Hard Light Productions Forums
General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: Desert63 on January 04, 2013, 04:44:30 pm
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Hey all,
Great community here and I attempted to read all the joystick threads, but most were outdated by half a decade. I have been watching this forum off and on for years and have never played Freespace, but keep getting drawn back with the enthusiasm here. Like others I have played so many of the other space combat/sims and miss them.
So my question. What is the best joystick for using Freespace2 (all updates of course) on WIN7. By best I dont mean most buttons, coolest, or best hardware. By best I mean the joystick most likely to work with no problems. Ideally I want a throttle combo (dare I even think rudder pedals?), but what one is likely to work with the least messing around. And if that means less buttons, but the joystick works flawlessly with just a couple of buttons, I will take it.
I used to live for hacks, and file edits, and doing whatever it took to make a mod work. Now I hack my lawnmower to get it through another summer :D , so when I sit down to game, I prefer it to work with minimal efforts.
Thanks ahead.
Scott
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Are you specifically averse to flying with mouse/keyboard? I ask this not because I want to put down joysticks, but just so you know that it's completely possible to play and enjoy the game (even at the highest skill level) without a stick.
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I still swear by my Saitek X52. Makes the game much more immersive (combined with TrackIR) and has all the buttons I need.
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I too have an X52, though I wish I had the Pro for the stronger center-spring.
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I tried keyboard and mouse on Freelancer? and it was ok, just that the joystick always feels more like "flight". Are you pleased with the feeling of control you have?
And yes, heard lots of good on those Saiteks... so no major setups problems and your control feels right?
Thanks!
scott
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Oh, you use trackir? I saw a youtube video with fso and trackir, so it works well... looked pretty great.
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I use a dualshock 3 controller for my freespace gaming needs, for the most part, it works quite well, so if you also have a gaming console, give your controllers a try and see if it works for you
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I tried keyboard and mouse on Freelancer? and it was ok, just that the joystick always feels more like "flight".
Freelancer gameplay is entirely different than FS gameplay. Really. Just try it.
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Moreover, do you really think 23rd century ships are going to be flown by joystick?
REALLY? :x
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Do you really think they will be flown by a keyboard and mouse? I'm pretty sure the current technology does not reflect what we'll have in the 23rd century.
As to Joysticks, I've had good luck with the Logitech Extreme 3D PRO. It has lots of buttons and a nice light action. I don't remember how long I've had it but its on the third computer now and I've only had four computers since I got FreeSpace 1 in 1998.
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Actually "keyboard", maybe (in so far as something along the lines of a touch screen).
Conventional mouse almost definitely not, but I wouldn't be surprised if there were something like trackballs used.
Joystick never.
This being under the assumption that some sort of mind control isn't 'the way', or it being done completely by AI with us just 'guiding' them.
Motion control / joystick though just seems so unlikely because it's unwieldy.
In any case I was just musing at 'realism' being the reason for a joystick being the choice to make.
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Reminds me of those Voyager episodes where Tom Paris modified the Delta Flyer to use control sticks instead of the usual derpy Star Trek touchscreens. :p
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Reminds me of those Voyager episodes where Tom Paris modified the Delta Flyer to use control sticks instead of the usual derpy Star Trek touchscreens. :p
Why do joysticks make you think about such terrible **** :blah:
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I find the Saitek X52 pro works great as a plug-and-play stick, and setting it up with the profiler software isn't a whole lot more time-consuming than configuring the controls in FS2.
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Actually "keyboard", maybe (in so far as something along the lines of a touch screen).
Conventional mouse almost definitely not, but I wouldn't be surprised if there were something like trackballs used.
Joystick never.
This being under the assumption that some sort of mind control isn't 'the way', or it being done completely by AI with us just 'guiding' them.
Motion control / joystick though just seems so unlikely because it's unwieldy.
In any case I was just musing at 'realism' being the reason for a joystick being the choice to make.
Joysticks are associated with flight vehicles of today and yesterday. The OP just said he just wants the feeling of flight and he didn't mention anything about it being realistic. This is a game about unrealistic space fighters that were unrealistically derived from the modern fighters of today which do use joysticks. I don't think it's much of a stretch to assume that.
And besides, what other device is out there that allows a user to have sustained analog control over their flight surfaces? I'm just curious because a stick that ties displacement to f(0.0f - 1.0f) is the simplest device I can think of in my mind. I'm sure there are human interface experts out there that can think of something better but there seems to still be a good reason why we still use joysticks on cranes, construction vehicles, airplanes, and even space vehicles.
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I think I'll move around the "realism" question and instead go with "is playing FS2 with a joystick fun?" I vote "yes".
But as Battuta said, many people are happy playing FS2 either with a keyboard or with keyboard+mouse, so definitely don't feel like you have to get a joystick to play. You might want to try playing without a stick first and see what you think. I still like keyboard-only quite a bit, although I personally never liked the mouse.
Great community here and I attempted to read all the joystick threads, but most were outdated by half a decade.
Actually, questions about joysticks (http://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Ahard-light.net+joystick) have come up pretty frequently in the recent past, even ignoring the tech support-related questions. Might be worth another look.
As for specific joysticks, definitely not a complete list:
- The Logitech Extreme 3D Pro is fairly inexpensive and a lot of people around here seem to like it.
- The Saitek X52 and X52 Pro have a lot more features, including a throttle, but they cost quite a bit more.
- I use CH (Flightstick Pro to be exact, sometimes also Pro Throttle), which are plain-looking but have an excellent reputation for reliability, performance, and support. But they're expensive. The Combatstick and Fighterstick have a lot more buttons (especially the Fighterstick) but are bigger. The Flightstick Pro fits my hand better.
Hope that helps.
Reminds me of those Voyager episodes where Tom Paris modified the Delta Flyer to use control sticks instead of the usual derpy Star Trek touchscreens. :p
Why do joysticks make you think about such terrible **** :blah:
I'm embarrassed to have seen as many Voyager episodes as I have, although luckily it's only in the single digits.
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Guess I'm the only one who actually enjoyed Voyager, then. :nervous:
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The only motivation behind my anti-joystick agenda is in dispelling the myth that you need a joystick to enjoy space sims, which I think is an obstacle to the community's growth. On the other hand, the truth that playing space sims with a joystick can be a really fun option is great and should be shouted from the rooftops.
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Great, great comments, thanks so much.
I am a PC gaming snob, so no, no controllers for me :).
I liked Voyager when some crazy thing was happening with the Borg.
Someone mentioned "joystick - FS2 equals fun". I think that will be my camp, but since I am currently Joystickless, I will give it a try with keyboard and mouse first (cant imagine it, but I will try).
The CH has always been a favorite of mine, but the Saitek just has a look and feel I like, at least when I try them in the store.
Actually I have a massive old Microsoft Forcefeedback2 laying around, I might try.
Cant wait to play.
Thanks all
Scott
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The only motivation behind my anti-joystick agenda is in dispelling the myth that you need a joystick to enjoy space sims, which I think is an obstacle to the community's growth. On the other hand, the truth that playing space sims with a joystick can be a really fun option is great and should be shouted from the rooftops.
Everyone and their mother has an Xbox 360 controller. Maybe I just need to implement Xinput support so we can get out of the box 360 controller support such that newbies can jump right in.
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If keyboard mouse doesn't suit you (pro tip; turn the sensitivity up, lots), try keyboard only.
There are plenty of us that fly in that fashion too ;x
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On the other hand, the truth that playing space sims with a joystick can be a really fun option is great and should be shouted from the rooftops.
Hear hear. I was playing FS last night, for the first time in a long time, with a joystick, throttle, pedals, and freetrack rig. It was sublime.
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It'd recommend CH Products series of controllers, especially the Fighterstick. If you've got money to spare you can also get Pro Throttle and Pro Pedals. Playing FS (as well as actual flight sims) with that setup is awesome.
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I play Spacesims using a Saitek ST290 Pro. I have this Joystick for a few years now and I'm still very happy with it. :)
http://gadgets.softpedia.com/gadgets/TechToys-Including-Gaming-Gadgets/Saitek-ST290-Pro-Joystick-9545.html
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that looks like an evolution of the cyborg, which i can vouch for. i currently use an X-45, but i did love my old cyborg 3d gold. had JUST enough buttons to get all the most common controls on there, twist axis (prefer to rudder rocker for FS), throttle lever (the one on this one doesn't look as convenient, being on the back though) and i really liked the looser tension. the x-45 gives me arm fatigue after a bit and i feel less accurate with it. the one problem i had with the cyborg was i needed the deadzone set at 3, because it was a little wiggly at the center due to the lower tension. i'm at 2 with the x-45.
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On the other hand, the truth that playing space sims with a joystick can be a really fun option is great and should be shouted from the rooftops.
Hear hear. I was playing FS last night, for the first time in a long time, with a joystick, throttle, pedals, and freetrack rig. It was sublime.
Redsniper, post your gear please ! This is exactly what I am hoping to do. I dont want to reinvent the wheel, what is your gear and I will take any setup advice you have. Although I might go with TrackIr instead as I am experiencing a rare period of having money :), I want to start somewhere, and your setup is it.
And on some other posts, what is realism? :) Not sure that is really in gaming, and not sure I would like it if I saw it :). Somebody above clarified it well, I want immersion. Touching and using "flighty" things, like joystick, throttle, etc, helps draw me in.
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>COUGH (http://www.saitekusa.com/uk/prod/x65f.html)<
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Redsniper, post your gear please ! This is exactly what I am hoping to do. I dont want to reinvent the wheel, what is your gear and I will take any setup advice you have. Although I might go with TrackIr instead as I am experiencing a rare period of having money :), I want to start somewhere, and your setup is it.
It's all CH Products stuff, Fighterstick, Pro Throttle, and Pro Pedals. Frankly, it's kind of expensive, but I wanted to splurge since getting a real job and paying off debts and such. Before this I had a Saitek X52 for several years, which I would also recommend as a good FS stick and throttle, cheaper too. The CH stuff isn't much to look at, but it all feels very solid and precise. A slight word of warning though: CH sticks are big for people with big hands. I ended up cutting a hand rest out of foam so I could reach the thumb buttons.
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One caution: a cheap joystick may turn out to be more frustration than it's worth. I briefly had one that I got rid of because the dead zone made fine control impossible.
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I play Spacesims using a Saitek ST290 Pro. I have this Joystick for a few years now and I'm still very happy with it. :)
http://gadgets.softpedia.com/gadgets/TechToys-Including-Gaming-Gadgets/Saitek-ST290-Pro-Joystick-9545.html
This is the one I switched to after my old (and kind of crummy and discontinued stick I can't remember the model of) snapped. Liking it so far, and the price was reasonable. :)
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Thanks, got it on the CH products. I have looked at them before. Rudder pedals, how cool is that, but pricey I know.
Still torn, as I was also looking at a steering wheel, stick and TrackIR combo for dirt2.
Dont worry, I am not comparing playing Dirt to playing Freespace2 :). Its just that friends would be more likely to sit down and play Dirt immediately on a steering wheel setup, where "flying" with pedals and joystick in a space sim/shooter is not something they would be interested in. I cant afford both sets of hardware. But I cant get away from the great youtube videos on Freespaceopen, so that looks to be the way I am going.
Thanks all
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I'll say it yet again
Freespace rocks with a forcefeedback joystick
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Actually I have a massive old Microsoft Forcefeedback2 laying around, I might try.
That is what I am using. Perfect plug-and-play on my Windows 7 Home 64 bit PC. I have not downloaded any old Sidewinder drivers or profiler software, and have not had any problems using the in-game settings to map out the functions I want.
I would REALLY like to get my old original MS Sidewinder Force Feedback Pro to work, since it has a shift button to effectively double the number of buttons, but it has a gameport connection rather than USB. My first ever computer upgrade was a Creative SoundBlaster audio card because the gameport on my VIA chipset motherboard would not recognize my new $100 toy. :banghead:
Sorry, I ramble sometimes.
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If I'm on the go on my craptop, keyboard only is where it's at for me (growing up with MechWarrior 2 and Heavy Gear II where the main movement controls were on the numpad, I lived with it and like it now).
Actually I have a massive old Microsoft Forcefeedback2 laying around, I might try.
That is what I am using. Perfect plug-and-play on my Windows 7 Home 64 bit PC. I have not downloaded any old Sidewinder drivers or profiler software, and have not had any problems using the in-game settings to map out the functions I want.
I would REALLY like to get my old original MS Sidewinder Force Feedback Pro to work, since it has a shift button to effectively double the number of buttons, but it has a gameport connection rather than USB. My first ever computer upgrade was a Creative SoundBlaster audio card because the gameport on my VIA chipset motherboard would not recognize my new $100 toy. :banghead:
You guys have me beat. When I'm at home, I use a MS Sidewinder Precision Pro (it does have a sound card plug, but thankfully has a USB adapter and auto-adapts to Win7, no old disc needed). Works like a charm playing any FS or any derivative.
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I thought I had a USB adapter, but now I can't find one anywhere.
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The Prec Pro is probably the best joystick in the history of mankind.
Just a shame they don't make'em like that anymore :<
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I would REALLY like to get my old original MS Sidewinder Force Feedback Pro to work, since it has a shift button to effectively double the number of buttons, but it has a gameport connection rather than USB.
If you like shift buttons, try CH Products. Both Pro Throttle and Fighterstick can have up to three modes, tripling the number of available buttons. If that's not enough for some reason, you can delve into Control Manage Scripts and have up to four modes. Though TBH, I've yet to see a game in which I would need more than one mode (and aside from hardcore flight sims and FS, few games can even exhaust the buttons available without modes).
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i don't know about the newer products, but saitek's x45 has a 3-mode toggle switch AND an optional shift button for a total of SIX modes.
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On CH products, every button is a little keyboard, so you actually have 3,264 keys.
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What's with this joystick vs keyboard/mouse talk? Why not use all three at once? :D
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because normal people only have two hands?
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ch user. before i used ch i used an x52 and one of its predecessors at a rate of one hotas every 1.5 years. then i bought a ch stick/throttle/pedals. ive yet to determine how long they will last (by the way i bought them 5 or 6 years ago). while the saitek sticks had some nice features and really sexy grips, they completely sucked at being durable (and im no stick banger either, i give the stick the finesse and grace it deserves and that which only comes from years of joysticking experience), and dont get me started about that ****ty single spring mechanism. ch on the other hand doesnt try to do anything fancy, its hat switches, buttons and axes and the stick software is the best ive seen.
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I'm with you on that one. I've never had any problem with my CH HOTAS and I bought it used. The Control Manager does what usually requires 3rd party software, and better, so I've yet to see a game that wouldn't play nice with the set. You can even bind buttons (and axes) to keyboard keys if all else fails.
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Has anyone used one of these?
http://www.thrustmaster.com/products/t16000m
http://www.thrustmaster.com/press/heart-hall-effect-accurate-technology-unique-3d-technological-innovation-built-new-thrustmaste
They wax lyrical about how wonderful the magnetic sensors are but that's what every marketing department would say, so I was wondering if anyone had 1st hand experience? Would it be as good as the light sensors in the MS Precision Pro?
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On the other hand, the truth that playing space sims with a joystick can be a really fun option is great and should be shouted from the rooftops.
Hear hear. I was playing FS last night, for the first time in a long time, with a joystick, throttle, pedals, and freetrack rig. It was sublime.
Noob question time. :ick: How do you set that up, anyway? I thought FS2 was only compatible with a joystick+throttle? Also, what's a freetrack rig and how does it make the game better?
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Combine your controllers into a single Windows device. If you have a CH set, they come with an utility for that, for the rest you need 3rd party software. Freetrack is a head tracking utility, basically allows you to control your viewpoint by slight head movements.
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if you are really anal you drill several holes in your desk and install an industrial panel mount stick and a bunch of arcade buttons. im going to do that one of these days when my ch breaks down (in about three decades).
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I predict you'll go on a killing spree and get shot to pieces by SWAT long before that happens. :lol:
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Are you specifically averse to flying with mouse/keyboard? I ask this not because I want to put down joysticks, but just so you know that it's completely possible to play and enjoy the game (even at the highest skill level) without a stick.
:nervous:
He's right haha. I never used a joystick. And I've played FS since I was five years old.
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Has anyone used one of these?
http://www.thrustmaster.com/products/t16000m
Would it be as good as the light sensors in the MS Precision Pro?
I have one of those, it is pretty precise and has no dead zone.
For smaller hands you might need to modify it a bit and it has an annoying light that goes on as soon as the stick is moved (you have to cut the cables).
I have no clue how it compares to other modern joysticks.
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Thanks ;) Given that they aren't expensive, I'll probably give it a go when my current Logitech bites the dust.