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Archived Boards => The Archive => Terran-Vasudan War => Topic started by: Eishtmo on August 11, 2003, 08:55:17 pm
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Actually, a working type thing. Since we're already delving into ancient Terran history (the U War, which is not canon), might as well try doing something with the Vasudans.
Let's start with what we know of the Vasudans.
1) They're an Empire, ruled by an Emperor.
2) They're homeworld is a desert that was barely habitable in the first place.
3) Technolgoically, they're on par with the Terrans.
4) They're very like Terrans in many ways.
5) They're religious.
6) They had a parliament.
7) Said parliament was dissolved by the Emperor.
8) The Imperial government has existed for nearly 10,000 years.
9) Vasudan tactical doctrine is willing to sacrifice power for volume (the Mekhu).
10) Despite being woefully inferior, the Vasudans continued to use the Anubis fighter for years on the grounds that it was "cheap to produce."
11) Vasuda Prime is intensly resource poor.
Okay, that's enough. Not all of these will come into play in this thing, but they might.
Let's start with the age of the Empire. 10,000 years is a long time, a very long time, so we can safely assume that it has not ruled the whole of Vasuda for that entire time. There is no evidence to establish when the Vasudan parliament was created, however given that the Emperor was able to effectivily dissolve it, one could say that it probably wasn't very long before the 14 Year War, at most two or three generations. The reasoning here is that if Khoson (or however you spell his name) did not have the idea in his head that he could be absolute ruler of the Empire, say from hundreds of years of being the way things are, he might never have even considered dissolving it. However, if his grandfather had been an absolute ruler, he might easily approve of the idea. So the parliament was likely formed in the recent past, perhaps two generations prior to Khoson taking the throne. We're looking at less than one hundred years prior to the war.
With that in mind, let's explore a little about how the Vasudans likely expanded from Vasuda. First, the world they live on is resource poor, especially when it comes to water. This likely kept the population of the planet in check, making it easier for one Emperor to rule it all (backing the idea that parliament is a recent creation). Now, what happens if, say the government loops a comet, with its vast resources of ice, into orbit. The price of water drops, and the population explodes. An exploding population without an exploding availability of jobs leads to poverty.
Poverty plus religious nature does not necessarily lead to religious uprisings, but it could. Vasudan tactical doctrine, which dictates volume over power, seems to indicate that it did. After all, would you rather a big gun that would insta kill one enemy every second, or a small gun that would knock down 10 every second, when a hoard of religious nutjobs willing to die for their cause come running at you?
Okay, now what's the Emperor to do with all these people he never had to deal with before. Artificially raising the price of water might work, but that could kill millions. More humane solution: Get them off the planet. Now there is no evidence to say that the Emperor was humane except for the fact that there still is an Empire and not a smoldering pit of what was once a race.
Now, this is all before subspace (ancient, ancient history), but it sets up what happens next. With the limits of light speed, the Emperor's absolute rule no longer applys to the distant colonies, so they're ruled by governers. NOTE: The Emperor, with even our level of technology, could easily rule the entire planet of Vasuda. Okay, so the governers kind of get used to their remote status, the ability to rule themselves if you will.
Then subspace is discovered. While I can't argue this with any backing, I suspect the Vasudans might have discovered inter subspace with intra. At the moment that's neither here nor there, just my thought on that. It does, however, make one wonder why they hadn't (according to my 14 Year War timeline) discovered Antares earlier. My only explination is that the node to Antares is way out there, farther than most of the Vasuda colonies, and thus just plain missed.
With subspace, any absolute ruler worth his salt would start pushing for greater control over the far flung colonies, which they probably don't like. Relativily independent colonies plus new technology plus absolute ruler trying to use technology to gain more control over colonies equals civil war.
Likely, the colonies formed the parliament and began waging war against the Emperor. Who knows how long this went for or how it went, but eventually the economy, which was already shaky to begin with, probably collapsed and forced both sides to the table. The result was a deal between the Emperor and the parliament which formed the Parliamentary Vasudan Empire (or the other way around if you like, both are correct).
Now, given that the Emperor was able to later dissolve the parliament, it must be reasonable to assume that the power was divided more or less equally between the two parties. A shrewd ruler could, with a little positioning, lead the Vasudan people as a whole to believe that 14 years of warfare and losing the homeworld was the result of the parliament screwing up. This gave him enough leverage to remove parliament and reestablish absolute rule. In other words, the war was, in part, prolonged by one man (Vasudan) wanting to do things his way.
Well, that's a start. Any other opinions?
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11) Vasuda Prime is intensly resource poor.
And the entire goal of Vasudan space exploration was to gather resources, was it not? Sort of like Japan in World War 2, then?
Correct me if I'm not understanding this...
As the empire expanded to other worlds, and new 'governers' began taking control, they had their own 'Unification War' to rebel against Khonsu? Then they managed to ally together, form a government with eachother, then with Khonsu. Found the Terrans, engaged in a war, and when it became clear that they were not going to succeed, the 'Vasudan people' rebelled against the parliament and restored Khonsu to the throne?
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During the restoration period, it is safe to assume that there was a rebellion to reinstate the Imperial bloodline into power (Khonsu II being the heir) Khonsu II was also very pro-terran and his administration consists of master economists as despite loosing their homeworld (as did the Terrans by loosing the node to Sol) the Imperium did not suffer the same economic hardships at the GTA or the Terran blocs.
Part of my dislike of the unification war as a concept for the Terrans is because the GTA and GTVA are just that, alliances. The GTVA is simply a group of formal treaties brining together the Terran blocs and the Vasudan Imperium, while the GTA is probably a similar alliance since the colonies so quickly consolidated themselves into the blocs after contact with Sol and the main body of the GTA was lost. (lack of trust in the old GTA treaties was also inspired by the Hades Rebellion)
If there was a unification war, it should have been contained in Sol and the GTA was formed out of necessity due to off-world exploration, claims, and to prevent conflict. If anything a "Unification War" would have been a cold war between several superpowers in Sol that might have led to groups secretly supporting terrorists, pirates, etc. which then had to come to an end before it escallated too far. (Like Independence War) A cold war like this as opposed to an all out war matches well with the summary mentioned on your site.
Anyway that wasn't the tangent I wanted to go on, back on the main topic :p
In FS2 it is mentioned that the Parliament was known for its corruption, it seems generally agreed here that a small group of people held control over the wealth and power of the Vasudan people under the guise of a 'democracy.'
Probably the old Imperium united the Vasudan people, and shortly before (a generation or so) contact with the Terrans it was overthrown by the Parliament, probably claiming they were freeing the people from kings. Like the communist revolution they became as corrupt as the government before.
Khonsu II during the reconstruction however was able to play on the shakened beliefs of the Vasudan people, and rallied them behind him and promised a new future. He's Aken Bosch, but not genocidal.
If anything, the mindset shown of the Vasudans is very similar to communist Russia "quantity is a quality of its own" and so modeling the Parliament after it would be a good idea.
The GTA makes more sense as a loose alliance as opposed to a true government, it is NATO.
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Originally posted by Ace
During the restoration period, it is safe to assume that there was a rebellion to reinstate the Imperial bloodline into power (Khonsu II being the heir) Khonsu II was also very pro-terran and his administration consists of master economists as despite loosing their homeworld (as did the Terrans by loosing the node to Sol) the Imperium did not suffer the same economic hardships at the GTA or the Terran blocs.
Part of my dislike of the unification war as a concept for the Terrans is because the GTA and GTVA are just that, alliances. The GTVA is simply a group of formal treaties brining together the Terran blocs and the Vasudan Imperium, while the GTA is probably a similar alliance since the colonies so quickly consolidated themselves into the blocs after contact with Sol and the main body of the GTA was lost. (lack of trust in the old GTA treaties was also inspired by the Hades Rebellion)
If there was a unification war, it should have been contained in Sol and the GTA was formed out of necessity due to off-world exploration, claims, and to prevent conflict. If anything a "Unification War" would have been a cold war between several superpowers in Sol that might have led to groups secretly supporting terrorists, pirates, etc. which then had to come to an end before it escallated too far. (Like Independence War) A cold war like this as opposed to an all out war matches well with the summary mentioned on your site.
Anyway that wasn't the tangent I wanted to go on, back on the main topic :p
In FS2 it is mentioned that the Parliament was known for its corruption, it seems generally agreed here that a small group of people held control over the wealth and power of the Vasudan people under the guise of a 'democracy.'
Probably the old Imperium united the Vasudan people, and shortly before (a generation or so) contact with the Terrans it was overthrown by the Parliament, probably claiming they were freeing the people from kings. Like the communist revolution they became as corrupt as the government before.
Khonsu II during the reconstruction however was able to play on the shakened beliefs of the Vasudan people, and rallied them behind him and promised a new future. He's Aken Bosch, but not genocidal.
If anything, the mindset shown of the Vasudans is very similar to communist Russia "quantity is a quality of its own" and so modeling the Parliament after it would be a good idea.
The GTA makes more sense as a loose alliance as opposed to a true government, it is NATO.
Great job! that makes sence alot. This would also fit the the Ref Bible for FS1, that the War started out in a show of arms/Non fireing but show of power, I think it could of been dune by both sides, and that the bible said that they share the same fears. One could say that they both played a part in the start of the 14 year War.
This is all linked to what you said and that the both sides when they first met would of for the most part be happy to find another rase like them, but there would be a small amount of people that would fear change and this could of led to a small take over of the to factions standing guverments Ala see the anime Gundam Wing they had a faction that took over in just a few months, and seeming as this is space it would be ok to say that when the show of power was dune by both sides, small parts of the two fleets under the fear of change could of been taken over easly and then they would of shot at one another, thus the rest would fallow sute.
And so my cuncultions are that both sides are to blame for the starting of the war, and that we as inperfect life forms should model it after that Idea. The Bible said that, and I quote: "Freespace is more than just a War jurnal. It's a reallistic look at the sacrifices one must be willing to make for the sake of our speaciss.
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I agree SG, both sides are to blame for the war. They likely did it for their own, internal issues that had little to do with territory, ideology, xenophobia or anything else. Basically, it's a buch of corrupt politians starting a war to get votes and money.
One thing I want to clear up. In my eyes, the Emperor was never removed from power, he gave up about half his power to the parliament. Khonsu (thanks for the spelling BTW) was the Emperor during the end (and probably the bulk of) the 14 Year War. He held actual power, and used it to try to debunk the parliament who played the "I'm a democracy" game against him. It was only after the Great War did Khonsu have enough popular support (not necessarily a rebellion, mind you) to try to dissolve the parliament.
As for the economic issue, I don't think he had super economists on his side. What helped the Empire recover was the fact that Vasuda Prime was a dump. It had little of value, so most industry moved both off planet and out of system. When Vasuda Prime was vaped, it was an emotional shock, but not a serious economic one. On the other hand, Sol was the center of Terran science and industry, and without it the GTA barely had a leg to stand on.
Now on to arguing the U War, again. A Cold War is actually the perfect description of the events leading up to the discovery of the node and the start of the war. With the discovery of the node, by only one Solar nation (as the current U War storyline is set, and something I don't think you would know), events moved in such a way that it went hot, launching the U War itself. The war ends when the various nations kind of realize that it isn't working and form the GTA.
That's the problem you have with the Unification War, I think, is the name. 'Unification' implys 'conquest,' but this isn't how the war ended. If anything, its probably more like how you want it than you know. We're still shaking out the details of course, but let's get past the U War already, it's making my head hurt.
Sorry I didn't reply earlier, I was busy at a funeral. Later.
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You're welcome on the spelling, but please, Tell us more. I wish they taught this in school. :D
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Originally posted by Raa Tor'h
You're welcome on the spelling, but please, Tell us more. I wish they taught this in school. :D
I know this kind of stuff would be good for like a history/fiction compaire paper, or even better a book!
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Originally posted by StarGunner
I know this kind of stuff would be good for like a history/fiction compaire paper, or even better a book!
Well, that's kind of the idea. The Freespace Universe is pretty bare bones compared to most, with little in the way of details. So, using what we do know along with a touch of history and an imagination, I tried to cobble together the general outline of events. I used the same logic for the timeline and the history of Sol prior to and through the Unification War.
It's mostly for fun, of course, and will never be "official" or even canon.
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I'm back in business.
I got into the Budapest University of Technology and Economics. I'm going to study Mechanical Engineering.
I really like the idea of doing the Vasudan history as well.
*BTW Eishtmo could you have a look at my pre-U-war chronology and see if there's stuff in it we could use?
What I thought could make sense would be adding another element to the whole:
Tribal traditions.
Now I'm thinking about pretty much the arabian concept of a tribe.
After all most of Vasuda is like a desert, so ther could be tons of similarities.
It also explains their maniac and fundamentalist side. With the idea of a static and hierarhic society, the very concept of individualism that's the own of Terrans is completly alien for Vasudan people.
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My idea sorta goes like this:
In the begining most Vasudans were living in small tribes that date back to the prehistorik times.
In the rare places where resources are availible kindoms are found - they resemble the ancient Egypt with god-kings and queens.
These empires manage to hold on their own, but for the lack of resources they can't control more than a couple of cities. (These are essentially polysses)
The revolution comes when these kindoms come into contact with the tribes.
Either a powerful tribe (or Hord - someone like Ghingis Khan could manage a feat like this) took hold of a more powerful kingdom or a kindom adopted a tribe.
The result was a society that had the resources of a settled civilisation with the mobility and dynamism of the nomads.
A culture like this could finally take over other cities and expand its boundaries.
The very problems with this set-up is this ability.
As long as they can expand the conquere stabilises the system.
When they grow too big - the empire collapses and then it's left with an array city states and hordes of nomads.
The later could form the base of an aristocracy, that would dvell on the settled.
This is a semi Middle Age period.
However the lack of resources confines the conflict to a relativly small scale and takes a lot of time.
The Imperium mentioned earlier would arise from a thouzands of years of struggle.
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The Vasudan Empire's power is based on two pillars:
-The tribal heritage that confines them to a hierachic society with complete thrust in the leader and a will to sacrifice anything for the sake of the group. It also creates a sense of unity in the society as whole, but slows down democratic reforms and researh in general. On a political level this creates an intense stuggle for domination and a corrupt bureocracy.
The tribal view of like is a strange mixture of dynamism - the constant change of the nomadic life and the struggle for power-, and a rigid conservatism that tries to preserve the group with cruel and extremely strict traditions.
-The Imperial heritage predates to the ancient city states and empires. It's base is a fundamental one. It's the idea of an empire and the enlightened wisdom of a static world. Unlike the nomads their civilisation is more democratic and the king - or emperor - rules by a set of rules. This explains how can an all powerful god-emperor be justful and aproved. Although all powerful the existence of law makes him abide to his own ones.
The Imperium has united the whole of Vasuda.
The Emperor has gained power as a tribesman, so his power was quite firm, but the hertage system caused a lot of conflict.
So as the time progressed the imperial line was forced to align themselves with the ancient idea of ruler - and in doing so they involunterly enforced a democratic change that later led to the forming of the Vasudan Parlament. (This whole process is similar to the absolutism that existed in Europe).
When the Parlament was dissolved the emperor actually enforced the imperial facet of his power and removed a tribalised structure.
The dual heritage of an emperor creates a constant conflict, where he has to merge two radically different concepts.
It's no wonder most succesful emperors were scholars and philosophers as well.
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My official thoughts on the matter are as follows:
The -V- gods are very good sci-fi readers. Thus they reproduced what they had read, either conciously or unconciously...
-On the Vasudans ...
I firmly believe that the -V- gods took Honor Harrington's Greysonites and ran with it. In that "Honorverse" universe, the Protector "Benjamin" re-took power from the lords that controlled it after generations of eroding the Protectors' power, on the basis of "External threat", which was the case. WHat this translates to in our case?
-The parliament could gradually gain more and more power and with it, a substantial Bureaucracy AND corruption. Merchants and Government contractors could have helped.
-Khonsu could have taken it back "because of Immediate, clear and present danger"
--> On the unification war...
It brings to mind the "traditional" classification on probably all sci-fi space opera, of either Inner worlders (fat, happy and with a big population) and outer worlders (the prodigal sons of inner worlds, the new frontiers, pioneers and such, scarcely populated)-->aka Starfire
OR
--> Like in Man-Kzin wars, in each Terran populated world there are those who settle on the oxygen breathing worlds (heavy worlders) and the other ones who settle on the asteroid belt and use it for a living (the "belters"). You can imagine the tension between them, and the gradual lapse into war. Imagine an asteroid hurled into Earth...
I like the thougths I read so far. Let us keep the conversation going...
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http://pub11.ezboard.com/fjtofrm11
Has literally TONS of info!
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Wow... you guys really thought about this didnt you? Or did this come from a source or manual or... or what?
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Eishtmo has a big imagination and a lot of time.
And somebody should tell you about bumping topics and such.
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Um... what is this about bumping topics exactly? Is bringing back dead topics really such a bad thing?
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Yes, because the information you are bumping is generally outdated and incorrect.
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o_0 but this information isnt out-dated is it? I mean, since you guys arent even done with Chapter 1 then... how much further could it have been updated?
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do not bump old threads. Tends to confuse people and cause disorder in the forums :)
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Also tends to get threads locked... From experience, atleast...
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Jesus... well I'll try and not do it anymore. Sorry for the minor inconvienience.
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Bah. It's okay, TC. If you have a good reason, bumping is fine. :)
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Originally posted by .::Tin Can::.
Wow... you guys really thought about this didnt you? Or did this come from a source or manual or... or what?
A big imagination, yeah that's a good place to start. Most of this is guess work, unfortuantly, with some snippets from various sources (FS1, FS2, Freespace Reference Bible, physics, etc).
However, most of this is, at the very least, inaccurate at the moment. As I've looked into the various subjects a bit more, I'm beginning to get a much clearer view of the FS universe, and these ideas really don't apply much anymore. I'll redo all this later, but for now it's dead.
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Eh? It seems to be pretty valid.
With the possible exception of the Anubis. You said that the Anubis would be almost fearsome in the early part of the war. Maybe used in a swarm situation like it's supposed to, but I would think that one-on-one any fighter could easily take down an Anubis.
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thats wrong.
The anubis has quick, strong firepower.
Kind of an alpha strike weapon. Can quickly deliver deadly payload but hasn't much 'endurance' ;)
Anubis is indeed fearsome.
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But wait. If you're going to build tons of Anubises for swarm situations, you would want them to be quite cheap. So you probably wouldn't make them very strong or give them good weapons.
If you make them strong, then you won't want to waste them on swarms.
Of course, they could be strong in Chapter 2 and then become weaker as the war goes on. But still, you have a swarm of Anubises destroying the Goliath only two years into the war.
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Strong + cheap = possible in this case.
Look, I put some uber-cool weapon on the anubis.
The ammo if (of course) really expensive.
But that's the trick. The Anubis doesn't need much ammo. It's a "30-second" fighter. It can deal massive damage, but only for a very short time.
Who cares if the ammo is out soon? Who cares if the reactor overheats? Who cares if subsystems tend to fail? Who cares if the ship will break after a few years anyway?
The anubis is a cheap short-lived ship, that's why it's cheap to build.
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:wtf: You're not making any sense. If it's strong, it performs well and lasts long. And strong tends to be expensive.
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No.
You're wrong.
Strength =/= durability.
It makes perfect sense. It has powerful ammo. But the amount it carries is very limited. When it runs out of ammo is when it probably resorts to fleeing or kamikaze. Possibly at full throttle, random subsystems begin to fail catastrophically...
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Strong can apply to both weapon strength and hull strength. If you invest in a strong hull or you invest in powerful weapons, you wouldn't want to simply throw the fighter away.
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Anubis = swarm fighter. It brings people down under the sheer weight of fire.
Ever been in a mission where you're surrounded by hostiles and can't take any of them down because you're constantly having to take pot shots at the fighters behind you so they stop shooting you for a second (and don't say you have because you've played Homesick :ick: )?
That's how the Anubis operates. Sure, you can take one down easily enough in a matter of seconds, but when confronted with five or six of them to your single fighter, taking even one of them down suddenly becomes a lot more complicated...
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Exactly. :)
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Originally posted by Goober5000
Strong can apply to both weapon strength and hull strength. If you invest in a strong hull or you invest in powerful weapons, you wouldn't want to simply throw the fighter away.
you can build them really crappy and cheap though, since they can go "kaput" anytime - They don't have to be long-lasting quality.
You just take a ship, pack it with some explosives, and off it goes.
The ammo will be *quite* limited -- it's just:
1) swarm the enemy
2) shoot them down (doesn't matter if 90% of the anubis explode)
3) get back
The Anubis only has to last about 5 hours, it's like a one-time syringe.
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Kinda reminds me about ME 163...
Fast, with heavy firepower but fragile, with really scarce ammo and very short ranged...
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Funny, I was thinking the He-162. After all, the ME-163's primary advantage is its speed, while the Anibus doesn't even have afterburners, so I think it is better compared to the He-162.
Later!
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Vasudan Military Doctrine:
It seems to me that the Vasudan military is sort of vulcan in their doctrine. The needs of the many, outwiegh the needs of the few. What this translates into is the idea that what's important is the Vasudan war effort as a whole, and not the individual soldier.
As a result, we have Vasudan Destroyers, Cruisers and even Freighters which are all superior to their Terran equivelants with better armor and weapons. But then they have cheap fighters, with little armour (and later little shields). Whereas the Terrans use decent ships (less armoured and gunned), but better fighters. Because, to the Terrans the measure of worth on an individual is higher, whereas the Vasudans are more willing to sacrifice thier lives for the greater good (ie Kamikaze attacks).
The crux of the Vasudan philosophy boils down to their escape pods which are designed to carry information, not Vasudans, to safety.
As for the Anubis, I think that it many ways the Vasudans can be compared to WW2-era japanese. The Anubis, likewise as a weak yet potent fighter can be compared to some versions of the Zero or some other fighter which had paper thin armor but a big honking 30mm cannon which could blow apart any other fighter in the sky.
One asks "how can a fighter be deadly yet cheap?". It's simple, the Anubis is built is such large numbers that it is cheap. It's like buying in Bulk, the more you buy, the cheaper it is. It's also why something like the Erinyes or the Ares is an expensive craft in the GTVA, not only is it expensive in the first place, but not many of them are built so its doubly expensive. The Anubis is just the opposite. Its fairly cheap, but build a lot of them and then its really cheap.
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But it was quick. Well, quick enough to be annoying.
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Originally posted by Akalabeth Angel
As for the Anubis, I think that it many ways the Vasudans can be compared to WW2-era japanese. The Anubis, likewise as a weak yet potent fighter can be compared to some versions of the Zero or some other fighter which had paper thin armor but a big honking 30mm cannon which could blow apart any other fighter in the sky.
For the record, AFAIK most Japanese fighters, Zero included, typically mounted 20mm cannons as their heavy weapon of choice, and I believe that the Zero was the lightest aircraft to mount these. Typical weaponry on the Zero was 2 7.7mm machine guns in the fuselage firing synchronized with the propeller, and a single 20mm cannon in each wing, outside the propeller arc. If you want 30mm cannons, I suggest you look to German WW2 aircraft. One variant of the Me-262A mounted 4 30mm and 2 20mm cannons... I wouldn't want to be a B-17 when a pilot of one of those turns his attention my way.
And now, back to the thread.
Later!
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Well, way back in the days of my 4 MB of ram I played Aces of the Pacific, some WW2 flight sim and I recall flying some japanese plane with either a 30mm or a 35mm cannon or something which had only a few rounds of ammo. It may have been even one of those Bomber-types or I could just be wrong, as it was a long time ago.
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Ya, I had Aces of the Pacific too. I can't remember the exact name of the plane, but it was a larger, twin engine design that even had a tail gunner. It had a 37mm in the nose and a 20mm in each engine nacelle IIRC, but planes like this should be considered the exception. Even the US rarely used the 37mm (P-36 Airocobra comes to mind)... in fact, they rarely even used the 20mm, opting for .50 cal machine guns in groups of 4, 6, or 8. As I said, the Germans were the big users of the 30mm, mostly the MK108, though I liked the MK103 better for its armor piercing ammunition and higher muzzle velocity, despite its larger size and greater difficulty to mass produce.
Later!
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Originally posted by Akalabeth Angel
Well, way back in the days of my 4 MB of ram I played Aces of the Pacific, some WW2 flight sim and I recall flying some japanese plane with either a 30mm or a 35mm cannon or something which had only a few rounds of ammo. It may have been even one of those Bomber-types or I could just be wrong, as it was a long time ago.
Can't exactly remember the name but it was the japanese variant of the ME110, with two 20mm and one 37mm cannon...
The Ki45 IIRC... Loved that one in Aces of the Pacific, too bad that it won't run in more modern PCs...
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Won't run?
Never say never...
Have you tried moslow? VDMS Sound? Compatibility mode in WinXP/2000? nolfb for VESA support?
I have this nack for playing relativly old games, and there are tons of options out there.
If everything else falls you could try Dosbox or VitualPc (the best option if you properly set it up, though I lacked the patience and managed to have almost everything running on my current system.)
BTW the general idea of Bushido or Jappanese honour is a bit flawed - it's not that they valued the person less (though the lack of a Platonistic environment also enforces such a behavior) it's more that they took their duty dead sersiouly.
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The Aces series is really hard to run, because it has the nasty extended memory requirement which was a pain to obtain even in DOS, and with any version of windows is next to impossible...
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I'm hoping that Sierra revisits the WWII Aces games in the same style as before, but benefiting from advanced new graphics. It would be akin to the upgrade Red Baron recieved when it went to Red Baron II, which I still fly on occasion. I'd like to see an "Aces of WWII" game which would allow you to fly for either Germany, Italy, Japan, England, Russia, America, and even France, though they weren't in the war with their own hardware for long. A few addons would include pre-WWII conflicts such as the Spanish civil war, or the China/Japan war, both of which use less advanced aircraft, or earlier versions of aircraft that would later see service in WWII. Additional addons would include extension campaigns a la the 1947 addon for AOTP, where history is altered so that the US never dropped their nukes and had to invade Japan, allowing more advanced aircraft to see service from all sides. A similar addon for the European theater would be more difficult, since there are fewer obvious events such as this to serve as launching points of an alternate history. I have my own cool ideas for this, but I would be forced to start a whole other post, as it is rather in-depth.
Later!
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Just let them make Aces of Korea and it will be just the same...
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There was a game called "Sabre Ace" a few years back. I actually bought myself a copy, but barely used it. You could fly different aircraft than just the Sabre, only American though.
Later!
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BTW, there is an old strategy game called flight commander 2 that lets you use most post ww2 aircrafts ever created...
If you can ignore the outdated graphics it's pretty fine...
You can get it at hotu
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Maddox Games' IL-2 Sturmovik Forgotten Battles +Aces Expansion + Pacific Fighters thats what you want!
Best WW2 flightsim ever.
I've played Aces of the Pacific, Pacific Air War, European Air War, Sabre Ace and now this FB+AEP+PF. What game...and it has just about all Jap aircraft, certainly more than AotP had.
the late war Jap fighters like the Ki-61 "Frank" later mounted 2x 20mm and 2x 30mm...but was a fast armoured plane hardly like Zero with it's 20mms at all.
The Anubis is very much like a Zero or even more like the Jap Army's Ki-43 Oscar.
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Vasudan Military Doctrine:
It seems to me that the Vasudan military is sort of vulcan in their doctrine. The needs of the many, outwiegh the needs of the few. What this translates into is the idea that what's important is the Vasudan war effort as a whole, and not the individual soldier.
As a result, we have Vasudan Destroyers, Cruisers and even Freighters which are all superior to their Terran equivelants with better armor and weapons. But then they have cheap fighters, with little armour (and later little shields). Whereas the Terrans use decent ships (less armoured and gunned), but better fighters. Because, to the Terrans the measure of worth on an individual is higher, whereas the Vasudans are more willing to sacrifice thier lives for the greater good (ie Kamikaze attacks).
The crux of the Vasudan philosophy boils down to their escape pods which are designed to carry information, not Vasudans, to safety.
As for the Anubis, I think that it many ways the Vasudans can be compared to WW2-era japanese. The Anubis, likewise as a weak yet potent fighter can be compared to some versions of the Zero or some other fighter which had paper thin armor but a big honking 30mm cannon which could blow apart any other fighter in the sky.
One asks "how can a fighter be deadly yet cheap?". It's simple, the Anubis is built is such large numbers that it is cheap. It's like buying in Bulk, the more you buy, the cheaper it is. It's also why something like the Erinyes or the Ares is an expensive craft in the GTVA, not only is it expensive in the first place, but not many of them are built so its doubly expensive. The Anubis is just the opposite. Its fairly cheap, but build a lot of them and then its really cheap.
Albeit the Aten is a crap cruiser, and the Vasudans also have heavier bombers than the GTA.
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Good job bumping a 2 year old thread for this.
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Good job bumping a 2 year old thread for this.
I try to do my part.
Anyways, keeps this ole forum alive, stops the squatters regrouping.
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Well you gotta remember, the Vasudans had the Anubis at one end, and really excellent fighters like the Seth and the Horus on the other.
In the end, which is worse, starting a new topic about the exact same thing, or bumping an age-old topic up from the grave.
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Albeit the Aten is a crap cruiser, and the Vasudans also have heavier bombers than the GTA.
The Aten is supposed to be "the Vasudans' heaviest cruiser" anyhow (FS1 Aten tech entry). That implies a lighter cruiser of some sort (probably also cheap and extremely disposable). Any plans on that front?
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Ah, necromancy is cool, isnt it? :)
Anyway the Aten sucks as everybody knows,but that remark could true be when the conflict began (it is a 14 war, right). Where is that said?
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Albeit the Aten is a crap cruiser, and the Vasudans also have heavier bombers than the GTA.
The Aten is supposed to be "the Vasudans' heaviest cruiser" anyhow (FS1 Aten tech entry). That implies a lighter cruiser of some sort (probably also cheap and extremely disposable). Any plans on that front?
It could just refer to a now-retired cruiser, or maybe even to the freighters initially confused as being cruisers, though :).
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looks in wonderment at the revival of this thread.
Yeah the zods must have had lighter cruisers, how you can get lighter than two turrets is beyond belief but there ya go, to be hinest the satis frieghter is quite meaty though...
anyhow.....Let this thread die in peace :D
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...Yeah the zods must have had lighter cruisers, how you can get lighter than two turrets is beyond belief...
The Aten has 6 turrets :wtf:
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One of the freighters (I forget which one) was originally assumed to be a light cruiser. Thus, since the Aten is certianlly better than a freighter, they designated it a "heavy cruiser" and the term stuck.
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Bah ! I hate friggin' zods.... :mad2:
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Bah ! I hate friggin' zods.... :mad2:
It's pretty obvious, you know. :lol:
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...Yeah the zods must have had lighter cruisers, how you can get lighter than two turrets is beyond belief...
The Aten has 6 turrets :wtf:
I meant multi parts...........single little light vas-fs1 fire point stlye turrets, bounce off clouds they are so weak...... :doubt: :D
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...Yeah the zods must have had lighter cruisers, how you can get lighter than two turrets is beyond belief...
The Aten has 6 turrets :wtf:
I meant multi parts...........single little light vas-fs1 fire point stlye turrets, bounce off clouds they are so weak...... :doubt: :D
....clouds called shields.
While everyone had to fly bare naked and with their pants down, they were not so puny in my book.
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I played through FS1 on insane, Atens are weak.............
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Yeah, like that one ST mission, with ~6 Atens, that I can play on insane in a Herc
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I played through FS1 on insane, Atens are weak.............
I played FS2 on Insane. The Colossus is weak.
The ships were designed with important roles in mind. That the campaign was created without taking those roles into account isn't the fault of the ship.
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That's true, the Atens were designed to protect convoys, however, they fail miserabley even to do that.
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I believe that there was meant to be several Aten in each convoy (several being 5 to 7) and a **** load of Anubis and a few Seth/Horus, etc in escort. In a situation as such, you in an unshielded Apollo or Valkyrie with a few wingmates would be hard pressed to destroy the convoy.
More so back then than in the FS2 universe, no ship was meant to perform every role by itself. No ships were meant to be protect all vessels. There was supposed to be some sort of cooperation between fighters and capships.
FS2 just threw all that out the window with the Deimos and Sobek, though.
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Makes sense, that is of course assuming that the Aten is cheaper than other cruisers, but I've heard a lot less beliveable statments.
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Ok. Get things in to perspective here. Aten has only 6 turrets, thats an obvious limitation. But it still is a decent light cruiser. It was designed in the dark ages before FS1 and we have no idea about the standarts of those times. But we know that the design was already seasoned in FS1. When you take in to account the lack of shileding fighters had, even one turret is enought to cause damage (wich is generally considered undesireable in combat). And while it is true that a lone aten causes little trouble to a human pilot, even without shields, isn't this also the case with terran cruisers? Minor inconvenience, be it aten or fenris.
The aten is without a doubt hoplessly inferiour design at the time of FS2. After the fighters became shileded, fighters gained superiority over any cruiser, this you cannot deny. But before shield technology, aten was a formidable ship, that presumably could be produced and deployed in great numbers. This is the most important thing to remember here... Aten is ****ing old! But when it was young, it presumably was wery much able to kick ass.
See what i'm talking about?
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Makes sense, that is of course assuming that the Aten is cheaper than other cruisers, but I've heard a lot less beliveable statments.
Well, there is what Prophet said above, and there's also the commonly held belief that the Vasudans did build cheap swarm craft (such as the Anubis) in conjunction with superior heavy assault/intercept ships, such as the Seth and Horus respectively. In such cases, it wouldn't be terribly far fetched to say that the Aten was the capship equivalent to an Anubis. If situations were ever dire enough that a squad of fighters and a few aten couldn't protect a convoy, a Typhon would be deployed. And in such situations, Terran pilots would **** the proverbial brick. (Remember that the Typhon was the pinnacle of Vasudan engineering when it was launched.)
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And the Typhon tech decsription tells of how a single Typhon decimiated an entire terran fleet in their first encounter.
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And the Typhon tech decsription tells of how a single Typhon decimiated an entire terran fleet in their first encounter.
Actually, it doesn't quite say that.
When the first one was sighted at the Vega Engagement, it was laughed at by our technicians as a foolish display of non utilitarian design. The subsequent destruction of the GTD Eisenhower and the total decimation of the 4th fleet changed their minds very quickly.
It never says the Typhon did it alone, but it certianly led the charge. That and we don't know the exact nature of the Vega Engagement. It could have been a series of traps, surprise attacks or just sheer numbers that won the day.
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suffice to say the Typhon kicked ass.
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Terran lovers will always say that there were traps and heavy bombardments. Vasudan lovers will say that a typhon did it almost single handedly.
Of course, Im on the side of the Typhon >..>;;
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I see no reason why it can't be both. After all, traps mean you were smarter than the stupid Terrans, and heavy bombardments meant you were smart enough to bring enough bombs.
It's all in how you look at it.
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Ill concede that point.
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It never says the Typhon did it alone, but it certianly led the charge. That and we don't know the exact nature of the Vega Engagement. It could have been a series of traps, surprise attacks or just sheer numbers that won the day.
Here's what I wrote on the Vega Engagement (http://www.sectorgame.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2066). Certainly not canon, but what the hey.
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Guest viewing is off for that forum.
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Well then, take this! (paste)
The Vega Engagement
Event Date: April 9, 2332
Outcome: Decisive Vasudan victory
The Vega Engagement is the most widely-recognized name of the Third Battle of Vega, and is widely regarded as one of the most botched campaigns the GTA ever attempted to mount (save for the ill-fated Operation Midway (http://www.sectorgame.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=27358)). It is also the first recorded battle in which a PVD Typhon-class destroyer participated.
Prelude to Invasion
Though the GTA 3rd Fleet had briefly succeeded in attacking Vega in the autumn of 2331 during Operation Cardinal Spear, the loss of the jump nodes to and from the Talnia system forced the 3rd Fleet to retreat to Beta Aquilae to avoid being cut off from supplies.
It should be noted that the 3rd Fleet did leave a Karnak-class orbital facility around Vega II in ruins, which Vasudan subterfuge had led them to believe was a major shipyard facility. It was in fact an ore processing facility, not a shipyard in and of itself.
GTA Command found this out in November of 2331 with the capture of the Aten-class PVC Djulran, which had been built at a shipyard orbiting the third moon of Vega V. Upon learning that the Vasudans still had a viable shipyard so close to Terran space, the GTA Security Council and the Admiralty drew up Operations Dao and Jian for the invasion of Vega.
Operation Dao
Operation Dao came first. Its objective was to mislead the Vasudans about the Terran fleet's disposition and intentions.
The 3rd and 4th Fleets both entered Vega, but while the 4th (led by the GTD Eisenhower) moved to the system's outer fringes to await the order to attack, the 3rd (led by the GTD Agamemnon) had to do the duty of two fleets at once, in order to keep the Vasudans confused.
The first few raids went well, but the Vasudans began to catch on to the Terran subterfuge. Eventually, a Vasudan pilot crashed his explosives-laden Amun-class bomber into the side of the Agamemnon, decompressing an entire section of the ship and leaving a rather large hole that the Terrans' vigorous attack plans would not let them repair.
The Vasudans knew there were two fleets in system by the number of supplies coming through the Beta Aquilae node. But they were apparently only engaging one of them, rather than the two they originally thought they had been. They brought in the Typhon-class PVD Victory from Deneb, completed only a month before at the orbital shipyards in Vasuda and equipped with the newest and deadliest fighters, bombers, and weaponry.
Arrogance and Disaster
Admiral Bryant, commander of the Eisenhower, nearly laughed himself out of his chair at the Vasudans' new destroyer design. In his words (recovered from black box recordings) "...it looks more like a fragile sculpture than a warship." Thinking it was a minimal threat to the Eisenhower and its fleet, Bryant gave the order to commence Operation Jian.
Almost immediately upon the Eisenhower entering range of the Vasudan shipyards, the Victory jumped in at close range, emptying a fusillade of weaponry at the bewildered Terrans and taking comparably low damage from the Eisenhower's guns. Bombers and fighters streamed out of the Victory and pummeled cruiser after cruiser into oblivion.
The Agamemnon quickly got wind of its sister ship's predicament and, leading the 3rd Fleet, jumped in to rescue the 4th. Unfortunately, it was too late for the Eisenhower, which was completely obliterated by Vasudan bombers shortly afterwards, along with its foolhardy Admiral Bryant.
The Agamemnon attempted to lead a retreat away from the area, but its engine was damaged as it entered subspace and it emerged, disabled, about 8000 kilometers away from the battle. Several Terran cruisers followed the Agamemnon in an effort to defend it, but the Vasudans quickly deciphered their transmissions and followed them.
Gallantry and Retreat
Despite receiving heavy damage, the Leviathan-class GTC Foundation managed to fight off several waves of Vasudan fighters and bombers, with the help of the tattered remnants of the ill-fated GTD Eisenhower's fighter complement. This gallant defense gave the crippled GTD Agamemnon time to repair its fighterbay and subspace drive, and rally the scattered survivors of the 3rd and 4th Fleets.
The GTC's Foundation and Camisard then assisted a hodge-podge strike force from the Agamemnon in counterattacking the PVD Victory, in hopes that it would be delayed and unable to pursue them. The strike was a partial success, as it deprived the Victory of a significant portion of its fighter force, but did not inflict significant damage to the Victory, as at the time no one in the GTA knew of any critical weaknesses in the Typhon-class design.
The Agamemnon and the remnants of the 3rd and 4th Fleets were forced to fight their way past a sizable Vasudan blockade to escape to Terran space. The GTC Foundation was instrumental in holding off the PVD Victory's pursuit, going so far as to park itself directly in the Victory's path.
The Foundation ended up being physically towed out of the way, allowing the Victory to catch up to the damaged Agamemnon in Beta Aquilae. The near-dead Foundation dogged the Victory anyway.
The Khendu Incident
As it turned out, the Victory's CO, Admiral Khendu, disobeyed direct orders from both the Vasudan Military Directorate, and the Parliament itself, in order to pursue the Agamemnon into Beta Aquilae. He had then neglected to inform his crew of the matter and had ordered radio silence.
The GTC Foundation (as well as a pair of fighters it housed on external docking collars) ended up working alongside a set of Vasudan deep operatives from N'airaskh to deliver the true orders to the Victory's crew, and capture Admiral Khendu. As such the Foundation and its crew were temporarily branded as traitors to the GTA and were forced to fight for their lives alongside the elite N'airaskh cruiser and fighters.
Khendu was subdued by members of his bridge crew, upon their hearing of his deception, and the Victory immediately recalled all fighters and headed back to Vega. The Vasudan operatives escorted them home.
This happened just in time to save the GTD Agamemnon from destruction. The Foundation's traitor status was revoked, and the Agamemnon limped back to an Alshain orbital facility for extensive repairs, with the Foundation escorting it.
Aftermath
The Vega Engagement was one of the last major battles of the T-V War, setting up a three-year-long period of attrition and overall static boundaries, with Vega, Sirius, and Antares contested. Almost everything to one side or the other of those systems remained under the reasonably firm control of GTA or PVN forces (with the exception of raiding parties, usually on the part of the Vasudans).
I gave a nod to Ace's Cardinal Spear campaigns by mentioning the Agamemnon. The Foundation will be making several major appearances in my campaign, ETF. And of course Cordova Sr. is its captain. 8)
A djulran is a type of demon from Vasudan mythology. It had the head of a monstrous carnivore (complete with menacing, pointy teeth), and the overall body structure of a particularly muscular Vasudan male, but with an apsu-hek scale carapace and long bone claws. Djulrakh were known for their love of tearing their foes' limbs off one by one and eating them, so naming a cruiser after a djulran is clearly meant to inspire fear.
"Jian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jian)" is the Chinese word for a type of straight sword, while a "dao (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dao_%28sword%29)" is a type of curved sword. Given this, you can see why Terran Command thought it would make sense to name their operations this -- Operation Dao to do a curved, roundabout path to distract the Zods, and Operation Jian to go straight for the Shipyard when they least expected it.
One other thing: You might be wondering why the PVN decided to go easy on the GTA and let the Agamemnon and Foundation live. They were going to call for a week-long cease-fire so that the Terrans could have time to accept the terms of surrender. Naturally, the GTA refused.
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Extremely well done story! :yes: :yes: :yes: Tell me you have more of this, please!
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Of course. I've got a whole slew of similar Tech Entries. They're viewable via the link in my sig. :)
Tis unfortunate that guest reading on SG isn't allowed. But it's not like there's a registration fee or anything.
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I don't suppose you'd mind if I were to use that version of history in a campaign of my own? Only as a brief retelling by a rather history-obsessed SOC pilot during a mission, not as a campaign itself of course.
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By all means. I had hoped other people would latch onto my obsessive attempts to create some semblance of timeline :D
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Gotta love :v: they kept everything just detailed enough to spark everyones imagination, and just vauge enough to make everything entirely open ended
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Damn it, that description has made me want to play this Cardinal Spear everyone talks about, and wouldn't you know it, I can't find a goddamn download!
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Damn it, that description has made me want to play this Cardinal Spear everyone talks about, and wouldn't you know it, I can't find a goddamn download!
Same thing here, does anyone have that campaign?
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Soon. ;)
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Soon? Wasnt it already released? :confused: Cardinal Spear, I mean.
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Portage.
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Ah, so you're porting it to 3.03? Are you also doing any modifications on it as well?
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NB: is there any reason why the Vasudans couldn't have adopted a 'swarm' type tactic ala the Red Army (or perhaps Japanese Imperial Armies 'Banzai' style culture) in WW2 for their lighter classes, anyways? The Vasudans are described as, IIRC, a race of artists and engineers rather than warriors, but I don't think it makes it impossible for them to take the massed-forces approach; particularly as it appears Terran weapons were superior, so they'd need to accept losses anyways (especially given the ****ness of the Anubis, for example).
(at the same time, it could explain having something like the Typhon being 'king'; fighters and cruisers could be disposable, but the fighter and bomber base not)
In any case, it might be that the Aten is **** because **** is cheaper to make.
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Its good looking ****, though. Artists ++;
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@ Aldo, i think the HOL forces took the more "aggressive/disposable assets" approach as shown by the kamikaze fighters and cruisers in FS1...... :)
But i make ya right, The frail design and mass numbers appear to indicate a "pfft" approach to their war-style in general.
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There's canon evidence that the Vasudans would sometimes use swarm tactics (and it happened in a mission against the HOL during FS1).
And I never knew that the chinese had curved swords. The word "dao" usually means knife.
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Meh. It still works.
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You also forgot about the destruction of the GTD Goliath by kamikaze Anubis fighters.
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No we didnt :nervous:.........................................ok you got me at least.
Classic example of T vs V in tactics = look at the very first non training FS mission, Guard the Orff against X amount of Vas fighter wings, with 2!!! Apollos......... (man that fighter is sweet)
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Those Anubis fighters were what remained of a damaged Vasudan convoy looking for revenge (or something).
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Yeah but that just reinforces my position :)
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No it doesn't, you don't have a position, all you have is a squalid hole in the ground where your arguement used to be.
...:p
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Luckily for me my squalid hole is full of beer and porn.
Still the ZODS forgoing reason and withdrawing to a VAS bas and getting reinforced before smacking the orff show show they can swarm when logic dictates not swarming.........
[aceventurabutt] SO tHere yOU go SIR, PleasE kiss My ShINy metAl A$$ ![/aceventurabutt]
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They were low on supplies and had no base to run to. Go read through the FS1 Command Briefings.
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The destruction of the Goliath may not have been strickly a suicide run. I see that action as being the last strike of a steady campaign to weaken the Goliath and whatever fleet it led. Possibly a last ditch desperation move to finish off the first (confirmed) Orion destroyed in combat.
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They were low on supplies and had no base to run to. Go read through the FS1 Command Briefings.
Indeed, they were in a Terran-held system cut off from all supplies and reinforcements, and they had just been attacked by another force. They were running, happened across a Fenris with minimal escort, and thought they'd capitalise on the situation to regain their honor... or something. The presence of a much larger force of fighters than the Orff's measly patrol is due to gameplay, not any specific hint at the Zod's overall tactical nature.
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Very true about honor. I mean, really, even a suicide attack against a Fenris and its escort is certainly more honorable than running scared and eventually dying when the fighter breaks down.
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The whole honor thing is big with the Vasudans. I mean, the PVC Taurus and the two remaining strike squads could've just warped out of the system rather than attack the Plato (and get wiped out by the 'Unknowns'). Note that those Vasudan fighters that attacked the Orff, and all of the other fighterwings at the time except the Shivan ones, did not have inter-system subspace drives.
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Yeah we know, or shields or updated sensors etc. Or even pine-fresh air conditioning units. Or Cup holders............................... :shaking:
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No need for cup holders if we don't have cups!!! :shaking:
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What are GTVA pilots meant to put the bosch beer in while they smoke their shivna space crack.
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They had already developed cups and cup holders along with Flak, Beam Cannons, etc. by the time of FS2. :nod:
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Great war fighters were made paper mache' and string.........
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And the Orion was made of ice.
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Spam != good.
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"!=" Humour != not getting old in the least.
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It wasnt humour, it was a warning to cut the spam.
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Point taken.
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:}