[Spoon]

Apples and oranges.

[karajorma]

Yeah, they're both fruit.

What you appear to have completely missed is that solving the problem with a script gives you a solution that is much easier to maintain. If there is a bug, you fix the script and everything is fine. With your method you have to now fix the events in several missions. And then you expose yourself to a new bug. Fixing it incorrectly in one of the missions. By the time you're editing the 10th mission, it's pretty easy to get sloppy and edit the wrong event or some other stupid bug.

That's why I asked the question about code. It's the exact same reason coders don't copy and paste.

[Iss Mneur]

That's why I asked the question about code. It's the exact same reason coders don't copy and paste.

You mean that is why they shouldn't copy and paste. How many bugs have we fixed in FSO that are the result of copy and paste?

[Spoon]

There is a very simple and fundamental difference that you seem to have missed. But I'll elaborate it for you.
There are at least a dozend people coding the engine. You want to optimize the process as much as possible so everyone is on the same page and things run smoothly. There's also a buttload of dependancies and hierarchies and what not to that come into play.
Now how often do you see a dozend of people working on a single mission? Hell, Diaspora is probably the only project out there that has so many FREDers doing so few missions. In most cases there is only going to be one person resonsible for maintaining his own stuff. Unlike coding a big engine where you aren't just maintaining the things you wrote yourself.

You also have some funky logic going on there. If you are going to be copy pasting sexp blocks then all ten missions are going to have the same bug. Fix it on one, copy paste it to the rest of the mission. Presto, you have now spend a wooping 1 minute fixing the bug over all 10 missions. It's a trivial amount of work that I'd much rather do than break my head trying to understand a script, It would just bring me a lot of frustration and I'd still be dependent on an actual scripter to add functions to it. Cause even with a basic understanding, it'll take a bigger scripterman to expand on the script.

[karajorma]

There is a very simple and fundamental difference that you seem to have missed. But I'll elaborate it for you.
There are at least a dozend people coding the engine. You want to optimize the process as much as possible so everyone is on the same page and things run smoothly. There's also a buttload of dependancies and hierarchies and what not to that come into play.

I'm talking about coding in general. If I was talking about FSO or the SCP, I'd have said so. Even as a single programmer, working on code that is pretty simple it still is a bad practice to copy and paste. The fact that you thought I was talking about FSO shows how little you've understood of where I'm coming from.

But I think I've reached the point where it's pointless to try to convince you. If you're convinced that your FREDding techniques are better than mine, feel free to continue them. If you are completely determined to continue a bad habit in spite of someone (with no vested interest either way) trying to get you to quit, and you're determined to argue with me rather than thinking that maybe I have a point, and just trying to understand it, I don't see much point in continuing.

You mean that is why they shouldn't copy and paste. How many bugs have we fixed in FSO that are the result of copy and paste?

Fair point.

As someone who spends most of his time working in Sexp.cpp, I shouldn't have needed reminding of that.

[Spoon]

If you're convinced that your FREDding techniques are better than mine, feel free to continue them.

It's not a case of 'better' (I know, shocking revelation huh?) Its whatever works for a person.

If you are completely determined to continue a bad habit in spite of someone (with no vested interest either way) trying to get you to quit, and you're determined to argue with me rather than thinking that maybe I have a point, and just trying to understand it, I don't see much point in continuing.

Your face is a bad habit (Yeah, i've given up)
You seem to be convinced that only your way is the right way. You're just being a completely arrogant douche right now.

Funny, I see no point trying to argue with someone so clearly arrogant and jerkish as you either!
You keep saying "You don't see my point!" when its actually clear its just you who doesn't get my point. But reading comprehension doesn't seem to be on your priority list when you're so vested in just trying 'to be right'.

An other fun day with Karajorma.

E: I've decided to just put you on ignore from now on. Since It's always seems to end up like this.

[karajorma]

Oh no Spoon. I get your point. I simply disagree with it.

But you clearly didn't get mine. And that's a pity really. Cause it might have saved you time and trouble in the future.

[mjn.mixael]

Karajorma: "You clearly don't get my point. You can't read. This conversation is pointless. I give up."

Spoon: "You clearly don't get my point. You can't read. This conversation is pointless. I give up."

Karajorma: *Continues conversation*

Me: "lol, saw that comin."

While I definitely agree with Spoon on this one.. you are both very clearly arguing just to be right now. +5 for Karajorma if he gets of his high horse and admits it for once.

EDIT: inb4givemeexamples

[Spoon]

I'll indulge you for this one last post. Since you just seem so intend in proving you are 'right' and that 'only the great karajorma gets it and you are WRONG'
You don't actually get it.

Different methods for different people, what seems ineffective for you isn't by default ineffective for other people.
What I fix in one hour with copy pasting in notepad, you fix in studying scripting for hours and getting adept enough in it so you can either script your own things. (But if you don't, you'll be spending a lot of time fiddling your thumbs waiting for a scripter to take a look at the script for you. Time you could have spend just fixing the problem outright with the fred skills you already know). In the end It doesn't matter which method you use, be it a script or a sexp block. It's all the same thing for the players.

Your point is pretty much just: "This method is more effective because you only have a single point to fix it in. Your method is WRONG and A BAD HABIT. You are a worse FREDer because of it. It doesn't matter if scripting isn't for you, you should use my methods because I am RIGHT in all things."

I've used copy pasting of sexp blocks very recently with the development of the soonish to be released WoD stranded. It was easy peachy and very effective, also pretty much bug free.
By your narrow minded view I would have been better off doing a deep study of scripting and doing all this with a script instead. Even though that would have just added months more of production time and detracting of me actually getting the missions done. And again, in the end it has exactly the same result. Just that the players actually get to play it months ahead in time because I did things with sexp instead of scripts. FREDers gonna FRED.
Now your next counter point would probably be "But you'll benefit from it in the future." possible.
But I can also just stick with this tried and true method that *works* and I feel comfortable with.

Have you gotten my point yet?

[Iss Mneur]

Spoon: You may want to look in the mirror. Everything you are accusing Karajorma of doing you are also doing.

Spoon, Karajorma:  I think you have both established that you disagree with each other. Fine. I think this was established last night, so take a week, think about it, and then come back to this discussion, hopefully less vested in having the last word or having the "one true style".

After thinking about it, maybe there is a solution in the "middle" ground that is better than both sides.

[Spoon]

I'm not argueing that my style is the 'one true style' or the 'only way to do things'. Just that it works just as well for a FREDer that doesn't know (or doesn't want to take the effort to learn) scripting. Karajorma however seems utterly convinced that scripting is going to be superior in every single way.
For me its just an other method of doing things, as I said many times before now, if the end result is the same who gives a kitten? I'm not the one argueing that if you don't take up scripting you'll be a lesser FREDer for it. With bad habits.

[karajorma]

Have you gotten my point yet?

You *still* haven't gotten mine? Who said *you* have to learn scripting? I flat out said that was a ridiculous idea and you quoted me!

I would have thought the same person who pointed out that it's a bad thing to try to do everything yourself would have realised I mentioned several times that the point is to know when to stand aside and let *someone else* do something if you really want to have the best version.

While I definitely agree with Spoon on this one.. you are both very clearly arguing just to be right now. +5 for Karajorma if he gets of his high horse and admits it for once.

While part of me dislikes being wrong, for the most part I'm still posting cause Spoon keeps misrepresenting my argument and I dislike having someone say I said something when I know I didn't.  He still keeps insisting that I'm arguing that everyone should learn to script. Which isn't my point at all. Funnily enough, you kept making the exact same argument and you agree with him.

Could have seen that one coming too.

[Iss Mneur]

I'm not argueing that my style is the 'one true style' or the 'only way to do things'. Just that it works just as well for a FREDer that doesn't know (or doesn't want to take the effort to learn) scripting. Karajorma however seems utterly convinced that scripting is going to be superior in every single way.
For me its just an other method of doing things, as I said many times before now, if the end result is the same who gives a kitten? I'm not the one argueing that if you don't take up scripting you'll be a lesser FREDer for it. With bad habits.

You are absolutely correct.  No one gives **** about what you do with you time.

However dismissing out of hand tools that were implemented to save time (from both a development standpoint and bug fixing standpoint) is just dumb. This is like refusing to use FRED at all.  Or a coder refusing to use an IDE.  You certainly don't have to use either. But they were both implemented to save time.

However, I am not saying everyone must know how to use every tool.  They should acknowledge that they exist and be open to using them if they are the best tool, though. And to tie this back to the original reason that this mini-war was started, anyone should not flatly dismiss solutions that were built using a tool that they don't know how to use, such as the suggestion that this subsystem options idea would be better implemented with lua rather than code.

[Spoon]

Yeah you know what, I have no ****ing clue what exactly is being argued at this point anymore.

[karajorma]

Then ask! That's what I meant when I said I got your point but I didn't think you were getting mine.

1) For someone proficient in both, scripting is much better than SEXPs for features that are meant to appear in multiple missions. I covered the main reasons (reusable easily, easier bug fixing etc).

2) For someone who isn't proficient there's nothing wrong with using SEXPs but a scripted solution would still be better. That doesn't mean you should learn to script in order to implement one. But if you can get hold of a scripted solution and can get someone to implement it for you, you should use it.

3) Everyone should learn enough about scripting to be able to decide when is a good idea to use them. This doesn't necessarily mean learning how to actually script. Just when to actually say "You know what, I should ask someone for a script for this before I try to SEXP it myself"


Now, any objection to that?

[mjn.mixael]

Nice job rewording your whole argument so that you can't possibly be wrong. #Sawthatcomintoo

[karajorma]

Nice job trying to act like you weren't completely wrong about what I meant. Saw that coming as well.

[mjn.mixael]

you are both very clearly arguing just to be right now. +5 for Karajorma if he gets of his high horse and admits it for once.

Looks like you won't get your +5. But obvious is obvious.

EDIT: inb4karamustgetthelastword

[Iss Mneur]

Nice job rewording your whole argument so that you can't possibly be wrong. #Sawthatcomintoo

Or instead of the snark. This could be a learning experience for all by you stating the side that you were arguing?  Both sides can play this game.

[karajorma]

Oh I'm totally arguing with YOU just to be right. I actually had a point with Spoon though. That's why I kept at it. If he still can't understand it after I restated it as clearly as possible rather than just continuing the argument, well, I tried. Probably not all his fault. I wasn't as clear as I could have been cause I was arguing and clarity is usually the first victim in an argument.

With you it's just about being childish and silly so I'm stopping now.