[aldo_14]

Originally posted by AlphaOne
Well as I sai at one point during the timeline the resources for the masive ship building campaign came from new star sistems with gas giants and asteroid fields as well as a dozen suitable planets for colonization. this way there was a constant suply of materials and a constant need for skilled miners pilots, engeniers and so forth. Also lets not forget that during a colonization of a planet you would need a lot of man power to get things started.

not to mention the people needed for ship building and training for manning those ships.

The spending on the milatary was not that huge considwering that they had to postpone at least one project in order to increase production on another. Also remember that the Orion staid in service for over 60 years which is a huge amount of time for a ship class to remain in active service.

Also remember the whole Sol Knossos keep in mind that most of the crews that worked on it worked for free so to speak. Remember they had to reopen the jumpnode as soon as posible.

At least that is ehat I would of done if the perspective was to return home.

Ah, yes, the magic supply of new systems (and how many systems actually have planets or useable resources in real life?)  which suddenly just appear in place.  Somehow also having enough free miners, people, etc to strip-mine them; and apparently instantaneously producing and training people to do this.

And Sol knossos crews would not work for free.  People need to eat, drink and sleep; that doesn't come for free.  If the government provides it, then the government needs to finance that, as well.

And how are you going to make all this anways?  How many models have you got, for example?

[Nuclear1]

Originally posted by Unknown Target
We don't want missions, either, we want a storyline. Missions and useless tech data do not a storyline make.

Give us some characters. Give us some conflict (and not just a vague description of a war; we want conflict between characters, or between groups, and for believable reasons).

[AlphaOne]

Well a problem with "spare" work force would come from Capella. Remember the whole refugee status???
Also because u are now a federation various star sistems are given a limited autonomi to organize and develop its economy.

[aldo_14]

And who's going to fund building homes, hospitals, schools, food & water for said refugees?  How is said fleet going to afford to expand and explore into these magical new resource rich systems with that scale of refugee problem anyways?  And giving systems financial autonomy does not equate to a magic stream of money; if anything it can work against it, specifically by denying economies of scale, and imposing barriers to trade, transport, etc between systems.

anyways, how many ships are made?  How many modellers do you have?  How many weapons are done?  And how many new backgrounds are drawn?

And if the answer is 'none', how many staff do you have?

[Unknown Target]

I believe he stated that he would not be making this as a campaign

[Charismatic]

Agreed with who said the "Tough Love" statement, here.

If i was a leader of a 'people', much smaler or = in size to GTVA or the GTA, i would NOT have money as any form of system. Everyone would do their job, everyone would take what food they needed, everyone would be fine and not starving. Thus you can continously make ships without fear of under funding or economic instability and cancled projects. So you would get all the materials for ship building you needed. I see this as a pritty good system. This way we can keep expanding. Only thing that would pause it would be hits at supply convoys and deopts.

Any comments or speculation about this system?

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by Charismatic
Agreed with who said the "Tough Love" statement, here.

If i was a leader of a 'people', much smaler or = in size to GTVA or the GTA, i would NOT have money as any form of system. Everyone would do their job, everyone would take what food they needed, everyone would be fine and not starving. Thus you can continously make ships without fear of under funding or economic instability and cancled projects. So you would get all the materials for ship building you needed. I see this as a pritty good system. This way we can keep expanding. Only thing that would pause it would be hits at supply convoys and deopts.

Any comments or speculation about this system?

Didn't really work for the USSR, did it?

[TopAce]

Why take care of the financials so much? Are you going to think into it while you are playing the campaign?

[karajorma]

If it makes the universe completely unbelievable then yes.

For instance what would you think of a campaign set 8 years after Capella which had a fleet of 50 Colossi in it?

[TopAce]

I would say that's too many... but that case is not quite comparable with this case.

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by TopAce
I would say that's too many... but that case is not quite comparable with this case.

8 new destroyer types in a period of about 30-40 years which includes no less than 4 major wars (and no less than 3 complete reorganizations of the government and society)?

Put it this way.... imagine a movie where Cuba invades USa on it's own, wins, and occupies.  How enjoyable could that premise be, given that it blatantly screams 'not real!' ?

[TopAce]

Originally posted by aldo_14


8 new destroyer types in a period of about 30-40 years which includes no less than 4 major wars (and no less than 3 complete reorganizations of the government and society)?

Put it this way.... imagine a movie where Cuba invades USa on it's own, wins, and occupies.  How enjoyable could that premise be, given that it blatantly screams 'not real!' ?

The sooner is 'more possible' to happen than the latter.
Use the Star Forge!

[AlphaOne]

Well war seems to be a magic money giver.

Let me explain something to you. Everi time you have a war someone benefits from it finacialy. There are no exceptions.
And if those that benefit from is none other then your own weapons industry then....wooopey....there you go. You are auto financing your own economy by waging war. Of course this does not work for a geart deal of time but for a short 10 or 20 year time it works fine and could be considered as a economical boom.

Rember the money doesn't actualy leave your poket you just move them from one poket to the other and in the meen time you increase trhe amount.

Even the USA and the USSR did that for a while and are dooing it even now but with one diference: the USSR had no other means of financing its economy other then war while the USA did.

The same goes here. The GTVF has trade, mining, and other means of financing its wars besides the arms industry.

Remember that while we are used to seeing the money they sure  as hell dont. You give leases or loans to people in need for lets say building a new house and other stuff. The money resulted from this are used to finance the same branch that produces the equipment and parts and other stuff that they need for their houses mines etc.
So in a way they are working and payng for theyr houses in the same time. Its a vicious circle that can not be so easely explained.

It is much more complicated then that.

Also here is the first character of mi campaign story:

Adm.Vladimir Alexander
Status: married
Age:42
Height: 1.89 m
Weight: 90 kg

Considered by many to be the most briliant milatary strategist Adm. Alexander is by far a simple character. He reached the rank of captain of a corvette at the age of 25.
He destinguished himself both as a fighter-pilot and as a strategist while comanding the GTCv Intrepid.

It was there that his genious showed for the first time.
While engaged in a hot pursuit of a rebel corvette and 2 cruisers he managed not only to win against them but he did that with the least amount of damage to his own ship. He managed to get them to shoot eachother by gooing at high speed between the 2 cruisers and when theyr beam cannons fired they only managed to clip his ship but the full brunt of the weapon fire was suffered by the cruisers. Then in a coordinated dtrike he managed to subdue the rebell corvette using just one boomber wing and hi own ship.

It was these kinds of event that ensured he would get promoted.

At the age of 30 he was given the command of his own destroyer.

It was an Orion destroyer. While he wanted to get the comand of a Hecate MK II or a newr class of destroyer that was just not posible at the time. But he was not descuraged.

He managed to use the Orion at his full potential and managed to score some amaizing victories agains all odds and aginst an enemy far better equiped then he was.

At the Age of 35 he achieved the rank of RearAdmiral.

He was subsequently given the comand of a better ship but he insisted that he keep his old crew.

At the age of 38 he became a full admiral and was named in comand of the GTVF V-th fleet.

He is also the pioneer of a new strategi employed by the GTVF one wich has become a "must" for every starship captain in the fleet. It was these kinds of achievements that have alowed his to rise this far in such short time.

While he is one of the youngest Admirals ever he is by far one of the greatest soldiers that ever lived.

While caucios and reserved when it came to engaging enemy forces especialy when intel was insuficent to give an acurate picture of the battlefield he could always be counted on for his great intuiton and ferocius atitude once engaged in a battle.

He has become one of the most feared and respected officers in the GTVF.

GTVF command had offered him a place in the higher echelons of the milatary but he refused arguing that he would be more usefull on the battlefield then behind some desk.

However this does not mean that the GTVF High Command does not ask his opinion whenever they are confrunted with a threat.

He has become "the GTVF fireman" because of his incredible abilaty to turn a hopless situation in his favor.

[TopAce]

Sounds good written, but how do you want to make it real?
It's easy to say your Admiral can defeat a fleet more advanced and larger than his, but how do you put it in a mission?

[karajorma]

Originally posted by aldo_14
Put it this way.... imagine a movie where Cuba invades USa on it's own, wins, and occupies.  How enjoyable could that premise be, given that it blatantly screams 'not real!' ?

I was going to say RED DAWN! But the ruskies help them there

[Hellbender]

The story line, such as it is is indeed pretty weak. It's not totally unsalvagable, but considering the work it would take, I dunno. Here's my take on the discussion so far though.

Even with a social group as large as the GTVA it's not impossible or even really improbable that radical changes in government could take place in a relativly short period of time. Volition did it with the Vasudans and the Terrans not far prior to the present game timeline if you need a canon reference.

Here's something else I'm going to point out: A lot of people continue to say that the GTVA military was decimated (referring btw to having one in ten of a military force destroyed, not one in ten surviving), however in the game itself, reference during the campaign is made only to a few of the GTVA military's fleets engaging in combat: 6th Terran Fleet, 3rd Terran Fleet, and the 13th Vasudan Battlegroup. There is little mention of the other fleets, and none that I could find of any others engaging in the current conflicts.

The NTF gained much of its resources from the 6th Terran Fleet which was commanded by Bosch before the rebellion, though the unit still existed as a GTVA fleet during the campaign. It is unclear what other units, if any he may have co-opted. He did have access to at least one shipyard however, so it would be realistic to expext the rebels would have at least some new construction.

There were only a handful of systems involved in the NTF rebellion, and only one populated system invaded and destroyed by the Shivans. Though this left Capella's population temporarily homeless, it is rather silly to think the refugees would not be granted homes in the systems ravaged by the rebellion, as the extra manpower would be needed for rebuilding, and therefore most welcome.

As far as the large number of new ship classes, actually with the large number of conflicts in a relativly short time frame, it's not so unfeasable. You need only to take a good look at naval design evolution during WW1 and WW2, and the between war period. There were numerous new ship designs of all classes during each time period. They were spurred on by the conflict, rather than being retarded by it.

The generally ineffective management of all conflicts fron the Terran-Vasudan war to present by Volition's canon governments would be plenty of reason for rebellion/reform. Incompetence by those in power usually leads to their loss of that power.

EDIT: AlphaOne, I'm going to make a suggestion to you. It's not a flame, but some constructive criticism. You need to improve your writing skills. I'd suggest taking classes if you are truly passionate about telling a good story. Your story ideas are not exactly origional from what I've seen. They have a very childish quality to them. While this is not necessarily a really bad thing, it doesn't really work well when writing about war, even a science fictional war. A final suggestion as well, take the time to study your subject. read up on the history of major conflicts. Reality is stranger than fiction, and an excellent place to draw your inspiration from. This will help you mature as a writer.

[TopAce]

You need no classes, just listen to the critisms and take our advice.

~#~

[RED DIAMOND]

While it is clear that the story could use some punching up, I really like that some people are willing to let go of cannon and present their own ideas, good for you.

New ideas for the Ancients, Shivans, GTVA and any other new entities post Capella(ala inferno with the EA) are good for the life of the sim at present.

Keep working on the development of your story, by taking the "tough love" from the cannonites and using it to fill in the gaps. Revisions/rewrites are good, don't be afraid to shake it up a bit. Good luck.

[pyro-manic]

AlphaOne, you evidently don't understand how an economy works. Money doesn't just "appear" out of nowhere. If you spend vast amounts on the military, sure, the military-industrial corporations will get filthy rich (certain current events are a good example of that), but the money you pay them to build you weapons is gone. It's been spent. So you have less money to spend on everything else. You can't create money from nothing. Hell, just look at what happened to Britain in the first half of the 20th century - we went from superpower empire to second-rate country inside a few decades.

Anyway - I'd agree with what others have said. You need to write a story before you can make a campaign. You can't throw together a vague timeline and a few character bios and call it a plot.

[aldo_14]

I'd point out that every time you have a war, many people are ****ed up the ass financially.  Especially civil wars; profiteering is most easily achieved when the war is far enough away no to have an impact upon the profiteer.

Think of our most recent case, such as Iraq - billions poured in over there, for no return.  Or a more obscure war, like the Ethopia - Eritrea war, which has certainly not helped either country but plunged them into even further famine and destitution.

And the USA/USSR is a strange comparison, when you consider the USSR wasn't (and isn't) exactly short of resources like oil (Caspian sea oil, for example), metal, ore, and soforth.  Or even manpower - cheap labour from the Gulags - and yet still the remnants struggle to recover economically.

Or to take your specific example;

[q]Remember that while we are used to seeing the money they sure as hell dont. You give leases or loans to people in need for lets say building a new house and other stuff. The money resulted from this are used to finance the same branch that produces the equipment and parts and other stuff that they need for their houses mines etc.
So in a way they are working and payng for theyr houses in the same time. Its a vicious circle that can not be so easely explained.[/q]

Now this is nonsensical (insofar as I can understand it from what you've said).  

A gives B a loan.

B works to pay off loan.  

The interest/profit off of Bs repayments is used (by A) to pay for not only Bs initial loan, but also buy equipment, resources and every consumeable required.  

But who pays B the money for these extortionate repayments (because they'd have to be to buy all that)? A can't - they have to buy all this equipment in order to either provide or sell it to B.

The 'moving money from one pocket to the other' is also a daft idea; that's a method of faking how much money you have to an outside party, not managing an economy.  And ultimately, it comes back and bites you in the ass when you have to pay for it.