Author Topic: I don't get the GTVA's thinking any more...nor the UEF strategy, in a way  (Read 9878 times)

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Offline Sciguy

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Re: I don't get the GTVA's thinking any more...nor the UEF strategy, in a way
Re: the Vasudans

They would rather not be fighting but it is not surprising that they joined up with the GTVA (note what the initials stand for   :)).  Why would they not side with the Tevs?  They have been close allies and trading partners for ~50 years.  They design ships together, have a shared (somewhat) military, and because of their alliance both survived the 2nd incursion.  By contrast the Feds are "those people we used to know, but I hear they are still cool."  Why throw away a good partnership for something that may not be a long term alliance.

As for why they are only providing Logistics.  If the Vasudans sent a destroyer or 3 the war would likely be over fairly quickly.  My theory is that the rediscovery of Earth is bad for the Vasudans.  If Earth rejoins the GTVA the balance of power and influence will shift dramatically away from the Vasudans.  After Earth was sealed both the Terrans and Vasudans were in the same boat.  Both of their homeworlds were lost (with I assume the vast production and populations that were there) so both people became exiles in a way.  Once Earth is readmitted, it will bring both population and resources to the Terran half of the GTVA, which while great for the overall alliance is bad for the Vasudan half.  It is in the Vasudans best interest to have the war drag on for a long time, weakening both parties and creating ill will so that when the inevitable occurs (Earth joins the GTVA either as a free party or as a part of the Terran half) the Terrans will not be strongly unified.

 

Offline headdie

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Re: I don't get the GTVA's thinking any more...nor the UEF strategy, in a way
The reason for Vasudan intervention is that the war with the UEF is drawing away and destroying resources that will be needed when the Shivans invade again which could be any time, and while the UEF is closer to their ideology, the tevs have the more substantial military which is better equipped to handle such an invasion, as AoA proved a Terran battlegroup is able to operate unsupported for a strategically significant length of time against sizable shivan forces and be capable to mounting offensive operations.  The UEF on the other hand even before the war just does not have this capability.

tl:dr
The war is hampering the GTVA's ability to respond to a Shivan attack so Vasudan intervention is nothing more than bringing a swift end to it
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Re: I don't get the GTVA's thinking any more...nor the UEF strategy, in a way
Is the Vasudan populace subject to the same media blackout and PsyOps that Terran Citizens are, in regards to the UEF?

 

Offline MatthTheGeek

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Re: I don't get the GTVA's thinking any more...nor the UEF strategy, in a way
Well, it's mostly the Tevs that are in the Sol theater. Whatever the zods hear about the war and the UEF most likely come nearly exclusively from Tev sources.
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Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: I don't get the GTVA's thinking any more...nor the UEF strategy, in a way
Is the Vasudan populace subject to the same media blackout and PsyOps that Terran Citizens are, in regards to the UEF?

They'd have to be for the campaign to be effective.
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Offline CT27

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Re: I don't get the GTVA's thinking any more...nor the UEF strategy, in a way
As for why they are only providing Logistics.  If the Vasudans sent a destroyer or 3 the war would likely be over fairly quickly.  My theory is that the rediscovery of Earth is bad for the Vasudans.  If Earth rejoins the GTVA the balance of power and influence will shift dramatically away from the Vasudans.  After Earth was sealed both the Terrans and Vasudans were in the same boat.  Both of their homeworlds were lost (with I assume the vast production and populations that were there) so both people became exiles in a way.  Once Earth is readmitted, it will bring both population and resources to the Terran half of the GTVA, which while great for the overall alliance is bad for the Vasudan half.  It is in the Vasudans best interest to have the war drag on for a long time, weakening both parties and creating ill will so that when the inevitable occurs (Earth joins the GTVA either as a free party or as a part of the Terran half) the Terrans will not be strongly unified.

Perhaps the Vasudans should then make a deal with the GTVA Terrans?  Something like, in exchange for a couple destroyers, ironclad guarantees about economic aid and access to Earth's resources.

 

Offline Sciguy

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Re: I don't get the GTVA's thinking any more...nor the UEF strategy, in a way

Perhaps the Vasudans should then make a deal with the GTVA Terrans?  Something like, in exchange for a couple destroyers, ironclad guarantees about economic aid and access to Earth's resources.

That would be an interesting concept.  Split up the Solar system between the GTVA Terrans and the Vasudans so as to maintain the status quo.  Maybe give Earth (minus the deserts, since Vasudans like those) to the Humans and a few other major planets (Mars, Jupiter, Venus) and some shipyards to the Vasudans while keeping certain resources shared for the common defense against the Shivans.  The Jovians and Martians may not like that too much but they lost so they don't get to vote :D.

 

Offline FireSpawn

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Re: I don't get the GTVA's thinking any more...nor the UEF strategy, in a way
If I was the supreme overlord of Sol while all this was going on, and everything went to **** as it did, I'd initiate a scorched earth policy...ON ALL THE THINGS!

"Oh hello Mr Tev, you want this refinery? TOO BAD, I JUST NUKED IT!

What's that, you'll be happy to just visit the orphans on Earth?.....I personally piloted the bomber that leveled the orphanages.

I'm sorry, did you just say that those resources are essential to safeguarding the galaxy and so you're just going to come in here and steal all the hard work of the citizens of Sol and stamp out their culture because you feel like it may weaken your sorry ass military state? LETS SEE WHAT HAPPENS WHEN WE DUMP ALL THIS ANTIMATTER INTO THE SUN  :mad2:

This is MY land, I helped cultivate it. If I can't have it, then I'll make sure that only our ghosts will be able to reside here! ALL HAIL SHIVA!!!"

Or something along those lines.
 
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Offline crizza

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Re: I don't get the GTVA's thinking any more...nor the UEF strategy, in a way
Their was once a guy planing on doing just that to a certain state in central europe...

 

Offline headdie

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Re: I don't get the GTVA's thinking any more...nor the UEF strategy, in a way
Jokes aside how would a seriously presented "Scorched Earth" policy work?  Evacuate the population to safe locations and burn and/or demo everything of industrial worth. 

Offer Sol to the GTVA under reasonable terms to the UEF on the condition they will do it.  The GTVA then have the problem do they risk not only loosing the entire reason for the war but leaving themselves with a massive refugee problem because lets face it without industry there is no way to even process food, let alone fuel to power things like life support on space stations and habitat domes and not helping will make it to the general GTVA civilian population because, no amount of official secrets and orders will stop every GTVA military person or attached civilian from talking about such an act, it's human nature.

It would come down to how serious the UEF would be in that situation.
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Offline QuakeIV

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Re: I don't get the GTVA's thinking any more...nor the UEF strategy, in a way
Put bluntly if the Russians had gotten control of Sol the GTVA would be totally boned.

 
Re: I don't get the GTVA's thinking any more...nor the UEF strategy, in a way
I don't think a Scorched Earth policy would ever be able to be implemented by the UEF though.  You saw how difficult it was to self-d a single installation in TBI (granted, there were still people aboard), now imagine trying to do that with an entire system. 

 
Re: I don't get the GTVA's thinking any more...nor the UEF strategy, in a way
GTVA
1) The original plan was blasted to pieces by the 14th's unexpected journey into an alternative reality and subsequent actions on arriving in Sol which forced a war that Ironically the GTVA was no longer prepared for.  Also while there are strikes against infrastructure it is generally targeted  (though there are incidents that could be taken to be against this).  As for UEF culture they *want* to wipe it out because of its predominately pacifistic nature which they perceive would weaken the GTVA resolve during the next Shivan encounter.

I know the plan got screwed up. However, the original plan was only desirable/viable if the war could be won quickly and decisively, without causing major damage to Sol's infrastructure/industry or killing a lot of people. That's from the "mouths" of the Security Council/High Command. Now, 18 months into the war, many thousands are dead (civilians included), the GTVA has to resort to total war to win, they're making the entirety of Sol's population hate the GTVA, they're destroying Sol's infrastructure and industry, and spending exorbitant amounts of money and resources to win a war that destroys the very things they started the war to preserve.

And it's not a justifiable case of "gone too far to turn back now": continuing on the current path only makes things worse.

As for the UEF's culture--this is probably the most important point behind the war. The GTVA High Command saw the Ubuntu culture as a huge threat to the GTVA (due to the perceived likelihood of it spreading and dominating the existing GTVA culture) because (according to them) they are pacifistic, averse to the military, and spent relatively little on the military. Well, 18 months into the war, the UEF is holding its own against the GTVA despite allocating massive resources to some secret project and a commitment to a defensive war until a diplomatic solution can be found. It was only when the GTVA sent in a new battlegroup of its most advanced ships and some of its best officers--and resorted to total war--that they gained a major victory. Clearly, if the Ubuntu culture was pacifistic, weak on defense, and anti-military, the UEF wouldn't have even lasted 6 months, let alone 18+ (and still going). Further, the UEF turned economic collapse into a huge socio-economic boom with techniques and methodologies that could be applied almost anywhere, and they are still pretty damn good at war.

They should know by now that the Ubuntu culture is, for the most part, exactly what the terran side of the GTVA has needed all along--a unified culture that motivated and comforted humanity, rather than a nihilistic culture driven by fear and loss.

That's not to say that it would be fine and dandy for the GTVA to adopt the UEF's culture and system wholesale--this is where negotiations an diplomacy comes in, and the Second Shivan Incursion is close to a be-all-end-all argument about the necessity of a strong, well prepared and steadily advancing military. There's a lot of effective middle ground to be found here, if only the GTVA High Command cared to think about it for a few seconds.

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2) Logistics transit limitations imposed by the node dictate what forces the GTVA can deploy, not to mention security implications in the home systems.
Sort of; the logistics issue is more along the lines of supporting a certain level of forces for an extended period of time, rather than the node physically being incapable of holding X amount of ships traveling through it at a certain rate. This means that the GTVA should be able to send in a force of about four destroyers (and their escorts) within a few days, and have the entire Sol invasion force conduct a massive assault to overwhelm and effectively defeat the UEF in a single month (or less).

As for the security of the home systems--it's a much bigger security risk to have several battlegroups off fighting a resource-intensive war for years than it is to have a few less destroyer groups in your systems for a few weeks. If it's a big enough problem where you need all of your destroyers in all of your systems throughout the entire potential conflict with the Shivans, you've already lost, really. Or the Shivans somehow found a dozen new jump nodes linked to a dozen GTVA systems and it all came together in the same few week span.


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3)/4) see last part of answer 1) Ubuntu is seen as a cultural threat that could undermine GTVA readiness for the next shivan war.  The UEF have held on so long due to the poor performance of the GTVA in the early months which gave the UEF time to regroup.
You're correct in that the Ubuntu culture was seen as a threat to GTVA's readiness in the next potential Shivan incursion. However, emphasis on the was. The UEF has demonstrated quite clearly that their military readiness was not compromised by their culture, even when the system was completely isolated from all jump nodes and the biggest threat was the freaking Gaian Effort.

The UEF didn't hold on so long because the GTVA screwed up in the first 17 months, they held on because their military and personnel were strong enough and smart enough to hold their own against the GTVA. Sure, they had advantages in that a decent amount of their technical advantages were because they only had to operate in Sol, where logistics was easy. But while the GTVA was initially restricted from total war, the UEF was also restricted from offensive actions and escalation of the war--because they thought that, surely, the war was sparked from some kind of misunderstanding or matter that could be resolved diplomatically. Turns out the GTVA High Command is just selectively stupid and insane.

Even after the GTVA resorted to total war, the UEF is still managing to hold their own for weeks/months, which says quite a lot about how wrong the High Command's assessment of the Ubuntu culture and its effects was/is. At this point, it's vastly preferable for both sides, not to mention far "cheaper", to end the war through diplomatic means and achieve a middle ground that would benefit them both a lot more than outright victory.

If the GTVA's culture is nihilistic, bitter, and lacking something to believe in and hope for, invading the figurative "promised land" and wrecking it with total war is a terrible course of action. That's pure nihilism fuel right there, and it sure as hell isn't doing the shaky terran economy any favors. It's the kind of thing where you "win", stand on top of the ruins, and ask yourself "now what?", only to realize that you spent 18 years opening the doorway to the promised land...so that you could invade and wreck it. Oh, and almost everyone in it hates you now. Good luck with that! :|
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UEF

1) from what we see in WiH the majority of resources is either going into the project or maintaining the current fleet, by the end of WiH the UEF only have months worth of material left to maintain their fleet due to the logistics damage inflicted by the GTVA
Sort of. IIRC, it was a year, not two months, and the 1-year figure was based on the UEF fleet being at the same level, which they thought was unlikely to be the case a year from then.

...and that's also part of my point, though: the massive amount of resources being devoted (and transported, if the Agincourt thing is any indication) to this project makes maintaining total secrecy rather unrealistic. How could Calder and Netreba--two of the three top military commanders in the entire UEF--not have any idea what this project was?
[/quote]
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2) deploying a Solaris would be highly risky, by doing so you pin it in place until it's drives recharge, in which time a GTVA HK force can strike against the ship, close up to maximize the advantage of beams.
It's not as risky as you might think. Unless its entire craft complement is somewhere else, an HK team would not be nearly enough to take a Solaris down--if its massive craft screen doesn't disable the beam cannons on the shock-jump corvettes, the numerous gatling railguns designed to do exactly that effectively probably will. Even then, the Solaris is a highly durable ship even by GTVA standards. Imagine if it carried some of those heavy or fleet bombers within its fighter bay--I'd be more concerned for the HK team.

Of course, you'd still only deploy a Solaris (when not an emergency) when you felt confident that the GTVA didn't have a major strikeforce (as in, more than an HK team) on Jump-5 standby.

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3) to keep it secret, leaks could come from any source so you keep a war winning project under wraps as much as possible
I understand that completely; I'm referring to the implications that Netreba and Calder either don't have any idea what the project is or only have a slight idea. Militarily speaking, that's a terrible, terrible idea, as you're deliberately keeping your top military commanders in the dark about a mysterious project that's diverting a huge portion of the UEF's resources away from military matters. So if this project is (or can be) a superweapon of some kind, that's a major element they couldn't plan a strategy around. Or if the project won't need as much resources in two months, that's another major factor that the military can't plan for.

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4) the council of elders basically order a defensive posture, iirc the second and third work together to some degree but the first is keeping itself for this secret project and detering the GTVA from orbiting Earth.
All three fleets used to work together until Netreba and Calder got fed up and demanded autonomy. As for deterring the GTVA from taking Earth--it's one system. While in normal-space terms it's huge, in subspace terms, it's tiny. In other words, if the GTVA wanted to put a corvette or destroyer in Earth orbit and threaten orbital bombardment unless you surrender, there is nothing you can do about it. Seriously, all you'd have to do is jump to a point in Earth orbit that isn't within a dozen kilometers of a force bigger than a frigate. Earth is a very big place. Earth orbit is even bigger. I don't think I need to do the math, here. The UEF could just call the bluff, and if the GTVA actually went and did it, well...congrats GTVA, you've become mass murderers of civilians, you've made the entire population of Sol hate you, and you've made the UEF determined and desperate enough to defeat you at any cost. Oh, and good luck justifying that one to the people back home. You'll have people comparing the Raynor/Titan to the Lucifer glassing Vasuda Prime in no time flat.

Thus, you just need to protect (with fleet assets) the important installations in Earth orbit, which doesn't require the entire (or even 90%) of the First Fleet, 24/7.

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5) the GTVA had them committed to defending key targets, there was not the forces available for an overwhelming response
Not really; at that point the blitz had long passed its peak and most of the GTVA ships in Sol had fallen back to lick their wounds and regroup. If diverting a couple frigates (or even a Solaris for just a few minutes...) ensures a kill on a GTVA destroyer (and potentially its escorts), that is absolutely worth the (very temporary) risk.

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general

1) give a terrorist support and they are yours until ideology conflicts are forced or someone else helps them more.  Also remember the Gaians have been at war with the UEF for a while at this point, it's more of an alliance of convenience than of ideology.
...and the ideology of the GE completely conflicts with the ideology of the GTVA. Not to mention the fact that the GTVA would clearly love for the GE to cease to exist as soon as they were no longer useful (and you could spare the effort for it). And the GTVA is a much bigger threat to the GE than the UEF, in more ways than one.

Even for an alliance of convenience, it's not very convenient if you're helping a faction that wants you dead/defunct, is far more of a threat to you than the UEF, is willing to resort to far harsher methods to attack you, and would know a lot about your vulnerabilities, capabilities, and bases as a result of working with them. If the UEF wins, they'll be far harsher and more aggressive against you for helping the invading army, and if the GTVA wins, they will be much more willing and able to wipe you out than the UEF, and they know a lot about you (including where to hit you). It's something of a no-win deal.

Put bluntly if the Russians had gotten control of Sol the GTVA would be totally boned.

...no, Sol would be even easier to defeat. Their economy would be in shambles, they'd have tons of discontent and groups wanting to break away, and the culture wouldn't spread. Heck, you'd more likely have groups defecting to the GTVA than destroy their own population and/or infrastructure to deny it to an enemy that would give you a much better future and protection.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2012, 11:42:49 pm by SaltyWaffles »
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Offline MatthTheGeek

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Re: I don't get the GTVA's thinking any more...nor the UEF strategy, in a way
Your whole post is full of unjustified absolutes and assumptions.
People are stupid, therefore anything popular is at best suspicious.

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Offline headdie

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Re: I don't get the GTVA's thinking any more...nor the UEF strategy, in a way
GTVA
1) The original plan was blasted to pieces by the 14th's unexpected journey into an alternative reality and subsequent actions on arriving in Sol which forced a war that Ironically the GTVA was no longer prepared for.  Also while there are strikes against infrastructure it is generally targeted  (though there are incidents that could be taken to be against this).  As for UEF culture they *want* to wipe it out because of its predominately pacifistic nature which they perceive would weaken the GTVA resolve during the next Shivan encounter.

I know the plan got screwed up. However, the original plan was only desirable/viable if the war could be won quickly and decisively, without causing major damage to Sol's infrastructure/industry or killing a lot of people. That's from the "mouths" of the Security Council/High Command. Now, 18 months into the war, many thousands are dead (civilians included), the GTVA has to resort to total war to win, they're making the entirety of Sol's population hate the GTVA, they're destroying Sol's infrastructure and industry, and spending exorbitant amounts of money and resources to win a war that destroys the very things they started the war to preserve.

And it's not a justifiable case of "gone too far to turn back now": continuing on the current path only makes things worse.

As for the UEF's culture--this is probably the most important point behind the war. The GTVA High Command saw the Ubuntu culture as a huge threat to the GTVA (due to the perceived likelihood of it spreading and dominating the existing GTVA culture) because (according to them) they are pacifistic, averse to the military, and spent relatively little on the military. Well, 18 months into the war, the UEF is holding its own against the GTVA despite allocating massive resources to some secret project and a commitment to a defensive war until a diplomatic solution can be found. It was only when the GTVA sent in a new battlegroup of its most advanced ships and some of its best officers--and resorted to total war--that they gained a major victory. Clearly, if the Ubuntu culture was pacifistic, weak on defense, and anti-military, the UEF wouldn't have even lasted 6 months, let alone 18+ (and still going). Further, the UEF turned economic collapse into a huge socio-economic boom with techniques and methodologies that could be applied almost anywhere, and they are still pretty damn good at war.

They should know by now that the Ubuntu culture is, for the most part, exactly what the terran side of the GTVA has needed all along--a unified culture that motivated and comforted humanity, rather than a nihilistic culture driven by fear and loss.

That's not to say that it would be fine and dandy for the GTVA to adopt the UEF's culture and system wholesale--this is where negotiations an diplomacy comes in, and the Second Shivan Incursion is close to a be-all-end-all argument about the necessity of a strong, well prepared and steadily advancing military. There's a lot of effective middle ground to be found here, if only the GTVA High Command cared to think about it for a few seconds.

http://blueplanet.hard-light.net/ubuntufaq8.html the Security Council see Ubuntu as an ongoing threat to GTVA readiness, more so than the Sol war because a war like this is winnable, the Ubuntu ideology on the other hand if it gets into the general population would take decades if not centuries to suppress and in the mean time followers will be calling for alternatives to military action to stop the shivans and the GTVA government see military action as the only effective response to a shivan invasion.

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BP website Balance of Power ptII

Under the guidance of President Toqueville, as advised by a panel of psychohistorians and sociopsychologists, the Security Council elected to enact its most severe contingency: the invasion of Sol. This contingency was hotly debated but ultimately selected for several reasons:
It would bring Sol into the GTVA and secure its tremendous industrial base for the preservation and re-establishment of the colonies.
It would shatter Sol's obsolete militaries while largely preserving its manpower and industries to use in defense against the Shivans.
It would unseat the Ubuntu regime and return legitimate GTVA authority to the system. Many members of the Sol population had been alive during earlier GTA rule and would, it was judged, welcome the return of their original state. Moreover, probes suggested there were dissident elements in the Kuiper fringe who might be receptive to assistance.
It would create a hostile outgroup for the GTVA's Terran population to unify against.
There were hints of a major project underway in Sol space which might serve as a weapon against the GTVA.
The ethical implications of this plan were considerable, but the Security Council believed that the alternative was the disintegration of the GTVA, its replacement by a non-militaristic Ubuntu government, and the massive centralization of the human population in Sol, leaving the fringe worlds vulnerable to the inevitable third incursion.



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2) Logistics transit limitations imposed by the node dictate what forces the GTVA can deploy, not to mention security implications in the home systems.
Sort of; the logistics issue is more along the lines of supporting a certain level of forces for an extended period of time, rather than the node physically being incapable of holding X amount of ships traveling through it at a certain rate. This means that the GTVA should be able to send in a force of about four destroyers (and their escorts) within a few days, and have the entire Sol invasion force conduct a massive assault to overwhelm and effectively defeat the UEF in a single month (or less).

As for the security of the home systems--it's a much bigger security risk to have several battlegroups off fighting a resource-intensive war for years than it is to have a few less destroyer groups in your systems for a few weeks. If it's a big enough problem where you need all of your destroyers in all of your systems throughout the entire potential conflict with the Shivans, you've already lost, really. Or the Shivans somehow found a dozen new jump nodes linked to a dozen GTVA systems and it all came together in the same few week span.

Once you have the forces in system and have won your blitz assault, you then need to support your ships to hold the system.  It also means that if the Shivans invade while the assault is in progress of the few days aftermath the GTVA have depleted reserves delaying their ability to respond by several days.

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3)/4) see last part of answer 1) Ubuntu is seen as a cultural threat that could undermine GTVA readiness for the next shivan war.  The UEF have held on so long due to the poor performance of the GTVA in the early months which gave the UEF time to regroup.
You're correct in that the Ubuntu culture was seen as a threat to GTVA's readiness in the next potential Shivan incursion. However, emphasis on the was. The UEF has demonstrated quite clearly that their military readiness was not compromised by their culture, even when the system was completely isolated from all jump nodes and the biggest threat was the freaking Gaian Effort.

The UEF didn't hold on so long because the GTVA screwed up in the first 17 months, they held on because their military and personnel were strong enough and smart enough to hold their own against the GTVA. Sure, they had advantages in that a decent amount of their technical advantages were because they only had to operate in Sol, where logistics was easy. But while the GTVA was initially restricted from total war, the UEF was also restricted from offensive actions and escalation of the war--because they thought that, surely, the war was sparked from some kind of misunderstanding or matter that could be resolved diplomatically. Turns out the GTVA High Command is just selectively stupid and insane.

Even after the GTVA resorted to total war, the UEF is still managing to hold their own for weeks/months, which says quite a lot about how wrong the High Command's assessment of the Ubuntu culture and its effects was/is. At this point, it's vastly preferable for both sides, not to mention far "cheaper", to end the war through diplomatic means and achieve a middle ground that would benefit them both a lot more than outright victory.

If the GTVA's culture is nihilistic, bitter, and lacking something to believe in and hope for, invading the figurative "promised land" and wrecking it with total war is a terrible course of action. That's pure nihilism fuel right there, and it sure as hell isn't doing the shaky terran economy any favors. It's the kind of thing where you "win", stand on top of the ruins, and ask yourself "now what?", only to realize that you spent 18 years opening the doorway to the promised land...so that you could invade and wreck it. Oh, and almost everyone in it hates you now. Good luck with that! :|

Not the entire 17 months but then the GTVA needed to make preparations and the theatre commanders at the time were much more conservative than Steele
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BP website Balance of Power ptII

The Great Umbilical
The failure of the GTVA forces to make immediate headway into Sol (or, in fact, to do so for the next several months) must be placed into context. Admiral Bei had been hand-picked to lead the beachhead, and his defection left the plan without a leader. The High Command instantly recognized that the entire GTVA OrBat and plan of attack had been compromised by Bei's defection. In order to prevent massive losses, the interim commander, Admiral Cyrus Severanti, elected to pursue an extremely conservative plan of attack in which fortification of the node would be paramount.
It would be months before a second assault on Neptune would begin. These months were marked by moderate-intensity warfare that saw the devastation of planetary infrastructure around Sol and the destruction of most of the regional defense militias not placed under the Jovian Third Fleet's jurisdiction.

in short it took months to prepare and enact an assault on a poorly defended target

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UEF

1) from what we see in WiH the majority of resources is either going into the project or maintaining the current fleet, by the end of WiH the UEF only have months worth of material left to maintain their fleet due to the logistics damage inflicted by the GTVA
Sort of. IIRC, it was a year, not two months, and the 1-year figure was based on the UEF fleet being at the same level, which they thought was unlikely to be the case a year from then.

...and that's also part of my point, though: the massive amount of resources being devoted (and transported, if the Agincourt thing is any indication) to this project makes maintaining total secrecy rather unrealistic. How could Calder and Netreba--two of the three top military commanders in the entire UEF--not have any idea what this project was?
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3) to keep it secret, leaks could come from any source so you keep a war winning project under wraps as much as possible
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I understand that completely; I'm referring to the implications that Netreba and Calder either don't have any idea what the project is or only have a slight idea. Militarily speaking, that's a terrible, terrible idea, as you're deliberately keeping your top military commanders in the dark about a mysterious project that's diverting a huge portion of the UEF's resources away from military matters. So if this project is (or can be) a superweapon of some kind, that's a major element they couldn't plan a strategy around. Or if the project won't need as much resources in two months, that's another major factor that the military can't plan for.

Not sure on that, if they know what it is or not they have dismissed it out right so might not be interested in finding out, concentrating their efforts instead on keeping the GTVA at bay.  Also Netreba and Calder  are unreliable from the perspective of the elders, an opinion reinforced by the 2nd  and 3rd going independent.  Lastly even if they knew they wont make the information widely available if for no other reason because it would be treason, while the admirals bend and manipulate rules and orders to their advantage, they haven’t been seen to break them.

Also as a small nick-pick i said months not a couple of months which can be taken to be up to a year

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2) deploying a Solaris would be highly risky, by doing so you pin it in place until it's drives recharge, in which time a GTVA HK force can strike against the ship, close up to maximize the advantage of beams.
It's not as risky as you might think. Unless its entire craft complement is somewhere else, an HK team would not be nearly enough to take a Solaris down--if its massive craft screen doesn't disable the beam cannons on the shock-jump corvettes, the numerous gatling railguns designed to do exactly that effectively probably will. Even then, the Solaris is a highly durable ship even by GTVA standards. Imagine if it carried some of those heavy or fleet bombers within its fighter bay--I'd be more concerned for the HK team.

Of course, you'd still only deploy a Solaris (when not an emergency) when you felt confident that the GTVA didn't have a major strikeforce (as in, more than an HK team) on Jump-5 standby.

What is this massive craft screen you are on about?  The warships of the battle groups are mostly deployed defending important locations and the 3rd battle group is frankly close to collapse in numbers iirc.  As for their fighters again only the UEF Solaris is close to full strength with it's fighter compliment also the destroyers are constantly fielding their fighters for defensive engagements else where so wont have them all available anyway.

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4) the council of elders basically order a defensive posture, iirc the second and third work together to some degree but the first is keeping itself for this secret project and detering the GTVA from orbiting Earth.
All three fleets used to work together until Netreba and Calder got fed up and demanded autonomy. As for deterring the GTVA from taking Earth--it's one system. While in normal-space terms it's huge, in subspace terms, it's tiny. In other words, if the GTVA wanted to put a corvette or destroyer in Earth orbit and threaten orbital bombardment unless you surrender, there is nothing you can do about it. Seriously, all you'd have to do is jump to a point in Earth orbit that isn't within a dozen kilometers of a force bigger than a frigate. Earth is a very big place. Earth orbit is even bigger. I don't think I need to do the math, here. The UEF could just call the bluff, and if the GTVA actually went and did it, well...congrats GTVA, you've become mass murderers of civilians, you've made the entire population of Sol hate you, and you've made the UEF determined and desperate enough to defeat you at any cost. Oh, and good luck justifying that one to the people back home. You'll have people comparing the Raynor/Titan to the Lucifer glassing Vasuda Prime in no time flat.

Thus, you just need to protect (with fleet assets) the important installations in Earth orbit, which doesn't require the entire (or even 90%) of the First Fleet, 24/7.

The second and third work together where they can the first basically just sits there, the briefings and story elements in the opening missions hint that its not until the assault at the start of WiH when the first starts to get involved in the conflict in any serious manner.  As for deterrence, it comes from a combination of guarding key locations and positioning yourself for rapid response, which means being near by (a couple of minutes jump away), not engaged with charged jump drives.
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Thus, you just need to protect (with fleet assets) the important installations in Earth orbit, which doesn't require the entire (or even 90%) of the First Fleet, 24/7.

and yet that is what the first fleet does, probably because they are being ready for the GTVA dropping an entire battlegroup in orbit not just a corvette, as was called for in the original GTVA plan, which while abandoned for now is an option that both sides have to constantly evaluate for because it has the potential to win the war in one move.

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5) the GTVA had them committed to defending key targets, there was not the forces available for an overwhelming response
Not really; at that point the blitz had long passed its peak and most of the GTVA ships in Sol had fallen back to lick their wounds and regroup. If diverting a couple frigates (or even a Solaris for just a few minutes...) ensures a kill on a GTVA destroyer (and potentially its escorts), that is absolutely worth the (very temporary) risk.

yep and the UEF need to be prepared for follow up attacks not to mention the damage to surviving UEF ships

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general

1) give a terrorist support and they are yours until ideology conflicts are forced or someone else helps them more.  Also remember the Gaians have been at war with the UEF for a while at this point, it's more of an alliance of convenience than of ideology.
...and the ideology of the GE completely conflicts with the ideology of the GTVA. Not to mention the fact that the GTVA would clearly love for the GE to cease to exist as soon as they were no longer useful (and you could spare the effort for it). And the GTVA is a much bigger threat to the GE than the UEF, in more ways than one.

Even for an alliance of convenience, it's not very convenient if you're helping a faction that wants you dead/defunct, is far more of a threat to you than the UEF, is willing to resort to far harsher methods to attack you, and would know a lot about your vulnerabilities, capabilities, and bases as a result of working with them. If the UEF wins, they'll be far harsher and more aggressive against you for helping the invading army, and if the GTVA wins, they will be much more willing and able to wipe you out than the UEF, and they know a lot about you (including where to hit you). It's something of a no-win deal.

Even if the situation is no win you still try to make the best of it and the GTVA is most likely to win so you can hope that the GTVA will “overlook” your past actions if you help them.  If both sides honour the deal then the GTVA can provide access into other systems, not to mention the die-hards can then start on the GTVA in a couple of years.
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Offline redsniper

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Re: I don't get the GTVA's thinking any more...nor the UEF strategy, in a way
At the end of the day, WiH exists to tell Laporte's story and the larger plot of BP as a whole. It's not some emergent story arising from unbreakable laws of the FS 'verse; the game mechanics, mission design, fluff, etc. are all flexible and twisted to fit the plot.The devs did their damndest to come up with logical reasons for the war and keep things internally consistent, but you're always going to have some contrivances for the sake of narrative. Welcome to fiction. :p
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Offline FireSpawn

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Re: I don't get the GTVA's thinking any more...nor the UEF strategy, in a way
At the end of the day, WiH exists to tell Laporte's story and the larger plot of BP as a whole. It's not some emergent story arising from unbreakable laws of the FS 'verse; the game mechanics, mission design, fluff, etc. are all flexible and twisted to fit the plot.The devs did their damndest to come up with logical reasons for the war and keep things internally consistent, but you're always going to have some contrivances for the sake of narrative. Welcome to fiction. :p

And this is one of the most celebrated and wonderous things to come from fiction...Discussion! Sure the devs did their best to convey the story in a way that makes the most sense, but there will always be stuff that won't, and stuff like this is better than going "ZOMG, DAT THING THAR DIDN MAKE SENSE, STROY PPLZ TELL US Y IT HAPPEN!"

Well that's my reason here at least. I love a good debate. Sometimes I'll even debate on my own, for I am a Master Debater, and that's just how I roll!
If you hit it and it bleeds, you can kill it. If you hit it and it doesn't bleed...You are obviously not hitting hard enough.

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Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.

 

Offline MatthTheGeek

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Re: I don't get the GTVA's thinking any more...nor the UEF strategy, in a way
Sometimes I'll even debate on my own, for I am a Master Debater, and that's just how I roll!
Also called "schizophrenia".
People are stupid, therefore anything popular is at best suspicious.

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Offline FireSpawn

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Re: I don't get the GTVA's thinking any more...nor the UEF strategy, in a way
Sometimes I'll even debate on my own, for I am a Master Debater, and that's just how I roll!
Also called "schizophrenia".

The voices say that I'm not to listen to you. They say that I....That I must....Must....

If you hit it and it bleeds, you can kill it. If you hit it and it doesn't bleed...You are obviously not hitting hard enough.

Greatest Pirate in all the Beach System.

Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.

 
Re: I don't get the GTVA's thinking any more...nor the UEF strategy, in a way
Sometimes I'll even debate on my own, for I am a Master Debater, and that's just how I roll!
Also called "schizophrenia".

The voices say that I'm not to listen to you. They say that I....That I must....Must....



 :lol:

I salute you sir, on a meme-well-done.

---------

Oh, yeah, forgot to mention before: correct me if I'm wrong, but what good is keeping a third of your forces in one place as a deterrent if the enemy (correctly) assumes that you won't ever deploy more than a token force? A fleet-in-being loses most of its value when the enemy learns to just assume that you'll never actually deploy it. It's like divide-and-conquer where the enemy deliberately and willingly divides itself and sits there whistling as each third gets whittled down over time. I get Byrne's "stay the course" mentality, but there's a difference between staying committed to a defensive war and sitting in your base and sending nothing but a token force to help your allies as they get overrun by a numerically superior force (numerically superior because it's "1 vs. 1/3 or 2/3", followed by "1 vs. 1/3"). Does Byrne expect that, despite sitting inside his main the whole game, he'll be fine once his Ghost Academy finishes?
Delenda Est delenda est.

(Yay gratuitous Latin.)