Hard Light Productions Forums

Modding, Mission Design, and Coding => FS2 Open Coding - The Source Code Project (SCP) => Topic started by: Killfrenzy on May 08, 2002, 11:24:35 am

Title: *Sigh*
Post by: Killfrenzy on May 08, 2002, 11:24:35 am
Well, it's all well and good that V have released the source code, but those of us (like me) who have really cool ideas for things are totally screwed for several reasons:

1) We don't have a cat's chance in hell of being able to understand the code within an appreciable timescale - if ever

2) If we're desperate for something to be done, we have to go to somebody else. They're probably clogged up with other requests, so nothing gets done.

3) Some of us are programming illiterate and cannot learn to a good degree.

And as for myself? I can't get hold of the source code because the servers are jammed. Why am I not in the least bit suprised? :rolleyes:

What I'm trying to say, is that the source code release may be christmas come early for people, there are those like me who can't even get models to work, let alone attempt to add brand new stuff.....:( :(
Title: *Sigh*
Post by: LAMBO on May 08, 2002, 11:40:50 am
(http://freespace.volitionwatch.com/blackwater/nial03.jpg)

Shadup, there's already been alot of changes made, just a short time after it's been released.  Basically you're angry at volition for not teaching you to program?
Title: *Sigh*
Post by: Killfrenzy on May 08, 2002, 11:43:47 am
No, I'm saying that not everyone is a genius with far too much time on their hands. An idiot's guide to the code which explains the main functions would be good.

Some of us actually have lives outside of FreeSpace, incredible as it may seem.......:rolleyes:
Title: *Sigh*
Post by: penguin on May 08, 2002, 12:15:03 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Killfrenzy
No, I'm saying that not everyone is a genius with far too much time on their hands. An idiot's guide to the code which explains the main functions would be good.

Some of us actually have lives outside of FreeSpace, incredible as it may seem.......:rolleyes:
Unfortunately, there's no easy answer, for a few reasons:In other words, we're pretty much all in the same boat.  I was writing code before most of the people on this board were born (sad but true), and I still can't get the damn thing to compile on Linux :mad:

I feel your pain.  I can't mod worth a damn.  So if I want to create a new ship, I either ask someone to do it for me, struggle with it myself (with mediocre results), or find something else to amuse me.  If it was really really important to me, I guess I'd learn it, but I don't expect that to happen overnight, nor without some serious effort on my part.

But an "idiot's guide" would be a good idea, for novices and veterans alike.  But it's not going to write itself, and most of us coders have lives outside of FreeSpace as well ... :p
Title: *Sigh*
Post by: Inquisitor on May 08, 2002, 12:35:22 pm
I'm confused?

You're mad at us because we know something you don't? Or that we manage to learn to read C++ and still have lives outside of video games?

Or did you think by telling us we have no lives, that that would sweet talk us into programming something for you?

See why I am confused?

Seriously, grab GCC, grab the CVS release that compiles under GCC and grab a "Learning C++ in 21 days" book for 20 bucks from Sams publishing.

Follow the lessons, get "Hello World" to compile and see if you can make the GCC build compile. If you can run the compiler, you stand a good chance of at least being able to follow what's going on, and maybe do cool things like follow that fighter beam tutorial. All it is, is cut and paste in the right place ;)

Then you'll be alot farther along ;) Lots of good books out there, and knowing something about C++ isn't exactly an utter waste of time :)

On another note, anyone tried running one of those code documentation proggies on this source? Doxygen or something?
Title: *Sigh*
Post by: Mysterial on May 08, 2002, 01:33:20 pm
I understand your anger, Killfrenzy, but an "idiot's guide to the code" isn't going to help you if you suck at programming. Some people simply do not have the ability to do it. For example, I simply cannot do any graphical art. Of any kind. At all. It makes me furious when I think of all the neat games I could make if I could draw to go along with my programming skill, but that's the way it is. You have to either find a way around it (generally you ask somebody else to do it for you) or you give up and try something else. I mean, what do you want us to say? "Put code here to make a cool weapon"?
Title: *Sigh*
Post by: Stryke 9 on May 08, 2002, 01:35:41 pm
Coders owe the non-coders nothing.

I don't know how to program to any great degree either (I only learned enough to know that I'd be perfectly happy to never see code again). So, when I need something, I make a trade-off or summat with someone who can't do what I can do and can do what I can't, or ask nicely. I don't treat the character animators like ****, either, just because they do something I can't at the moment. Don't be a tit- nobody's keeping secrets or hijacking the code. You can't act on any "cool ideas" yourself if you don't knpow how to handle the code, and you certainly can't get anyone else to work for you if you're trating them like your personal slaves. There's no really simple way to code directly.

Ask nicely if you want something dumbed down, don't act like someone's ripping you off or something. Everyone's excited about the code, and people are posting stuff as soon as they find it. Chill or I'll have to find something pointier than the Dead Frozen Goat of Justice to calm you down with.
Title: *Sigh*
Post by: Unknown Target on May 08, 2002, 01:59:41 pm
Hey I'm fine with no source.
I'm making a campaign, and there most likely won't be an source code editing, at all.
That's right, probably zippo.
The reason this is so is because, 1)None of my staff (including me) know how to program.
and,
2)It's a tremendous waste of manpower.

What I'm doing is trying to do things without the source, like planets, tanks, SAM sites, etc (yes, that is all possible without any editing of the code)
So, basically, either learn how to program, or cope without it.

I'm done.;)
Title: *Sigh*
Post by: Killfrenzy on May 08, 2002, 02:09:58 pm
I wasn't having a go at anybody - all I was saying is that some people are capable of learning things like C++. I've tried to learn all sorts of things - hell, I can't even get my head around BASIC, but I DO understand how FreeSpace and FreeSpace 2 think. That I am proud of and it's enabled me to create tbl mods.

Inquisitor, I'm not in the US so I can't get that book you're on about. And a link to those other things you mentioned would be good.

I've finally managed to persuade the thing to download, so I'm going to see if I can make head or tail of it......

BTW - if anybody wants to hear my ideas for a brand new game, then ask. It's been rolling around for a while, and now the tool has become available.

You may have noticed that I don't hang around much. That's because these days I feel as welcome as Hitler at a World Conference of Judaism. I'm a lone FreeSpacer now, with my own ideas. Even when I try to get help I'm told that 'oh no, you need to get 13453 other programs first.'

I finally got a decent version of trueSpace (v. 5.1) only to be told that anything I make in there, can't work with FS. So imagine how I feel that a pile of (what I think are) good ideas that I have can't be made because I can't make them, and that I don't trust people to make them for me - they either never get round to doing it, or do it and then take all the credit.

I'm probably the only member of the community who feels like this, so a shoulder to lean on would be appreciated - especially somebody who is a modeller. I would one day like to see the VS Tomoe Hotaru beat the crap out of something, with the 147th Raptors in Gencore Phoenixes providing fighter support.......
Title: *Sigh*
Post by: Unknown Target on May 08, 2002, 02:23:11 pm
There there....
*hands killfrenzy a hankie*
Blow your nose, yes.....
;)
Title: *Sigh*
Post by: Mysterial on May 08, 2002, 02:55:42 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Killfrenzy
So imagine how I feel that a pile of (what I think are) good ideas that I have can't be made because I can't make them, and that I don't trust people to make them for me - they either never get round to doing it, or do it and then take all the credit.


At least in this part I can share your pain. My big dream is to have a game all my own that I coded all by myself, but games don't happen without pretty pictures these days, and I can't do them, don't know anybody locally, and don't have enough trust in anyone else.
Title: *Sigh*
Post by: Killfrenzy on May 08, 2002, 02:58:47 pm
Oh boy, I could spend HOURS looking at this code...........it IS C++ isn't it?
Title: *Sigh*
Post by: Sandwich on May 08, 2002, 03:00:32 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Killfrenzy
I'm probably the only member of the community who feels like this....


Have you ever heard of the saying: "You are unique, just like everybody else."?

It applies here. If there is a single person on the boards who can do everything he wants to be able to do concerning FS - tables, modelling, programming, sound FX, rendering, etc - then you get a jar of cookies. Me, for example. I can edit tables, render, model and write missions. No sound talents, nor do I have an inkling about programming. Oh, and paths? Hah! Don't make me laugh.

I have a gazillion cool ship ideas too, but I can't get them into FS on my own. At first I didn't even have anything more then rudimentary knowledge of modelling, no texturing capabilities whatsoever, and converting to POF was Greek to me. So I read everything, asked all the people who knew better than I did, and eventually got a nice looking box into FS. Had I wanted turrets on my box I would have had to enlist someone's help, but it looked similar enough to a Borg cube (well, maybe not specifically  Borg cube, but a cube nonetheless!) that it probably would have scared off any potential attackers I might have given it.

Bottom line is, we all are here, among other things, to learn. SOme have more to learn, some less. But just because you don't know something isn't a reason to give up. Perserverence is good, so go for it! :)
Title: *Sigh*
Post by: Martinus on May 08, 2002, 05:36:46 pm
Sandwich has it nailed down pretty good.

If something is important enough to you then give it a try, if it seems like more trouble than it's worth then it probably wasn't such a great idea in the first place.

Regarding the TS 5.1 issue. I've made mistakes like that in the past, perhaps not so costly but I learned from that experience that research is well worth the time and effort.

Don't get mad or even. Get smart :nod:
Title: *Sigh*
Post by: Stryke 9 on May 08, 2002, 06:12:59 pm
KF- nobody DID pay attention to me when I was tripping on TAC, did they?

Practically everyone now has ideas that have little or nothing to do with FS. That's not why you're feeling on your own- more than anything else, you're feeling that way because you aren't very nice to the people you want things from.

Anyway- nobody takes credit for stuff that's not their idea. If they do, you call 'em out- simple as that. Not having TS isn't an issue, and never was- I don't have a copy, should I get my TC together before the user FreeSpace comes out I'll get TS1, hey?

In essence, you honestly can't do everything, and you've gotta find someone reliable to do quite a lot of stuff for you, make everything big a cooperative effort. I, for one, would be an example of someone who "never gets stuff done" because my computers are about as stable as Hannibal Lecter. It happens- if it's something that you can't wait for, you go elsewhere.
Title: *Sigh*
Post by: Sandwich on May 08, 2002, 07:32:19 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Maeglamor
Don't get mad or even. Get smart :nod:


As we say in Hebrew: "If brains don't work, use force. If force doesn't work, use more force. If more force doesn't work, be violent."

Uhhh... :nervous: *runs*

:p
Title: *Sigh*
Post by: Razor on May 09, 2002, 04:55:53 pm
It is hard, but what do you need from math to write in C++?
Title: *Sigh*
Post by: DTP on May 09, 2002, 06:05:34 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Razor
It is hard, but what do you need from math to write in C++?


You don’t need to understand advanced math, but you need to understand the basics of math, like addition, subtraction, multiplication and division. And if you understand does, then you basically understand math.

What you also need to poses is a good logical understanding. Any PC is fundamentally running on logic. 1 and 0`s

It is just if you want to learn C++ you need to learn what all these Symbols like || and == and = and & and && and += means, and believe me they are all representing some logical meaning.

You also need to learn about SCOPE, that’s all these {} signs you see.

Don’t go ahead and start to learn c++ by jumping into the abyss by learning MFC (Microsoft Foundation Code), because if you do and you don’t understand the basics then you will hit a brick wall, the moment you look at it.

Start by learning simple c++(lend a book at the library), create simple programs, and from then on, advance.

Remember, a language defines the way we think.

For reference, it took me the good part of a year to learn all of basic 2.0 on the Commodore 64, but by then I had a god understanding of how to build programs, and a good understanding of what variables is & how to manipulate them, etc.

Basic 2.0 was however a real-time translated (translated to the 1`s and 0´s) program (no compiler there) that was very slow on a ½ mhz machine like the C64 was. So I jumped to machine code or mnemonics.

The 286 IBM machines present at the time where too expensive for my parents and me, like 35000 / 7 = 5000 US$.

The thing is, all of you who want to learn c++. Be prepared that you are going to spend an incredible amount of time on learning all of what you need, in order to program what you want.

Remember you don’t need to know every detail of c++ in order to write good programs.
Title: *Sigh*
Post by: Inquisitor on May 09, 2002, 06:11:10 pm
You do kinda, need to understand some more advanced math for games ;)
Title: *Sigh*
Post by: penguin on May 09, 2002, 08:30:41 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Inquisitor
You do kinda, need to understand some more advanced math for games ;)
When I took Linear Algebra in college I thought I'd never ever use it... who cares about transformation matricies, dot-products, and spherical coordinates?

Heh, glad I didn't sell the textbook at the end of the term, it's on my desk all the time now, between the OpenGL Reference Manual and Herb Schildt's C++: The Complete Reference

BTW The Herb Schildt book is an excellent reference, and good for anyone who wants to learn C++; I highly recommend it (ISBN 0-07-882476-1)
Title: *Sigh*
Post by: Inquisitor on May 09, 2002, 08:42:17 pm
Not to mention all the physics :)

Physics for Game Developers is a good O'Reilly book, btw ;) I still had my physics books form college, but, they are huge, and they suck :)
Title: *Sigh*
Post by: NotDefault on May 09, 2002, 08:46:08 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Stryke 9
Coders owe the non-coders nothing.


:nod::yes:
Title: *Sigh*
Post by: CP5670 on May 10, 2002, 01:22:50 am
I have been doing as DTP said so far; just building several simple test programs and taking small steps forward in terms of complexity. Still a beginner, but at least I am getting somewhere. :D The problem is that I don't have the MSDN libraries that explain all the functions and their properties. :(

Does the Linear Algebra stuff become useful for programming? I am more of a calculus and number theory oriented guy, with only a little bit of knowledge with matrix stuff, so I would need to learn more of that. Also, spherical coordinates are very nice, especially non-vector spherical equations. ;7 (although they use too many greek letters)

I still have the classical physics / mechanics stuff fresh in my mind since the exam is coming up in less than a week. :p
Title: *Sigh*
Post by: Mysterial on May 10, 2002, 05:12:09 am
Quote
Originally posted by CP5670
The problem is that I don't have the MSDN libraries that explain all the functions and their properties. :(


You mean the Win32 API functions? I have a help file that lists the functions and what they do if that'll help you.
Title: *Sigh*
Post by: Unknown Target on May 10, 2002, 06:21:32 am
I think the reason we all MOD is for the non-coders to have the chance to make their own game.
For instance, I've always wanted a space game with some ships that I thought looked cool in it, so I MOD FS2, and I get that result;)
Man, I can think of a couple awesome sims I want to program, but can't :(
Title: *Sigh*
Post by: penguin on May 10, 2002, 11:53:26 am
Quote
Originally posted by CP5670
The problem is that I don't have the MSDN libraries that explain all the functions and their properties. :(

It's all on line, you just have to dig a little...

Go to http://msdn.microsoft.com and hit "MSDN Library."  Then open up those annoying outline thingies for "Windows Development" and "Win32 API"  You might also need the runtime library reference, which is there somewhere as well.
Title: *Sigh*
Post by: EdrickV on May 10, 2002, 02:05:42 pm
Some of the code isn't actually that hard to understand. Some of it is confusingly weird (like the MFC wizard junk in FRED2's code) and some of it would be gibberish to programming newbies, and me. (The assembly. :)) I'm going to look into fixing is-tagged, making it possible to have two FS2 exes with different launcher settings (with a simple custom launcher for the modified one) and other stuff.
Title: *Sigh*
Post by: CP5670 on May 10, 2002, 02:49:20 pm
Quote
Go to http://msdn.microsoft.com and hit "MSDN Library." Then open up those annoying outline thingies for "Windows Development" and "Win32 API" You might also need the runtime library reference, which is there somewhere as well.


I looked on that site a few times but couldn't really find anything pertaining to that, but the site was really big and confusing, so I must have missed it. :p :D Basically I just wanted the help files and documentation for VS6. (when I try any of the help options, it says that I don't have some "MSDN collection" installed, which I assume came on seperate CDs; I only have the main one) Anyway, thanks; I will look through that again and see if anything comes up.

Quote
You mean the Win32 API functions? I have a help file that lists the functions and what they do if that'll help you.


My one programming dream is, aside from making the ultimate game, to make a 3D/4D equation graphing program that supports hardware acceleration, implicit plots, multiple coordinate systems and all the special functions in one package. Might actually be feasible in a few years if I get more into this stuff. ;)
Title: *Sigh*
Post by: penguin on May 10, 2002, 08:56:01 pm
Quote
Originally posted by CP5670
I looked on that site a few times but couldn't really find anything pertaining to that, but the site was really big and confusing, so I must have missed it. :p :D Basically I just wanted the help files and documentation for VS6. (when I try any of the help options, it says that I don't have some "MSDN collection" installed, which I assume came on seperate CDs; I only have the main one) Anyway, thanks; I will look through that again and see if anything comes up.
 

The user guides for visual studio 6.0 and visual c++ 6.0 are up there as well.  You have to slog past all the "Visual Studio .NET" crap to find it :rolleyes:

Quote
My one programming dream is, aside from making the ultimate game, to make a 3D/4D equation graphing program that supports hardware acceleration, implicit plots, multiple coordinate systems and all the special functions in one package. Might actually be feasible in a few years if I get more into this stuff. ;)

Ah, then you would be more interested in DirectX (also at the MSDN site) than the raw Win32 API.  Or check out OpenGL, which is more platform independent, but is strictly 2D/3D graphics, whereas DirectX gives you keyboard/joystick/mouse input, sound, etc.  But check out http://www.opengl.org  anyhow, there's a lot of good links about 3D programming there.  I am in the process of adding OpenGL and Linux support to FS2, we'll see what happens with that.

Let me know when you have FreeSpace: 4D done :D

:doubt: I really hate to p1mp MS's site and wares so much, but they do make a darn fine IDE, especially the debugger.  I only wish MSVC  was ANSI C++ compliant...  (... and portable to Linux ... and free ... :lol: man, I crack myself up sometimes)
Title: *Sigh*
Post by: CP5670 on May 11, 2002, 01:38:55 pm
Thanks a lot for the information; I am going to check out those sites more later today. :) I think the reason I could not find the VS stuff earlier was that, as you said, there was just the VS.NET stuff all over the place and subscription ads for some MSDN magazine. :p

So far the best program I have made is a basic Notepad-like text editor, so I am still a beginner, but I want to try to get more into 3D stuff. If I can get a program to display a static tetrahedron using D3D or OGL, it would be a great achievement. :p :D
Title: *Sigh*
Post by: penguin on May 12, 2002, 09:44:44 pm
Quote
Originally posted by CP5670
Thanks a lot for the information; I am going to check out those sites more later today. :) I think the reason I could not find the VS stuff earlier was that, as you said, there was just the VS.NET stuff all over the place and subscription ads for some MSDN magazine. :p

So far the best program I have made is a basic Notepad-like text editor, so I am still a beginner, but I want to try to get more into 3D stuff. If I can get a program to display a static tetrahedron using D3D or OGL, it would be a great achievement. :p :D

Check out NeHe's OpenGL tutorials at http://nehe.gamedev.net/.  An excellent place to start, lots of example code, all commented; most of it is very clearly annotated on the site.  

(Very minor *****: when I was starting out, I was a little irritated that it is very Windows-centric, and I develop primarily on Linux.  But if you're using Windows, you should be find this very useful.  VC++ project files, etc. are distributed with most of the lessons.)

BTW The tutorial to display a cube & pyramid is lesson 5  :)  Pull out your geometry book and you can probably change the pyramid to a tetrahedron without too much trouble ;)