[IceFire]

Wow...definately all sounds exciting.  I know this isn't going to be anywhere close to an overnight affair but it does sound like a fantastic project.  I'd just thought I'd throw in a kind word and a show of support!

[RandomTiger]

Maeglamor: Not looking for a test subject, want a whole update pack. Just cos no-ones going to do it doesnt stop me from wanting it.

Venom: Trading, interesting idea, I may think about that in the future when I get cable access back.

I would just like to stress that this project I am working from is based on the original FS2 source. This is not a fs2_open exe and therefore does not have any of the good work done to help out MOD'ers. Why? See explanation above, but any work I do here puts fs2_open closer to having HT&L itself.

Finally dont get excited yet, there may be months or work to go but thanks for the support everyone.


EDIT: Remember HT&L on its own won't actually make anything look much different anyway.

[Sesquipedalian]

Will HT&L on its own make it faster?  If so, that's all I need to consider it worthy of praise.

[IPAndrews]

Originally posted by RandomTiger
I would just like to stress that this project I am working from is based on the original FS2 source.

I think you've made a very good decision there. I'm very excited about the work you're doing. This is the most promising news to come from the FS2 community in some time. I'd like to thank you and wish you the best of luck. I too would be interested in knowing what kind of speed increases you're seeing if any.

[RandomTiger]

Originally posted by IPAndrews


I think you've made a very good decision there. I'm very excited about the work you're doing. This is the most promising news to come from the FS2 community in some time. I'd like to thank you and wish you the best of luck. I too would be interested in knowing what kind of speed increases you're seeing if any.

Wont expect to see any difference until the object rendering is sorted out....

[RandomTiger]

Space sims are very well suited to HT&L, a load of static shapes that are translated and rotated with a few nice effects thrown in. However freespace is not structured to take advantage of this.

The object vertex lists are put together at the last moment and are rendered in groups of 3 or 4 triangle fans. In the pof file points come with a number of normals since each point is used in multiple polys and requires a different normal depending on which poly it is in.
This is terrible for HT&L, what I will probably do is convert the polys into triangle lists which will take up more space but not to the point were even a low spec gfx card should have too much trouble. The advantage of this way of doing it means we can setup the vertices once, in a big list at load time and send them off to the gfx card and never need to directly change them again. Since most ships only have one texture most lists can be rendered all at once instead in batches of 3 or 4, with the exception of ships with rotating subcomponents. This is where I hope to get a significant speed gain.

[RandomTiger]

Currently freespace has its own lighting code in which it lights vertex by vertex carrying out all these complicated equations in our CPU which our GPU’s are designed for. In HT&L from our point of view lighting will work object by object. Fortunately V have programmed it well enough for us to make use of the higher level lighting code. 3D scenes can only have so many lights (8) so before each object is rendered the closest and most significant lights are determined and 8 (or less) of these are used to light an individual object. Theres a slight complication with this because beams emit light but theres no such thing as a line light so the closest point between the line and object / vertex is found and that is used.

When full HT&L lighting is in there will be a lot of interesting material and lighting options but without a editor to set them with they will have to just be set to a reasonable default for the time being.

When getting all this done I may bump up the effect of lighting, when I put in the special pause feature I accidentally didn’t reset the lights which meant lights where applied multiple times and in my opinion and others it actually looked a fair bit better with the extra contact between objects in and out of direct light.

[RandomTiger]

Quick note to cause a bit of outrage, I have removed texture sectioning from the code. I could put it back I guess but I dont plan to anytime soon.

This means your cards max texture size must be as wide as your resolution. ie your max texture size must be at least 1024.

So generally anything as good as a TNT is OK. But Voodoo owners will not be happy.

[Kazan]

oh btw, when it comes time to create the new pof  format with triangle strips i'll help design the format, and make it so POF Constructor Suite can handle it (it'll be Forking POF CS)

[KARMA]

Originally posted by RandomTiger
Quick note to cause a bit of outrage, I have removed texture sectioning from the code. I could put it back I guess but I dont plan to anytime soon.

This means your cards max texture size must be as wide as your resolution. ie your max texture size must be at least 1024.

So generally anything as good as a TNT is OK. But Voodoo owners will not be happy.

ehm...
btw, why?

[RandomTiger]

They got in my way

[IceFire]

Correct me if im wrong, but isn't this the same process that helps with background bitmaps and making them look less like the circular skybox they are painted on?  (for instance, divide by 4 for most planets so that they look circular rather than oval?)

[RandomTiger]

Originally posted by IceFire
Correct me if im wrong, but isn't this the same process that helps with background bitmaps and making them look less like the circular skybox they are painted on?  (for instance, divide by 4 for most planets so that they look circular rather than oval?)

Im not sure what you've talking about. As far as I know texture sections are simply used to display textures bigger than 256. I've taken them out because Im restructuring the texture module and they were making life difficult.

At the end of the day they could always be put back in and remember fs2_open is always here and back compatiable and I suspect if it ever goes HT&L Inquisitor will insist voodoo owners (if there are any left) are thought of.

[KARMA]

mm but it means that it won't work at all with voodoos or just slow?

[Flaser]

This is the most significant and important project going on IMHO, because this is what will be able to give FS a very new look and return it to the mainstream gaming community - and even turn some heads at a certain corporation. Managgers go for looks and survey statistics...

If you plan on reforming the pof format I think supporting a genrally higher poly-count would be a bless.
With that models could be vastly impoved - even if based on textures, with extrude and such we could actually create a whole bunch of details in the crafts. - a whole range of detail levels would be introduced I guess.

Is this sub-project (pof reformation) has any effect on ships with moving parts, it would be another bless if ships with more moving parts (like thrusters) would be supported...this is only a wish just like the rest.

[RandomTiger]

Originally posted by KARMA
mm but it means that it won't work at all with voodoos or just slow?

Just wont work, if there's enough demand I guess I might put it back.

I know not everyone is loaded but:

TNT2 £20
ATI Radeon 7000 £30
nVidia GeForce 4 MX440 £40

Half life 2, Deus Ex 2 and Doom 3 are coming out, who-ever you are whatever you have its obviously time for an upgrade.

I have no plans to reform the pof format at the moment.

[Nico]

so, it would be about choosing between better graphics ( your project ) and new options ( SCP ) ?

[mikhael]

Originally posted by Venom
so, it would be about choosing between better graphics ( your project ) and new options ( SCP ) ?

If I'm understanding him right, Venom, RT wants to get the graphics core updated, clean and stable THEN he wants to bring the SCP mods/options up to date on the new system.

Think of it like a campaign loop thing.

[redmenace]

Inquisitor, RT, Goober, Bobboua, Phreak
maybe the best thing to do is just add each and every new feature in to the build one at a time. and test in between each new feature or improvement. for that pesky CTD bug. We beta testers stand ready to test for the crashes. I suppose this wouldn't be very hard considering we have written working code and fixed multiple bugs already. All this of course after you get the engine overhauled. AND PLEASE NO ONE MENTION GEO MOD OR WE WILL ALL BEAM YOU.

[mikhael]

That reminds me... Hey, RT can you do me a favor?


Can you PUTS IN TEH GEOMAD!!!!11!!11? LOLOLOLOL.


See, redmenace, if you didn't keep bringing it up...