[newman]

IronForge are you really incapable of comprehending this? It is not just fred-ing! It was never just that. We took an engine, the coders really reworked it, and every single piece of content has been redone. I've already listed it but I'll copy paste it as expecting you to go back and actually read is apparently too much:

Putting aside the fact that both quality models and missions take quite a bit of skill and time (and we're not going for hastily compiled crap but a quality product), where's all the coding, features, bug squashing, GUI graphics, effects (various explosions, tracers and such),music, sound effects, VA, table balancing (then testing and rebalancing time and again), LODs, debris, live debris, destroyable subsystems for models, proper textures with shines, glows and normal maps, concept art, and a well written, consistent plot that wasn't written in 5 minutes...

So we're not even taking a complete game and modifying that since the engine's getting an overhaul too. In all fairness it's as much a mod as say, any FPS that uses an existing engine. In all fairness we're building a whole game from the ground up. As is anyone doing a total conversion. We've told you this a million times already and I really don't know how else to explain it to you.

Unless of yourse you're just casual folks doing 2 h ours a day then it make sense.

What the hell do you think this is, a full time, 9am to 17pm job? Apparently it escaped your attention but we're not getting paid for this. We have jobs and real life, and do this in our free time. Pretty sure we've told you that a million times as well. Comparing this whole process to making a custom warcraft 3 map just proves new insights into how epically big human ignorance can get.
Oh, and I really have no idea where you got the impression that all of the art stuff is done. It's not, there's plenty left to do.

[IronForge]

Unlike the people who have so far posted in this topic, I don't have much tolerance for idiots. Rather than conversing, I get rid of them.

IronForge, consider this a fair warning. Stop trolling or GTFO before I dump you out the airlock.

Eh in all seriousness I'm not trollin, I really don't know why its taking so long, and I do intend to make a campaign once its out. Unless of yourse you're just casual folks doing 2 h ours a day then it make sense. Thats your choice, you're doing this for free so I can't ask you to do more. As for me I'm fairly confident, unless doing missioning for freespace is a LOT harder than mapping for warcraft 3, which it aparently isnt (according to the tutorial). Just didn't actually bother because I feel mapping for singleplayer is futile and unrewarding, but once diaspora is out and there is a multiplayer community heck yeah. As for me I map in bursts, not over long periods like you. I do 20 hour days for 2 weeks before release for Alpha Test and then call it quits. My maps arn't great (only one so far) but 3.2/5 aint bad. In fact I call it a success.

And I don't know why you need so many fredders, I mean the only other people in my team are testers, and a community manager. I import all the JASS (custom writed not supported by my tools) triggers I use, and write the normal triggers (similar to your SeXPs) myself. Triggers are warcraft's equavalent of SeXPs.
Voice acting takes time so... yeah.

Now if I was modifying the warcraft code, it will probably take as long as you did.
1 week of 20 hour a day mapping and I was done with a 2/5 map, then followed by 3 months of testing, bugsquashing and adding features. Heck not even one week. More like 100 hours.

So feel free to thrash me, hardly come by here anymore anyway. But I'm honestly just asking why its taking so long. The question isn;t directed to your team as a whole but just the people making the campaign itself. The models are there, the engine (whats equavalent to my world editor) is there, the SeXPs are ready to be imported from other maps (my equavalent of JASS/trigger system importing). If you don't want to make a botched 3/5 release, maybe you should in all seriousness let me have it and make it. I'll just take a 3 day crashcourse to learn fredding (again, forgot a lot) and get back to you in a month. Thats assuming your models work with Freespace Open's fredder.

I'm being generous I know but quite frankly I doubt he could make anything playable in that time himself let alone find another 2 FREDders dumb enough to help him or get it voice acted in that time.

I don't need two fredders for a 10 mission campaign. Just I me and myself.
If it DOES get 3/5, then we'll talk about voice acting and bug squashing. My motto back in my warcraft development studios is alpha first fix later. MAAAYBE thats why no one wants to work with me because I'm too hardcore for them. As for me I beam with pride when people say I'm so hardcore I have no life. GAMING HARD IS THE BEST LIFE, PHYSICAL SPORTS IS FOR FREAKS.
In fact I reckon 10 days is all I need. I'll get back to you once you release, if you ever release.

And as for you not releasing your models, thats your own personal choice, this is freespace, its different from warcraft no doubt. However back at Hive Workshop we frown on those who don't make their maps freely avaliable for noobs to learn, or 'hide' mapping secrets. Its more for advancing the state of modding that I do my maps. I've been working on my current RPG for 10 days straight already so I don't have much time to stick around and chat. Gotta get back to importing units and triggers and making them work. But mark my words, if there is a strong multiplayer community that its worth my 200 hours of non stop fredding, I don't get bashed to death (near death is ok I'll live) for this post, and off course that you have a BSG fred like BTRL did, you're probably going to be reviewing and picking bones in the egg of my campaign.

You probably don't like me, that goes without saying. However I'm really serious about making a good (3/5 or even 2.5/5 is good amirite?) campaign in tribute to BSG and my love for space shooters. Heck I might as well shut up now till you're released and then prove that I can do it.

30 days max. End of year holidays. non stop fredding. I CAN DO IT.

Where are you going to get the engine support for atmospheric flight?

What engine? Fine, very well. It won't be a planet then it will be a moon. And it will work like the last mission in Raider Wars (that babylon project awesomest campaign evar, in fact to hell with derelict babylon project was best evar).

tried to answer as much as possible, laters, gotta get back to mapping. Doubt I'll pop in anytime soon though my own warcraft project is just gaining steam. I won't dissapoint my clan by taking 10 years to do one stupid RPG.

[General Battuta]

Wow, that guy's an idiot.

He doesn't even understand that a) when you release a campaign you release the models with it and b) he doesn't understand that OF COURSE THERE IS A DIASPORA FRED, IT'S HOW THE CAMPAIGN WAS MADE.

New flash, IronForge: this isn't kiddie modding stuff like Warcraft with its proprietary tools. Anything that the Diaspora team does, you can do, assuming you have the talent.

[IronForge]

1) modeling (it's not done)

NOT MY JOB. I make maps I didn't draw the battleship models. I just make them work in game (something that the moddeler should have done). I'm a mapper not some damn artist.

2) texturing and conversion (it's not done)

Once again not my job.

3) tabling and balancing (it's not done)

Thats my clan's job once the map is out.

4) scriptwriting (which you've never had to do)

Read my script. I'll just remove all the lolspeek, add some depth and that is actually what I intend to do. I emphasize on fun not story.

5) bugtesting (which you don't do)

Again not my job, my clan's

6) actual mission design (which you've never had to do because you don't FRED)

Its multiplayer, I ONLY make multiplayer games. Its single missions.

7) effects design (which you've never had to do since you use Warcraft stock)

Not my job. The people who are doing the engine's job.

8) audio and sound (which you've never had to do since you use Warcraft stock)

I don't use warcraft stock I import. Just go convert the audio format and put it in. Heck forget it I'll just use the existing freespace music. Dunno, I'm not big on music.

9) playtesting (which is separate from bugtesting and which takes a huge amount of time)

My guild's job not mine.

REPEAT ALL I DO IS MAKE THE MAP.

If you are flaming me for saying I'm going to make a not great but playable series of missions in a short time go ahead. However you still haven't given me any real reasons why I CANNOT do this.

I'm not making anything I'm putting stuff together. I'm not testing, else why do I have an alpha test? The aim is to push out maps as fast as possible with the rest of the team testing.

And kiddie stuff? Say that to the hive community and they will bash your head in.

[General Battuta]

REPEAT ALL I DO IS MAKE THE MAP

So why the **** are you here asking Diaspora why it's taking so long when there is so much more to do than 'make the map?

What I'm reading from all this is, you produce untested, buggy ****?

And you're asking why Diaspora hasn't released untested, buggy ****?

So in short you're a crap modder here asking good modders why they aren't crap?

And kiddie stuff? Say that to the hive community and they will bash your head in.

They really won't, because Warcraft modding is extraordinarily limited compared to what's been done on Hard Light. You guys don't even have the source code.

Don't get me wrong, I've played most of the best Warcraft maps (which apparently don't include yours), and there's some really fun creative stuff in there. But on the technical side, it's not a comparable challenge to Diaspora.

[Angelus]

[IronForge]

So why the **** are you here asking Diaspora why it's taking so long when there is so much more to do than 'make the map?

The model is done just not very complete is what I hear. We already have transport models (that mining ship from BTRL), vipers (the one I flew in BTRL). I've been very resource concious when writing my campaign script, I couldn't impliment all my ideas because there were no models. The only thing I need is the battlestar model and the basestar model (which I can see is already done in the video, just not 'very well').

What I'm reading from all this is, you produce untested, buggy ****?

No, in fact I got 5/5 for the lack of bugs score. I just have really good testers and 3 months for me to playtest. Heck I did most of the bug squashing myself.

And you're asking why Diaspora hasn't released untested, buggy ****?

See above. And yes. Why not let your testers do the dirty work of bugsquashing? I'd volunteer.

So in short you're a crap modder here asking good modders why they aren't crap?

Aye? 3.2/5 is NOT crap.

Now I'm already behind frakking schedule today. I gotta finish model imports today or I can't hold my head high in my update tonight to the rest of the clan. So ttyl.

[General Battuta]

No, in fact I got 5/5 for the lack of bugs score. I just have really good testers and 3 months for me to playtest. Heck I did most of the bug squashing myself.

You claimed you could do a mission in a day.

Now you're saying three months.

Pick one.

See above. And yes. Why not let your testers do the dirty work of bugsquashing? I'd volunteer.

Release happens after bugtest, not before. Never mind that there are not enough assets to release.

You keep missing this. The assets are not done. The missions cannot proceed without the art, audio (that doesn't just mean music, it means sound effects) and models behind them. Never mind the code changes that are still happening.

You said you wanted something as good as Beyond the Red Line. The campaign you outlined would not be as good as Beyond the Red Line. It would be significantly worse.

I look forward to what you do produce upon release, because it will be bad, and hopefully once you've learned from the criticism you'll get you'll begin producing good work.

[newman]

1) modeling (it's not done)

NOT MY JOB. I make maps I didn't draw the battleship models. I just make them work in game (something that the moddeler should have done). I'm a mapper not some damn artist.

Yea but it's someone's job. That's why we have teams, you know. And that someone takes time. Time that depends on how much is there to do and how many artists you have available. And of course how much time does each artist have to work on it.

2) texturing and conversion (it's not done)

Once again not my job.

Once again it's someone's job that takes time. We are still talking about the timeframe for the entire project, not just your tiny bit, aren't we? In that case you have to factor in everybody's jobs.

3) tabling and balancing (it's not done)

Thats my clan's job once the map is out.

Ta-dam! Guess what - someone has to do this too. That someone may have to wait for artists and others to complete their stuff first. Waiting on someone else to finish something can take a lot of time in a volunteer project.

REPEAT ALL I DO IS MAKE THE MAP.

So basically what you're saying you are theoretically capable of doing about 1% of the work involved (assuming that making maps for warcraft 3 is somehow similar and about as complex as freding, which it isn't), have no idea about the rest, but still feel you're qualified to make informed decisions on how long should this take?
You know, we see people of all kinds here.. but dude you're really, really special.

[IronForge]

And that's why I'm giving you 30 days from the Diaspora release.

If you haven't released a campaign within 30 days of the Diaspora release that is playable and mostly free of bugs I'm perma-banning you from HLP.

Good luck!

Missed this one/

1 day a mission no problem but what about adding in the props, debugging and adding features (hey why doesn't the viper have any missiles? Oh thats not in alpha).
And I don't mind perma ban because I don't post much. In fact I think I'll just dump this account as soon as possible and get a new one because I've just changed all my online particulars. I've moved house and this is the only account (aside from some in some crappy forums which I don't visit anymore) that hasn;t been abandoned and changed yet. But yeah its the disgrace that I do care. So it won't happen.

How about 30 days after you get 10,000 people on multiplayer? I only make maps because theres an audience of over a million on garena, battlenet and whatever 3rd other platform that was called I forgot. Bout 100k there.
If you have 10k on multi, there will be motivation, probably can do it in LESS than 30 days.

I focus on releasing stuff as fast as possible even if it is in bugged form. But its called ALPHA for a reason. In fact its been 6 months and my map isn't in release yet, still beta.
I'm a rusher when it comes to releasing an alpha. But I'm a perfectionist when it comes to FINAL RELEASE.

So basically what you're saying you are theoretically capable of doing about 1% of the work involved (assuming that making maps for warcraft 3 is somehow similar and about as complex as freding, which it isn't), have no idea about the rest, but still feel you're qualified to make informed decisions on how long should this take? Big grin
You know, we see people of all kinds here.. but dude you're really, really special.

I make maps USING the models, sounds and everything that is avaliable on public domain as most fredders here do. There are lots of campaigns out there, how many of them actually USED THEIR OWN MODELS?  Thats the freespace upgrade project's job isnt it?
My idea of fredding is just what the tutorial says. Take avaliable resources and make something fun out of them.

[newman]

I'm a rusher when it comes to releasing an alpha. But I'm a perfectionist when it comes to FINAL RELEASE.

You're neither, dude. You're just an idiot.

[Swifty]

So, why does this guy keep thinking all we need are models when we kept explaining to him that we need a lot more than just models to produce this game? I mean, wtf, dude, I don't model nor do I FRED but I'm a coder for this team and there are features in the code that are still in development that I'm working on.

And he keeps comparing us to BTRL when the BTRL demo took two years to crank out when it had less missions, less models, less sound, and less resource requirements overall than this current project.

[General Battuta]

I'm a rusher when it comes to releasing an alpha. But I'm a perfectionist when it comes to FINAL RELEASE.

You're neither, dude. You're just an idiot.

He really is.

He apparently doesn't understand that Alphas don't get a public release and that "FINAL RELEASE" is what Diaspora is going to be giving him.

Never mind that he's clearly never FREDded a mission in his life as he's using Warcraft jargon - 'props', 'features'.

Not looking pretty.

So, why does this guy keep thinking all we need are models when we kept explaining to him that we need a lot more than just models to produce this game? I mean, wtf, dude, I don't model nor do I FRED but I'm a coder for this team and there are features in the code that are still in development that I'm working on.

And he keeps comparing us to BTRL when the BTRL demo took two years to crank out when it had less missions, less models, less sound, and less resource requirements overall than this current project.

I think newman provided a decent explanation. 

[IronForge]

Wow so you can't fight my arguments head on and have to resort to using crude insults? Fine anyway I got work to do. Work as in more mapping. And I edited post above read that. I make playable missions like all other fredders. I'm not making models, not making crap. I'm putting stuff together to make a game. I'm the level designer, and like the other fredders we SOURCE our material from outside. We just make the damn mission by writing the triggers, importing in the ships, loading out the weapons, and making them attack each other.

No wonder your maps aren't great.

They are not but 3/5 is a pass. I was aiming for a 4 but hey good enough. Maybe in my final release.

And just what are you implying? That fredding for some 10 year old game (2000 release amirite?) is somehow superior to mapping for warcraft? Wow. You are insulting  A LOT  of people. Not me though I don't get angry easily.

[newman]

I responded to you with arguments in several posts, as did a lot of other people. What you then did was completely ignore all of them them and continued to say things which were debunked already by facts. Which is what places you in the category I specified

[General Battuta]

Wow so you can't fight my arguments head on and have to resort to using crude insults?

No, we already destroyed all your 'arguments'.

You keep NOT READING THIS:

THE ASSETS ARE NOT DONE. THE CODE IS NOT DONE. THE WORK YOU ARE SUGGESTING YOU COULD DO IS ABOUT 1% OF WHAT NEEDS TO BE DONE.

There is no outside to source from. It's just the Diaspora team.

And, again, you've never FREDded a mission, have you?

I gotta admit, this is the most fun I've had on the forums in a while.

[IronForge]

You keep NOT READING THIS:

THE ASSETS ARE NOT DONE. THE CODE IS NOT DONE. THE WORK YOU ARE SUGGESTING YOU COULD DO IS ABOUT 1% OF WHAT NEEDS TO BE DONE.

There is no outside to source from. It's just the Diaspora team.

And, again, you've never FREDded a mission, have you?

Fine, I'm sorry if you were talking about all the stuff you did from day one till now.
However...
Now that the code is done-ish (or are you STILL doing that? code takes time I understand that I'll just pack up and return when its done) and you already have the transport model (if not I'll just import the one from BTRL), you already have the viper model (again if not i'll import), the basestar... I'm not sure how far along you are there, seemed done enough to me, and the battlestar...  

Fredded? I did a simple dogfight with 2 orions as part of 'training', saw that theres no one on multiplayer, said FGSFDS and left.

I also made ships fly in pretty circles long time ago for babylon project but more I'd admit. However just gotta do about 10x what I've done so far, put in a quick story and ding!!!

AND MIND YOU MY MAPS ARE NOT ****. Thousands of maps get released everyday and uploaded on epicwar, hive etc etc. I've surpassed the vast majority of noobish pieces of 'metoo' maps that are nothing more than altered melee, some crappy renamed villagers where somehow that paladin is now called a 'alien', and other improvised spit. Those usually get rejected on the spot so you don;t see them on hive. go to www.epicwar.com download the first 10 maps you see. I'm probably better than 8 of them.

[General Battuta]

Who's 'you'? I'm not even ON the Diaspora team and I understand this stuff.

[IronForge]

Oh who am I directing this to? Whoever is stopping me from making my campaign. No matter how **** it is you have no right to stop me from trying.

[newman]

Are you for real? You QUOTE the part where he tells you the code is not done and wonder if the code is done?
And from your comments it appears that you think we're doing our own version of the btrl demo - we're not, the scope of the project is much larger. We don't have one miner, we have many civilian vessels. We have lots of fighters with flyable cockpits (well, will have cockpits when they're all done). The basestar needs a few tweaks but is mostly done. The battlestar is very far from being done and needs at least a month's worth of work just to finish the textures. There are many code features we're still waiting for and really need before we release. And there are many other things we also need that I already listed at least two times already so forgive me if I don't do it again.
Meh, why do I even bother this was all said many times by many different people already. If you don't want to get it you just don't.