[Jackal]

Hi I'm new to this board watched the BTRL project for a long time glad you guys split off to make a better game. I was wondering is hitting your target in Diaspora even when leading properly in the circle going to be as hard as it is with the BTRL demo campaign/multiplayer? I don't believe i ever read a post about this so i figured I'd ask. The BTRL guys seem to be more concerned with how good things look than game play. Your project looks more player friendly than BTRL.

[IceFire]

The FreeSpace 2 lead indicator is a time honoured concept of putting a piper where you should be aiming.  The issue isn't so much the piper but the speed at which things happen in BtRL versus standard FreeSpace 2.  I can't remember if anyone working on the Source Code Project (FS2) or the Diaspora folks have looked into a different kind of lead lead indicator but there aren't too many ways of making that work.

There is the modern fighter jet method which to be honest I find kind of confusing or we could use the World War II indicator method which has the piper based on your aim reticle and then it moves around as you maneuver but I think thats even harder.

What were you hoping for?

[Jackal]

A friend suggested making the bullets move faster if possible and make the guns fire in unison. I'm no expert on making games but i would think making the so called "hit box" a bit bigger or, making the rounds themselves bigger in the coding or w/e, but don't make them larger visually this would allow the player to land more shots easier and quicker instead of engaging in a 10 minute dogfight with an AI unit and barely landing any shots. Like i said I'm no expert but maybe someone who is could drop a comment on this and give a solution.

[General Battuta]

You might be having problems with the gun convergence, Jackal. There's an optimal range to attack at, and it's actually pretty short.

[Jackal]

Ive gottin close enough to to kiss the rear end of the enemy and still missed. If its the convergence then they must be converging like right in front of the viper/raider which wouldn't really work in a space combat sim that great in a WW2 sim sure but putting the converging point so close just doesn't make sense. Space combat sims tend to have fighting further apart than in atmosphere fighter sims with the exception of missiles.

[Herra Tohtori]

At that distance and firing position, the enemy is showing it's smallest target profile and the wing root cannons tend to shoot under the Raider and the top cannon shoots over the Raider. The converging distance isn't surefire shot either because the shots cycle rather than fire simultaneously, and the dispersion spreads the rounds a bit too much to my tastes - actual 20 mm cannons are typically very accurate, they just have big recoil which means that it would be more realistic to configure them firing simultaneously which would produce an even recoil. I believe that the series depicts one out of three tracer round configuration which was also typical in WW2 fighter plane ammunition - not all round needs to be visible. I just don't know how feasible this would be to realize - meaning the ammunition loadout types, which would be awesome to configure yourself along with the convergence distance...

Having chance to put in two HE rounds, then one incendiary armour-piercing tracer round... with slightly differing damage/armourpiercing qualities. And convergence distances would be very good to have configurable by player, since people tend to have different flying styles. In IL-2, convergence distances of 100-200 metres are the most functional ones.


Practical help to hit the Cylons where it hurts: roll, and use your left/right/up/down maneuvering thrusters while following the Raider to aquire an advantageous firing position from it's upside or bottom, where it presents largest target area. If you manage to get into a position where the Raider is not moving very fast through the reticle, you can pretty much shoot straight at it.

Also, I personally turned the lead indicator off and use glide mode extensively in combat. The lead indicator isn't always exactly right and I can actually do a better job myself. Deflection shooting is a skill you just need to learn, though... playing IL-2 Sturmovik helps surprisingly lot. Basically to begin, take twice the amount of lead you initially think is necessary, then fire a short burst and observe where the rounds go. Learn to anticipate the Cylons' trajectories and your rounds' velocity.


Multiplayer is another ballgame entirely, and scoring hits with primary weapons requires extraordinarily good response time conditions or being the host... Secondaries are in much more important role than in single player (largely since the single player minicampaign didn't have missiles, but whatever )

[Jackal]

I use to play IL2 loved that game still play it every once in a while.

[karajorma]

I believe that the series depicts one out of three tracer round configuration which was also typical in WW2 fighter plane ammunition - not all round needs to be visible.

The series uses all tracer. I've actually had to watch the firing sequence in Scar and match muzzle flash to visible round in order to prove this.

[Herra Tohtori]

The series uses all tracer. I've actually had to watch the firing sequence in Scar and match muzzle flash to visible round in order to prove this.

Ok, I'll take your word for it. Does it also use cycling weapons? If it does, it's IMO retarded but if they do it in the show, changing it into more sensible solution in the game is obviously something to think twice and hard...

The weapon cycle would obviously offer better rate of fire but reduce accuracy since the recoil would be unsymmetric. An ability to switch from simultaneous to cycled fire mode would be welcome.

[Jackal]

It would make sense the option to link the launchers is there, if the option was there for the guns that would be cool. Really if you think about it that is how they should work if the guns fired one by one the fighter would be unstable since the rounds use some type of explosive to fire as indicated by the muzzle flashes. This option would be better for the game anyway since you would be able to put more rounds on target when scoring a hit. IMO the rounds appear to be rather slow considering your fighting in a zero G environment.

[Vidmaster]

I always loved BtrL and it's approach to weapons. Felt very real and very close to the show.
It suffered from problems in multi of course, since lag had a massive impact then. But still, please Kara, don't chance that formula

[Something]

I found I got a huge increase in hit percentage by slip sliding left/right (depending on the enemy movement, whilst firing on him. I actually learnt that in a training mission!

[Shade]

We're operating with somewhat lower speeds for our fighters than BtRL did, which tends to make fights happen at slightly closer ranges, and in turn makes hitting a bit easier. But not much. Also, our guns have no spread (at least currently)... the bullets go where you aim. That said, trying to hit a raider from the front or rear is still an exercise in futility - The target profile is just too small from that angle. But hey, that's why we have things like glide.

[Vidmaster]

 

how much slower?

[karajorma]

In terms of gameplay, not really. In terms of physics, a lot.

BtRL used a ve ry strange scaling system where 1m was actually 2.5m. The result being that ships had to travel much faster in order to keep things believable. Getting rid of that was one of the first things Diaspora did because it was completely screwing up our attempts to make anything with capships in.

[Shade]

Yeah, gameplay wise it's only a bit slower. It does make hitting things a tad easier though. That said, the feel of it isn't far from BtRL.

[Herra Tohtori]

BtRL used a ve ry strange scaling system where 1m was actually 2.5m

lol wut 

[Shade]

I had much the same reaction after I joined the project and found out. Followed by a lot of banging my head against the desk until our models were finally reconverted to a sane scale. FREDding when each ship uses a subtly different scale and weapon ranges etc. are based on something completely different is... not fun. With just fighters around it's possible to get by, but add in a capital ship or two and things quickly degenerate into insanity.

[Rodo]

how much slower?

I hope not much guys, I loved the speed felling on those vipers of BtrL.... also I have the idea that the environment on the missions helped a lot to figure out the actual speed of the fighters..in freespace you know you are going fast, but there's little things that tells you that, btrl somehow cracked that and actually felt faster (maybe the idea of striding or something like that).

[Jackal]

So scoring hits isnt going to be retardedly hard due to slower speeds?