[chief1983]

Ok, one of the things I've noticed so far is that we seem to have a lot of skilled modelers, but no one with a whole lot of experience of actually putting a model in game.  I can tell, because we still don't have a stable model in game .

Anyway, to help fix this, I really think we need to set up somewhat of a process.  Right now, it seems to be model, uv, texture, export to pof.  The problem with this is that the model itself never undergoes any sort of sanity or conversion testing, at least not specifically FS2 related.  What I would really suggest that we do is forgo any real texture work until the model itself is done in game.  This would involve simply slapping on a tiled texture, which takes a very minimal amount of time compared to proper UVing and texturing, and then attempting the export process.  So far, I've worked with several models, all of which seem to be having stability issues, and will probably have to be fixed, which will I believe require more work to be done overall than if it had been fixed in the first place.  Anyway, let me know what you think.

One more thing, we probably should wait to do some of this until bob and kaz get pcs2 fixed, and it has the very useful geometry error detection.

[Vasudan Admiral]

Well in the meantime you could use PCS1 - there are PCS compatible hierarchy setups for COBs that you can achieve without actually opening a model in truespace. As is, PCS1 is still close to 100% reliable when it comes to model stability checking. If something crashes PCS, it would almost certainly crash or at least cause problems in FS. As such, if you're after release-level-quality POFs, that'd be your best bet.

Can you describe in more detail the kinds of stability issues you're encountering, and what processes were used to get it in-game?

=========

The best conversion process for each modeler will vary depending on what tools they have, but there are 4 main (fairly similar) avenues to take:

1) Modeling in 3DS Max > exporting a POF using Styxx's POF exporter plugin. This approach unfortunately has several known issues including random crashing of 3DS, improper collision detection, faulty radius and I think some other errors that can sometimes crop up.

2) Modeling in a non-TS app > saving as COB > PCS conversion. Because of bad/incomplete exporters, this rarely works. Typically you will lose hierarchy information or smoothing groups or all the objects will get merged into one. Blender comes pretty close here using Water's COB script, but I don't know of any other non-TS modelling programs that can save directly to COB.

3) Modeling in a non-TS app > saving as the apps native object format (EG: 3DS) > converting to COB using 3D Exploration > PCS conversion. This method should work for programs like Sketch-Up as well as the big ones like 3DS. It will involve some experimentation as to how to correctly format it so everything will save correctly, but it can be done.

4) Using TS as the final stepping stone in the process before PCS. This is probably the most reliable approach of all, because though I still hate it's guts, TS is the best app for saving correctly formatted COB files and aside from method #1, it's probably the only way you will be able to get any kind of smoothing groups happening.

[chief1983]

I'm not sure what the exact issues are, but I know that most of our models were breaking the new PCS2 geometry check, when some known good models were not.  Whether that means they are bad or not, I don't know, but we definitely need to improve the conversion process, and start testing the meshes earlier on for FS compatibility.

[Vasudan Admiral]

There are only a couple of types of mesh error cases where having UV and textures applied will make it any harder to fix. As such having a pre-texturing conversion test probably won't help much, since a huge array of errors only show up only after the hierarchy is completed.

Typically you'll get errors in the LODs or debris meshes themselves due to how they are made - by horrifically mutilating the original mesh.

[chief1983]

These are mostly errors in the base mesh I believe, concave or convex polygons or whatever.  Most of our models don't even have LODs or debris yet, so I'm pretty sure it's not related to that.  I just figured that having to go back to the very base mesh of the model would definitely mean redoing some of what had already been done for texturing, I'm not sure how much though.  But then this way we'd know we have a rock solid base mesh to start with.

[maje]

I like this idea.  Even if there are models without UV maps, it will be good to at least know at what point things start getting all whacked, theoretically making error correction easier.

In fact, I think that the art end and conversion end should be implemented simultaneously, as in start getting the necessary slots ready for the ship in FS2 while the Base model is being worked on.  When the base modeling is done, export to pof and see if ship will run in-game (just input minimum values to get it in FS2, we want to see if it will actually render correctly).  If the first test is successful, texturing can begin and when that's finished, export to POF again for Test 2 (may be a bit unnecessary, but I'd test it first after UVs are laid out, then for color map, then specular, then glow, and then normal).  When that passes, create LODs (test for each one), and then debris model.

[Vasudan Admiral]

Ooh, nonono - from experience, POF data absolutely needs to go in once the model conversion has been finalised.  Otherwise slight scale changes or whatever can totally screw it up and require you to re-enter everything. Believe me on that one.

The process I use to get a ship in game with a minimum of redundant work is this:
1) Model -> UV -> Texture -> LOD -> Debrisify in my non-TS app.
2) Make ONE model of each different type of turret and have them on the model also.
3) Import all this into TS and set up the hierarchy in there - copying the turrets and placing & numbering them as needed.
4) Also in TS, decide on a final scale for the ship, using either a 1:1 ratio or a 20:1 ratio (FS meters : TS meters).
5) Do an initial conversion using PCS (1 or 2) and save.
6) Thoroughly check this conversion over in PCS/modelview before making a quick and dirty .TBM file and test mission.
7) In the test mission do a good collision test - just shoot and ram it in all its potentially problematic areas, and destroy it at the end to make sure the debris works.
8) Once all problems up till this stage have been sorted and the scale is final, enter the pof data and re-test it in mission
9) Make all the fluff like a nice table entry, shine, glow and normal maps etc.

[Topgun]

I am geting every kinda issue possible. and yes I am still alive (barely).
bad nor's, bad bsp's, bad everything.

[Vasudan Admiral]

What's your modelling workflow and conversion process?

[Tempest]

Using older PCS2 builds, I got some of my stuff in game and working fine. I've never had geometry problems, but I'm not sure what problems you guys are having. I do seem to lose the collision mesh when I re-save the model, so I have to re-import data, but if I do this every thing's good.

Scaling isn't much of an issue for us because we have preset sizes for the models that we won't be tweaking much.

Chief, what models are breaking the converter? I've heard there is a pretty much global breakdown of PCS, so it may not be our fault.

[Vasudan Admiral]

Looks like Bob will need some broken models shortly. If any of you have any models that are definitely having problems in the current PCS build, can you post/pm/email them to him?
http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,50099.msg1030174.html#msg1030174

If you have any other errors, be sure to stick them in the PCS2 mantis.

[Turambar]

send the TIE and my proton torpedo.

[chief1983]

Yeah, I'll get the X-Wing (apparently there's a geometry error near the cockpit on one copy of it) and the station too.

[bizzybody]

...but I don't know of any other non-TS modelling programs that can save directly to COB.

Metasequoia and Metasequoia LE (freeware version) can. http://www.metaseq.net/english/index.html

Exports SUF, RDS, COB, SCE, X, POV, LWO, 3DS, OBJ, VRML, DXF
The non-freeware version can only save and load its own MQO format. Kina silly because one could just load it into LE and use that to export to one of the others, though it might lose some things in the translation.