Hard Light Productions Forums
General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: Black Wolf on November 15, 2009, 06:30:13 am
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I've been thinking about this lately from a couple of perspectives, primarily my on again, off again desire to write a novel (In terms of length, I know it could never be published) set across the course of the end of the TV war, the Great War and the immediate post war reconstruction. I have a vague idea about the kind of story I want to tell, and I think that that period in history would be fascinating, but to do so properly requires an understanding of the T-V War that we were never given in FS1 or 2. Essentially, I'm wondering what type of war it was, and what it would have been like to live through. I've got my own theory (which I'll describe here) but I'd like to hear other people's opinions too.
Anyway, the TV War. I'm ignoring any history created by Eishtmo or the TV War people and focussing solely on canon data, and drawing my own conclusions, so we don't know much about it - in fact, with the exception of a few tantalizing clues, we know hardly anything beyond the very broad strokes. It was a war between the Terrans and Vasudans that lasted 14 years and was still causing major casualties right up until the Shivans interrupted in 2335 (Operation Thresher killing over 500 pilots). We also know that big battles were taking place (Gulnara and Talania) with enough significance to alter design specs on cruisers, but spaced far enough apart that ships built between them were noticably different. OTherswise, we're given almost no information about the nature of the war.
I figure, then that the TV War was a sort of hybrid cold/hot war. Mostly, it involved building up the fleet and fortifying nodes. There would have been two major types of battles - firstly, you'd have your blockade run type, where one species would make a run on the other's node, either through the node (where each end was held by a different species) or from across the system (where each species held at least one entry point into a system). These would have been major, intensive efforts utilizing lots of capships and fighters with high casualty rates but major potential strategic gains. The aims would have been either to completely control the node by wiping out the opposition, or distract them long enough to slip some kind of force behind enemy lines (be they a recon or intelligence unit or a combat unit who would harass the other side from behind the lines).
The other type would be a system-wide battle, where each species had an entry point into a system, neither were strong enough for an assault on the others beachhead at the node, so they were jockeying for strategic position within the system. These would have been more variable, either being short and vicious or long and drawn out. A lot probably started short and vicious, but became drawn out battles of attrition if no clear victor could be determined in the first few days or weeks.
I suspect Operation Thresher was probably a Terran node assault in a contested system (Antares) followed by a Vasudan counterattack. That would explain the battle lasting two days and the high casualty rate among pilots (more than 5 times the fighter complement of an Orion).
In between these battles though, there would have been long periods of relative inactivity outside of the directly contested systems. Forces behind the lines would have been a constant threat, harassing shipping and collecting intelligence, but there probably would have been months of these minor harassment skirmishes followed by periods of intense activity whenever one fleet or the other reached critical mass and was able to contemplate another node assault, a lot like trench warfare in WW1 (with the node assaults the equivalent of going 'Over the Top').
Ground combat I'm a bit less certain of. I'm not sure whether it would have occurred as a consequence of a system changing hands (i.e. the Terrans, for example, capture a system from the Vasudans, gain dominance over space, then send troops in to eliminate ground forces) or if planets would have been attacked as a priority in the first days of an invasion. I guess this depends a lot on whether fighters were deploying from ground bases and whether the planets were part of a distributed supply network, or supplies came in on long chains from homeworlds and colonies safely behind the lines.
So, what would this have been like to live through? I'm not really certain. I mean, most of us have been living through a war for the past 8 years (if we happen to live in countries who've committed troops to Afghanistan or Iraq) without it really affecting our daily lives. The battles are very far away, and fought by professional armies, so there's been no war rationing or war level taxation or draft. This has some parallels with what you'd expect from the TV War - a technologically advanced war would need trained pilots and soldiers, negating the major benefits of a draft, plus the core systems like Earth and Vasuda prime would have been so well defended that the idea of enemy troops actually striking directly at major populations centres away from colonies would be unlikely.
However, we also know that research and development was going on, and that building combat vessels is resource intensive. This would imply a certain amount of "Total War" mentality could easily have been applied, including increased taxes to fund fleet building operations and possibly labour utilization (though like a draft, it's questionable as to how valuable unskilled labour would be in such a technologically complex area as building a starship.
So, I guess I'm drawing a conclusion that the TV War would have sat somewhere between Afghanistan and WW1 or 2 in terms of its impact on the civillian populace, perhaps somewhat akin to the Vietnam war, while the Great war would have had a much more direct impact, minimized only by its relative shortness (3 months). Kind of like if the Viet-Cong had orchestrated a 9/11 type attack, or a series of such attacks. Suddenly, civillians would have been directly affected and potentially in the firing line.
So, what am I asking for? Basically your impressions of the TV War, and how you think it would have gone down from a civillian perspective. Would it have been something that affected every citizen's daily lives, or just something that people living in the colonies and the military/military-industrial people would be really worrying about on a regular basis.
TL;DR - How do you think the question "What did you do during the war" Would be interpreted in 2336? Would it refer to just the great war, or the 14 year war in total, and would it even be the type of question you'd ask (i.e. nobody would ask any non-soldier today "What they did during the war" in reference to Afghanistan).
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IMO, because the 14 year war was a war of attrition I think it would have been more like WW2 from a US perspective. This would be a battle between two species not a limited fight against insurgents. The fighting would be far from home but would require large amounts of resources and manpower. There would be copious amounts of propaganda and there would almost have to be a draft. The technological advances would just require a longer training time before recruits would be sent to the field, but the base technological level of Terrans would be high. While many countries can get by with just a professional army for small conflicts something on the scale of the TV war would require replacements for military losses that could not be handled by just volunteers. Both the Terrans and Vasudans would try to disrupt shipping of supplies, so in addition to major offensives there would be small harassment missions like the German submarines, commerce raiders and airplanes that harassed the Atlantic convoys. Rationing would be in effect especially as the war dragged on. Much of the economy would be geared toward the production of material to support the war effort. There would have to be ground combat of some sort to take and hold a system or a space station.
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Very interesting and well-thought little speech.
However I'm not very sure that the core systems were that unlikely to be assaulted during the T-V War. Remember that there were few defensive structures able to effectively hold a blockade during and before the FS1-era - no Mjolnir, nothing bigger than Watchdogs unable to scratch the paint of a destroyer. Which mean that blockades have to be held by a lot of capital ships and, given the inefficiency of capital-grade weaponry, with a significant fighter and bomber support. And ships able to carry fighter support were very few. I don't think either side was able to maintain that kind of blockade on many nodes at a time, meaning that only those close to the front line were actively defended.
Which means that any capital ship that successfully manage to run a blockade can potentially go quite far in enemy territory before being gunned down. Add to that the fact that you only have 4 jumps between Vasuda and Sol, and you'll see what I mean. Even if there was more than a dozen system explored at this time, the proximity between both core systems is what really makes very likely some skirmishes close to the home systems during the T-V war.
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Your initial vision of the TV War is almost exactly how I imagined it too. :yes:
But about the front-line deal:
What started out as a show of strength and technology degenerated into a war of attrition, with both sides suffering heavy losses. Terran and Vasudan ships skirmished in remote areas of space while the politicos flapped their gums on the news.
The way I see it, there would be some heavy fighting in the systems near Sol and Vasuda (Antares, Beta Aquilae) where large, costly operations like Operation Thresher would be carried out by both sides, and skirmish-fighting in the more remote systems like Betelgeuse and the Capellan colonies.
We should also remember that by the start of FS1 the Terrans were less than 1 jump away from Vasuda at the frontline in the Antares system. I suspect Operation Thresher was an attempt to take control of the Vasuda-Antares Node, which failed but still managed to prevent the Vasudans getting supplies into Antares.
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Very interesting and well-thought little speech.
However I'm not very sure that the core systems were that unlikely to be assaulted during the T-V War. Remember that there were few defensive structures able to effectively hold a blockade during and before the FS1-era - no Mjolnir, nothing bigger than Watchdogs unable to scratch the paint of a destroyer. Which mean that blockades have to be held by a lot of capital ships and, given the inefficiency of capital-grade weaponry, with a significant fighter and bomber support. And ships able to carry fighter support were very few. I don't think either side was able to maintain that kind of blockade on many nodes at a time, meaning that only those close to the front line were actively defended.
Which means that any capital ship that successfully manage to run a blockade can potentially go quite far in enemy territory before being gunned down. Add to that the fact that you only have 4 jumps between Vasuda and Sol, and you'll see what I mean. Even if there was more than a dozen system explored at this time, the proximity between both core systems is what really makes very likely some skirmishes close to the home systems during the T-V war.
One fault with this, systems like Ribos were mentioned to be heavily fortified. So, we may not have seen some of the heavier blockade type defenses in FS1 that were present in the period. (and useless against the Shivans)
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OH GOD NOT THE TELEVISION WARS!
soo brutal...
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Very interesting and well-thought little speech.
However I'm not very sure that the core systems were that unlikely to be assaulted during the T-V War. Remember that there were few defensive structures able to effectively hold a blockade during and before the FS1-era - no Mjolnir, nothing bigger than Watchdogs unable to scratch the paint of a destroyer. Which mean that blockades have to be held by a lot of capital ships and, given the inefficiency of capital-grade weaponry, with a significant fighter and bomber support. And ships able to carry fighter support were very few. I don't think either side was able to maintain that kind of blockade on many nodes at a time, meaning that only those close to the front line were actively defended.
Which means that any capital ship that successfully manage to run a blockade can potentially go quite far in enemy territory before being gunned down. Add to that the fact that you only have 4 jumps between Vasuda and Sol, and you'll see what I mean. Even if there was more than a dozen system explored at this time, the proximity between both core systems is what really makes very likely some skirmishes close to the home systems during the T-V war.
I'm not so sure that would be the case. At least based on what we see in-game during FS1, destroyers at that time were a relatively rare commodity, and the destruction of one was treated as a major defeat; in contrast, by the time of FS2, destroyers are generally more plentiful and less of a critical loss. I could see the GTA sending a Leviathan through on a blockade run, but I couldn't see an Orion or Typhon being subjected to that sort of risk, no matter what gains could potentially be made by it. Destroyers of that era were far more valuable as fighter carriers than direct ship-to-ship weapons.
I like all of the ideas flying around in here. This is an era in the story that doesn't get talked about all that much, and it could use some more discussion loving. :yes:
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For a war to last 14 on a very limited number of systems (look at the nodmap : only about 10 systems are strategic to go from Vasuda to Sol (ok, maybe through Debbe you can do a long turn and go back on Vasuda)), I expect several things :
1. The war was low density. No side had real objective to destroy the other side (war as a way to support an authoritarian regime ?) or no will to use tremendous ressources (see Afghanistan sure the West could nuke every single square meter - that's just not the objective), at least at the beginning, or
2. The offensive technologies (from a node to another system) were extremely poor : maybe no way to project fighters (no Destroyer for instance), maybe the first vessels capable of interjump system were too heavy and cumbersome to be any use, I don't know.
3. In 14 years, I believe there were breakthrough, but since no one was good enough to go until Sol/Vasuda, I assume that ships (at least at the beginning of the war) use a MASSIVE volume of supply, which hampers lasting breakthrough. Maybe you can take one system. Not more. This also makes strategy like "I do a fake attacks to let some assets slip through and attack from behind unlikely, since there is the supply problem.
4. The war accelerated in the final years : 500 deathes seems like nothing to us or to a shivan war, remember that a Cruiser down is more than 500 deathes. Yet, it is unusual enough to be mentioned in the first briefing.
Thesis 1,2,4 are supported IMO by the arrival of the Shivan. I have the rather common assumption that Shivans are attracted by massive subspace usage. The fact that they haven't been attracted earlier could mean that there were few subspace jumps => Few attacks => Trench war. I have this system, don't attack it.
Finally, I don't believe in skirmishes (EDIT : except at the beginning as an "escalation", and at the end) . It is very easy to hold a system, very hard to attack a new one. Once you hold a system, you can probably blockade the node then clean the system. This situation is NOT adapted to "skirmishes". The way I see it, there is a large battle from time to time, when one side tries to force a blockade, and then a long period without any battle, for several monthes. Except at the end of the TV War, of course.
As a conclusion, this was IMHO far from a total war, more like Yugoslavia / Afghanistan for the average American and even better European guy. Some people are fighting far awau, in a war that cannot be won but that no one imagine losing either, with important ressources committed but not a full economy. I take as a proof the discontinuation of the Leviathan when the war was considered almost finished : I don't imagine this kind of behaviour in a total war (see WWI / WWII, where munition were produced until the last day).
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I always thought of the T-V war as a series of skirmishes that escalated into an all out galactic war.
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Isn't it mentioned that both governments were nearly at a point of collapse at the time of the Shivan arrival?
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Anyway, the TV War. I'm ignoring any history created by Eishtmo or the TV War people and focussing solely on canon data, and drawing my own conclusions, so we don't know much about it - in fact, with the exception of a few tantalizing clues, we know hardly anything beyond the very broad strokes.
Finally, someone else that's willing to take a crack at this. I developed most of the 14 Year War stuff for story and campaign development, so much of it is less than trustworthy on the subject. Still, this doesn't mean I can't reevaluate much of it.
Anyway, let's discuss some of the issues:
One fault with this, systems like Ribos were mentioned to be heavily fortified. So, we may not have seen some of the heavier blockade type defenses in FS1 that were present in the period. (and useless against the Shivans)
Tombaugh Station was said to be a "fortress," which could mean that it just had a lot of ships, perhaps even an Orion, hanging around. There's no comments about the rest of the system, which could have had anything.
Much of the economy would be geared toward the production of material to support the war effort.
This seems relevant as it is commented that the war was putting severe economic strain on the GTA, and likely the PVE as well. So there was a signficant amount of resources going into the war, especially in the later years.
However I'm not very sure that the core systems were that unlikely to be assaulted during the T-V War. Remember that there were few defensive structures able to effectively hold a blockade during and before the FS1-era - no Mjolnir, nothing bigger than Watchdogs unable to scratch the paint of a destroyer. Which mean that blockades have to be held by a lot of capital ships and, given the inefficiency of capital-grade weaponry, with a significant fighter and bomber support. And ships able to carry fighter support were very few. I don't think either side was able to maintain that kind of blockade on many nodes at a time, meaning that only those close to the front line were actively defended.
Which means that any capital ship that successfully manage to run a blockade can potentially go quite far in enemy territory before being gunned down. Add to that the fact that you only have 4 jumps between Vasuda and Sol, and you'll see what I mean. Even if there was more than a dozen system explored at this time, the proximity between both core systems is what really makes very likely some skirmishes close to the home systems during the T-V war.
There are a lot of questions brought up here. Couple this with the almost complete lack of a Vasudan destroyer for most of the war, and the Orion possibly being in service for nearly the entire thing, one has to wonder how the Vasudans prevented the conquest of their systems early on.
The obvious point is one Mongoose made: Destroyers are rare. There are 6 named Orions in FS1 and Silent Threat (Galatea, Bastion, Amadaus, Intrepid, Krios and Soyakaze) and 4 Typhons (Pinnacle, Hope, Prophecy and Anvil). Two other Terran destroyers, Eisenhower and Goliath, are named, but not specifically identifed as Orions, and then there's the Orion from FS2's opening cutscene which was explicately stated to NOT be the Galatea, nor is it any of the other named Orions, so that brings us up to 7 active Orions. The Shivans, likewise, have only 3 named destroyers (Eva, Tantalas and Lucifer), and then there's the Hades, which is another issue entirely.
So the GTA has 7 destroyers, two of which are close enough to each other to exchange pilots for a single mission early in the war. They did outnumber the Vasudans, but after the Vega Engagement, were less likely to do so (even 3 years later). So why not just go balls out and invade Vasuda itself?
The thought leads me to one small statement when talking about the Shivans:
Oddly enough, the Shivans don't seem to be interested in taking control of any planets in the systems, or gathering natural resources. Instead they seem to be focused on controlling individual jump nodes.
If taking and holding nodes were a normal part of the 14 Year War, why would this be considered odd? Maybe it's simply referencing the planetary conquest angle, but I think it's about the nodes. The conclusion I have is that it WAS considered odd, and that most of the war WASN'T about the nodes at all. Sure, they WERE important, they were bottlenecks and while taking control of a specific ones was important, it wasn't the focus of the work. Remember, there were Vasudans in Ross 128, a system that, relative to the frontlines, was BEHIND Sol itself.
With this in mind, I think we might safely conclude that the 14 Year War wasn't much of a space war, it was almost exclusively a GROUND war, fighting over planets. The fleet's job was to help cover ground operations, escorting transports to planets and between the systems. Assulting nodes, destroyer vs destroyer engagements, grand scale fighter battles were NOT what the fleet did normally. Operation Thresher doesn't counter this, it actually provides evidence for it as it seems to have been poorly planned and cost far more than expected.
The Shivan invasion, purely a fleet action, seems to have caught the GTA and PVE flatfooted and unprepared. Sure, we can say it's because of the tech gap and the Lucifer, but the losses quickly mount and it's only by luck that they survive the war at all. Hell, they didn't even have a decent space bomb until AFTER the Shivans appear. It also explains the dramatic change in the character of the fleet between FS1 and FS2, where fleet combat becomes MORE important than ever before. Beam weapons are developed, flak guns, ships specializing in anti-capital ship warfare and new classes of space bombs appear. Reaction to the Shivans, yes, but why not have this kind of thing as a reaction to the Vasudans more than 40 years ago?
I'm going to say because it was a completely different kind of war, a ground war, and the fleet was just kind of watching over the war and particpating on a limited level. Gulnara and Talania could have been major ground battles, not space battles. And what of the Vega Engagement? That's such an odd name, isn't it? Engagement. Why not say "Battle of Vega?" Answer: It wasn't considered a battle at all, it was a fleet action, and a exceptionally rare one at that. It just resulted in a horrific loss. Perhaps it was the first destroyer vs destroyer fight the GTA and PVE ever fought!
It's a different thought at least.
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This is an interesting discussion, and I like where it's going.
While the player is fighting the Vasudans in FS1, the engagements are very small. This may be mostly due to the fact that it's the beginning of the campaign, but even during the relatively intense "Small Deadly Space" mission, there weren't huge wings of Vasudan fighters spawning. At that point, fighting may have been on a smaller scale. A wing of fighters might get in a skirmish with another wing, and hell...if the Zods lose 2 out of 4 pilots, they may just retreat (I think it's mostly gameplay reasons that all fights are fights to the death of the last man).
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The war accelerated in the final years : 500 deathes seems like nothing to us or to a shivan war, remember that a Cruiser down is more than 500 deathes. Yet, it is unusual enough to be mentioned in the first briefing.
500 PILOT deaths.
Pilots are far harder to replace and train than other military personel.
Ground pounders? 500 lost is nothing.
Ship crew? 500 is again, almost nothing.
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The war accelerated in the final years : 500 deathes seems like nothing to us or to a shivan war, remember that a Cruiser down is more than 500 deathes. Yet, it is unusual enough to be mentioned in the first briefing.
500 PILOT deaths.
Pilots are far harder to replace and train than other military personel.
You got a point. I knew this, but reading the briefing again it is obvious that the important information is that they are pilots, not only "deathes".
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However I'm not very sure that the core systems were that unlikely to be assaulted during the T-V War. Remember that there were few defensive structures able to effectively hold a blockade during and before the FS1-era - no Mjolnir, nothing bigger than Watchdogs unable to scratch the paint of a destroyer. Which mean that blockades have to be held by a lot of capital ships and, given the inefficiency of capital-grade weaponry, with a significant fighter and bomber support. And ships able to carry fighter support were very few. I don't think either side was able to maintain that kind of blockade on many nodes at a time, meaning that only those close to the front line were actively defended.
Which means that any capital ship that successfully manage to run a blockade can potentially go quite far in enemy territory before being gunned down. Add to that the fact that you only have 4 jumps between Vasuda and Sol, and you'll see what I mean. Even if there was more than a dozen system explored at this time, the proximity between both core systems is what really makes very likely some skirmishes close to the home systems during the T-V war.
There are a lot of questions brought up here. Couple this with the almost complete lack of a Vasudan destroyer for most of the war, and the Orion possibly being in service for nearly the entire thing, one has to wonder how the Vasudans prevented the conquest of their systems early on.
The obvious point is one Mongoose made: Destroyers are rare. There are 6 named Orions in FS1 and Silent Threat (Galatea, Bastion, Amadaus, Intrepid, Krios and Soyakaze) and 4 Typhons (Pinnacle, Hope, Prophecy and Anvil). Two other Terran destroyers, Eisenhower and Goliath, are named, but not specifically identifed as Orions, and then there's the Orion from FS2's opening cutscene which was explicately stated to NOT be the Galatea, nor is it any of the other named Orions, so that brings us up to 7 active Orions. The Shivans, likewise, have only 3 named destroyers (Eva, Tantalas and Lucifer), and then there's the Hades, which is another issue entirely.
So the GTA has 7 destroyers, two of which are close enough to each other to exchange pilots for a single mission early in the war. They did outnumber the Vasudans, but after the Vega Engagement, were less likely to do so (even 3 years later). So why not just go balls out and invade Vasuda itself?
Few destroyers, yes. But still something bothers me : there were Vasudans in Ross 128, far behind enemy lines. How did they went here ? Fighters didn't have inter-system jump drives before the end of FS1, so either they were carried by a capital ship (and the only canon ships at this era able to carry fighters are destroyers), or they were build on site, which is quite unlikely. We can still suppose the existence of a non-canon unfeatured Vasudan light carrier or something like that, but still, that would be quite odd.
The thought leads me to one small statement when talking about the Shivans:
Oddly enough, the Shivans don't seem to be interested in taking control of any planets in the systems, or gathering natural resources. Instead they seem to be focused on controlling individual jump nodes.
If taking and holding nodes were a normal part of the 14 Year War, why would this be considered odd? Maybe it's simply referencing the planetary conquest angle, but I think it's about the nodes. The conclusion I have is that it WAS considered odd, and that most of the war WASN'T about the nodes at all. Sure, they WERE important, they were bottlenecks and while taking control of a specific ones was important, it wasn't the focus of the work. Remember, there were Vasudans in Ross 128, a system that, relative to the frontlines, was BEHIND Sol itself.
With this in mind, I think we might safely conclude that the 14 Year War wasn't much of a space war, it was almost exclusively a GROUND war, fighting over planets. The fleet's job was to help cover ground operations, escorting transports to planets and between the systems. Assulting nodes, destroyer vs destroyer engagements, grand scale fighter battles were NOT what the fleet did normally. Operation Thresher doesn't counter this, it actually provides evidence for it as it seems to have been poorly planned and cost far more than expected.
The Shivan invasion, purely a fleet action, seems to have caught the GTA and PVE flatfooted and unprepared. Sure, we can say it's because of the tech gap and the Lucifer, but the losses quickly mount and it's only by luck that they survive the war at all. Hell, they didn't even have a decent space bomb until AFTER the Shivans appear. It also explains the dramatic change in the character of the fleet between FS1 and FS2, where fleet combat becomes MORE important than ever before. Beam weapons are developed, flak guns, ships specializing in anti-capital ship warfare and new classes of space bombs appear. Reaction to the Shivans, yes, but why not have this kind of thing as a reaction to the Vasudans more than 40 years ago?
I'm going to say because it was a completely different kind of war, a ground war, and the fleet was just kind of watching over the war and particpating on a limited level. Gulnara and Talania could have been major ground battles, not space battles. And what of the Vega Engagement? That's such an odd name, isn't it? Engagement. Why not say "Battle of Vega?" Answer: It wasn't considered a battle at all, it was a fleet action, and a exceptionally rare one at that. It just resulted in a horrific loss. Perhaps it was the first destroyer vs destroyer fight the GTA and PVE ever fought!
It's a different thought at least.
Ground war. Interesting point of vue for a space-sim :D. I think the thing that GTA/PVN found odd was the fact that Shivans focused entirely on nodes, yes, but mainly because they didn't even try to take advantage of natural resources in the systems they controlled. If the T-V wars was something close to a trench war, the main advantage of gaining ground on the enemy was to gain control of the resources on the areas newly controlled (think planets, gas giants, asteroids, whatever), and the fact the Shivans didn't do that was what surprised them. And that's in fact an asset in the Shivan strategy because that makes less rear-guard operations to defend.
And about the bomb thing, I think hard to believe that there were no bombs before FS1. The fact they aren't featured doesn't mean that there weren't any at all. It's obvious, but the Angel is canonically known to exist not far before FS1 but isn't featured. On the other hand, both GTA and PVN had bombers before the Shivan incursion (Athena, Amun, Osiris, and nothing canonically says that the Medusa wasn't already in service too) and I don't see why they would be called "bombers" if they can't carry anything bigger than Furies. On the other hand, Amun are know to have destroyed 3 Orion during the T-V War. How do you expect them to do so without bombs ?
And if the GTA/PVN were caught unprepared by the Shivan invasion, that's not only because they expected more ground actions, but mainly for the same reason the France fell that quickly before the German advance at the very beginning of WW2 : unexpected warfare tactics. France prepared themselves for a WW1-like war, building the Maginot line, and were smashed by the flank attack and the swiftness of the Blitzkrieg. If we consider the T-V war like a trench war, then the Shivans aggressive tactics, attacking without warning on all fronts, using uncharted jump nodes and the inter-system jump ability of their fighters to attack deeper in allied-controlled systems, are truly tactics the GTA/PVN wasn't prepared for at all.
So "ground war" is an interesting hypothesis, but I think it's a bit far from the space-sim point of vue and that we can explains things staying closer to space warfare.
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So "ground war" is an interesting hypothesis, but I think it's a bit far from the space-sim point of vue and that we can explains things staying closer to space warfare.
You won't see me defend it to much, really. It was something fun to find evidence for, providing a completely different perspective on a war we know so little about.
Which doesn't mean that some of the elements of this doesn't have merit, and in thinking harder about it, perhaps there is a viable 'ground war' hypothesis.
The core issue with the 14 Year War is that we have no evidence that the Vasudans had a destroyer before 2333, nearly 12 YEARS after the war started, and we have some evidence that the Orion existed before that, perhaps from as early as the begining of the war. So how did the Vasudan navy manage to hold the GTA to a standstill for so long?
Maybe they didn't. We know Gulnara was a signficant enough defeat for the PVN that the GTA felt they no longer needed the Leviathan. Perhaps, the Vasudan fleet was all but destroyed in that battle. Then why didn't the GTA win? I suppose it comes down to what you consider "winning" to be.
Let's go back to that statement about the Shivans:
Oddly enough, the Shivans don't seem to be interested in taking control of any planets in the systems, or gathering natural resources. Instead they seem to be focused on controlling individual jump nodes.
Taking planets and gathering resources. This might have been the entire mission of the GTA. Securing Terran colonies, taking planets with valuable resources and making sure trade routes are secure. "Winning" the war might have simply been forcing the Vasudans to the negotiation table to ensure these factors. Destroying the Vasudan navy may have been what they were looking for.
But more signficantly, the GTA how has fleet superiority over the Vasudans, so they can do what they want. And what do they want? To secure Terran colonies, taking planets with valuable resources and making sure trade routes are secure. There's no incentive to invade Vasuda (Vasuda Prime is implied to be resource poor) so they don't. Instead, they focus on valuable worlds and the war drags on. The Orions oversee these operations, and the Leviathans only return to production when the Vasudans manage to scrape enough of a force together to win at Talania.
After that, perhaps the Vasudan fleet laid low. The fighting reverted to ground combat. And ground combat must have been hell. Harbingers were originally designed for planetary bombardment after all. The Terrans, feeling they had the Vasudan fleet in hand, simply didn't bother to improve their fleet any, they didn't even build any proper bombers short of the Athena.
Which brings us to the bombers. If there were no space bombs, why were there bombers? Well, maybe they weren't supposed to go after capital ships originally, they were designed to go after planetary targets. We kind of ignore the possiblity, mostly because it does seem rather silly, but given the possible extent of ground combat, it seems likely that the GTA and PVE had to use their ships in the atmosphere of planets. And the best way to deliver a 5000 MT bomb? Drop it from a bomber, perhaps a fighter bomber from low orbit. Doesn't need an engine for it at all, freefall works very well. Who knows.
So maybe the Vasudans spent this time developing the first generation anti-destroyer weapons and tactics, loaded them up on the first Typhon and sent it into Vega where they obliterated the 4th fleet. The GTA began pushing heir own development cycle for weapons culminating in the Tsunami (the Harbinger was developed specifically for the Lucifer, I believe).
In other words, the last two years of the 14 Year War were far different than the first 12. For most of the war, the GTA had fleet superiority and basically ran ground operations. Only in the last two years do the Vasudans finally provide a credible fleet threat, changing much of how the war was fought.
That seems to cover most of the holes, except for one:
But still something bothers me : there were Vasudans in Ross 128, far behind enemy lines. How did they went here ? Fighters didn't have inter-system jump drives before the end of FS1, so either they were carried by a capital ship (and the only canon ships at this era able to carry fighters are destroyers), or they were build on site, which is quite unlikely. We can still suppose the existence of a non-canon unfeatured Vasudan light carrier or something like that, but still, that would be quite odd.
If my idea holds, then yeah, the Vasudans build them on their colonies within each system, mostly to cover their ground forces. It was also the only way they could usually keep up the pressure on the Terrans in any given fight.
For my more traditional layout, I've always figured that Vasudans actually built small manufacturing bases in every system they entered to maintain fleet numbers. They would be hidden in asteroid fields, disguised as one (possibly Bosch's insperation) and cranking out fighters at a slow, but steady rate. I call these bases Tutankhamun Production Bases, but usually I just nickname them "Tut Huts." Just my idea on that.
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It seems to me that the first half of the TV war was more about manuevering than anything else, until eventually it turned into static war of attrition (world war one in space), although in the last 2 years of the war the rate of attrition on both sides was increased dramatically.
I could see the GTA sending a Leviathan through on a blockade run, but I couldn't see an Orion or Typhon being subjected to that sort of risk, no matter what gains could potentially be made by it. Destroyers of that era were far more valuable as fighter carriers than direct ship-to-ship weapons.
Maybe not. Blockades didn't carry the same weight in FS1 because both capital ships and bombers were far far less dangerous. There were no Helios bombs, no Cyclops bombs, no Mjolnirs, no BGreens. An Orion had 100,000 hitpoints, a Typhon has 120,000 , and without heavy beams or powerful bombs neither of these would be easy to take down.
We can still suppose the existence of a non-canon unfeatured Vasudan light carrier or something like that, but still, that would be quite odd.
We also know that Terrans and Vasudans had different advantages over one another. Terrans were better at weapons, Vasudans were better at propulsion. It is pretty clear to me that the Vasudans had intersystem drives on fighters, we did see Vasudan fighters using jump nodes on several occations in FS1, and I dont think that was an oversight. It explains how the Vasudans were in Ross 128 and no doubt many other Terran systems far behind the front lines, and also how they were able to hold on for so long despite Terran advantages in the beginning of the conflict. We should consider that Terran propulsion tech was in general significantly inferior to the Vasudans (see the differences between the Valkyrie and the Horus in terms of specs).
As for why they didn't give that tech to the Terrans before the end. They didn't at the beginning of the Great War because there was still significant amounts of mistrust between them. At about the middle most of their systems were conquered, their homeworld was about to be torched and no doubt a siginificant portion of their research infrastructure. We should also consider that Terran and Vasudan drive systems are sophisticated machines that have completely different designs, meaning that it takes time to reverse engineer how it works. That is why the Terrans didn't finish developing it until the very end of FS1.
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A lot of interesting assumptions here. I'm still reluctant to think that the Vasudans had no destroyer before the Typhon, and that the GTA had the upper on most of their space battles. I think an hypothesis we can make here is that contrary to GTA, Vasudans had proper bombs before the Great War. Remember what I said about the Amun destroying 3 Orions, which is highly unlikely without bombs. On the other hand the only bomber which is known to be used before FS1 is the Athena, and and it can't carry anything bigger than Phoenix-sized payload (Phoenix didn't even exist during the T-V Wars). So even with smaller fleets, much less efficient cruisers, and if we even admit they didn't have destroyers, it is absolutely believable that their bomber superiority enabled them to evenly fight the GTA. Especially when they can cover them with swarms of Anubis.
The Tuts Huts is also interesting, but a little far-fetched, don't you think ? How do you expect them to supply those bases ?
I also like the idea of Vasudans already having inter-system jumps for their fighters, but I don't really believe in it. Actually I don't see an Anubis having enough power output to sustain that kind of jump. Anyway with what I said above, slipping a Typhon through Terran blockades would be much more likely than slipping Orions behind Vasudans lines, but given the rarity of destroyers, it's not a credible option either. I think however that modified Vasudan freighters could carry fighters through nodes, or carry fighter parts, in order for them to be deployed/build behind enemy lines. And make those freighters run blockades would be pretty easy if you can distract the blockade ships with a good old big Typhon :)
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Yeah, I'd view the idea of Vasudans having intersystem fighter drives before their use at the end of the campaign as being extremely far-fetched. The command briefing when it was introduced seemed to state in no uncertain terms that neither Terrans or Vasudans had been able to pull it off before then. I think one can explain away the Vasudan ships apparently using intersystem nodes in a mission like Exodus by using some handwavium and stating that their vibrations were somehow "synced" with the freighters they were escorting...or, to use the far more likely out-of-universe explanation, that the mission designer at :v: forgot that they weren't supposed to be jumping in like that. :p
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*Harrumph*
Since most of what I was going to say has been fairly well-covered, I would simply propose that for a proper analysis of the TV war, some extrapolations and assumptions may need to be made. The biggest assumption would be the existence and usage of weapons and vessels that never actually show up in-game. The "old Angel scout fighter" and whatever ordinance Vasudan bombers were slinging easily come to mind, as does the Vasudans' precursor to the Typhon (which, admittedly, may be the Aten, of all things...)
One other thing- would it be too much of a stretch to consider Cardinal Spear as shedding some light on the war?
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but I don't really believe in it
Yeah, I'd view the idea of Vasudans having intersystem fighter drives before their use at the end of the campaign as being extremely far-fetched.
How is it far fetched? We saw it many many times in FS1, so often that I doubt it was an oversight.
I think one can explain away the Vasudan ships apparently using intersystem nodes in a mission like Exodus by using some handwavium and stating that their vibrations were somehow "synced" with the freighters they were escorting...or, to use the far more likely out-of-universe explanation
Actually that is an extremely far fetched idea, much more far fetched than their having intersystem jumpdrives. Why can't anyone accept the evidence in FS1? We never once saw a GTA fighter make ANY intersystem jumps, full stop, under any circumstances. Why else did the GTA ask the PVN (an organization they had just been at war with for more than a decade) to send fighters to escort the three shield prototypes (which were extremely valuable) if they could use "synched" subspace vibrations to do it themselves? Also, even though it has been a while since I played FS1 but didn't the PVN fighters (the ones that show up and blow the HoL fighter's cover) first enter the scene by coming in through the node?
EDIT: And I'll also add that they asked the Vasudans for help in transporting the shield prototypes through the node even though PVN units were defecting left and right to the HoL, making it a risky request since after all, how could the GTA know the fighters the PVN sent were actually the real deal?
that the mission designer at forgot that they weren't supposed to be jumping in like that.
Given that we see them do it 4 or 5 times I dont see how it is an accident. :P
EDIT2: And during Exodus at one pointed didn't some damaged Vasudan fighters jump in from Vasuda all by themselves after a wing of freighters came in, not escorting anything? You know, the guys who warn you about the ancient prophecies being true and that Shivan cruisers are coming.....
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I think one can explain away the Vasudan ships apparently using intersystem nodes in a mission like Exodus by using some handwavium and stating that their vibrations were somehow "synced" with the freighters they were escorting...or, to use the far more likely out-of-universe explanation
Yeah, that is much more far-fetched than inter-system jump drives.
How is it far fetched? We saw it many many times in FS1, so often that I doubt it was an oversight.
Do we really see that elsewhere than in Exodus ? Because I'm starting to be unsure, and I can't remember any other occasions. If it was only in Exodus, the hypothesis of oversight is defensible, but otherwise I think I'm gonna think like you do :p
Why else did the GTA ask the PVN (an organization they had just been at war with for more than a decade) to send fighters to escort the three shield prototypes (which were extremely valuable) if they could use "synched" subspace vibrations to do it themselves?
They didn't. Vasudans fighters were supposed to await them at the other side of the node, the ones that tried to "relieve"us before the node where HOL.
EDIT : About Cardinal Spear, well it doesn't contradict canon as far as I know, but it isn't canon either, neither is the TVWP, so we shouldn't consider them in this thread, only canonical sources I think.
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Do we really see that elsewhere than in Exodus
Yeah, that mission I referred to the PVN fighters entered the node along with the Terran freighters, that is confirmed. I THINK, but I don't recall for sure during "Where Eagles Dare" towards the end a bunch of Anubis fighters jump in, but I don't remember if they are coming in through the node. There really aren't that many situations where we could possibly see it, so the number of missions would be limited.
They didn't. Vasudans fighters were supposed to await them at the other side of the node,
I'm pretty sure they were supposed to await the Terran convoy when they reached the node and then escort them during the trip through subspace, not anytime before or after, which they did.
So that brings it up to 4 confirmed times that we saw it (3 in Exodus 1 during the shield convoy protection thingy) and 2 possible. And like I said, it also explains how they were able to go so far behind Terran lines and show up in places like Ross 128.
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I THINK, but I don't recall for sure during "Where Eagles Dare" towards the end a bunch of Anubis fighters jump in, but I don't remember if they are coming in through the node.
Ok you got me, I'm pretty sure they came from the node. So based on canon, I agree it is possible that Vasudans fighters had inter-system jump drives before the Terran did. Then I could argue that all the way from Vasudan-controlled system to Ross 128 is a pretty long way to do in the tiny cockpit of an Anubis for the tall Vasudans, but anyway...
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How is it far fetched? We saw it many many times in FS1, so often that I doubt it was an oversight.
Simple: The Terrans would have them too. There are no great technological hurdles to overcome in doing this. The Interceptor is a known fusion of Terran and Vasudan hardware. The Vasudans resorted to Terran primaries to fight the Shivans with. Systems integration is apparently not only possible, but relatively easy. Given the advantage being able to deploy fighters intersystem represents, there is every reason to believe if Vasudan fighters had the ability then it would have been the GTA's top priority to capture some and a successful reverse-engineering would have followed shortly.
So at best, the Vasudans had just developed the technology themselves as The Great War opened and exchanged it for Terran weaponry. The only missions that uneqivocally have an intersystem jump must be an arrival; any exit is suspect, as the player can make intrasystem jumps from inside a node area too. (Technically, arrivals are suspect too, because at least a couple FS1 missions have the player arrive very close to a node.)
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I think one can explain away the Vasudan ships apparently using intersystem nodes in a mission like Exodus by using some handwavium and stating that their vibrations were somehow "synced" with the freighters they were escorting...or, to use the far more likely out-of-universe explanation
Yeah, that is much more far-fetched than inter-system jump drives.
Okay, then feel free to ignore it; it's just a personal bit of handwavium off the top of my head for my own satisfaction. Let's consider what we actually do know, then. Kosh says we see Vasudan fighters make intersystem jumps "many times" in FS1, but I don't know of any concrete evidence to suggest that any of those occasions, except maybe one in Exodus, represents anything more than an intrasystem jump in the vicinity of the node. That's especially true when the fighters in question are Anubis-class...how would a fighter that's essentially a cheap mass-production model, one that doesn't even have an afterburner, possibly possess technology as sophisticated as that?
But I do agree that what we see in-game is the best source of evidence. My sole justification for denying the existence of intersystem fighter drives before the end of the campaign, and I think the only justification that one really needs, is the fact that the command briefing that introduces them treats them as a huge deal, as something that's never been possible before. Allow me to quote straight from the relevant briefing, from the mission "Reaching the Zenith":
This mission will be facilitated by the new subspace drive we have received. For years the GTA has tried to give a fighter the ability to do intersystem jumps. After monitoring the Beta Aquilae engagements, the GTA science colony at Sol has finally been able to solve the puzzle. All GTA fighters are currently being equipped with intersystem subspace drives.
According to that, the GTA has been working on this for years, with no success before this point. Does that sound like something they would have needed to do if the Vasudans had already developed such an ability? As NGTM-1R said, they would have simply captured an enemy fighter and reverse-engineered the technology. And from the Vasudans' perspective, why wouldn't they have shared this technology with the Terrans earlier in the course of the war, particularly right after Vasuda Prime was destroyed? They certainly had nothing to lose, and possibly much to gain, by doing so. On top of all of that, note that "monitoring the Beta Aquilae engagements," i.e. watching what the Shivans were doing, was what finally gave the scientists in Sol the last piece of the puzzle. If it was as simple as watching Vasudan fighters do the same thing, those scientists would have been set years ago.
When you sit down and read that command briefing, I don't see how anything else makes sense. What appear to be "intersystem fighter jumps" by Vasudan ships in the campaign are either intrasystem jumps or FREDder error.
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One other thing- would it be too much of a stretch to consider Cardinal Spear as shedding some light on the war?
Yes, it would be. I respect it for being the first to cover the time period, but I didn't think it was very good and a lot of what it did was limited by the tools available in FS1.
I think when it comes to the apparent use of intersystem drives by fighters, it might come about more as a problem with fighters ENTERING subspace, rather than LEAVING it. That might explain the fighters (destroyer/carrier dropped them off inside subspace). Maybe. Possibly.
I honestly think that it was a design mistake made before the final story (and the lack of the drives for the fighters) was completed. I also think that many of the designers thought that cruisers had fighterbays (at least one wanted one on a Cain for a mission). This might explain the extreme lack of carriers and how Vasudan fighters get around so easily.
I do have one last thought on why the war was such a stalemate for so long: It wasn't really much of a war for the bulk of it. And by bulk, I mean the first 10 - 12 years.
Ever play Civilization II? You'd be out exploring, come across some random civilization that would promptly declare war on you even though they were half a world away? You'd never see a single unit of theirs for hundreds of turns, and battles, if they happend at all, woudl be if your units just HAPPENED to come across each other.
I think this is how most of the 14 Year War was fought. Sure, they declared war early, but the actual FIGHTING almost never took place, not just for the early part, for MOST of it. It was only in the last few years that we see any serious fighting at all. This would explain odd names (Aldebaran Encounter, Vega Engagement), and also why the Vasudans held off the Terrans for so long: They just plain never fought them. There were battles, of course, rare, but they happened, and they were good sized, but never big enough to consititute the kind of war we see in FS1 and FS2. Once they were over, it could be months before the two sides ran into each other again.
Except on the ground, where they probably still had the heaviest fighting of the war. The space war, however, was a yawn. It was probably more like the navel war of World War I, which really didn't do much of anything outside of ONE big battle. Then nothing ever again.
All this would explain some oddities we see. Vasudans in Betelguese and Ross 128 because they had colonies there that the GTA didn't find right away, Terrans colonizing Regulus, and the NTF making Sirius one of the core systems. Also remember that the GTA had only been in interstellar space for about 7 years before the 14 Year War started, which is a pitifully short amount of time to expand through this small corner of the galaxy. Add on another 10 years, though, that's more than enough time to build sizable colonies outside of Sol, ones big enough to withstand losing Sol at the end of FS1.
The war didn't actually get hot and interesting until the Vasudans deployed the Typhon, and they probably only did it after they were sure they could take on an Orion. And even building the Typhon was probably not something they needed to rush to build, so it would explain the absence of a PVN destroyer and why the GTA just simply roll over the Vasudans: Neither side knew where the other was, and neither was really looking either.
Still makes for a damn boring war/campaign. I still prefer my original stuff for that.
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The Terrans would have them too
Why?
There are no great technological hurdles to overcome in doing this
I also disagree. The Interceptor missile is a Vasudan engine with a Terran warhead strapped on top of it, and generally a very simple device. Subspace engines are more complicated, because even if they could reverse engineer it they still had to design a new component to be compatible with existing engines using whatever materials the Terrans had. Reverse engineering does not happen overnight.
As NGTM-1R said, they would have simply captured an enemy fighter and reverse-engineered the technology.
Depending on how different it is, that could actually take years. Even then that assumes they were able to capture a drive intact. We should also keep in mind that Terrans in FS1 did not really understand how subspace works at all, which probably explains their difficulty in reverse engineering it.
Kosh says we see Vasudan fighters make intersystem jumps "many times" in FS1, but I don't know of any concrete evidence to suggest that any of those occasions, except maybe one in Exodus
There were 3 in Exodus, and 2 in the shield convoy mission. That's 5 times confirmed. I consider that to be "many". :P
If it was as simple as watching Vasudan fighters do the same thing, those scientists would have been set years ago.
Because it wasn't just that simple. They has been watching Vasudan fighters for years, which probably allowed them to get as far as they did. They couldn't really watch the Vasudans do it anymore because the PVN was devastated.
The only missions that uneqivocally have an intersystem jump must be an arrival
Good point, but Exodus has them coming in and out.
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Kosh says we see Vasudan fighters make intersystem jumps "many times" in FS1, but I don't know of any concrete evidence to suggest that any of those occasions, except maybe one in Exodus
There were 3 in Exodus, and 2 in the shield convoy mission. That's 5 times confirmed. I consider that to be "many".
Real swell of you to cut off the second half of that sentence, which is where I make the entire point I was stating. Oh, and you still haven't addressed the majority of my post that presents the strongest evidence against your position.
As NGTM-1R said, they would have simply captured an enemy fighter and reverse-engineered the technology.
Depending on how different it is, that could actually take years. Even then that assumes they were able to capture a drive intact. We should also keep in mind that Terrans in FS1 did not really understand how subspace works at all, which probably explains their difficulty in reverse engineering it.
Do you really think it would take years to reverse-engineer something that's essentially the same piece of technology Terrans have been using for a few decades, just miniaturized? They're not re-inventing the wheel here. And how do the Terrans "not really understand" how subspace works when the intelligence entry on it describes it in detail? Again, they've been making intersystem jumps for a few decades, and intrasystem jumps for significantly longer. They know what they're doing.
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The T-V War has been ongoing for 14 years and the tech room notes at least one case of blatant technological theft (the Scarab), and you spend several of your early missions stopping another. FS2 makes it clear that the technological hurdles are small. GTVA ships used standardized weapons, of which at least one is cooked up within the timeframe of the game. Terran spies amongst the Vasudans are mentioned outright in a mission briefing. Burning them so easily means they're obviously commonplace. There is absolutely no reason to believe subspace drives have something special or unique about them that would defy analysis.
This is also the bunch that was able to reverse-engineer a Dragon (even in a very crappy state) within the space of a few missions, and Shivan shields (when totally unfamilar with Shivan technology!) within in a similar timeframe, for both groups. Saying they can't handle a technology of familar form and function for years when they've just gone and developed working shields from totally unfamilar Shivan technology in about two weeks is bullcrap.
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The GTA had been working on shields before the Shivans arrived though. The description for the MX-50 states that it was useless when tested against deflector arrays at Ross 128, and this was at the start of the campaign.
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The GTA had been working on shields before the Shivans arrived though. The description for the MX-50 states that it was useless when tested against deflector arrays at Ross 128, and this was at the start of the campaign.
We have no real evidence that "deflector array" refers to something that could ever be slapped on a fighter, though; that phrase isn't exactly descriptive. I feel safe in saying that Shivan shield systems were something completely different. Remember the lab cutscene?
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Not really. Its been a while since I played the FSPort. I do remember the scientists being amazed that the shield held.
And here's some rampant speculation. Its entirely possible that the GTA deflector arrays were designed as protection against missiles, bombs, or asteroids, and not energy weapons. The Vasudans had bombs during the T-V War, and its possible the GTA wanted something that could protect their destroyers against Vasudan bomber strikes. As to them not being mounted in FS1, they were prototypes, and may have been buggy, energy-intensive, or taken up a great deal of space, possibly requiring an all-new class of destroyer, which the GTA didn't have time to design before the Shivans came. If the T-V War had lasted longer, the GTA might have had a shielded destroyer, although it probably would have been extremely light on offensive firepower and would most likely be relegated to a carrier/command role. And as to FS2, beams got developed, and it wouldn't be worth it to carry a massive destroyer-sized shield generator when beams fired by a lowly cruiser would just go right through the shields.
//end speculation
No, a Terran deflector array may not have been able to be slapped on a fighter, but the tech description does indicate that the Terrans did have some experience with energy screens. How much of it is applicable to fighter shields, I'm not sure.
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That would explain how fast they managed to adapt Shivans' shields.
possibly requiring an all-new class of destroyer, which the GTA didn't have time to design before the Shivans came.
Why do I think Hades here ? :D
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No, a Terran deflector array may not have been able to be slapped on a fighter, but the tech description does indicate that the Terrans did have some experience with energy screens. How much of it is applicable to fighter shields, I'm not sure.
Remember, though, you're basing any assumptions on that experience on only two words in a single weapon's tech description. The theme of Shivan fighter shields as being something completely new and different is carried across several missions, a command briefing or two, and even a cutscene. There's far more evidence to suggest that this was something the GTA hadn't seen before than to insinuate that they had.
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I have a suspicion that the Ross 128 deflector array was some form of captured Shivan equipment, part of an experiment being carried out by the GTI. We know the Shivans are very protective of their technology, which might have been why Riviera was attacked with such force.
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Like I said, Terran experience may have been with destroyer-sized energy screens, and said screens may have been based purely on absorbing kinetic impacts such as missiles, bombs, and asteroids. So Terran knowledge may have been about massive destroyer-sized shields that are completely useless against laser and plasma weapons, and Shivan knowledge is about tiny fighter-sized shields that render lasers and plasma weapons nearly impotent. Considering the differing areas of knowledge, Shivan shields may have been a completely new technology, because the Terrans were focusing on large arrays designed to counter bombs, not small ones designed to counter lasers.
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Makes it a slight coincidence that at around the same time Ross 128 came under attack by the Shivans...
Most technologies were developed in Sol, why would the deflector array research be sited way off in Ross 128?
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You could be right about the GTA deflector screens being captured Shivan shields. Or you could have the research so far away in order to minimize the risk of espionage by the Vasudans. I will say that your explanation is much more likely though.
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Remember, though, you're basing any assumptions on that experience on only two words in a single weapon's tech description.
That's more than we have in a lot of cases.
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Remember, though, you're basing any assumptions on that experience on only two words in a single weapon's tech description.
That's more than we have in a lot of cases.
Yes, but not in the case of Shivan fighter shields. Which is kind of my whole point. :p
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That's more than we have in a lot of cases.
The problem is here it's set against a full command briefing and a cutscene.
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The T-V War has been ongoing for 14 years and the tech room notes at least one case of blatant technological theft (the Scarab), and you spend several of your early missions stopping another. FS2 makes it clear that the technological hurdles are small. GTVA ships used standardized weapons, of which at least one is cooked up within the timeframe of the game. Terran spies amongst the Vasudans are mentioned outright in a mission briefing. Burning them so easily means they're obviously commonplace. There is absolutely no reason to believe subspace drives have something special or unique about them that would defy analysis.
Ok so what is your explanation?
It's also possible this technology was more closely guarded than the others. We don't know how long it took the Vasudans to develop the Scarab, and to be honest the tech thievery seems to be rather one sided, at least as it is presented in FS1. Here's another question, if they could reverse engineer everything they encounter then why are Vasudan engines, on average, better than Terran ones?
And how do the Terrans "not really understand" how subspace works when the intelligence entry on it describes it in detail?
It was in the Freespace reference bible. Of course they get the general idea of it, but many of the details they don't fully understand.
That's especially true when the fighters in question are Anubis-class...how would a fighter that's essentially a cheap mass-production model, one that doesn't even have an afterburner, possibly possess technology as sophisticated as that?
Perhaps an afterburner was orginially intended for it but was removed to make room for the intersystem jump drive. A wing of Anubis fighters isn't much of a threat to a couple Apollo's, but behind your lines harrassing convoys they can be a real nuisance. The Anubis doesn't strike me a being particularly largein terms of volume, this was likely because of deficiencies in Vasudan manufacturing.
This is also the bunch that was able to reverse-engineer a Dragon (even in a very crappy state) within the space of a few missions,
They didn't reverse engineer anything for those few missions, all they did was simple refits, even then it was still barely functioning.
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It's also possible this technology was more closely guarded than the others. We don't know how long it took the Vasudans to develop the Scarab, and to be honest the tech thievery seems to be rather one sided, at least as it is presented in FS1. Here's another question, if they could reverse engineer everything they encounter then why are Vasudan engines, on average, better than Terran ones?
Again, if the GTA is willing to burn their spies so easily, they must be able to afford to. The PVN is riddled with them. As for the engines; Moving target. The Vasudans think propulsion better. It plays to their particular research strengths so they will typically be a step ahead...for a few months, then it normalizes again, then they pull ahead again, and so on.
They didn't reverse engineer anything for those few missions, all they did was simple refits, even then it was still barely functioning.
You're arguing that Terrans can't use Vasudan drives because of systems integration issues, since arguing they can't use them because they can't get their hands on them is extremely unlikely considering that the drives are of no practical use unless used in combat and even a simple scan of the ship would be easy enough to obtain and provide most of the necessary clues. Capture is even more likely. The Terrans are the ones with a dedicated capture weapon, after all, and they were using it on Vasudan targets early on. It's one of the first weapons you're given.
Systems integration issues are exactly what they would have had to conquer to get the Dragon to work since completely ripping out all existing Shivan bits and replacing everything but the hull itself would have taken considerably longer, and probably not have resulted in an effective disguise. (It also wouldn't have caused the problems you encounter in-mission in Playing Judas.) Even working as poorly as it did, encountering another sentient and very alien race's technology and even being able to do that kind of retrofit job is extremely impressive. The Terrans have had 14 years to familarize themselves with Vasudan technology and consider its capture important enough to develop and widely issue a weapon specifically designed to get ahold of more of it. They know its ins and outs, its quirks, the way it does things. There is absolutely no reason to believe that they couldn't just copy and install Vasudan-type drives even if they didn't understand how they actually worked, but the odds they would understand it are extremely good anyways.
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The PVN is riddled with them.
This is based on?
Again, if the GTA is willing to burn their spies so easily, they must be able to afford to.
Or they could have simply been double agents. At this point in the war neither side looked like they were going to win, so there is every possibility the spies were hedging their bets. Besides, tech theft doesn't happen "all the time" in real life, sometimes your spies get lucky and sometimes they don't.
Another possibility is the Vasudan drives used some kind of subspace trick or property that the Terrans simply weren't aware of.
It plays to their particular research strengths so they will typically be a step ahead...for a few months, then it normalizes again, then they pull ahead again, and so on.
This assumes the GTA is able to consistently steal Vasudan tech,
There is absolutely no reason to believe that they couldn't just copy and install Vasudan-type drives even if they didn't understand how they actually worked,
Any real life examples of this kind of thing?
The Terrans have had 14 years to familarize themselves with Vasudan technology and consider its capture important enough to develop and widely issue a weapon specifically designed to get ahold of more of it.
And I have no doubt some of that actually happened, it is entirely possible the refitted engines of the Valkyrie were based on pirated Vasudan designs, although they were still inferior to the originals.
And with subspace drives, there is a real danger because if your drive malfunctions when trying to enter subspace, who is to say it wouldn't destroy the ship/fighter? This is like trying to design a nuclear reactor based on whatever you could steal about it without any knowledge of the physics behind it, if it doesn't work exactly right you're in for a real problem. Weapons and normal engines are much simpler because they don't mess with the fabric of the universe, which makes them much easier to steal.
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This is based on?
The following sentence.
Or they could have simply been double agents. At this point in the war neither side looked like they were going to win, so there is every possibility the spies were hedging their bets. Besides, tech theft doesn't happen "all the time" in real life, sometimes your spies get lucky and sometimes they don't.
You don't burn your agents like that, ever, in reality. You come up with a cover story. You just don't tell anyone how you got the information. Whatever. If the GTA is willing to timestamp their agents that easily, then they must have them to the point they're actually trying to waste them.
Or their guy was actually aboard the Vasudan transport that was captured, so burning him wasn't an issue since they'd also had an extraction plan already in place. That, however, doesn't seem very likely.
I can cite god knows how many instances of China stealing the design of whole weapons systems or weapons platforms in the last fourteen years, most of them Russian. We're talking about one measly little drive part part here.
Another possibility is the Vasudan drives used some kind of subspace trick or property that the Terrans simply weren't aware of.
Something we have absolutely no reason to assume.
Any real life examples of this kind of thing?
Explain to me, in detail, how you typed up this post, how your computer interpreted it, and all the steps necessary for it to get to my screen. Every day, you will use at least a dozen devices whose workings you do not understand.
On a larger scale, people can build devices whose workings they do not fully understand (were your electronics perhaps made in China or Taiwan?). One does not need to know how something works to build it, only a set of directions. The function of the parts can be a mystery. This is why reverse-engineering a device isn't very hard in practice. You don't need to know how it does what it does, only what it uses to do so.
And with subspace drives, there is a real danger because if your drive malfunctions when trying to enter subspace, who is to say it wouldn't destroy the ship/fighter? This is like trying to design a nuclear reactor based on whatever you could steal about it without any knowledge of the physics behind it, if it doesn't work exactly right you're in for a real problem. Weapons and normal engines are much simpler because they don't mess with the fabric of the universe, which makes them much easier to steal.
The Russians actually did that with their first class of nuclear submarines, which used a cut-down Pressurized Water Reactor-1 design. This turned out to be a bad decision in the end because the cut-down meant removing most of the radiation shielding, and a sterling example of why you should copy something you don't understand exactly.
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And with subspace drives, there is a real danger because if your drive malfunctions when trying to enter subspace, who is to say it wouldn't destroy the ship/fighter? This is like trying to design a nuclear reactor based on whatever you could steal about it without any knowledge of the physics behind it, if it doesn't work exactly right you're in for a real problem. Weapons and normal engines are much simpler because they don't mess with the fabric of the universe, which makes them much easier to steal.
But they know the physics of subspace drives...they've been making intersystem jumps for decades. The only obstacles to creating a working intersystem drive for fightercraft before FS1 were the limited available size and power output available in those types of ships. The mechanics of performing a subspace jump, whether intrasystem or intersystem, are exactly the same for a Hercules as they are for an Orion. If the Vasudans really had figured out a way to solve the miniaturization and power issues before now, it would have been a simple matter of pulling some plug-and-play on a few captured jump drives, and the GTA would have been in business. Instead, they had to wait until studying Shivan ships performing intersystem jumps before they were able to perfect them themselves.
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The only obstacles to creating a working intersystem drive for fightercraft before FS1 were the limited available size and power output available in those types of ships.
Which is why it would require an extra trick or two in order to make it work, supporting that theory.
The Russians actually did that with their first class of nuclear submarines, which used a cut-down Pressurized Water Reactor-1 design. This turned out to be a bad decision in the end because the cut-down meant removing most of the radiation shielding, and a sterling example of why you should copy something you don't understand exactly.
My point exactly. It's entirely possible the GTA had some working prototypes that ended up malfunctioning, causing them to go back to the drawing board to figure out exactly what that last trick is.
Explain to me, in detail, how you typed up this post, how your computer interpreted it, and all the steps necessary for it to get to my screen.
Depends on how much detail you want, or should I spare you the explanation? :p
Every day, you will use at least a dozen devices whose workings you do not understand.
True, but then again I don't try to design them either.
On a larger scale, people can build devices whose workings they do not fully understand (were your electronics perhaps made in China or Taiwan?).
Depending on the type of device they were often given pre fabricated circuit boards, soldering training, the parts, as well as instructions on where to put them.
Something we have absolutely no reason to assume.
And there's no reason to assume otherwise, based on what we have seen. Subspace is something that works totally different from what we have now.
, and the GTA would have been in business
Yeah, just like that Russian sub. :p
If the Vasudans really had figured out a way to solve the miniaturization and power issues before now, it would have been a simple matter of pulling some plug-and-play on a few captured jump drives,
I understand your point, but if it used a subspace effect or principle they weren't aware of to go around the power issue then wouldn't replicating it be that much more difficult?
The mechanics of performing a subspace jump, whether intrasystem or intersystem, are exactly the same for a Hercules as they are for an Orion.
The general idea is, but the limitations of power on the Hercules makes it so that in order to make intersystem jumps another method must be found. In real life there is actually an example of this, the warp drive. 10 years ago it was physically impossible until a team of physicists from Baylor university found a way to make it happen (theoretically), even though it does the same thing it uses newer ideas in physics (such as dark energy and string theory). It still requires something like 10^45 joules to make it work, but according to they will keep working on it to greatly reduce the power requirements to a more managable level. Now, if you weren't aware of dark energy or didn't know much about it, then that kind of miniaturization is quite difficult.
I can cite god knows how many instances of China stealing the design of whole weapons systems or weapons platforms in the last fourteen years, most of them Russian.
I think we can safely assume both the PVN and GTA had better security than the Russians (post Soviet Russians anyway). I also imagine given the much wider gulf between the two species that spying would be reduced somewhat as well, that being said I fully admit that on occation major piracy will happen. Actually we can use that to explain what took the GTA so long to make the Valkyrie, they needed to steal better engines. :p
EDIT: Also we should consider that the US and China are not at war, and actively trade with eachother. Wouldn't that make spying much easier?
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Well, it might not be only a problem of miniaturisation. Some technologies (especially in Explosive and Energy production) need a certain critical mass, which hampers to create "small effects" . To produce the same effect with lower critical mass, you might want a completely different tech.
To take an example, A-bombs. It blows up when you reach a critical mass, that critical mass decreasing with pressure. You cannot make a bomb smaller (in energy produced) than size X with a "Gun" type of trigger (which is based on increasing the critical mass), you can go as small as Y < X with a "Implosion" (which relies on increasing the pressure).
Producing less energy than Y took a long time and completely different technologies, namely H-bombs or H/A bombs. Maybe the Humans discovered the Subspace Engine equivalent of the A bomb for their Cruisers and Destroyers, while Vasudans just developped another way to create the same effect with less minimum mass.
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The only obstacles to creating a working intersystem drive for fightercraft before FS1 were the limited available size and power output available in those types of ships.
Which is why it would require an extra trick or two in order to make it work, supporting that theory.
"Tricks." Exactly. Not rewriting the whole subspace book, not coming up with a completely different device, but "tricks." Which is completely in keeping with what I've been saying.
If the Vasudans really had figured out a way to solve the miniaturization and power issues before now, it would have been a simple matter of pulling some plug-and-play on a few captured jump drives,
I understand your point, but if it used a subspace effect or principle they weren't aware of to go around the power issue then wouldn't replicating it be that much more difficult?
Yes, that might be the case in that sort of situation, but as has been stated before, there's not one iota of evidence in-game that this is what's going on. If you're making a general claim like this that seemingly contradicts, or at least is counterintuitive to, what we're told in-game, the burden of proof falls on you to produce good evidence for it. And since nothing within the games suggests that subspace jumps function differently depending on the size of the ship in question, I don't think there's any real way that one could construct such a proof on solid ground.
And no, "But there's no evidence against it!" isn't good enough; if it was, the Shivan BBQ theory would be completely valid. :p
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"Tricks." Exactly. Not rewriting the whole subspace book, not coming up with a completely different device, but "tricks." Which is completely in keeping with what I've been saying.
You would need a different device in order to take advantage of it.
Yes, that might be the case in that sort of situation, but as has been stated before, there's not one iota of evidence in-game that this is what's going on. If you're making a general claim like this that seemingly contradicts, or at least is counterintuitive to, what we're told in-game, the burden of proof falls on you to produce good evidence for it
It's certainly a much more reasonable than anything else I've been hearing here. Of course we there isn't direct evidence because the game is not about technobabble (which in this situation is rather unfortunate). This explanation is based on the aforementioned example of the warp drive and the experience some physicists have been having in developing it.
And since nothing within the games suggests that subspace jumps function differently depending on the size of the ship in question,
The fact that intersystem jumps didn't work on anything smaller than a freighter would indicate otherwise. :p
I don't think there's any real way that one could construct such a proof on solid ground.
Again, there wasn't enough technobabble to definitively determine it one way or another. That leaves us trying to find a best fit explaination.
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And since nothing within the games suggests that subspace jumps function differently depending on the size of the ship in question,
The fact that intersystem jumps didn't work on anything smaller than a freighter would indicate otherwise. :p
The game pretty much states outright that this is a function of the power output required for intersystem jumps, and the subsequent size of the power systems required to make them; before the discovery, you simply couldn't cram that sort of thing onto a fighter. It doesn't involve a radical new set of subspace physics.
I don't think there's any real way that one could construct such a proof on solid ground.
Again, there wasn't enough technobabble to definitively determine it one way or another. That leaves us trying to find a best fit explaination.
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Your whole argument is predicated on the idea of Vasudans having fighter intersystem drives before their announced discovery in the campaign, which is hardly a "best fit" to what happens and which I've never seen anyone else seriously espouse before. So what really fits best? :p
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and which I've never seen anyone else seriously espouse before.
Says alot about their creativity doesn't it? :p
The game pretty much states outright that this is a function of the power output required for intersystem jumps, and the subsequent size of the power systems required to make them;
Yes which in turn made it so that anything smaller than a freighter couldn't do it.
It doesn't involve a radical new set of subspace physics.
Perhaps it would if you wanted to go around the power problem.
Your whole argument is predicated on the idea of Vasudans having fighter intersystem drives before their announced discovery in the campaign,
The entire campaign was from the GTA's point of view, and so based on this I speculated the announcement was limited to the GTA.
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Says alot about their creativity doesn't it? :p
Well, he's wrong, I've noted the jumps in Exodus before.
But actually, it says more about your willingness to make an endless series of ad-hoc assumptions to sustain your viewpoint by now. :P
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Says alot about their creativity doesn't it? :p
Well, he's wrong, I've noted the jumps in Exodus before.
I didn't mean that no one's noticed those particular jumps, only that no one else had jumped to the radical conclusion of the Vasudans actually having working intersystem drives for fighters. :p
But actually, it says more about your willingness to make an endless series of ad-hoc assumptions to sustain your viewpoint by now. :P
This is it, really. While it may be true that nothing in-game explicitly states, "Kosh's idea is flat-out wrong," that isn't enough to automatically make it valid, as there's a substantial amount of evidence that casts very strong doubt upon it. As this thread has progressed, you've come up with a number of different counterpoints and responses to what I've drawn from in-game text, to the point where it feels like most of your argument is founded on your own ideas, as opposed to evidence from the game. That's perfectly fine if you're coming up with the plot for a new campaign, but it doesn't do so well if you're trying to draw conclusions from said in-game material.
Your whole argument is predicated on the idea of Vasudans having fighter intersystem drives before their announced discovery in the campaign,
The entire campaign was from the GTA's point of view, and so based on this I speculated the announcement was limited to the GTA.
Yes, as a pilot for the GTA, you as the player obviously come at the events of the campaign from a GTA viewpoint, but that doesn't preclude knowledge about Vasudan activities, or about events which directly impact both species; there's never really a point after the cease-fire when you're completely stuck with the GTA's point of view. The player learns about the aftermath of the Lucifer's attack on Vasuda Prime immediately after it happens, just as the Vasudan fleets presumably would, and everyone is informed of the Vasudan scientists stranded on Altair at the same time. Weapons which we see Vasudan fighters using are only shown after they've been announced to you as the player, indicating cross-species adoption; hell, one command briefing explicitly states that the Avenger is being mounted "on every Terran and Vasudan fighter in the galaxy." The joint Ulysses project is another good example, as is the Interceptor missile. In fact, when you stop and think about it, pretty much every tech-related update over the course of the campaign is something that's intended to be used by both species; there's no evidence at all to suggest that the intersystem drives would be an exception.
And speaking of this sort of thing, there's something I touched on earlier that I should have recognized as particularly damning evidence against the idea of the Vasudans concealing the intersystem drives. Remember the lab cutscene, where the new shield prototype was shown being tested? It shows a Terran and Vasudan scientist working together on the project, on a timescale that has to be within a month, if not within two weeks, of the announcement of the cease-fire and non-aggression treaty between the GTA and PVE. Within that short timespan, Terran and Vasudan researchers are already collaborating (and very successfully at that) on a top-level project, something that's essentially crucial for the survival of both species. If they're able to orchestrate that level of collective trust so quickly, and given the additional fact that the Terrans offered up the Avenger to the Vasudans as soon as it was ready, why wouldn't the Vasudans do the exact same thing with a theoretical intersystem drive? This is especially true after the destruction of Vasuda Prime: there's no conceivable reason in the universe why they'd bother with such measures of secrecy at that point, given the fact that they literally had nothing else to lose.
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Let's not forget people, that it's FAR, FAR harder to spy on an alien race wiht which you're involved in a genocidal war.
No plastic surgeryy wil lhelp you look like a vasudan. The only way to spy on vasudans is by using vasudans spies, and their loyality is at best, questionable...that's assuming you'd even be able to find one willing to work for you.
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Let's not forget people, that it's FAR, FAR harder to spy on an alien race with which you're involved in a genocidal war.
The T-V Wars is no genocidal war. There probably was racism, surely, but it first originated from misunderstanding, which is easy to understand given that the two species evolved without anything in common. Even if there is no evidence, I think it's pretty possible that Terran and Vasudans civilians were in contact.
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I don't think it was ever made 100% clear whether it was the Terrans and Vasudans at war or the GTA and PVE. I always assumed it was both races in their entirety.
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The GTA is presented as being a rather autocratic government, at least in some respects, and the PVE is, obviously enough, an empire, so I don't know that there would really be any functional difference between those two entities.
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I doubt there would be any difference, but there would have to be for spies to be feasible. Honestly, it's not like a human can learn to speak Vasudan and infiltrate their military. In order for spies to be effective, you would already have to have civilians living on each other's planets. Since the war broke out soon after contact, that seems unlikely as well.
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Spies do not need to belong to the race they are spying for. The existence of Japanese spying efforts in the United States in WW2 more or less proves the point.
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Spies do not need to belong to the race they are spying for. The existence of Japanese spying efforts in the United States in WW2 more or less proves the point.
True. But it's quite a bit easier for a Japanese spy to infiltrate the US than, say a human spy to infiltrate Vasuda Prime. You know, the whole "different species" thing would probably force espionage to be a little more indirect.
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Why not? When I say there was a Japanese spying effort in the US, you have to realize that the people who were spying were very obviously not ethnic Japanese because the US government had moved all ethnic Japanese people to internment camps.
People spy for four reasons. Money, Ideology, Conscience, Ego. We have every reason to believe those could be just as valid for a Vasudan, and there is assumed to be pre-war and even during-war contact. They like money, they like the way Terrans think, they think trying to dominate other sentient races is wrong so they tip those races off about attempts to dominate them or whatever, or they enjoy the power of a spy and the high-risk lifestyle.
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No, it's far less likely. We aren't talking countries here, we're talking SPECIES. Wiht little contat and war going between them.
Only in sci-fi do humans betray their whole race easily.
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Only in sci-fi do humans betray their whole race easily.
And you have direct evidence of this, how? :p
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Only in sci-fi do humans betray their whole race easily.
Any betrayal of an individual is a betrayal of the race. It's the same bonds. You're making a distinction without a difference.
Besides, that doesn't say anything about the Vasudans.
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Often people can justify their actions. McCarthy thought he was doing the right thing I.E. conscience. They could justify their actions as trying to prevent loss of life by leveling the playing field. They could be opposed to the war and justify their actions as trying to stop or prevent the conflict.
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McCarthy did what he did because he know the shivans were coming.
Being a whole different species adds another barrier to cross for a potential traitor. Actualylm nore than one.
I'ts very different from betrying a country in a regular war. If you betray your country, you can allways go living in another country, among people. Or go live in a country you betrayed to.
When it comes to a conflict between alien species, you cna't realyl do that. Your own homeworld will be destroyed or enslaved, and no member of your own race will want to have anything to do with you.
And you will never live as equal on an aliens world... not to mention that you would stand out like a friggin christmas tree.
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That was his justification for turning traitor, but it's hard to tell if his actions had any effect. It didn't keep the GTA from putting him on trial for treason. What about the Hammer of Light. They betrayed their race because they believed the Shivans would usher in a new era. There would be a good example of idealogy as a reason for betraying your race. In both McCarthy's and the HOL's eyes they were not betraying their race but trying to do what they considered to be the best thing for their race. There is a certain amount of ego involved in these cases because they thought they knew what was best for their race. In McCarthy's case he happened to be right. A spy might not consider his actions to be a betrayal of his race.