[SaltyWaffles]

I'm not saying there's anything even close to a plot hole here (there isn't), but I'm a bit confused about the GTVA's strategy in the war, as well as the UEF's lack of replenishing or building up their forces.

For the GTVA:
1) A lot of their justifications and goals for invading Sol are now being rendered moot by their own actions. They're destroying Sol's infrastructure and industrial base, angering and psychologically hurting the entirety of the UEF and its culture, and killing a whole lot of people that would otherwise be able to contribute to the economy and defense of all humans and vasudans.
2) If the GTVA is enacting total war protocols and is fully willing to sustain heavy casualties and do a lot of damage in order to end the war quickly and decisively, why are they still only sending just enough ships/assets to achieve parity with the UEF, instead of briefly surging in with overwhelming force and numbers?
3) Why not put a bunch of new ships in Sol and then immediately engage in a diplomatic resolution? Their initial terms were ludicrous, and they didn't seem to try very hard in pressing for those terms. If the UEF is truly pacifistic, terms that stopped short of outlawing their entire way of life would probably work.
4) The GTVA, on all levels, should know by now that the UEF is far from pacifistic and antimilitary. Even during the isolationist period, when pirates and small insurrectionist groups were the only perceived threat, the UEF military was quite strong and innovative. The UEF continues to hold its own against the GTVA, even after total war protocols are enacted. If the UEF's culture and governmental system is antimilitary and pacifistic, there is no way the war would be in the state it is right now, or even close. At this point, even some minor concessions from the UEF could achieve the ideal goals of the GTVA in exchange for ending the war (my first guess would be removing all executive and official authority from the Council of Elders, as well as giving a decent increase to military spending). And how could Ubuntu officials (or their constituents) be antimilitary and weak-on-defense in the face of what happened with the NTF and (especially) the Second Shivan Incursion? They wouldn't have any argument--Shivans are totally xenocidal, alien, and overwhelmingly powerful, and have never tried nor responded to any forms of diplomacy or even communication. 

For the UEF:
1) I get that there's some big secret project going on, but it seems that only Earth is dedicating major resources to it. So why, then, has the UEF not really replaced any of its losses (save for some Uhlans and Kents), or bolstered its military even in a time of great need? If the Elders wanted to pursue a diplomatic solution to the war, it still doesn't make sense, as having a better navy gives you an edge in negotiations, and would allow for reasonable terms to end the war.
2) Why aren't any of the Solaris destroyers deployed more often? I understand the concept of "fleet-in-being", but only the Atreus (and later the Imperiouse, I guess) could hope to stand up to a Solaris, even with escorts. If you were to leave several Karunas and/or Narayanas back "home" for defense, sortying a Solaris to take out a GTVA Hecate that's lacking in fighter cover and complement and protected by a few older escorts would be a major defensive victory. A Solaris is capable of jumping to any point in Sol in a few minutes' notice, and can jump back in about as much time--and unlike Karunas, Solaris' have pretty good durability.
3) Why does no one outside of Admiral Byrne and the Council of Elders seem to know what this secret project is? Even Calder and Netreba don't seem to know at all, which baffles me. If its such a huge project that it takes enormous resources and assets from their navy and spacecraft, how could it possibly be secret to the highest officers in the UEF? Especially since the Elders aren't supposed to have that kind of authority (huge short-term expenditures at the expense of critical, immediate needs).
4) Why didn't First and Second fleets help out the Third Fleet much in the first 18 months of the war? I may have gotten the wrong impression, but surely preventing the fall of 1/3rd (or more) of Sol and the capture and/or destruction of a huge chunk of Sol's infrastructure or supplies leave Earth and Mars far more open than sending a few frigates (or a single Solaris)? Besides, the GTVA hadn't activated total war protocols yet, so why the disproportional fear?
5) About the Meridian strike--a carrier was wide open and overextended, covered only by a few older escort ships and a few wings of craft. Why would First, Second, and Third fleets only send a combined force of 2 Karunas, 2 Uriels, and a wing of bombers? Why not sortie a Solaris to outright kill the destroyer? Or deploy a wing of those Fleet Bombers, escorted by a wing of the White Knights (or whatever they're called), to knock out the Meridian's engines in order to achieve a destroyer kill?


And a general question:
1) Why would the Gaian Effort side with the GTVA? Isn't the UEF much more aligned with their ideals and continued existence after the war? And isn't the UEF a lot more environmentally friendly, too?


I may just totally missed or misinterpreted certain things, but these questions kept coming back to the forefront of my mind when playing/watching WiH. And while I do understand that some of these questions may be meant to be answered in the second part of WiH, it is quite jarring and perplexing to me in the mean time, and these events happened in the timeline of the first part of WiH, so...

Any answers would be greatly appreciated.

[headdie]

GTVA
1) The original plan was blasted to pieces by the 14th's unexpected journey into an alternative reality and subsequent actions on arriving in Sol which forced a war that Ironically the GTVA was no longer prepared for.  Also while there are strikes against infrastructure it is generally targeted  (though there are incidents that could be taken to be against this).  As for UEF culture they *want* to wipe it out because of its predominately pacifistic nature which they perceive would weaken the GTVA resolve during the next Shivan encounter.

2) Logistics transit limitations imposed by the node dictate what forces the GTVA can deploy, not to mention security implications in the home systems.

3)/4) see last part of answer 1) Ubuntu is seen as a cultural threat that could undermine GTVA readiness for the next shivan war.  The UEF have held on so long due to the poor performance of the GTVA in the early months which gave the UEF time to regroup.

UEF

1) from what we see in WiH the majority of resources is either going into the project or maintaining the current fleet, by the end of WiH the UEF only have months worth of material left to maintain their fleet due to the logistics damage inflicted by the GTVA

2) deploying a Solaris would be highly risky, by doing so you pin it in place until it's drives recharge, in which time a GTVA HK force can strike against the ship, close up to maximize the advantage of beams.

3) to keep it secret, leaks could come from any source so you keep a war winning project under wraps as much as possible

4) the council of elders basically order a defensive posture, iirc the second and third work together to some degree but the first is keeping itself for this secret project and detering the GTVA from orbiting Earth.

5) the GTVA had them committed to defending key targets, there was not the forces available for an overwhelming response

general

1) give a terrorist support and they are yours until ideology conflicts are forced or someone else helps them more.  Also remember the Gaians have been at war with the UEF for a while at this point, it's more of an alliance of convenience than of ideology.

[Black_Yoshi1230]

GTVA:

2. Remember they have a lot of systems to look out in, hell, I don't know how much of the Allied Fleet was restored after most of them were just ransacked and dead boned near the Vega Node in Capella. If you took most of the post-Capella stories at face value (whether or not you like to consider them being part of the eighteen year gap), any that took place around five to ten years still had the Terrans licking their wounds, like about having less than a fifth of the fleet left.

UEF:

1. The Feds only have their jurisdiction as far between the Sun and Mars (not sure about the asteroid belt, I think near Ceres or something), and with the majority of the larger planets gone, you can only go so far with the amount of resources you could scrap together...

2 and 5. If you payed attention to Post Meridian, any deployment of a Solaris would leave Earth or Mars open to a fleet attack (there's only three, one for each known Admiral in the UEF Fleet, and by Delenda Est, two of them were pinning down the GTVA at Jupiter). Plus, the Council thought anything above a Karuna was overkill, since that was controversial enough during its design (I'd be willing to scream read the lore again).

5 specifically: See above, and the Vajradhara Fleet Bombers? They were kept in reserve around Earth and Mars, mainly because a big chunk of them got Trebuchetted to death, and they are as expensive as crack (if I had to guess, something like twice as expensive as the space equivalent of an F-22). The Durgas were the next best thing, unless you wanted to introduce the Lapith Strike Bomber.

[CT27]

Salty,

Since you said the GTVA's original demands were basically unreasonable, what new proposals should they make now?  Since the GTVA currently holds the upper hand I think they could get at least some of what they want.


Or if that wouldn't work, what should the GTVA have done from the beginning instead of demand Sol surrender at gunpoint?

[Klaustrophobia]

how about "OH HAI GAIS!  Look, we fixed the node for you.  You can get out and about in the galaxy again.  So wanna be friends?  Hows about we get the old club back together?  Oh and remember those alien dudes that helped us kill the Lucifer?  They're in the club now too.  Oh BTW, while you were gone the Shivans came back an wrecked ****, so you'd best be throwing some weight behind your defenses.  We can hook you up with BEAMZ if you throw some of that massive resource base our way.  Let's do lunch."

[Black_Yoshi1230]

Or if that wouldn't work, what should the GTVA have done from the beginning instead of demand Sol surrender at gunpoint?

If you're talking what should have been done to avoid the mess by Journey's End, it's basically...

+"Yeah... we come in peace. Can we talk to your government or something?"

-"Who did you say you were?"

+"We're the GTVA. Yeah, it's not the GTA anymore, the Vasudans are on our side now. Oh, and the Lucifer that we helped blow the crap out of and accidentally cut you guys off? Um... we've seen worse. Lots worse. Like a bunch of the even worse things wrecked a star, plus a bunch of our own guys became jerks that rebelled, and everything got shot to hell."

-"Where are the Vasudans? I don't see any that came with you guys. Pics or it didn't happen!"

+"Okay... yeah, we're maddened, and Earth is pretty much the only place worth getting to. Everyone's depressed, and if it's okay, we just want to stay. We've spent so much dough and time trying to come back here, and we've invested so much to piss off almost every Vasudan."

Something tells me a bunch of guys in High Command and the Assembly were a bunch of guys who thought bullets solved everything.

[mormon_boy]

Or if that wouldn't work, what should the GTVA have done from the beginning instead of demand Sol surrender at gunpoint?

If you're talking what should have been done to avoid the mess by Journey's End, it's basically...

+"Yeah... we come in peace. Can we talk to your government or something?"

-"Who did you say you were?"

+"We're the GTVA. Yeah, it's not the GTA anymore, the Vasudans are on our side now. Oh, and the Lucifer that we helped blow the crap out of and accidentally cut you guys off? Um... we've seen worse. Lots worse. Like a bunch of the even worse things wrecked a star, plus a bunch of our own guys became jerks that rebelled, and everything got shot to hell."

-"Where are the Vasudans? I don't see any that came with you guys. Pics or it didn't happen!"

+"Okay... yeah, we're maddened, and Earth is pretty much the only place worth getting to. Everyone's depressed, and if it's okay, we just want to stay. We've spent so much dough and time trying to come back here, and we've invested so much to piss off almost every Vasudan."

Something tells me a bunch of guys in High Command and the Assembly were a bunch of guys who thought bullets solved everything.

actually I believe GTVA policy is "plasma beams solve everything"

though a better strategy would have been
+"yeah we come in peace but your way of life could bring about the extinction of humanity so until you give that up we are going to have to make sure nothing leaves this system in non-vaporous form can we set up a blockade here?"

-"uh no?"

+"ok its all right over the past 50 years we developed a universal solution to problems"

-"you discovered ubuntu like us?"

+"no, plasma beams "*opens fire*

[Badwolf1358]

At heart I think most of the GTVA public and maybe portions of the GTVA hierarchy is against the war effort. Meaning that a full deployment of the fleet is next to impossible. Also the shear number of systems in the GTVA may prohibit a deployment of more forces.
As for the UEF lack of a build up there are multiple logistical reasons I can see. First of all ships beyond  the fighter and bomber class not only use large amount of resources they take time to build. It takes approximately two years to build an USN Arleigh Burke class guided missile destroyer which would is equivalent to a Karuna class vessel. A Nimitz class aircraft carrier the equivalent of a Solaris class destroyer takes almost a decade to complete.

[Klaustrophobia]

can we make the assumption that the ubuntu government is efficient and competent?  at least as far as the economy goes?  i think that's generally implied in the lore.  cuz if so, you can probably shave off upwards of 90% of the production time for vessels.

[headdie]

I would probably say that the UEF has a more efficient economy but that efficiency probably translates more in the region of 5-25% reduction in construction time, remember that whatever you do it will still take a certain amount of  work hours to put the ship together, if you are getting close to double the time it should take due to "inefficiencies" then you should probably wind down the business or be hiring new middle management to wip things into shape because doubling the wage bill is a hefty overhead to add to the construction cost of the ship.

[QuakeIV]

You can pretty much make the construction time out to be whatever you damn well feel like; freespace is set so far in the future there is no comparison to current ship building techniques.

[MatthTheGeek]

For the GTVA:
1) A lot of their justifications and goals for invading Sol are now being rendered moot by their own actions. They're destroying Sol's infrastructure and industrial base, angering and psychologically hurting the entirety of the UEF and its culture, and killing a whole lot of people that would otherwise be able to contribute to the economy and defense of all humans and vasudans.

That's exactly the situation the Tevs wanted to avoid in the first place, which is why Severanti was so cautious during the first 18 months of war. However, because of that cautiousness, the war has gone for far too long and the Tevs just want to end it, now, before they either get a new Shivan incursion or simply a civil war due to population unrest on their side.

2) If the GTVA is enacting total war protocols and is fully willing to sustain heavy casualties and do a lot of damage in order to end the war quickly and decisively, why are they still only sending just enough ships/assets to achieve parity with the UEF, instead of briefly surging in with overwhelming force and numbers?

'Cause 1) logistics, 2) gotta keep ships in their territories to contain a potential Shivan incursion, 3) gotta maintain a visible presence in Tevs systems to keep public unrest under control. Four battlegroups out of the two dozens they have for the about two dozens of systems they have to patrol is already stretching their fleet and logistics to their limits.

3) Why not put a bunch of new ships in Sol and then immediately engage in a diplomatic resolution? Their initial terms were ludicrous, and they didn't seem to try very hard in pressing for those terms. If the UEF is truly pacifistic, terms that stopped short of outlawing their entire way of life would probably work.
4) The GTVA, on all levels, should know by now that the UEF is far from pacifistic and antimilitary. Even during the isolationist period, when pirates and small insurrectionist groups were the only perceived threat, the UEF military was quite strong and innovative. The UEF continues to hold its own against the GTVA, even after total war protocols are enacted. If the UEF's culture and governmental system is antimilitary and pacifistic, there is no way the war would be in the state it is right now, or even close. At this point, even some minor concessions from the UEF could achieve the ideal goals of the GTVA in exchange for ending the war (my first guess would be removing all executive and official authority from the Council of Elders, as well as giving a decent increase to military spending). And how could Ubuntu officials (or their constituents) be antimilitary and weak-on-defense in the face of what happened with the NTF and (especially) the Second Shivan Incursion? They wouldn't have any argument--Shivans are totally xenocidal, alien, and overwhelmingly powerful, and have never tried nor responded to any forms of diplomacy or even communication. 

The initial terms are all the Tevs can afford to accept. Of course the Feds have proved they weren't a bunch of helpless hippie pacifists. But it's too late for the Tevs to back down. They can't afford to reduce the terms to more acceptable levels and appear weaker to the eyes of a Tev population which is already severely doubting their leaders and the capabilities of their military.
And, as a side note, I wouldn't be surprised if whatever the Project is wasn't actually a large part in the reasons why the Tevs don't really want a peaceful resolution to the war.

For the UEF:
1) I get that there's some big secret project going on, but it seems that only Earth is dedicating major resources to it. So why, then, has the UEF not really replaced any of its losses (save for some Uhlans and Kents), or bolstered its military even in a time of great need? If the Elders wanted to pursue a diplomatic solution to the war, it still doesn't make sense, as having a better navy gives you an edge in negotiations, and would allow for reasonable terms to end the war.

That was probably the case at the beginning of the war. Since then, Severanti has spent 18 months weakening the UEF infrastructure wherever it didn't hurt the long terms GTVA objectives for Sol, and Steele has literally mauled the Earth logistic infrastructure during the Blitz. Keep in mind that, until Steele arrived, the Feds only lost a few frigates and cruisers, which were probably at least partially replaced during the 18 months. Most of the losses during the war happened during and after Artemis. Not enough time to replace them since then, and not enough logistics to replace them since the Blitz.

2) Why aren't any of the Solaris destroyers deployed more often? I understand the concept of "fleet-in-being", but only the Atreus (and later the Imperiouse, I guess) could hope to stand up to a Solaris, even with escorts. If you were to leave several Karunas and/or Narayanas back "home" for defense, sortying a Solaris to take out a GTVA Hecate that's lacking in fighter cover and complement and protected by a few older escorts would be a major defensive victory. A Solaris is capable of jumping to any point in Sol in a few minutes' notice, and can jump back in about as much time--and unlike Karunas, Solaris' have pretty good durability.

It's not because you don't see em that they aren't deployed. In every single major battle, at least from Artemis and onward, you can be sure both the Eris and the Toutatis were deployed. That includes the Blitz, the diversions during Aristeia, and Delenda Est.
Also, we don't have much info about the Solaris jump rate, but it is BP canon that the bigger the ship the longer the recharge time. A Narayana already requires about 15 minutes to recharge. You probably shouldn't assume the Solaris would take any less.

3) Why does no one outside of Admiral Byrne and the Council of Elders seem to know what this secret project is? Even Calder and Netreba don't seem to know at all, which baffles me. If its such a huge project that it takes enormous resources and assets from their navy and spacecraft, how could it possibly be secret to the highest officers in the UEF? Especially since the Elders aren't supposed to have that kind of authority (huge short-term expenditures at the expense of critical, immediate needs).

Because it's SEKRET. Duh.
Remember the Elders are mostly composed of former GTI top members. They know how to keep stuff secret.

4) Why didn't First and Second fleets help out the Third Fleet much in the first 18 months of the war? I may have gotten the wrong impression, but surely preventing the fall of 1/3rd (or more) of Sol and the capture and/or destruction of a huge chunk of Sol's infrastructure or supplies leave Earth and Mars far more open than sending a few frigates (or a single Solaris)? Besides, the GTVA hadn't activated total war protocols yet, so why the disproportional fear?

I'm pretty sure Second supported Third long before Artemis. First remained passive because the Elders were still convinced they could find a peaceful resolution to the war.

5) About the Meridian strike--a carrier was wide open and overextended, covered only by a few older escort ships and a few wings of craft. Why would First, Second, and Third fleets only send a combined force of 2 Karunas, 2 Uriels, and a wing of bombers? Why not sortie a Solaris to outright kill the destroyer? Or deploy a wing of those Fleet Bombers, escorted by a wing of the White Knights (or whatever they're called), to knock out the Meridian's engines in order to achieve a destroyer kill?

Same as usual, it's not because you don't see em that they're not deployed.

And a general question:
1) Why would the Gaian Effort side with the GTVA? Isn't the UEF much more aligned with their ideals and continued existence after the war? And isn't the UEF a lot more environmentally friendly, too?

The Gefs aren't sided with the Tevs. The Tevs are helping one cell of the Gefs against the UEF. The Gefs hate the UEF guts, and the Tevs take advantage of that.
Also, the Gefs aren't a united force, by far. Each individual cell is independent, if not outright hostile to the others. And, just as the GTVI got a Gef cell to cooperate with em, I'm pretty sure the UEF Intelligence or the Fedayeen got some other Gefs to work with em too. The Gefs are just too good a neutral force to not use for deniable purposes by both sides. Obviously in WiH, flying on the UEF side, it's pretty normal that you only encounter the Gefs that are fighting against you.

[CT27]

Something I've wondered about the Vasudans:

If the Vasudans aren't really for the war right now and have sympathies for the UEF, why are they doing anything at all to help Steele...i.e., a middle of the road approach?  Why send even logistics help?

Shouldn't they either stay out of the war totally or fully commit to combat operations?

[FireSpawn]

Something I've wondered about the Vasudans:

If the Vasudans aren't really for the war right now and have sympathies for the UEF, why are they doing anything at all to help Steele...i.e., a middle of the road approach?  Why send even logistics help?

Shouldn't they either stay out of the war totally or fully commit to combat operations?

Maybe they're just helping them kill each other better, so that they can turn on whoever is left and enslave the survivors! Quick, someone beam the surface of their homeworld....AGAIN!

[BlasterNT]

I'm guessing that initially at least, before Steele's trickery, they were doing so in a "we're sending these ships because we're bound by our alliance to do so, and would rather that than provide military support" way. 

[mormon_boy]

it could be a stalling tactic and they are just keeping the GTVA on their feet till they can decide which faction to support

[NGTM-1R]

Shouldn't they either stay out of the war totally or fully commit to combat operations?

They are committed to a military and economic alliance they probably need. The Vasudan economy bounced back after the Great War because the major Terran production center was gone, and new markets for Vasudan-made goods opened up. If they don't offer at least token support, the Alliance dissolves, the Vasudan export economy flatlines, economic chaos ensues, and the government is up **** Creek without a paddle or a boat.

[mormon_boy]

that's bad considering vasuda prime was a desert so most vasudans probably don't know how to swim.

[MatthTheGeek]

Something I've wondered about the Vasudans:

If the Vasudans aren't really for the war right now and have sympathies for the UEF, why are they doing anything at all to help Steele...i.e., a middle of the road approach?  Why send even logistics help?

Shouldn't they either stay out of the war totally or fully commit to combat operations?

They're sending stuff now for the same reason the Tevs have sent Steele at the beginning of WiH. The war had been going on for far too long and they can't afford to let it go forever, should a new Shivan incursion or a civil war happen. That, plus the fact that, although the Emperor is opposed to the war, I doubt this is the case for most Vasudans, especially in the military, which probably added some political pressure to help the Tevs.

[FireSpawn]

that's bad considering vasuda prime was a desert so most vasudans probably don't know how to swim.