command made the call to destroy the Knossos, it remained stable to the point where ships were able to continually pass through it.

 

Offline General Battuta

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I imagine the debates happening in this thread are not unlike those probably being conducted in GTVA and UEF society even now - and perhaps even in the campaign itself.

 

Offline Leeko

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A few, but not many. The GTA/Terran GTVA were and have been democractic governments; and apparently there are some kind of legal irregularities inherent in how Ubuntu replaced the GTA that the GTVA has been building on. In a lot of ways I think the war could be cast as the first rationalist crusade against the infidel theists.

Quite possible.

I imagine the debates happening in this thread are not unlike those probably being conducted in GTVA and UEF society even now - and perhaps even in the campaign itself.

Also quite possible. :lol:

 

Offline mxlm

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I imagine the debates happening in this thread are not unlike those probably being conducted in GTVA and UEF society even now

Wait, wait, wait. You're telling me FS2, or at least BP, takes place 'right about now, in a galaxy far far away?'

So. Lame.  :p
I will ask that you explain yourself. Please do so with the clear understanding that I may decide I am angry enough to destroy all of you and raze this sickening mausoleum of fraud down to the naked rock it stands on.