[Aesaar]

What I dont share is your fixation on them keeping every promise and every date. It seems like a nitpicking. As long as I get a great game in the end, I dont give a damn if they deliver it 5 years late and with some stretchgoals missing. What they need to do now is to demonstrate overall development progress with a 3.0 release. If they do that, my hype levels shall restore. If not, I shall become buttfrustrated. Things like number of systems and detailed kickstarter promises dont matter much.

I've said it before, but I know skipping over parts of posts you can't respond to is something you can't help doing.

Again, missing a date isn't the problem.  Missing every date is.  And they have missed every date they ever set.  Just with 3.0, CR said, last year, that 3.0 would be released before the end of 2016.  Then he said it'd be released in July.  Now it's been pushed back to August.  At what point does it look like he's a competent manager?


And again, how do you know that CIG won't cut something that you actually care about in the future?  Their word isn't good enough.  I knew they'd have to make cuts while you were still arguing that the scope of the game was perfectly achievable.  If CIG didn't know this, they're incompetent.  If they did, they continued saying the game would have 100 systems when they knew it wouldn't (and they're still doing it).  Either they lied or they're idiots.  Pick one.

How do you deal with the fact that the game CIG promised is almost certainly not going to be the game they deliver (if they deliver an actual game at all)?  And how long are you willing to make excuses for them?

The News is old with the 10 Systems.
Back in 2016 GamesCom Chris told that already to Jörg Langer, Founder of Gamestar and now Founder of Gamersglobal.de

http://www.gamersglobal.de/preview/star-citizen-2016
I told that several times in the RSI Forum but no one believe it...

“Wir könnten also irgendwann nach Ende 2017 sagen: Wir haben jetzt genug Spiel drin, wir haben vielleicht zehn Sternensysteme fertig, und wir nennen das dann den Release von Star Citizen.” Die weiteren rund 90 Sonnensysteme würden dann nach und nach fertiggestellt, und natürlich auch weitere Inhalte und Features

"We can say sometime after 2017: We have enough game, we have maybe ten starsystems done and we call that Release of Star Citizen. The other about 90 Starsystems will be done after with of Course new Content.

That is a year ago...

Ok, and where's CIG announcing it to the community?  Why is this coming from a 3rd party when SC supposedly has the most open development ever (it doesn't).

[666maslo666]

Again, missing a date isn't the problem.  Missing every date is.  And they have missed every date they ever set.  Just with 3.0, CR said, last year, that 3.0 would be released before the end of 2016.  Then he said it'd be released in July.  Now it's been pushed back to August.  At what point does it look like he's a competent manager?

It does point to a certain incompetency. On the other hand, missing dates is nothing unusual in game industry, especially for such complex games, and as I said, it is the end result that counts and not delays. So it is a cause for concern, but not as fatal as you think it is.

And again, how do you know that CIG won't cut something that you actually care about in the future?  Their word isn't good enough.

Their word isnt good enough because scope of the game changed during development? I totally reject such conclusions. You see changing requirements/scope as some kind of a bad thing and treason on backers. I see it as a completely normal part of development, and to be expected. They may or may not change something I care about. I will adjust my opinion of the game when they do. Not before.

I knew they'd have to make cuts while you were still arguing that the scope of the game was perfectly achievable.  If CIG didn't know this, they're incompetent.  If they did, they continued saying the game would have 100 systems when they knew it wouldn't (and they're still doing it).  Either they lied or they're idiots.  Pick one.

100 systems was possibly achievable when they were a mere collection of fixed areas with autopilot paths in between. 100 systems is not achievable now. So they are neither liars nor idiots. As for 100 systems remaining on the website, again, nitpicking. They probably made that page long ago, copied some list of features from the kickstarter, and then forgot about maintaining every detailed line as they have hopefully better things to do. You see it as some kind of a legal contract where every mistake or inaccuracy is fatal, instead of a webpage of a game under development.

How do you deal with the fact that the game CIG promised is almost certainly not going to be the game they deliver (if they deliver an actual game at all)?  And how long are you willing to make excuses for them?

As long as the game overall is good, I deal with it by not giving a damn. As long as it wont be, I will then deal with it by proclaiming Roberts to be an incompetent developer. It is still too soon for that IMHO.

[Aesaar]

Again, missing a date isn't the problem.  Missing every date is.  And they have missed every date they ever set.  Just with 3.0, CR said, last year, that 3.0 would be released before the end of 2016.  Then he said it'd be released in July.  Now it's been pushed back to August.  At what point does it look like he's a competent manager?

It does point to a certain incompetency. On the other hand, missing dates is nothing unusual in game industry, especially for such complex games, and as I said, it is the end result that counts and not delays. So it is a cause for concern, but not as fatal as you think it is.

  Did you even read the first sentence?  For the millionth time, missing a date isn't a problem.  Missing every date is.  Missing every date most certainly is extremely unusual in the industry, which you'd know if you knew anything about how successful games are made.

100 systems was possibly achievable when they were a mere collection of fixed areas with autopilot paths in between. 100 systems is not achievable now. So they are neither liars nor idiots. As for 100 systems remaining on the website, again, nitpicking. They probably made that page long ago, copied some list of features from the kickstarter, and then forgot about maintaining every detailed line as they have hopefully better things to do. You see it as some kind of a legal contract where every mistake or inaccuracy is fatal, instead of a webpage of a game under development.

  How much did the scope of the game change since 2015?   I say again, if CR thought 100 systems was achievable to SC's level of ~fidelity~ when this was filmed, he's a moron.  If he knew it couldn't be done, he's lying through his teeth.  Which is it?

As long as the game overall is good, I deal with it by not giving a damn. As long as it wont be, I will then deal with it by proclaiming Roberts to be an incompetent developer. It is still too soon for that IMHO.

The game overall isn't good though.  Even fanboys on reddit admit it's in an alpha state and isn't good atm.  It's a buggy mess with nothing to do.  I suspect you'll still insist it's a good game, perhaps echo some other deluded backers in saying it's better than most AAA games, because that tends to be citizen logic.

[Luis Dias]

Aesaar, you're just insufficiently smart to understand gamedevelopment. Star Citizen can fail all dates because it's unique, it's special. Some would call it retarded but that's ableist wording as **** and we won't take that **** anymore in 2017.

[666maslo666]

Did you even read the first sentence?  For the millionth time, missing a date isn't a problem.  Missing every date is.  Missing every date most certainly is extremely unusual in the industry, which you'd know if you knew anything about how successful games are made.

OK, I partially agree with you here. SC development is late and delayed all the time and it does reflect bad on Chris competency. It wont matter at all if the game turns out to be good sometime in the future but it is a cause for concern right now.

How much did the scope of the game change since 2015?   I say again, if CR thought 100 systems was achievable to SC's level of ~fidelity~ when this was filmed, he's a moron.  If he knew it couldn't be done, he's lying through his teeth.  Which is it?

Video is from 2015, when procedural planets were still in infancy. So the scope probably changed a lot since then. This changing scope is actually an issue, because in hindsight Star Citizen should have gone straight for 64-bit coordinates and procedural planets from the very beginning, and maybe a custom engine. Many delays could have been avoided if that was the case, IMHO.

  The game overall isn't good though.  Even fanboys on reddit admit it's in an alpha state and isn't good atm.  It's a buggy mess with nothing to do.  I suspect you'll still insist it's a good game, perhaps echo some other deluded backers in saying it's better than most AAA games, because that tends to be citizen logic.

I meant in the future. Right now it is indeed only good as a glorified tech demo, not a game. Still better flight model than Elite, though 

[Deathsnake]

just the question - what 10 Systems are in the first release 1.0?

[Luis Dias]

I kinda like how BioWare and CGI both realised planetrandombuilding ala NoMansSKy isn't as easy as they first thought.

I'm also pretty sure that once CRoberts saw Limit Theory's and NMS's trailers, his employees were all like "Oooooh boy we're totally ****ed now we have to build that **** too".

[FrikgFeek]

"Oooooh boy we're totally ****ed now we have to build that **** too".

I wouldn't be surprised if they actually operate like that. New space game comes out with some new mechanic, CIG wants to join the cool club and have all those mechanics too.
Almost exactly like Duke Nukem Forever.

[Spoon]

It does point to a certain incompetency. On the other hand, missing dates is nothing unusual in game industry, especially for such complex games, and as I said, it is the end result that counts and not delays. So it is a cause for concern, but not as fatal as you think it is.

Have you considered the possibility that you don't understand game development?

[The E]

If a game misses one milestone, that's not too bad. Things can happen that'll delay other stages of production, not a big deal.
If a game misses every milestone, a publisher would be fully within their rights to cancel production (This is something Derek Smart can tell you about).

If a game misses every single milestone set by themselves in the absence of a publisher, it calls into question their basic ability to estimate the size of the project and the capabilities of the staff.

[Spoon]

But it's not just missing every deadline ever, it's just being blatant liars about it. Deliberately deceitful.
There is no way that Croberts didn't know that 3.0 wasn't even close to being finished when he rambled about it on his last two conventions. There is no way that he wasn't aware that sq42 is no where close to being playable, yet he gives impossible date after date.
You're not going to convince me that it's just plain bumbling incompetence at this point anymore. They know they're hosed, and they're just employing every scumy tactic in the book, to avoid losing the hook they have in the mouth of the whales.
Because if it was honest, fair and open development, last gamescom/citizencon he would have come onto stage and told everyone the plain and simple truth, sq42 is still a far way off to seeing any kind of release. Instead croberts choose to tell bogus. Promising yet another december deadline, that they will then quietly pass by.

[The E]

Yep. Them missing every deadline and being incompetent is the charitable interpretation of events. Let that sink in.

[Luis Dias]

I actually believe in the charitable interpretation. CRoberts strikes me as a pretentious over-ambitious guy who really wants to create this hypermegagame that no one else could ever do, not the kind of guy who is really *just* scamming people out of their money so his wife can pretend to be a hollywood star or whatever. It could be like 70% of the former, a small 30% of the latter? Because hey, money is good. Money is nice.

I wish I had money.

[Lorric]

I also think it's incompetence, due to the detailed stories that have come out from ex-employees. They are trying to build the house on sand.

[Spoon]

Yes yes, croberts is very molyneux in his ambitions and lofty dreams&promises. I don't doubt he doesn't have malice intent, but come on guys. At what point does that stop being a valid defense? How many more years of broken promises, missed deadlines, and blatant lies have to follow before it stops being 'just' incompetence?

[Lorric]

How does incompetence stop being incompetence and turn into something else? It just gets more incompetent.

[Luis Dias]

Yes yes, croberts is very molyneux in his ambitions and lofty dreams&promises. I don't doubt he doesn't have malice intent, but come on guys. At what point does that stop being a valid defense? How many more years of broken promises, missed deadlines, and blatant lies have to follow before it stops being 'just' incompetence?

I'm sorry Spoon, did you really mistook my comment as a defence of Chris Roberts?

...


BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[Spoon]

Surely not 

I was just arguing against the charitable interpretation, which I feel at this point is becoming too charitable.

[Aesaar]

I think the reason Croberts keeps going is that he's in way too deep for a clean break and doesn't know how to get off the tiger he's created.  And, well, these idiots keep giving him money and making excuses for him every time he ****s up.

[BlueFlames]

Duke Nukem Forever took fifteen years to develop, and it came out just fine.  Getting stuck in development hell forever and ever is a good thing!  It's a good thing!  My twenty-zillion-dollar pledge is being well spent!  The Space Winnebago is the best investment I've ever made, and the children whose kidneys I sold to fund that investment would surely agree, if they weren't stuck at the dialysis clinic at the moment, for reasons entirely unrelated to Space Winnebagos.