Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => Gaming Discussion => Topic started by: Flipside on January 14, 2009, 10:59:49 am
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Well, because my DVD drive is getting old, every single game I own that uses Securom has decided it is not going to accept the original discs are original discs. That adds up to, roughly, 150 gbp of software that is now useless until I pay for a new DVD Drive.
This really irks me, since when did the impetus move to the customer for them to have to replace hardware every 5 years not because it doesn't work, not because it is not capable of supporting the access demands of the software, but because the ****ing DRM doesn't like it for some reason?
Caesar IV, Warhammer Mark of Chaos and a host of other games are, at the moment, nothing more than glorified coasters :hopping:
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you can always get nocd files or whatnot, its legal if you own the game.
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Actually, under the UK Computer Misuse act of 1990, it isn't, but I'm downloading them anyway ;)
Edit: Though, it should be noted that, under the same Act, DRM is, strictly speaking, illegal as well.
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well there you go, sue em :D
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you can always get nocd files or whatnot, its legal if you own the game.
It's illegal in The United States to bypass copyright protection via the DMCA.
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IIRC correctly, Flipside is from the UK.
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YRC, but I don't know where Ashrak is from.
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you can always get nocd files or whatnot, its legal if you own the game.
It's illegal in The United States to bypass copyright protection via the DMCA.
I Don't recognize the DMCA as a legal authority.
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Didn't the Captain of the Bellasarius say pretty much the same thing? ;)
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I DONT RECOGNIZE ANYTHING AS A LEGAL AUTHORITY! BWAHAHAHAHAHAH-shot-dies-
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I DONT RECOGNIZE ANYTHING AS A LEGAL AUTHORITY! BWAHAHAHAHAHAH-shot-dies-
Dilmah G is the only authority in THIS system
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I DONT RECOGNIZE ANYTHING AS A LEGAL AUTHORITY! BWAHAHAHAHAHAH-shot-dies-
Dilmah G is the only authority in THIS system
In that case, the citizens of this system would be wise to question the wisdom of their leader. Helm, engage subspace drive. :warp:
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I DONT RECOGNIZE ANYTHING AS A LEGAL AUTHORITY! BWAHAHAHAHAHAH-shot-dies-
Dilmah G is the only authority in THIS system
In that case, the citizens of this system would be wise to question the wisdom of their leader. Helm, engage subspace drive. :warp:
I am soo sigg'ing that
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I love Canada. Legal here to crack your own software. Legal here to download music, too.
But yes, I agree, SecuROM blows. It's the main reason I won't buy any games by EA anymore (the other reason being EA doesn't make any games worth buying).
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I bought EA games before. Then I got SPORE.
...never again...
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Ohh come on!
Doesn't anyone play Sims anymore?
TS3 doesn't look that bad
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Ohh come on!
Doesn't anyone play Sims anymore?
TS3 doesn't look that bad
Frankly, I don't care about their DRM bull**** if it's not my computer. My sister's going to get it. I need to upgrade her computer :doubt: for it. She's got an Athlon 64 2._GHz and a cheap PCCHIPS board with nForce 430a or something--GeForce 6200SE iirc. She'll probably get the cheapest Athlon X2 I can find and my HD3850-256. She has some Antec 400W power supply, so I don't think that'll be a problem. I'll probably resist the urge to sell my new OCZ SXS 500W until I get her computer sorted out.
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And I thought Starforce was bad.
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Huh... I'm not entirely sure, but I think the last game I bought that had anything to do with EA was Wing Commander Prophecy. How time flies... And I haven't even tried to avoid 'em, either. *Thinking hard* But, as many games as I have, I just HAVE to have some other EA-title in there... Oh well, it's 1600 miles away in any case.
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And I thought Starforce was bad.
Well, I'd take SecuROM over Starforce.
Just to give people an idea though:
I got FarCry 2, and decided to crack it because I didn't want all the DRM **** on my compy. The FC2 installed exec was 16 megs. The cracked exe with the DRM removed was less than 1.
Another thing too; I mentioned this in the Fallout 3 thread. A problem with that game is frequent CTD's. If you crack it, you experience in the ballpark of sixty percent less crashes, due to no longer running SucuROM. 60% effing percent. That's just ridiculous. When the DRM (and seriously, why can't we just call it "copy protection"? Oh yea, that's illegal) interferes with your lawful use of a purchased good to that extent, I'm sure that's breaking some laws in the CCC and I imagine in some other countries as well. It's complete BS. And the DRM on Fallout was a smidgen compared to what EA and Ubisoft usually use.
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You aren't talking about Fallout 3 with the 60% figure, right?
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You aren't talking about Fallout 3 with the 60% figure, right?
Yea, Fallout 3. Some users experienced ~60% less crashes after cracking it.
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It's a standard thing to get faster loading times and better framerates in cracked exes. Cracks that fix stability problems are less common, but there have certainly been cases of that. The funniest instance was probably Ubisoft's "patch" for one of the POP games to solve crashing issues, which turned out to be an existing crack for the game. :D
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It's a standard thing to get faster loading times and better framerates in cracked exes. Cracks that fix stability problems are less common, but there have certainly been cases of that. The funniest instance was probably Ubisoft's "patch" for one of the POP games to solve crashing issues, which turned out to be an existing crack for the game. :D
In the fallout 3 case, the crack fixed stability issues that were introduced by SecuROM drivers. The cracked .exe didn't load the secuROM drivers that caused system instability.
As for UbiSoft, IIRC the game was Rainbow Six Vegas 3, and the issue was that the digital download version failed the CD check and thus could not be played. The patch was the Reloaded "No-CD" crack. Ubisoft didn't even bother removing the Reloaded tag from the Exec. What a bunch of nobs.
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I'm trying to figure out if you mis-spelt noobs or knobs ;)
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He couldn't decide which word to use, so he spelt both.
I mean...I've done that in speaking, why not typing? :p
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I'm trying to figure out if you mis-spelt noobs or knobs ;)
Haha, pick whichever you like better :P
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But the actual Fallout 3 exe wasn't copy protected. It was only the launcher.
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But the actual Fallout 3 exe wasn't copy protected. It was only the launcher.
Not true :)
Bethesda claimed they didn't put in any copy protection. But they did. Now, whether or not it was directly integrated into the exec or the exec launched the SecuROM drivers and stuff separately, I don't know. I had a very good post on this some IT guys did, they analyzed the copy protection quite in depth. I'll see if I can find it again.
EDIT: Found it.
From http://www.gamingnewslink.com/2008/11/07/fallout-3-patch-10015-download-and-patch-changes/
This post mentions the SecuROM as well as a bunch of other issues with Fallout 3.
I get the same error. It appears that even their Patches need some sort of testing before release too. I’ve tried the patch on the US version of the DVD as well as the updated exe from SecuROM. Get the same error on both. The patch does appear to modify some files in the Windows System folder through the Command BOX; however, it doesn’t do anything to the Game exe or anything in the directory.
I have found the primary issues causing the CTD and other crashes. I’ve sent 3 e-mails to Bethesda and no responses. My Computer Science Engineering department took a shot it. I purchased 320 copies and gave them the weekend to figure it out. Here are some of the results;
1.) Fallout 3 Installer installs an older version on C++ Visual 2005 that appears to affect the way the vidcard driver communicates with the game.
2.) Fallout 3 Installer installs a Beta release of DOTNETFX3.0 (.NET Framework 3.0). For users of .NET Framework 3.0 SP1 or even SP2 (Service Pack of the Framework not the OS), upon restarting their system (when changes take place), their game will be quite unstable.
Users of .NET 3.5 or Vista should have even more random crashes.
3.) Fallout 3 Installer installs a non Plug’n Play DRM device manager (not driver but a manager) that doesn’t like any 3rd party codecs (ie K-Lite, WinAMP, etc) and will usually see a CTD when a Hardware codec comes online. This usually occurs when interactive audio (client controlled speech) initializes (ie baby walking to daddy).
4. Fallout 3 Installer installs SecuROM Root kit as well as 8 hidden non Plug’n play virtual drivers. Owners with more than one Optical drive or a sata drive may encounter random drive access issues. Also, Imaging software or any software that may use its own ASPI drive (ie NERO, Roxio, Daemon, ISO, etc.) will have one of the 8 virtual drivers causing the system to do a random CTD. Reason why clients using a cracked EXE don’t experience the same volume of CTD as those who bought the game. However, the SecuROM root kits are still on the system and active. Once the SecuROM is also purged from the system, 60% of the crashes disappear. Unfortunately, they must remain on the system in order to play the game as they are part of the EULA.
5.) Fallout 3 also has its own built in MP3 codec coupled to its DRM to protect MP3’s on the DVD (in game). Unfortunately, the codec was never tested fully with hardware decoders like those of an X-FI. This can be varied by the lack of a hardware audio switch in the game options.
6.) Fallout 3 has 14 memory leaks that we found. Most are small, but there are a few that are quite large. Some areas of the map, the memory counter just spins at over 100 MB/sec. Most memory leaks are around 5 to 10 MB/sec.
7.) Fallout 3 video graphics buffer needs to be adjustable in the options and an automatic cache purger installed for cards over 512 MBs as well as linked buffers from SLI and crossfire cards. I’ve seen areas where names on the screen start to disappear and all you see are “Input Text Here” instead of V.A.T.S. or range or etc. The cache doesn’t get dumped on some maps. Most games dump their cache when a map reload occurs. This can be noticed when fast reloads occurs from map changes. Most users will just see their graphics card run out of memory (CTD and stuttering).
8.) Most games were fault free with a basic XP Pro SP2 reload, and only Critical updates and latest stock drivers. Installed the game and played it error free for nearly 4 days. Upon a system restart, lots of errors showed up. This means that Fallout 3 significantly changes the operating system. Far beyond reasonable accounts as all you can do with the system in not to play MP3’s, watch movies, make a CD or DVD, or play other games.
Hopefully, Bethesda will address the issues more than 100,000 people are having.
Anyway, sorry if this went off topic a bit, but I though the DRM content in there was relivant. So I was also incorrect about the the 60% less crashes after cracking -it's 60% less after removing the Fallout 3 DRM drivers.
One thing I find interesting in this article is the comment about the EULA and how the SecuROM drivers have to remain installed to play it in accordance with the EULA. A lot of people don't realise an EULA is not a legally binding document and actually has little to no legal power. Any half-competant lawyer could rip one apart before morning tea. I don't know about other countries, but here the simple clause of "This document is subject to change without notice" is enough to destroy any credibility of it being a legal contract. So saying "You must accept the EULA to use this product" is the equivalent of saying "You must agree to this arbitrary piece of poorly written literature."
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So saying "You must accept the EULA to use this product" is the equivalent of saying "You must agree to this arbitrary piece of poorly written literature."
wow, flashback to grade 11 english class... old b*tch of a teacher
Anyway...
I often get that SecuROM error on my old disk drive, playing EE2, then deciced to forgo most disk-based games in an apithy upon my personal 'discovery' of HL2 andthis place (http://www.hard-light.net) ;)
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But the actual Fallout 3 exe wasn't copy protected. It was only the launcher.
Not true :)
Bethesda claimed they didn't put in any copy protection. But they did. Now, whether or not it was directly integrated into the exec or the exec launched the SecuROM drivers and stuff separately, I don't know. I had a very good post on this some IT guys did, they analyzed the copy protection quite in depth. I'll see if I can find it again.
EDIT: Found it.
From http://www.gamingnewslink.com/2008/11/07/fallout-3-patch-10015-download-and-patch-changes/
This post mentions the SecuROM as well as a bunch of other issues with Fallout 3.
I get the same error. It appears that even their Patches need some sort of testing before release too. I’ve tried the patch on the US version of the DVD as well as the updated exe from SecuROM. Get the same error on both. The patch does appear to modify some files in the Windows System folder through the Command BOX; however, it doesn’t do anything to the Game exe or anything in the directory.
I have found the primary issues causing the CTD and other crashes. I’ve sent 3 e-mails to Bethesda and no responses. My Computer Science Engineering department took a shot it. I purchased 320 copies and gave them the weekend to figure it out. Here are some of the results;
1.) Fallout 3 Installer installs an older version on C++ Visual 2005 that appears to affect the way the vidcard driver communicates with the game.
2.) Fallout 3 Installer installs a Beta release of DOTNETFX3.0 (.NET Framework 3.0). For users of .NET Framework 3.0 SP1 or even SP2 (Service Pack of the Framework not the OS), upon restarting their system (when changes take place), their game will be quite unstable.
Users of .NET 3.5 or Vista should have even more random crashes.
3.) Fallout 3 Installer installs a non Plug’n Play DRM device manager (not driver but a manager) that doesn’t like any 3rd party codecs (ie K-Lite, WinAMP, etc) and will usually see a CTD when a Hardware codec comes online. This usually occurs when interactive audio (client controlled speech) initializes (ie baby walking to daddy).
4. Fallout 3 Installer installs SecuROM Root kit as well as 8 hidden non Plug’n play virtual drivers. Owners with more than one Optical drive or a sata drive may encounter random drive access issues. Also, Imaging software or any software that may use its own ASPI drive (ie NERO, Roxio, Daemon, ISO, etc.) will have one of the 8 virtual drivers causing the system to do a random CTD. Reason why clients using a cracked EXE don’t experience the same volume of CTD as those who bought the game. However, the SecuROM root kits are still on the system and active. Once the SecuROM is also purged from the system, 60% of the crashes disappear. Unfortunately, they must remain on the system in order to play the game as they are part of the EULA.
5.) Fallout 3 also has its own built in MP3 codec coupled to its DRM to protect MP3’s on the DVD (in game). Unfortunately, the codec was never tested fully with hardware decoders like those of an X-FI. This can be varied by the lack of a hardware audio switch in the game options.
6.) Fallout 3 has 14 memory leaks that we found. Most are small, but there are a few that are quite large. Some areas of the map, the memory counter just spins at over 100 MB/sec. Most memory leaks are around 5 to 10 MB/sec.
7.) Fallout 3 video graphics buffer needs to be adjustable in the options and an automatic cache purger installed for cards over 512 MBs as well as linked buffers from SLI and crossfire cards. I’ve seen areas where names on the screen start to disappear and all you see are “Input Text Here” instead of V.A.T.S. or range or etc. The cache doesn’t get dumped on some maps. Most games dump their cache when a map reload occurs. This can be noticed when fast reloads occurs from map changes. Most users will just see their graphics card run out of memory (CTD and stuttering).
8.) Most games were fault free with a basic XP Pro SP2 reload, and only Critical updates and latest stock drivers. Installed the game and played it error free for nearly 4 days. Upon a system restart, lots of errors showed up. This means that Fallout 3 significantly changes the operating system. Far beyond reasonable accounts as all you can do with the system in not to play MP3’s, watch movies, make a CD or DVD, or play other games.
Hopefully, Bethesda will address the issues more than 100,000 people are having.
Anyway, sorry if this went off topic a bit, but I though the DRM content in there was relivant. So I was also incorrect about the the 60% less crashes after cracking -it's 60% less after removing the Fallout 3 DRM drivers.
One thing I find interesting in this article is the comment about the EULA and how the SecuROM drivers have to remain installed to play it in accordance with the EULA. A lot of people don't realise an EULA is not a legally binding document and actually has little to no legal power. Any half-competant lawyer could rip one apart before morning tea. I don't know about other countries, but here the simple clause of "This document is subject to change without notice" is enough to destroy any credibility of it being a legal contract. So saying "You must accept the EULA to use this product" is the equivalent of saying "You must agree to this arbitrary piece of poorly written literature."
I'm surprised no one ripped them a new one yet.
That's even more insane and invasive than what Starforce did. This should be published on all available forums, so users are made aware of just how "Trusted" their computers became with "Trusted Computing" (AKA DRM).
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I just read that DRM stuff, that the fact that companies are still installing rootkits is just absurd.
*ahem*
F-CK DRM
</end rant>
Seriously, what more can be said about this? DRM is a failure. It has been a failure, will always be a failure, and does horrific things to your system. I personally believe that the most a game should ever do is move a couple of dlls into your system directory and modify some registry entries, not:
1. install a rootkit
2. install an entire .net framework
3. install their own freaking audio driver?
4. install an older version of VC++ redist package instead of either
- making their game compatible with future versions
- static linking the stupid thing
5. install a DRM Device manager
6. 8 hidden virtual drivers?!
As well as having severe memory leak issues despite using a managed language (a truly astonishing feat), never properly dumping their cache, never testing their patches, never testing their drivers, causing the system to become unstable, and completely failing to deliver a product that could be called "professional." It's just got pretty looking art. A 16 year old could program a more stable game in his f-cking garage.
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Securom is many things, but rootkit it is NOT. It operates at Ring 3, which is most definitely not the Root (Ring 0), and is therefore not a rookit.
For someone claiming to have done as much research as KCPTECH does in that post, this is one hell of an oversight.
But really, we all know it's not - KCPTECH is just being the anti-DRM zealot of the day.
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Securom is many things, but rootkit it is NOT. It operates at Ring 3, which is most definitely not the Root (Ring 0), and is therefore not a rookit.
For someone claiming to have done as much research as KCPTECH does in that post, this is one hell of an oversight.
But really, we all know it's not - KCPTECH is just being the anti-DRM zealot of the day.
Ok, remove "rootkit" from the list.
Its still f-cking stupid. The programming errors alone would make any half-decent programmer puke his lungs out.
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Ok, remove "rootkit" from the list.
Its still f-cking stupid. The programming errors alone would make any half-decent programmer puke his lungs out.
Yea, I'm not a fan of installed virtual drivers. What amazes me even more is that these companies actually think they're doing something to prevent copying. Though in the case of the Codecs they probably had to impliment those to get permission from the IP owners to use the songs. But I honestly do not get how oblivious these people are to think that this stuff does anything but piss customers off.
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And what would you have them do instead, given the piracy rate?
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Grin and bear it.
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And I assume you'll be just as happy to Grin and Bear it when your turn comes around, and you discover PC gaming is primarily delayed console ports and casual games because there's no money in PC gaming?
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A few points I'd like to toss in on this subject:
First if I have to choose between something like Securom and not buying the game at all I will just not buy it.
Second I will never own a console so they have lost my money there already.
Third if the companies made a half way decent product and charged an affordable price they would cut down on piracy. I'd be more apt to by 3 $25 games as to buy 1 at $60.
Fourth and probably the biggest one is I gave up buying new games about 2 years ago. Why? They all suck. I purchased about a dozen games in a 2 month period and was board in a week. I think it took me about 3 days to beat the hardest one. So at even 40 bucks a pop that's still over $13 a day for entertainment. I get more entertainment out of a case of beer which is about the same price.
So in summary if they want my business they will make a PC game, drop the BS that takes over my PC, make a decent product, and charge a fair price. Until then I will drink my beer and play FS2.
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I bought Fallout 3, cause it's one of the few titles, which do not use DRM and limited online activations.
BAM! I wasn't able to install it because I had "drive emulation tools" on my PC.... or at least that's what SecuRom claimed.
Except for an old Nero version, there is no virtual drive, or CD copy software on my PC.
Still, I couldn't install it until I did some research on the support site. So... I had to copy the install folder on my HDD and install it from there.
Fine, took me longer, but it worked.
Then I couldn't start the damn game. SecuRom wouldn't let me.
So I installed a Fallout 3 patch and tried it again. Nothing...
Then I found out I had to install the patch for SecuRom and then install the Fallout 3 patch.... ok... duh... but it still wouldn't start.
Finally I found out I could neither start is from DVD, nor by the launcher. The only way for me to play it, was to start the exe file directly.
When I got that whole crap done, it was already late... too late to actually play the game, cause to buy games, I need money and therefore, I have to go to work...
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And I assume you'll be just as happy to Grin and Bear it when your turn comes around, and you discover PC gaming is primarily delayed console ports and casual games because there's no money in PC gaming?
I'm going to make a game, and the only DRM its going to have is a good old-fashioned CD-key. It will be nearly impossible to pirate. How? One CD-key online at a time. Voila, piracy problem solved, customer is happy, no audio codecs, virtual drivers, or other totally useless bull**** needed.
By all means, argue that DRM is needed because of the piracy rates - that doesn't matter. What I'm argueing is that regardless of whether or not you need DRM, Fallout 3 does a really bad job at it, and they need to fire their entire programming department. Unless you can successfully implement DRM, you are better off just not including it in your product, because if you do include it in your product you will be boycotted and cracked and you'll end up losing more money then if you had just settled for something more simplistic (like a CD-key) and let people pirate it.
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First if I have to choose between something like Securom and not buying the game at all I will just not buy it.
Normally I'd agree, but the problem is, if it's an impulse-buy, most companies are very reluctant to advertise the fact that Securom is included with the game, which should be a warning in and of itself.
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Normally I'd agree, but the problem is, if it's an impulse-buy, most companies are very reluctant to advertise the fact that Securom is included with the game, which should be a warning in and of itself.
Especially if it causes system instability.
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Agreed, thing is, I'm not sure whether it's my Disc-Emulation stuff or the fact that my DVD player is, in fact, a DVD writer that Securom doesn't like, and it really shouldn't matter anyway.
I know there are a few articles about that say that Disc Emulation stuff accesses the system at exactly the same level as Securom, but the big difference, from my point of view, is that I chose to install Daemon Tools, I didn't choose to install Securom, and that's what irks me :(
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What irks me is that DRM is fundamentally impossible. The only way for DRM to work is to give each game a unique ID (cd-key), and only allow one instance of a given key to run at any one point. This requires an internet connection. Any DRM that attempts to do something other then that is full of crap and just plain does not freaking work, which was demonstrated when Spore was cracked before it was even officially released!
Only DRM that works: Require an internet connection and only let one unique CD-key online at any one point, given a database of approved CD-keys. Anything else is pointless. May I point out that even this form of DRM is really easy to implement with the only requirement from the consumer be that an internet connection is required. You don't need a freaking virtual audio driver. This is technocrap that does nothing but clog up your system for absolutely no reason. If you want your game to be available offline, IT GETS PIRATED. End of story.
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Even that type of DRM is fundamentally flawed. All it takes is someone to duplicate the CD key and as soon as they are running the game with the key the legitimate owner cannot.
Video games have survived since at least 1980 without DRM. Believe me pirating was rampant even back then. On a percentage basis probably even more then it is now. If anything kills video games it will be corporate greed. Release the games by a deadline even if they aren't ready and charge top dollar for them. That's the bottom line. Until that is changed DRM or no DRM sales will fall. When sales fall they need a scapegoat so they blame pirating.
Wonder how long before they start shipping blank CD's and tell you to download the patch which isn't available for a year.......
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I feel the need to point out that the online-DRM check thing doesn't work, either. After all, there's a :arrr: version of Steam.
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Personally, I'm of the opinion that the whole online activation thing (3 installs and your out) is nothing to do with Piracy in the first place, it's much more about destroying the second hand market for Video Games. A lot of companies are complaining that second hand sales are money out of their hands (despite the fact that the Video and Music industries seem to have coped for the last several decades), and even worse is their dogma that if they had more money they would make better games, because it's utter crap.
If they had more money, the games still would not go above the average capability of the hardware available, since they want to reach as wide an audience as possible, and not only that, any extra money they make doesn't find its way to the actual 'ground crew', it goes straight into the sweaty hands of shareholders and higher management echelons, it wouldn't have the tiniest effect on the quality of games.
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i have never bought any new EA games, just downloaded them. crysis, and warhead and played them, lasted about 1 hour on both sides. downloaded supreme commander, no identifiable DRM and lasted 6 days. there is a real difference there.
The last EA game i bought was Tiberium wars, just before the DRM luckily enough. i will never install any software that secretly transmits info back to the base is was designed to transmit to. virus, rootkit or spyware or not it's not going to happen on my end.
im going to get some spare ribs and bosch beer, that will occupy me for a while better then being annoyed by DRM.
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Well, congratulations.
You guys have successfully proved that only an idiot would develop games for the PC - DRM doesn't work, people pirate in droves, and complain if you try anything to maybe make sure they pay. Only a moron is going to invest time or money in that.
Which probably explains the bugs.
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:wtf:
Nope, no-ones saying only an idiot would develop for PC, what we are saying is that only an idiot would try to impose the kinds of DRM that are currently used. There's a damn good reason to write for PC's, which is the simple fact that I, or Blackhole or the SCP Team can with a lot more ease than developing for the PS3 etc, where the hardware you need in order to do so is considered illegal.
What is being said here is that the current business model isn't working, not the idea of writing games for PCs, but the implementation of it. Games retailers wholly mistrust their users, an idea that was inherent in the design of consoles, if you think consoles don't have DRM, think again, the only difference is that consoles cannot run the other utilities that DRM often breaks, its their limitations that make them safer in that respect.
Software that potentially damages the computer, or leaves them unable to run the game is, quite clearly, not doing the task it was designed to do.
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You guys have successfully proved that only an idiot would develop games for the PC - DRM doesn't work, people pirate in droves, and complain if you try anything to maybe make sure they pay. Only a moron is going to invest time or money in that.
None of that implies that they are not making a substantial profit.
Like a lot of game publishers these days, you seem to be under the impression that trying to fight piracy (not even stopping it, but just trying to) is more important than actually maximizing profits. And yes, only a moron is going to spend money on DRM systems that don't work. However, since there are in fact plenty of morons around, Sony must be laughing all the way to the bank. :p
On a side note, Fallout 3 is actually one of more annoying games I've seen in terms of DRM, despite people saying that it's relatively mild. The installer automatically opens the Securom-loaded launcher without any prompting, so I had to spend a few minutes cleaning out all the Securom crap from my system. Most games don't do this, so they can be cracked before you actually open the exe and you don't need to deal with the DRM at all.
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You guys have successfully proved that only an idiot would develop games for the PC - DRM doesn't work, people pirate in droves, and complain if you try anything to maybe make sure they pay. Only a moron is going to invest time or money in that.
None of that implies that they are not making a substantial profit.
Like a lot of game publishers these days, you seem to be under the impression that trying to fight piracy (not even stopping it, but just trying to) is more important than actually maximizing profits. And yes, only a moron is going to spend money on DRM systems that don't work. However, since there are in fact plenty of morons around, Sony must be laughing all the way to the bank. :p
On a side note, Fallout 3 is actually one of more annoying games I've seen in terms of DRM, despite what people say about it. The installer automatically opens the Securom-loaded launcher without any prompting, so I had to spend a few minutes cleaning out all the Securom crap from my system. Most games don't do this, so they can be cracked before you actually open the exe and you don't need to deal with the DRM at all.
Thank you. This isn't a thread about PC Games being crap, it is a thread about DRM rendering my computer unable to play them, which means I have no idea if they are crap or not. That's what I have a problem with.
God forbid customers should be annoyed about spending 35 quid for a tea coaster... I'm not a fan of piracy, but it's never pirates who have to cope with this kind of stuff, it's the paying customers, maybe if more game developers realised that the only people who suffer for the DRM are the ones who actually pay for the games then they'd realise just how much they are damaging themselves.
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Even that type of DRM is fundamentally flawed. All it takes is someone to duplicate the CD key and as soon as they are running the game with the key the legitimate owner cannot.
Alright, I revise my statement: All DRM is fundamentally flawed. However I want to point out that the one CD-key online at a time worked extremely well for diablo II.
You guys have successfully proved that only an idiot would develop games for the PC - DRM doesn't work, people pirate in droves, and complain if you try anything to maybe make sure they pay. Only a moron is going to invest time or money in that.
You are running under the absurd notion that the fact that pirating is rampant means one cannot make a profit. Remember that a lot of people pirate games they wouldn't buy in the first place. If games weren't making a profit, they wouldn't have multimillion dollar budgets.
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I'm always very dubious of the claims of 'how much money we've lost to Piracy' from Game Developers anyway, it makes some extremely shifty assumptions, not the least of which is that every pirate is a lost customer, which is an extremely broad brush to paint with.
Game Developers need to develop an open-minded approach to IP Protection, simply punishing paying customers, and leaving pirates to laugh at the same customers for having to deal with draconian DRM that stands a chance of leaving the game totally unplayable is not the way to go.
So, one minute, they are quite happy to leave you with a useless disc once they have your money, the next minute they are complaining that too many people are downloading games with the DRM removed, it's a case of 'cake and eat it'.
As mentioned before, the Game Industry makes a massive profit, more than Videos and Music combined, in fact, and, to be honest, I wouldn't be all that surprised if Piracy dropped if DRM was made less threatening, restrictive and draconian in nature.
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Yeah, they're making the games for consoles and making a lot of money. That's the thing about the gaming industry - it includes the consoles where piracy ain't nearly the problem it is for the PC. Who's making a lot of money in the PC realms? The only one that springs to mind is blizzard, and that's from their unpiratable MMO. You know, the one where they're establishing the legality of EULAs in the court system with?
I've heard the 'they wouldn't have bought it anyway, so it doesn't count' argument before, and it was convincing until I actually sat back and thought about the economics of it. Bobby pirates a $60 game - oh, he wouldn't have bought it for $60. But would he have bought it at $30? The world will never know. More to the point, because he's pirated a game, his desire for entertainment is fulfilled. That's reducing demand across the industry - cause lets be honest, since he's got a stolen $60 game, he ain't exactly running to the store to buy another game, at any price. The man who steals a coke - whether or not he would've bought that coke - still ain't buying pepsi, or rc cola, or bargain basement soda, or water.
Find me a piracy apologist who who actually takes this arguement through the steps of an actual economic analysis, and I'll listen to it again. Until then, it's in the same group as republicans talking about tax cuts being good, and democrats saying tax cuts are bad - pure rhetoric.
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In that case, your statements are also purely rhetoric, and this is a circular argument.
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Oh, indeed.
At which point the simple rule of common sense jumps in, and I think about how stolen property is accounted for in any other situation, and all of a sudden the gaming industries figures look right on target.
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Yeah, they're making the games for consoles and making a lot of money. That's the thing about the gaming industry - it includes the consoles where piracy ain't nearly the problem it is for the PC. Who's making a lot of money in the PC realms? The only one that springs to mind is blizzard, and that's from their unpiratable MMO. You know, the one where they're establishing the legality of EULAs in the court system with?
I've heard the 'they wouldn't have bought it anyway, so it doesn't count' argument before, and it was convincing until I actually sat back and thought about the economics of it. Bobby pirates a $60 game - oh, he wouldn't have bought it for $60. But would he have bought it at $30? The world will never know. More to the point, because he's pirated a game, his desire for entertainment is fulfilled. That's reducing demand across the industry - cause lets be honest, since he's got a stolen $60 game, he ain't exactly running to the store to buy another game, at any price. The man who steals a coke - whether or not he would've bought that coke - still ain't buying pepsi, or rc cola, or bargain basement soda, or water.
Find me a piracy apologist who who actually takes this arguement through the steps of an actual economic analysis, and I'll listen to it again. Until then, it's in the same group as republicans talking about tax cuts being good, and democrats saying tax cuts are bad - pure rhetoric.
Do you think EA would have spent i don't know how much money developing The Sims 3 if The Sims 2 hadn't made them absurd amounts of money? That was a PC only game, and it was easiely piratable.
I'm not saying "Pirating games doesn't hurt the industry because those people wouldn't have bought games in the first place." Thats stupid. I'm saying that the effect of pirating is massively overrated by all the big corporations. Lots of people pirated the crap out of spore. A whole crapload more actually bought the damn game despite there being massive boycotts on it and all this other crazy stuff because of the DRM. They still made craploads of money off of it.
To say that there is no money in the PC gaming industry because of all the pirating is like saying there isn't any money in the music industry because no one buys music anymore. It's not true.
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I don't pirate games. I will not buy a game with DRM period. I will not by a console or console game period as I built a top of the line computer to game with. Those are sales that are lost as well. Where are your figures on sales lost that way?
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Fubar, can you please list 10 DRM free games you built a top of the line computer to play?
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Fubar, can you please list 10 DRM free games you built a top of the line computer to play?
Crysis, anyone?
But you raise an important point - Where are all the good games that don't have DRM? There aren't many of them. This is because the game industry is stupid, lacks common sense and is full of greedy corporate dishrags that need to be put through the washer. It shouldn't cost millions of dollars to make a game, because then you just get overproduced pieces of **** with DRM. The game industry is floundering in the water with no lifevest because they are using a production model that is outdated and broken. I can literally make a more polished game the Fallout 3 by myself with the help of a single artist. It won't have gigabytes of content, but it will be stable, it will have good gameplay, it won't cost a fortune, it won't need updates to fix critical bugs that shouldn't exist in a final product, and it will be polished, like Diablo II, halo, Descent 3, FREESPACE 2, even Freelancer, that oh-crap-we-have-to-finish-this-game product that was shoved out the door was more polished and stable and had a better design the Fallsuck 3, DracoSporeDRM and Gears of I-can't-figure-out-how-big-my-installation-file-is.
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I don't know if I can do 10 and it's been 2 years since I built the last one for gaming: Couple of the last games I bought were Doom 3 and Darkstar 1. Games that I've built a system to run in the past include Unreal (the original), FS2 (of course), RTCW, Diablo II. Like I said I haven't bought any games in the last couple of years due to DRM and the last ones I bought all sucking (DarkStar 1 was good but no multi).
The ones I bought that sucked were: the entire Medal of honor collection up to Pacific assault. Battlefront II, KOTOR 2 (not even an ending for the dark side). There are a few others but I don't remember the names and the disks are in the bottom of my filing cabinet.
Now I have built a couple of other systems but they were for media and well a general all purpose core2quad which was close to top of the line especially in the Vid card area.
How about a couple of games I didn't buy because of DRM or stupid console only:
FarCry console only one between 1 and 2. Not sure what it was called.
FarCry 2
Halo 2 and above
Spore
Almost forgot Fallout 3 and since I never played them I would have bought 1 & 2 to play first.
I know there are more that were console only.
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Top of The Line is not necessary for a good game anyway, a good game is needed, Grand Theft Auto IV, for example, actually puts a drag on the system by running Social Club in the background all the time, which ups the spec requirements, yes, it can be disabled, but then you cannot play multiplayer, and it defaults to permanently on, I wouldn't be surprised if there are more games that add to the system requirements purely because of the DRM it uses, and that STILL doesn't address the fact that without 'pirate' type software (i.e. a No-CD crack) I cannot play games that I have paid for.
How does wanting to play something that I've already paid for make me a 'Pirate Apologist' as you so charmingly put it?
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Nope it's not but I've always figure if your going to build one build the best you can. This system that I built back in 03 I think probably still meets specs for every game released as long as Vista isn't a requirement.
Another thing I always hated was the disk required to play thing. I have multiple computers in 2 locations. If I want to play in both locations or on a different system I have to physically move the disks, make copies, or run a no-CD crack.
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Discs age as well, that's why the law used to state that you were allowed to make a back-up copy of things, because there's no such thing as indestructable media, but even that right has been taken away by the DMCA, so, not only are you only buying a license to play the game, but if the media itself gets damaged, you are expected to pay for another license to play the same game.
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Discs age as well, that's why the law used to state that you were allowed to make a back-up copy of things, because there's no such thing as indestructable media, but even that right has been taken away by the DMCA, so, not only are you only buying a license to play the game, but if the media itself gets damaged, you are expected to pay for another license to play the same game.
Really? When and where did that get changed? Mother****
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The DMCA made it illegal in 1998, a revision in 2003, means that their is some fair use protection for obsolete Video games, but no cover has ever been provided for simply making a secure back-up of non-obsolete ones, so if your disc dies before the game stops being sold, you have to buy a new copy under letter of law.
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The DMCA made it illegal in 1998, a revision in 2003, means that their is some fair use protection for obsolete Video games, but no cover has ever been provided for simply making a secure back-up of non-obsolete ones, so if your disc dies before the game stops being sold, you have to buy a new copy under letter of law.
That's GAY! GAAARRRGH!
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Some times you can't even backup a PC game.
When I Backed up a New game not damage (yes I back up some new game) and burn it into a blank CD
The program think the Game CD is corrupted. IT happen more than 3 times. Esp Redalert 2 and C@C Generals.
And those CD is getting Aged. IT got to be Some sort of DRM. :hopping:
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It is, simple disc-disc copying is practically impossible these days for any commercial software.
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It is, simple disc-disc copying is practically impossible these days for any commercial software.
Alcohol 120%/52% seems to do the job admirably
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I'll admit I haven't tried that program, but mostly you can copy the data, even install the program from it, but it will refuse to run.
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I'll admit I haven't tried that program, but mostly you can copy the data, even install the program from it, but it will refuse to run.
Well it's like daemon tools, makes a disc image, but alcohol utilises several methods (which can be time-consuming) to get past copy-protection, apparently, or to the length of my understanding anyway
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Okay. Now try to beat the Dreamcast's GB-discs. :ick:
I've never gotten third-party software to run on it.
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I was going to chime in here with a rather long winded response to some of the stuff in the last couple of pages, but Flipside has hit pretty much every point I wanted to make.
A few things I want to say again anyway:
PC Game companies are not losing tons of sales due to piracy, just like the music industry isn't. They're losing sales due to developing ****ty, boring games -just like the music industry is losing money due to signing on ****ty artists noone wants to listen to. Spore, one of the most hyped games of all time (and most pirated), is actually boring once you beat it once or twice. There is very little replay value. I played a friends copy... and glad I did because I never would shell out $60+ for that game. Companies like EA and Ubisoft have become so paranoid to venture into new grounds that they're trying to "improve" existing models by throwing tons of money at it instead of actually innovating. That's their business model. It works on consoles (where little Jonny's parents will buy him every new game), but it doesn't work on PC near as well. Look at Crysis. It's not a terrible game, but it sure as hell isn't that amazing, yet EA's main selling point for it was "ohh... it's SHINY!" An example of how to it right is Sins of a Solar Empire -it was developed for under $1 million and is one of the most fun RTS games I've played in a long time. It's innovative. It does things differently. And Stardock (unlike EA and Ubisoft) doesn't treat its customers like criminals. I'm happy to support a company that makes games I want to play, based on what I tell them I want in a game. EA makes games they want you to play based on what they say you want. That doesn't work in PC gaming... but it works on consoles.
Another thing to consider is being able to trade in a console game. If you shell out $60 for a ****ty game, you have the option of reclaiming a portion of that by selling it back or trading it. No such option exists for PC games, since by law it's illegal to resell opened PC software. This makes PC game buyers much more weary of spending money... and makes people download games to decide if they want to buy them. I've done that a couple of times with FEAR and Dawn of War. I DL'd the full game, liked it, and bought it. I've also downloaded a couple of games that I'm really glad I never spent $60 on. Seriously, spending money on PC gaming is like rolling a pair of dice and hoping you land a pair of 6's. At least on console you get a saving throw.
I can't remember who said it in this thread, but someone said it's not piracy that's the problem, it's the business model. That's so true. Again, see the music industry... they refuse to admit that piracy isn't the problem -actually, there have been at least 5 studies that say music piracy actually increases record sales.. and none to the contrary. I know the same doesn't hold true for PC games.. but this "piracy is killing PC games" is bull****. ****ty games that people don't want to spend $60 on is killing PC games.
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If game execs were smart, they'd give a game good singleplayer and awesome multiplayer, so then everyone will pirate the single player and like it so much they buy the full game so they can play the multiplayer. This is the phenomenon that made diablo II so ridiculously successful.
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Or just release the single player as a free download in the first place that way there is little overhead. You pay your fee, you get your personal code, and you can play all the multi you want wherever you want.
This again brigs up the problem with stolen codes. Pretty sure Diablo II had the same problem. A bunch of codes were activated before the games were even sold. So you got the CD and couldn't play online until you got a new code. Of course they weren't idiots about it like the EA spore fiasco.
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What about this
1:) Make computer with a number starting 1 to infinity on it bios.
2:) Download or buy the game
3:) Enter serial Code
4:) Check Computer BIO number
5:) Give customer the full version
Because BIOs is read only making DRM obsolete.
Like for example Your computer crash and you EULA say that 2 computers per license.
Computer 1: BIO number 6 // registered User
Computer 2: BIO number 2436 // registered User
IF you go over 2 computer the program prevents you from downloading/playing the game.
You can still downloaded because the license say that you register the game.
IF you want to remove the game simply delete the game and your license say you got one computer.
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What about this
1:) Make computer with a number starting 1 to infinity on it bios.
2:) Download or buy the game
3:) Enter serial Code
4:) Check Computer BIO number
5:) Give customer the full version
Because BIOs is read only making DRM obsolete.
Like for example Your computer crash and you EULA say that 2 computers per license.
Computer 1: BIO number 6 // registered User
Computer 2: BIO number 2436 // registered User
IF you go over 2 computer the program prevents you from downloading/playing the game.
You can still downloaded because the license say that you register the game.
IF you want to remove the game simply delete the game and your license say you got one computer.
Won't work. Reasons:
1. The BIOS is most definitely NOT read-only.
2. If i understand you correctly, this requires some form of remote activation by the game's producers; this could be problematic if those producers go bankrupt or decide to shut down the servers doing the activation.
3. DRM should never, EVER require me to register something online. I have no problems with keeping the game's disc in my drive in order to play, but needing an active internet connection to play a single-player game is just wrong.
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PC Game companies are not losing tons of sales due to piracy, just like the music industry isn't.
Well... now that isn't right. The piracy does hurt the companies quite a lot, but there are some other factors.
Development costs are rising, but you can't simply make your games more expensive. There are too many games in the same genre.
You either have to have a huge budget, or your chances of creating a top-selling horror/action fps are less than slim.
And there is the game reselling, which might be the main target of DRM. At least that's my guess.
DRM didn't have any effect on the piracy, but reselling your game became harder and it's harder to lend your DRM-protected game to a friend.
Reselling = another person plays the game, without any profit for the company.
I think it's wrong to target this market. Makes gaming more/too complicated.
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Won't work. Reasons:
1. The BIOS is most definitely NOT read-only.
2. If i understand you correctly, this requires some form of remote activation by the game's producers; this could be problematic if those producers go bankrupt or decide to shut down the servers doing the activation.
3. DRM should never, EVER require me to register something online. I have no problems with keeping the game's disc in my drive in order to play, but needing an active internet connection to play a single-player game is just wrong.
Using the BIOS for any kind of DRM is stupid for a number of reasons. It's not read only, and it gets updated by the manufacturer periodically. The best bet is to use the CPU registry number or the MAC address, but even when using those it just doesn't work because the algorythm can always be cracked.
DRM is impossible because the information that is available to the game on the client's computer is all available to the cracker, therefore making it impossible to secure a game with anything other then roundabout coding tricks that just piss everyone off, as so lovingly demonstrated by the pathetic DRM attempts done by the industry.
The best thing I've come up with so far is the one CD-key online at a time, except if you want to go online, you attach a password to the CD-key itself when the key is being activated (so probably during the download process). This means that even if a hacker can generate a CD-key collision, that customer's game is effectively password protected. You could have the game save and hash the password to keep it safe and to reduce the annoyance factor to simply "enter in your password once" when you go to play multiplayer for the first time or after reloading your machine or something.
The downside being that, again, its online-based and that user accounts are then attached to their CD-key, which is both an advantage and a disadvantage. This is why DRM should be limited to the multiplayer aspects of a game.
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PC Game companies are not losing tons of sales due to piracy, just like the music industry isn't.
Well... now that isn't right. The piracy does hurt the companies quite a lot, but there are some other factors.
Development costs are rising, but you can't simply make your games more expensive. There are too many games in the same genre.
And there is the game reselling, which might be the main target of DRM. At least that's my guess.
DRM didn't have any effect on the piracy, but reselling your game became harder and it's harder to lend your DRM-protected game to a friend.
Reselling = another person plays the game, without any profit for the company.
I think it's wrong to target this market. Makes gaming more/too complicated.
Well, I never said piracy didn't hurt.. but it sure as hell isn't the single handed PC gaming market killer all the companies want you to think it is. Especially since the major game companies achieved record profits last year. They're not losing money.
Reselling PC software is illegal in most places. It's also been proven that second-hand game sales do not in fact hurt the gaming industry. DRM is also doing nothing to prevent this. If you have the legit disc and a legit key you have no issues. Also, companies like EA and Ubisoft have time and time again made the flat statement that they use DRM to combat illegal copying of a game.
You either have to have a huge budget, or your chances of creating a top-selling horror/action fps are less than slim.
Not really. Stardock is a perfect example of this. Granted, I wouldn't call the RTS genre as crowded as the FPS genre, but making a good RTS is significantly harder than making a good FPS.. and they did SoaSE on ~$900,000. Innovative, fluid, and fresh gameplay is what sells games. Not big budgets. If it was big budgets, every EA game would be a top seller.
Another thing I think that is a problem is companies (again, EA..) vastly overestimating their "projected sales" to please their shareholders. I don't have the exact numbers.. but EA said one of their problems with Spore was that it undersold by something like 5 million. They of course blamed it on piracy.... not the fact that expecting to sell 12 million copies of the game was completely ludicrous.
And the thing about using a computer's hardware to generate a key... that wont work for the simple reason that gamers frequently update our hardware.
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The CD key/password thing is a good idea (with the before mentioned problem of requiring internet connection). Still it could be cracked. It also has the downside of how many people can play with one CD key? What if someone has 3 kids they want to be able to play? Do they have to by three copies to get three passwords?
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The CD key/password thing is a good idea (with the before mentioned problem of requiring internet connection). Still it could be cracked. It also has the downside of how many people can play with one CD key? What if someone has 3 kids they want to be able to play? Do they have to by three copies to get three passwords?
Thats the problem with having only one CD-key online at a time, and while I would normally try and check to see if you can ping a computer on the LAN with the 192.168.x.x address, there's bound to be a way to mask that. You could make it 3 people online at the same time with one CD-key/password.
The CD-key/password combo would be extremely difficult to crack with an MMO or other such central server that could reject players. In other cases you'd simply have a bunch of people with cracked versions playing with other people with cracked versions using a LAN like hamachi.
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Or just release the single player as a free download in the first place that way there is little overhead. You pay your fee, you get your personal code, and you can play all the multi you want wherever you want.
This again brigs up the problem with stolen codes. Pretty sure Diablo II had the same problem. A bunch of codes were activated before the games were even sold. So you got the CD and couldn't play online until you got a new code. Of course they weren't idiots about it like the EA spore fiasco.
...or God forbid make a demo!
...or even make the beginning of the game shareware.
Good Old Days of Gaming...ah, the memories!