Author Topic: Scripting and drama and omg  (Read 10147 times)

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Offline karajorma

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Re: Scripting and drama and omg
Seriously mjn, why are you trying to make this into an argument? I never said you were a poor modder and I doubt Nuke said it either.
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Offline niffiwan

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Re: Scripting and drama and omg
Quote
Lastly, if you bump MAX_RED_ALERT_SUBSYSTEMS or SUBSYSTEM_MAX then the new pilot files are incompatible with the old ones, old pilots will probably crash FSO on loading unless you add code to handle both old and new values.
I take it's all regarding the main branch. What about Antipodes 8? Would pilot code problems mentioned also apply to the new pilot code, or does it allow increasing those values with minimal problems?

From a 10 min read through the Antipodes 8 code, I think this problem has been removed.  The new approach is to write the number of used items (weapons/subsystems/etc) into the pilot campaign file, then read that number back and use it to determine how much data to read from the file.   So while you still have a subsystems limit, the pilot file shouldn't break / be invalidated when this is changed.
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Re: Scripting and drama and omg
After over a year of scripting without taking a look at the FSO code I can say one thing: It's discouraging. Bad documentation and hard to guess results of many functions, unknown connection to other (usually known) FSO bugs and such stuff made me perceive many issues as bugs ("tons of them") that aren't. Since I started coding cause
The reason I got into C++ coding was that I wanted a feature and got bored of waiting for the SCP to add it.
I found only a few issues that are truly related to scripting code.

About all the possible modding skills including scripting - no one can learn everything and be really good at it. That's why bigger mods usually consist of a team rather than one person.
While knowing how to script makes this a great addition to being good in FRED it isn't necessary (and the other way round, I'm pretty bad at freding  ;)). When I look at what scripts are being released many of them are general purpose and rather easy to use. There have been a few requests in the scripting forum that were answered by nuke or m!m creating such a script. I think it should be the goal to make most scripts that way which helps everyone who can't script.
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Offline Nuke

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Re: Scripting and drama and omg
what happens a lot is a scripter goes in and adds a lua function to access some new feature. then there is a bugfix or a major overhaul of some system, and its very easy to overlook scripting when doing those, especially when you dont have a very large userbase submitting scripting related bug reports.

the last paragraph pretty much sums up my #1 problem when it comes to modding. i have to do every damn thing myself. in the olden days you wanted a ship you needed one model one texture and a couple tables, that swelled to a few models, several textures, several tables, and a bunch of other stuff. way too much stuff for one man. nuke does not play well with others.
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Offline Dragon

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Re: Scripting and drama and omg
From a 10 min read through the Antipodes 8 code, I think this problem has been removed.  The new approach is to write the number of used items (weapons/subsystems/etc) into the pilot campaign file, then read that number back and use it to determine how much data to read from the file.   So while you still have a subsystems limit, the pilot file shouldn't break / be invalidated when this is changed.
Sounds like my idea will become more viable when this is commited then. If you need feedback, I've been using the new pilot code for a long time now, pretty much for everything (thanks to The_E providing updated builds with it to BP staff), and I haven't had a single issue with it yet. :yes:
I guess I'll remind you about this idea when Antipodes 8 gets into trunk.

 

Offline mjn.mixael

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Re: Scripting and drama and omg
Seriously mjn, why are you trying to make this into an argument? I never said you were a poor modder and I doubt Nuke said it either.

You have failed to address that more important part of my post. Of which, I doubt you have a good answer for.

the last paragraph pretty much sums up my #1 problem when it comes to modding. i have to do every damn thing myself. in the olden days you wanted a ship you needed one model one texture and a couple tables, that swelled to a few models, several textures, several tables, and a bunch of other stuff. way too much stuff for one man. nuke does not play well with others.

See? I was right. We should learn script so that nuke doesn't have to help us anymore. Good philosophy for a community.
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Offline karajorma

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Re: Scripting and drama and omg
You have failed to address that more important part of my post. Of which, I doubt you have a good answer for.

If you want to have a rational, sensible discussion about how to be a better modder, I'm more than happy to respond. But if you're going to put words in my mouth and act like I haven't treated you with the respect you deserve, when I've gone out my way to try to make sure I haven't said anything that could be construed as disrespectful, I don't see much point in it. It's just going to give you more ammunition to claim I'm somehow saying you're a poor modder.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2012, 10:42:09 am by karajorma »
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Offline Iss Mneur

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Re: Scripting and drama and omg
See? I was right. We should learn script so that nuke doesn't have to help us anymore. Good philosophy for a community.
Huh?  So Nuke speaks for all of SCP...?  For all of Hard Light...?
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Offline Spoon

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Re: Scripting and drama and omg
I can't say I really disagree with him though. I suspect that some of the stuff people like Axem do with SEXPs, would be done with scripts if people like him knew the scripting engine better. While they can be done with SEXPs, they can be done more easily in lua. It's similar to the way that I add things to the code now, that years ago I'd have figured out how to do in FRED, simply because it's easier than doing it in FRED.

Did I need to learn how to code in order to be a good FREDder? **** no! Has it made me a better FREDder? **** yes! As far as I know, there isn't anyone who FREDs, scripts and codes (although it looks like Axem is taking some steps to become the first). Would learning how to script make me a better FREDder? **** yes it would! In fact, this entire thread is making me realise that I've made somewhat of a mistake leaving the scripting up to other people when I should have learned how to do it myself.
Well I do disagree.
If your definition of FREDing is nothing more than setting up (complex) events then I'm sure scripting will help to some degree. But learning scripting isn't going to make anyone better at mission design, or all those other little things that come with making a mission. I for one think that Battuta has a much better grasp at mission design than most of us here. But I don't see him coding or scripting.

I think its kinda detrimental to the community to have this mentality of "if you want something done, do *everything* yourself." (even if for the most part that is exactly what ive been doing). Especially when you've got excellent scripters like m!m and Admiral MS etc around. Or a guy who makes these awesome art things like mjn.mixael. There's a pretty good reason why the game industry has specialists assigned to one task they excel at. Learning extra disciplines is for the most part only going to substract from the time you can spend on getting good at your other talents. (Well its cool if you wanna be a jack of all trades I guess)

That's my two euro cents on it.
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Offline The E

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Re: Scripting and drama and omg
Quote
I think its kinda detrimental to the community to have this mentality of "if you want something done, do *everything* yourself." (even if for the most part that is exactly what ive been doing). Especially when you've got excellent scripters like m!m and Admiral MS etc around. Or a guy who makes these awesome art things like mjn.mixael.

This. A thousand times this. There's room for "generalists", who can do a lot of things more or less equally well, and there's room for specialists. There is no reason for one side to get angry at the other, or even suggest that one side is Doing It Wrong.
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Offline karajorma

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Re: Scripting and drama and omg
Well I do disagree.
If your definition of FREDing is nothing more than setting up (complex) events then I'm sure scripting will help to some degree. But learning scripting isn't going to make anyone better at mission design, or all those other little things that come with making a mission. I for one think that Battuta has a much better grasp at mission design than most of us here. But I don't see him coding or scripting.


And are you seriously going to tell me that Battuta's impressive grasp on mission design comes from his grinding out mission after mission in FRED and has absolutely nothing to do with his spending years on improving as a story writer? It's precisely his diversified skill set that makes him a good FREDder.
If instead of talking about scripting, Nuke has said that attending a writer's seminar would improve my FREDding, I might have agreed just as strongly. Are you telling me you wouldn't?

Quote
I think its kinda detrimental to the community to have this mentality of "if you want something done, do *everything* yourself."


Where am I saying that one person has to do *everything* though? I guess I've not made this clear but I'm talking about learning the fundamentals so you know exactly when to leave it to one of the experts. I know absolutely nothing about scripting right now. I couldn't write a "Hello World" script in lua. When I had to use script-eval in a Diaspora mission, I had to ask Axem how to do it. Knowing how to do it myself would obviously mean I had a better grasp of how to use scripting in my missions, automatically making me better than I was before.

Quote
Especially when you've got excellent scripters like m!m and Admiral MS etc around. Or a guy who makes these awesome art things like mjn.mixael. There's a pretty good reason why the game industry has specialists assigned to one task they excel at. Learning extra disciplines is for the most part only going to substract from the time you can spend on getting good at your other talents. (Well its cool if you wanna be a jack of all trades I guess)

Again, it depends on the skill level you have already, and the skill level you want to attain in the new skill. I'm already a good FREDder. I don't think it's arrogant for me to say that much at least. :p Spending 10 hours more on FREDding would improve my overall skill set by only a tiny amount. Spending the same 10 hours on scripting would give me a reasonable understanding of the basics, giving me lots of new tools I could use in my FREDding and allowing me to ask people like m!m and Admiral MS for a script to do exactly what I want in scripting terms rather than in vague English.
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Offline Spoon

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Re: Scripting and drama and omg
Well I do disagree.
If your definition of FREDing is nothing more than setting up (complex) events then I'm sure scripting will help to some degree. But learning scripting isn't going to make anyone better at mission design, or all those other little things that come with making a mission. I for one think that Battuta has a much better grasp at mission design than most of us here. But I don't see him coding or scripting.

And are you seriously going to tell me that Battuta's impressive grasp on mission design comes from his grinding out mission after mission in FRED and has absolutely nothing to do with his spending years on improving as a story writer? It's precisely his diversified skill set that makes him a good FREDder.
If instead of talking about scripting, Nuke has said that attending a writer's seminar would improve my FREDding, I might have agreed just as strongly. Are you telling me you wouldn't?
Sure, I totally said or implied that! Battuta does nothing but grind out missions all day everyday after all!  :wtf:

And I am again going to strongly disagree with you here, being a good story teller has very little to do with being a good mission designer. If anything, those two skills tend to compete rather than cooperate. As game history has proven plenty of times, gameplay can seriously suffer when a writer wants to tell a story using a game. And likewise the other way around when strong gameplay leaves little room for telling a great story. Battuta may be a good writer and a good FREDer, but I really don't think he is a good FREDer BECAUSE he is a good writer. He does however combine those both skills to good effect in some of his last missions I've seen.
In the same vein, I like to consider myself to be a FREDer/mission designer of some esteem and as I'm sure Droid803 would gladly atest to, I ain't exactly the best of writers.  :p

I understand the point you are trying to make but you seem to be banging mostly incompatible skillsets together and claiming that by learning to fly a jetfighter you'll automatically become a better busdriver.

Where am I saying that one person has to do *everything* though? I guess I've not made this clear but I'm talking about learning the fundamentals so you know exactly when to leave it to one of the experts. I know absolutely nothing about scripting right now. I couldn't write a "Hello World" script in lua. When I had to use script-eval in a Diaspora mission, I had to ask Axem how to do it. Knowing how to do it myself would obviously mean I had a better grasp of how to use scripting in my missions, automatically making me better than I was before.
I dunno
Quote
In fact, this entire thread is making me realise that I've made somewhat of a mistake leaving the scripting up to other people when I should have learned how to do it myself.
That kinda seemed to imply otherwise.

Again, it depends on the skill level you have already, and the skill level you want to attain in the new skill. I'm already a good FREDder. I don't think it's arrogant for me to say that much at least. :p Spending 10 hours more on FREDding would improve my overall skill set by only a tiny amount. Spending the same 10 hours on scripting would give me a reasonable understanding of the basics, giving me lots of new tools I could use in my FREDding and allowing me to ask people like m!m and Admiral MS for a script to do exactly what I want in scripting terms rather than in vague English.
Sure I'll give you that.
However, that doesn't seemed quite what nuke was on about to me. I'm more getting the impression that he meant "Learn to script so you can stop bugging coders because you can just script it yourself!". And that is just bull****.
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[02:42] <@Axem> spoon somethings wrong
[02:42] <@Axem> critically wrong
[02:42] <@Axem> im happy with these missions now
[02:44] <@Axem> well
[02:44] <@Axem> with 2 of them

 

Offline karajorma

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Re: Scripting and drama and omg
I understand the point you are trying to make but you seem to be banging mostly incompatible skillsets together and claiming that by learning to fly a jetfighter you'll automatically become a better busdriver.

I'll leave it for Battuta to say what does or doesn't make him a great FREDder.

Quote
Where am I saying that one person has to do *everything* though? I guess I've not made this clear but I'm talking about learning the fundamentals so you know exactly when to leave it to one of the experts. I know absolutely nothing about scripting right now. I couldn't write a "Hello World" script in lua. When I had to use script-eval in a Diaspora mission, I had to ask Axem how to do it. Knowing how to do it myself would obviously mean I had a better grasp of how to use scripting in my missions, automatically making me better than I was before.
I dunno
Quote
In fact, this entire thread is making me realise that I've made somewhat of a mistake leaving the scripting up to other people when I should have learned how to do it myself.
That kinda seemed to imply otherwise.

I was speaking for myself. I didn't mean everyone has made that mistake or I would have said that.

Quote
Sure I'll give you that.
However, that doesn't seemed quite what nuke was on about to me. I'm more getting the impression that he meant "Learn to script so you can stop bugging coders because you can just script it yourself!". And that is just bull****.

I'm saying learn enough about scripting so you know *when* to bug the coders and *when* to bug a scripter. I suspect Nuke was saying something similar. I doubt he meant everyone should learn scripting, that's just hyperbole that's been taken way too literally. I think he just meant that everyone should learn when to use scripting.

The idea that everyone should learn to script is ridiculous. But the idea that everyone should make complicated structures that they then have to transfer to every single mission because they don't want to use a script (theirs or someone else's) is also ridiculous, and there's a ****load of that going on still.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2012, 10:54:05 pm by karajorma »
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Offline General Battuta

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Re: Scripting and drama and omg
I still use a lot of copy-and-pasted large SEXP blocks because I can't control LUA well enough via the events editor to have it do everything I want.

 

Offline karajorma

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Re: Scripting and drama and omg
Sounds like something we should make an effort to improve then. :)
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Offline Nuke

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Re: Scripting and drama and omg
See? I was right. We should learn script so that nuke doesn't have to help us anymore. Good philosophy for a community.

i never said that. i always read the scripting board and modding boards scanning for things that i can help with. if someone brings up something i know about il pitch in with scripting (or modding) advice, and if you catch me on a good day i may even write some script for you or help you with your own scripts. just because im not on your mod team does not mean that i haven't done anything for the cause. im not about to bail from the freespace community just because i dont like to join mod teams and dont really generate much content these days, and most certainly not because a few people disagree with the way i do things or find my advice useless. im here because i believe in the cause and want to see it progress and im willing to put up with a few asshats if need be.

we all want to see the engine advance and be the best mod platform we can make it. just because i prefer to be a generalist isnt hurting your mod. just because i offer the suggestion that a thing would be better implemented with scripting instead of bothering the coders about it isnt gonna make the community collapse. its your time your putting in so use it as you see fit. i have my concerns about feature creep, and i certainly have my concerns about the under utilization of scripting in favor of code side features (and really just that, if you accomplish a complicated feature with 1337 fredding skills, good for you for not bothering the coders with it). after putting in so much time and effort to help improve scripting and promoting its use its quite disappointing that im being met with so much hostility when i suggest that more people learn scripting.

I still use a lot of copy-and-pasted large SEXP blocks because I can't control LUA well enough via the events editor to have it do everything I want.
Sounds like something we should make an effort to improve then. :)

thats kind of a thing i think scripting would handle quite well. you can essentially stick your events into a text block and simoply have lua parse it all to events when the mission starts. so you can load a large number of events with a single script eval. this would centralize the feature and facilitate event reuse. there are some issues where the format that scripting likes to read events from differes from the way they are stored in the mission file, so there would be some parsing code (lua really shines with text manipulation). this is one of those cases where i wish i was a better fredder so i could give you a more solid framework for how to accomplish that.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2012, 11:41:57 pm by Nuke »
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Offline Spoon

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Re: Scripting and drama and omg
Quote from: nuke
its quite disappointing that im being met with so much hostility when i suggest that more people learn scripting.
Maybe its because that's all you ever do.
99% of your posts either have "Already done that with scripts years ago" or "You can do that with scripts" or "You should learn to script" in them. Did you seriously never noticed this yourself? At some point it stops being 'helpful friendly advice' and just becomes annoyingly preachy.

You also seem to have the need to be concerned about how modders are 'bothering' the coders with 'needless feature requests'. Even though you do not have any direct stake in this. Why does it bother you so much if there is a new feature implented code side (that may have been do able with scripting) that makes the life of modders easier? Are you modding a briliant campaign that is suffering because of it? Does it endanger your scripting adventures directly? Are you one of the coders being 'bugged'? Is it reducing the quality of your freespace gaming time in any way shape or form? How does feature creep even directly affect you? Are you desperately waiting for that new release because you are about to release something?

I really liked it when you coded the additions to the particle spew code. I still use that stuff today! But all your unreleased and unfinished scripts that you keep saying you've done are about as useful as having a corpse in your refrigerator. To quote mjn.mixael
I'm just saying that many of your posts start off with "I did this way back when in nukemod with scripting. It's easy peesy if you just WALL OF TEXT" Honestly, I've kind of started just skimming your posts (if I read them at all anymore) because I'm bored of reading how the community should have implemented your stuff back in '06 or whatever.
After a while its hard to take you serious anymore.

I'm saying learn enough about scripting so you know *when* to bug the coders and *when* to bug a scripter. I suspect Nuke was saying something similar. I doubt he meant everyone should learn scripting, that's just hyperbole that's been taken way too literally. I think he just meant that everyone should learn when to use scripting.
I'll leave it up to nuke to confirm or deny that then. Either way it doesn't seem like he made himself very clear on this.

The idea that everyone should learn to script is ridiculous. But the idea that everyone should make complicated structures that they then have to transfer to every single mission because they don't want to use a script (theirs or someone else's) is also ridiculous, and there's a ****load of that going on still.
The road of least resistance.
I could just copy paste a block sexp from mission file to mission file within a minute. Oooorrr I could frustrate the crap out of my self spending hours trying to grasp the basics of scripting. I don't like looking at code, my brain simply just turns off when I see it.
Either way you get the same result. So why does it matter? If it's all the same to the player ingame, then it just becomes a matter of feeling good about yourself having acomplished the same thing in a slightly more efficient way.
Urutorahappī!!

[02:42] <@Axem> spoon somethings wrong
[02:42] <@Axem> critically wrong
[02:42] <@Axem> im happy with these missions now
[02:44] <@Axem> well
[02:44] <@Axem> with 2 of them

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Scripting and drama and omg
thats kind of a thing i think scripting would handle quite well. you can essentially stick your events into a text block and simoply have lua parse it all to events when the mission starts. so you can load a large number of events with a single script eval. this would centralize the feature and facilitate event reuse. there are some issues where the format that scripting likes to read events from differes from the way they are stored in the mission file, so there would be some parsing code (lua really shines with text manipulation). this is one of those cases where i wish i was a better fredder so i could give you a more solid framework for how to accomplish that.

This would be awesome. The trick here is to be able to load the same event blocks, but alter the arguments listed in these events...which I have no idea how to do.

 

Offline Nuke

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Re: Scripting and drama and omg
thats kind of a thing i think scripting would handle quite well. you can essentially stick your events into a text block and simoply have lua parse it all to events when the mission starts. so you can load a large number of events with a single script eval. this would centralize the feature and facilitate event reuse. there are some issues where the format that scripting likes to read events from differes from the way they are stored in the mission file, so there would be some parsing code (lua really shines with text manipulation). this is one of those cases where i wish i was a better fredder so i could give you a more solid framework for how to accomplish that.

This would be awesome. The trick here is to be able to load the same event blocks, but alter the arguments listed in these events...which I have no idea how to do.

that should be somewhat easy considering the events would all be text. it would be easy to say replace all instances of '<ship1>' with galactica for example. theoretically you could then load the events with a function call containing those arguments. but if you had a long list of ship names or variables, you would end up with a script eval that just wouldn't fit. if you had a long list of variables you could just load them into an arguments table and then use a table as an argument. you could also set it up as a state machine where you set the arguments with a bunch of individual function calls and then have a call to commit the changes once you've set all the parameters. could also go with the stack approach where you have a few generic functions whos job it is to add new arguments to the stack (a lua table internally but the fredder doesnt need to know that). each time you call it it adds those arguments to a list and when you call the function to load your events block, it uses that list for its arguments. you would have another function to clear the list as well.

we will call these functions addArgs() newArgs() and loadEvents() will load a set of events from a text file (the name of which would be its only argument). when called it is assumed that the arguments stack contains all the parameters needed by the event block. there would probibly be some error checking to make sure the arguments are in the right format and there are the correct number. i could then do some things for convenience, like make them vararg, so you could add as many arguments as you can fit, and they will stack in order. i could also make newArgs take arguments so that it acts like addArgs, but clears the arguments before loading its own. this would reduce the number of script evals neccisary. so the evals would contain something like:

addArgs("someshipname", 42)
addArgs("anothershipname")
loadEvents("eventfilename")
newArgs("newshipname", 21)
addArgs("averylonglongshipname")    <-this is the longest thing you can put into a script eval iirc
addArgs("shortshipname", 69)
loadEvents("eventfilename2")

this loads 2 sets of events from 2 different files where the first event takes 3 args and the second 5. note that after the first event file is loaded the aruments are cleared with newArgs() and the new arguments are added in the same call
figure events would be loaded from text file for ease of use, which would contain another the events, and probibly some meta, containing info about how many arguments are expected and what type. this is nice because you only need to know 3 functions.

again i dont have any foreknowledge about the size of the events blocks, the diversity of data types those blocks use or anything like that. this is where a lack of fred knowhow really limits what i can do. but im tempted to figure it all out just to make spoon eat his words.
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Offline karajorma

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Re: Scripting and drama and omg
Either way you get the same result. So why does it matter? If it's all the same to the player ingame, then it just becomes a matter of feeling good about yourself having acomplished the same thing in a slightly more efficient way.

See how many coders you'll get to agree with cutting and pasting code instead of making a new function. The argument in favour of cutting and pasting is the exact same one you just made.
Karajorma's Freespace FAQ. It's almost like asking me yourself.

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