Hard Light Productions Forums
General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: aldo_14 on March 20, 2002, 07:49:16 am
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Do you think there's any need for cruisers in Freespace? Especially as the newer corvette classes can do all they can, and are much stronger?
Personally, I think cruisers are obsolete - and corvettes should replace them completely - being used both as defensive ships, and hunting in packs against destroyers.
The other thing is that cruisers are pretty useless - a few fighters can take them down fairly easily with bombs, and they are not as efficient as a few interceptors in protecting a convoy - or as bombers attacking one.
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ya, i think they're rather useless, but sometimes, their firepower comes in handy. I would not want to take down a moloch when my wing is in interceptors, easier just to disable and disarm it and call in a cruiser to finish it off.
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Play my campaign's first mission.
Deimos vs. Lilith :headz: :doh: :doubt: :sigh:
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Deimos can kick a Lilith any day.
But no, some cruisers can be really a pain in the old behind (khm-khm, Aeolus).
Cruisers rock. They should be fitted with more AAA instead of the puny SGreens, and they'd make one hell of a fighter supression weapon.
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Originally posted by Stunaep
Deimos can kick a Lilith any day.
Not really. Deimos has only slash beams but Lilith pummels it with SRed.
If you play my mission in hard or insane you need to do hell of a work to save Actium. (and stay alive:p )
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Cruisers should probably just become Anti-Fighter/Bomber platforms. They don't do well against anything bigger than themself (except the shivan cruisers, not the Cain though).
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Cruisers seem to be used more as convoy escorts, whereas corvettes are full-power assault warships. They both have their uses though. ;)
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D'OH! :doh: D'OH! :doh: D'OH! :doh: D'OH! :doh: D'OH! :doh:
I read the voting poll and I thought it said "Are cruisers still USEFUL?" and hit Yes; I didn't realize that the poll actually said "Are cruisers OBSOLETE?"
Christ, I feel like a Floridian who voted for Pat Buchanan by mistake. Damn butterfly ballots! :mad::mad2:
If any moderators reads this, please edit the vote count accordingly.
Terran and Vasudan cruisers are still useful as convoy escorts, IMO. As for assault purposes, they're outclassed and outgunned by the Shivan cruiser equivalents, so there's no use in pitting Aeolus, Fenris and Leviathan cruisers against, say, Rakshasas and Liliths (which are much more heavily armed). But defending convoys against Shivan fighters would still be a viable alternative for the Allied cruisers.
Oh, BTW, the Lilith has an LRed, not an SRed, as its main cannon. Now THIS is a cruiser that can be dangerous to larger ships. With its LRed, a Lilith can shred a Hecate destroyer in less than a minute. I should know, I designed the validated multiplayer mission "Knife Fight" where exactly this situation happens if the players aren't careful. If you don't take out the Lilith's LRed in the first few seconds after it appears, the GTD Aquitaine won't survive the mission.
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Of course cruisers are still useful, any mission that requires a cap but not nesecarily a corvette, like escort duty. Cruisers are probably cheaper to build and will always have a role
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I agree that they still have a role guarding convoys. Unless you have a slow convoy, a corvette (or heaven forbid a destroyer) is just going to slow the whole thing down, somthing you don't want in a combat environment.
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Of course cruisers have a role. They eat fighters for breakfast. Watch what two or three Aeoluses in a supporting formation can do.
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Leviathans can be quite a pain as well, especially when they point their flanks at you, tallk about beams.
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That would be something..
*Alpha Leader, freighter convoy with food supplies jumping in, intercept*
*Oh ****! Their escort is the GTD Aquataine!*
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Originally posted by TheVirtu
That would be something..
*Alpha Leader, freighter convoy with food supplies jumping in, intercept*
*Oh ****! Their escort is the GTD Aquataine!*
LOL!:D That would suck, wouldn't it? Getting pummeled by a Hecate's flak isn't high on my "to do" list... ;)
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Cruiser will continue to have a vital role as fighter-screens for larger vessels, and so have a role in a light-escort role.
The Leviathan and even the Aeolus, are showing their age by the time of the second great war. New cruisers that have been hinted at by the boys at the design depts. of Triton Dynamic, the Akehton Corporation, and others show great promise of expanding the cruisers role in the modern GTVA navy. Improved weapons and fire-control are key components allowing the crusier to fill frontline combat roles.
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Cruisers 0\/\/n!!!
(http://www.tgfx.com/travis/LFC07.jpg)
:D
(no, I haven't finished the damn thing yet, I need to figure out how to get turrets to work, and paths...)
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I remember that thing. I liked it, a lot.
Now that I get a fresh look, why not break it into two models: a cruiser/freighter and a large cargo container that's just a fighterbay? Could be interesting.
Cruisers are still fast enough to act as convoy escort, and can be small mobile command posts over cargo depots. A bit more comfortable than sitting in a fighter for two hours where nothing happens.
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Crusiers, in my opinion are the best class of ships in the game. No other class can do so much while risking so little. Look at all they can do: scout, picket, run interferance, flank, escort and chew thorugh fighters. They've got numbers on their side as well, allowing a well led squadron of ships to take on anything from vetts to jugs with acceptable losses. Properly outfitted, they can hold positions and become integral parts of a defensive lines. Sure, destroyers are flash, vetts have big beams, and jugs are just plain big, but would you send one of those into an unexplored system? **** no! You'll send the more versital, more expendable, and braver cruiser in first. Fighters chewing up your convoy? A fighter squadron would be helpful, but if you had a trio of crusiers covering you to begin with, do you think those fighters would have tried any ****? And how many times could a single, well placed beam, save an entire campaign? A lot, I'm sure.
The crusier class rules all others, and will remain the mainstay of the GTVA fleet for a very long time to come.
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That, boys and girls, is the best answer you will hear
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i think you're overlooking the fact that cruisers are still slower than fighters, and while their firepower is rather impressive, 12 pilots can do a lot more than a crew of 1000 (or however many there are) on a cruiser. A single fighter armed with maxim cannons can take a cruiser down with less than 10 seconds of fire.
Cruisers still have their uses, but they're not what i would use as a all purpose vessel. I personally would much rather send a wing or squadron to recon, for convoy escort, a cruiser with a wing of fighters is a good combo, and for taking down juggs, we have something called bombers, lots and lots of bombers.
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Originally posted by LtNarol
and for taking down juggs, we have something called bombers, lots and lots of bombers.
And kamikaze Atens... :drevil:
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HLC Mauler anyone? :D
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Originally posted by TheVirtu
That would be something..
*Alpha Leader, freighter convoy with food supplies jumping in, intercept*
*Oh ****! Their escort is the GTD Aquataine!*
Nah. Hecates are simple. Put a Deimos or an Aeolus (which is a cruisers btw) as escort, then I'm worried.
Hell, better yet, put two Deimoses.
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Two Corvettes are better at defending a convoy than a Destroyer, for a few reasons, maybe 2 cruisers could do better as well
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Originally posted by Eishtmo
Crusiers, in my opinion are the best class of ships in the game. No other class can do so much while risking so little. Look at all they can do: scout, picket, run interferance, flank, escort and chew thorugh fighters. They've got numbers on their side as well, allowing a well led squadron of ships to take on anything from vetts to jugs with acceptable losses.
That depends on your estimation on cruiser Vs corvette strength. IMO, a corvette is roughly as powerful as 2 crusiers, but will have less crew. Also, the Terran (and Vasduan) ships are equipped with enough flanking weaponry to inflict damage on multiple targets. With the frontal focused Shivans, you may get a bit more joy, though.
Properly outfitted, they can hold positions and become integral parts of a defensive lines. Sure, destroyers are flash, vetts have big beams, and jugs are just plain big, but would you send one of those into an unexplored system? **** no! You'll send the more versital, more expendable, and braver cruiser in first.
I'd send a wing of scout fighters, or an escorted Faustus. I've I expected severe resistance, or possible hostiles, i'd send in a destroyer with full fighter complement to 'draw out' hostiles, ala Gamma Drac nebula.
Fighters chewing up your convoy? A fighter squadron would be helpful, but if you had a trio of crusiers covering you to begin with, do you think those fighters would have tried any ****? And how many times could a single, well placed beam, save an entire campaign? A lot, I'm sure.
I have no hesitation taking on a cruiser, especially with a heavy bomb like the Cyclops or even the Helios (in fact, even a bank of dumbfires does enough damage). Without AAAf (and it's not too hard to avoid AAAf firing angles) or flak, they're mostly harmless - especially the old Leviathan and Fenris classes. Even a pair of Maxims can badly damage a cruiser, and if you take out the engines the convoy is effectively left unescorted.
Of course, with three it's tougher, but that would be a massive deployment of resources for normal supply convoys, based on what I've seen.
Also, in using cruisers, you're forcing the rest of the convoy to keep pace with them. If you use fighters, you can crank up the convoys' engines and get out fast as possible. And the blastwave from a cruiser could damage the convoy itself.
The crusier class rules all others, and will remain the mainstay of the GTVA fleet for a very long time to come.
Personally, I don't think so. I interpret the FS2 tehcroom description for the Deimos, and the lack of a new GTVA cruiser, as signalling the replacement of the cruiser class ships with corvettes.
Part of my question was whether the Corvette classes to carry out the cruiser role in the 'new' fleet.
:)
Oh, and all Vasudan cruisers are totally useless;7
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Originally posted by aldo_14
Oh, and all Vasudan cruisers are totally useless;7
:nod:
Since the thing won't actually let me vote, I'll just tell you what I think:
Attacking the Fenris is a genuinely funny experience. Watching those 10000 hp crumble away makes you glad you're not the one driving the bloody thing. Of course, we all know the Fenris is useless.
However, modern cruisers are important in terms of strategic as well as asthetic values. Take Aldo's Orc, for example. Without wanting to give too much away, it's fast and it's covered with AAA stuff. This is what we want from a cruiser. Out of the Fenris, Lev and the Aeolus, which is actually best? Nobody will admit to liking the Aeolus, but rememeber that it goes at speed 35 and has two (count em) two beams as opposed to the Fen/Lev's one. The millions of anti-fighter turrets make it an ideal cruiser.
I think you're right in saying cruisers have no place in cap-ship fighting, but I think cruisers satisfy this recent craze for 'gunships'. Any new cruiser must be fast and covered in AAA, and preferably boast 35k+ hitpoints.
And just for a moment, try to imagine FS2 without crusiers. That leaves the Terrans with the Deimos, Hecate and Orion. In one move you've halved the variety of cap ships available... personally I try to keep such things nicely varied (which is why I asked you about the Orc and the Gryphon)
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Personally, my favorite class is the corvette, lots of firepower for its size.
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Cruisers are good in six-packs or more. Problem is really that everyone keeps thinking they're supposed to be used like little corvettes or destroyers, when really they're only effective in bulk- and then they're quite effective. Shoot your damn ass off as soon as look at you, they do.
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the problem with mass deployments of cruisers is that there are not that many in each fleet, only 24 i believe (ask su-teph, he made a thing on fleet sizes). Since cruisers fill the gaps in the fleets left by the bigger ships, they're spread so thin that you seldom engage more than 2 or 3 cruisers at one time, in which case i would prefer a wing or 2 of myrmidons over 3 cruisers
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Eh?
Volition used cruisers as little things that blew up easily, making you feel like a hotshot. In custom missions, cruisers are deadly in numbers, and a half dozen would easily be cheaper than a destroyer, and infinitely more cost-effective to boot. All these fanmade "rules" can be observed or disregarded as convenient- there are enough completely contradictory ones around that you'd really have to, anyhow.
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Originally posted by diamondgeezer
Nobody will admit to liking the Aeolus, but rememeber that it goes at speed 35 and has two (count em) two beams as opposed to the Fen/Lev's one. The millions of anti-fighter turrets make it an ideal cruiser.
It only goes 30.
And the Aeolus is my fav FS2 ship. :p
And yes, the maxim kills capships good, which is why I don't like it. If it had short range, it would be good, but as it is, the range advantage is cheesily unfair.
Of course, to be realistic, we'll just let capships have ranges out to 4 or 5 kilometers, with weapons that can destroy fighters in a couple shots........ That's what you tend to get when you have a thousand times the weight to work with.
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Not my favorite, but I've sorted ways for it to kick ass... like most things in FS, it's largely a matter of how you handle it. Send it on its own against a bomber wing or a corvette, it's meat. Stick it in the middle of a 100-Alastor blockade, that beam cannon is one MEAN son of a...
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Try fighting a cruiser in my campaign; their effectiveness against fighters has been slightly upgraded. ;7
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Bah. Try fighting one in MINE- I changed the designation to Gunboat, actually, since there's more of the first half of that than the second on some.;7
If I ever decide it's worth the poly loss, the new classification cruiser in my TC is more to the destroyer what modern ones are- basically, the only reason I'd put it in would to be to show off and take a Hecate-sized destroyer apart in a couple seconds. But then, I'm a believer in the idea that capships should be practically indestructible compared to fighters, and capable of taking apart a squadron (or largish GTA fleet) with a fraction of its full firepower.:D
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Originally posted by Stryke 9
Bah. Try fighting one in MINE- I changed the designation to Gunboat, actually, since there's more of the first half of that than the second on some.;7
If I ever decide it's worth the poly loss, the new classification cruiser in my TC is more to the destroyer what modern ones are- basically, the only reason I'd put it in would to be to show off and take a Hecate-sized destroyer apart in a couple seconds. But then, I'm a believer in the idea that capships should be practically indestructible compared to fighters, and capable of taking apart a squadron (or largish GTA fleet) with a fraction of its full firepower.:D
I compare it to naval warfare, where a few bombs can do significant damage.
I'm going to experiement a bit with cruisers - Bobboau's susbspace 'submarine-type' thing was a good idea -such as stealth ones (no aspect locking for bobms or beams), species decoys (looks like a friendly - no, it's a bomb!), etc.
But my main use of cruisers is as 'Barneys' , ala Half Life. They die to show the player the way - or at least for a little bit of sacrifice.
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Well, you can still take the Gunships down (if you manage to get up close enough), but I've gotta say- if naval vessels were half a mile to a mile long, they wouldn't sink so easily. Particularly if they were protected by several meters of supertough armor plating all over.
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they wont be able to maneuver very well either
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Is there some FS2 capship I'm missing that can??;)
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i think the colossus maneuvers rather well for a ship its size seeing as it turns so fast and just wacks everything in its way, but in modern naval ships, anything a mile long will displace so much water that turning 90 degrees could take easily half an hour.
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Oh, I have a nice pic for this thread. :D
(http://www.3dap.com/hlp/staff/setekh/akeldama.jpg)
Oh, wait. Cruisers?... Ahhhh, ****. :lol:
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ummm, Steak, the Deimos doesnt have any capship beams there, 2 on the nose and 2 on the engine shield at the very back. And what cruisers, i only see a Fenris
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:sigh: Read what I said, Narol. :p
Besides, if you've seen that render before on the Array, you'll know why there are beams there. :p
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sorry, i try to stay away from the Array 2E for the simple reason that once i go there i wont come out for nearly a day, and i simply dont have that much time to spend daydreaming in render-land :rolleyes:
:D
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Fine. ;) You should find some time to get in there soon, though - it hasn't been updated, but it's still got a helluva lot of cool stuff in there. :D
It's a custom-fitted Deimos. Kickass Edition™.
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ahhh ;)
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YOU DAM HERETIC'S ILL FLAY YOUR SKIN OF YOUR BONES, POUR SALT OVER YOUR NAKED FLESH, ILL TEAR YOUR LIMB BY LIMB ILL STRANGLE YOU WITH YOUR OWN INTESTINS IF YOU DIZZ THE ALL POWERFUL FENRIS EVER AGAIN :headz: or something similar:D
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ok, you get in your slow dumb Fenris and i'll get in my Erinyes and we'll duel ok? bring on your meager weapons, you wont last 30 seconds :p
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Originally posted by Setekh
Oh, I have a nice pic for this thread. :D
(http://www.3dap.com/hlp/staff/setekh/akeldama.jpg)
Oh, wait. Cruisers?... Ahhhh, ****. :lol:
WHOA. I don't care if the beams are in the wrong place, this looks hella cool.
Steak, you just continue to amaze me.
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I like cruisers, but I think they will be phased out, replaced with Gunships ([p1mp] like the THOR [/p1mp] :D) and Corvettes. It makes more sense to deploy 3 or 4 Gunships (Same crew, same cost, Approx. double turrets and 4 way convoy defense) to one cruiser, or 3 cruisers to 1 corvette if you want to attack something bigger. I do like cruisers though.
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Originally posted by Stunaep
WHOA. I don't care if the beams are in the wrong place, this looks hella cool.
Steak, you just continue to amaze me.
Glad you like. ;) Cruiser, cruiser, cruiser... ahhhh, yes...
(http://www.3dap.com/hlp/staff/setekh/aeol-exam.jpg)
:)
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what happened to beam turret 2 and flak turrets 3 and 4? you have 5 and 6 labeled twice
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Originally posted by LtNarol
what happened to beam turret 2 and flak turrets 3 and 4? you have 5 and 6 labeled twice
Can't you do anything except find faults, Narol? They're called mistakes :p
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i was born to be a critic......so no ;)
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On the original subject, cruisers rule. give me the same hitpoints in Liliths instead of a Sathanas any day... ;)
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Older cruisers will be/are being phased out, of course. Newer cruiser classes are quite a powerful asset to any fleet, however.
The key to me for the succesful development of the cruiser into the modern fleet is specialisation. Heavy anti-fighter weaponry on cruisers like the Gryphon and Orc are one helluva deterent to fighters (like berries in a blender, baby!), whereas those with decent anti-cap weapons are quite effective, especially in groups. It is the general purpose cruisers that are useless, basically being underequipped for every task.
Moreover, using a corvette to escort a supply convoy seems like a waste of resources. One just wouldn't do it.
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Originally posted by Sesquipedalian
It is the general purpose cruisers that are useless, basically being underequipped for every task.
*cough* Fenris *cough*
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True, specialization rocks. This ship is useless against Caps, this one get's eaten by fighters, so you put them where they'll be strong. Personally, I'd like to see a specialized cruiser for disabling or even disarming other caps without destroying them. This would be the ultimate in specialization I think that you could get and still call it a 'warship', unlike, say the AWACSs.
The Fenris is too weak as an anti cap, and undergunned as an anti fighter vessel. It's a jack of all trades, master of none.
New smiley too, woo hoo! :) :ha: :)
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Shuvs Black wolf and LtNarol into an escape pod and ejects them into SHivan territory...:devilidea
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Originally posted by Bishop Gantry
Shuvs Black wolf and LtNarol into an escape pod and ejects them into SHivan territory...:devilidea
Well if you want to defend the Fenris, you can get in your slow dumb useless fenris and i'll get in my perseus and we'll see who wins ok?
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3 Thors easily whoop a fenris, I'd say 2, or even 1 would be able to do a decent job of it.
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i've taken down a fenris alone before (in a perseus, probably shoul've taken a herc or a erin), they're no challenge
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I think the development of the cruiser will be split in two directions, as it has been suggested. I think that if cruisers were to be used in an anticap ship role, then the primary quality would be that the main beam has a very long range, and second has high damage. Range is important when fighting ships that are far larger than the cruiser, allowing it to fight outside of the range of the enemies anit ship beams and thus avoid being taken out by the supirior number and power of the beams on the larger vessel.
By taking this approach, the cruiser would serve an invaluable supporting role, both in large fleet engagments, and even in strike missions.
At the same time cruisers that are built to take on fighters and bombers would also have a very useful prupose. Not only can they be important in convoy escort, but they can prove crucial in providing additonal protection for larger warships, which thend to balance antiship capabilities with anti fighter capabilites. In this role the vessel should probably one have one ter shalsher at the most, for use against easy targets like freighters.
All in all I do not believe that the death of the cruiser has come, but that only an evolutionary stage has arrived where ships are built more to play specific roles and thus work together to protect each other, rather than every ship trying to do every role.
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Originally posted by The Starfox
All in all I do not believe that the death of the cruiser has come, but that only an evolutionary stage has arrived where ships are built more to play specific roles and thus work together to protect each other, rather than every ship trying to do every role.
Yup, that's what Alpha One is for. ;)
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i've taken down a fenris alone before (in a perseus, probably shoul've taken a herc or a erin), they're no challenge
You just have to take an Ares or Sekhmet with a Maxim, and sit back and pound away. :D (anyone who has played Rebel Intercept will know what I mean;) )
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Fastest way to get promoted ;) Or was.....
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RI is still the fasted way to get promoted, it takes less time to finish than that Cetanu mission. As for the Fenris, i killed one with Subachs before, they're hull is made out of paper, with maxim it takes less than 3 seconds in an ares.
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Originally posted by Styxx
On the original subject, cruisers rule. give me the same hitpoints in Liliths instead of a Sathanas any day... ;)
Oh heck yeah... :) How many Liliths is that, anyway? :)
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1,000,000 / 75,000 = 13 Liliths, with 25000 hp left over for a Rahu and a Fenris. ;)
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Lol, so you know your HPs, huh? :D
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or he's less lazy than i am and did open the ships tbl to check :D
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Lol, so you know your HPs, huh? :D
I've spent so much time tinkering with the table sfiles that I think I've picked up most of them by now. :D
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Originally posted by Setekh
Lol, so you know your HPs, huh? :D
It's not that hard to remember. Most ships are fairly standard actually.
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Originally posted by Shrike
It's not that hard to remember. Most ships are fairly standard actually.
True, I suppose. I just haven't looked at the tables for a LONG time. ;)
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Okay here are my thoughts:
1) Cruisers are very useful in terms of mobility. Two or three cruisers can be in more places at once than one corvette.
2) Even though not many people do this with Terran or Vasudan designs, anticap cruisers are l33t.
3) Cruisers are faster than corvettes, so they can chase things.
4) Why not give cruisers some AWACS ability? It's not out of the question. AWACS that can actually defend themselves, wow what an idea. :)
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What, you mean like a Sathanas? :D
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"Congrats Alpha 1, you have shown your skill as an ace fighter pilot, we're giving you your own Fenris class ship to start out with."
"Oh yeah, its a refit from the Great War, your first mission is to attack the final NTF stronghold."
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*shudder*
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Originally posted by Mad Bomber
4) Why not give cruisers some AWACS ability? It's not out of the question. AWACS that can actually defend themselves, wow what an idea. :)
Hey... :p
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awacs equipment most often requires massive amounts of space and as less powerups built up by the ship itself otherwise the weapons powerups would interfere with the awacs scanning equipment... this also includes FS it seems