[Mongoose]

I also assumed Vishnu let the Sanctuary go as he felt Shiva had overstepped his authority/duty in that universe. Perhaps the "balance" to "be restored" was the banishing of Shiva, and/or perhaps releasing the Sanctuary's people from that universe was its own sort of balance/compensation for Shiva's overstepping?

This is the position I find myself holding, too.  At least from where I'm sitting, the Vishnans didn't upset the "Balance" by allowing the Sanctuary to pass through to the other universe, but instead restored it to the way it should have been in the first place.  By engaging the Terrans and Vasudans in the first place, the Shivans overstepped their prescribed roles, and the fate of Samuel's universe would have been the same as the Sanctuary's had the Lucifer not been destroyed.  By throwing the Shivans out of the triumvirate, the Vishnans were apparently declaring the Shivans' previous acts as invalid.  In that context, letting the Sanctuary travel back to GTVA space would be a small measure of recompense for the injustices levied against humanity in that universe.

And regarding the multiverse bit, are you suggesting that all of those seemingly-innocuous FTL subspace jumps finally caught up with poor Samuel?

[-Norbert-]

I wouldn't say the Shivans overstepped their bound with their first attack. After all there was the whole Terran-Vasudan war going on for decades. Without the Shivan intervention the most likely outcome would have been the eradication of one species and all that over a stupid error in translation....

The second Shivan incursion though is another matter. The NTF rebellion (apart from being an internal matter) was something the GTVA was capable of handling themselfs, even though they needed a long time for it. After all they were able to crush the rebels even while they were also busy exploring the nebula and battling the Shivans on a second front.

you could bring in some of Vishnu's thematic imagery for the Vishnans. Dark blue / stormcloud coloring and patterns, conch, wheel, and lotus shapes could make some truly interesting ships. The current line just doesn't fit the Vishnu/angelic theme as well as the shivan ships fit the Shiva/demonic theme.

Darius didn't make the Ancient/Vishnan models, he just re-used them. As far as I gathered he didn't know how to model back then (though he learned it since then - there was some comment about one of his ships being in WiH if I remember correctly, though I don't know anything more).

Upon reflection, back-engineering some of the later War in Heaven prose into Age of Aquarius and expanding the dialogue upon arrival in Sol might have improved the final mission.

Since you didn't play through the original release till the end you wouldn't know it, but they did that. The line about the GTVA believing the UEF to be "religious pacifists incapable of selfdefence" or somesuch was only addad with the directors cut. Also Renjians lines were a bit extended ("Desperata Ferro" for one thing wasn't in the original).
In the original Admiral Bei just says that the GTVA send them as an invasion force, but never goes into the reasons why command decided that.

Also there are very good reason why not all of the 14th battlegroup defect (apart form beliefing command point of view. Loyality being one. They all swore an oath to serve the GTVA and it's principles and obey their superious. That's the tricky part. If you swear two things in the same oath, and they come into conflict with each other, which one will you choose to follow?
Another would be, not wanting to fight against your comrades.
While going over to the UEF might seem like the right thing morally, it also means you will have to fight with your former comrades sooner or later. Against people who might beliefe as much as yourself that they do the right thing for the good of Humanity.
It's easy to blast some cruel, faceless enemy beyond Human understanding. It's quite another thing to blast Human beings. Even worse if they are people you know. And even worse, to know that, if not for a twist of fate (or Vishnan intervention) you wouldn't fight against but alongside that pilot you just shoot at.

So it's not really surprising that members of the 14th battlegroup would just do nothing and risk being court martialed rather than defecting.

[Snail]

One of the things I'd find really interesting is to see whether people would've had any problem whatsoever firing on the Renjian if they hadn't played the whole campaign.

[Colonol Dekker]

I'll be honest, i know we all originated on that Blue Pearl of a planet, but it would depend onwhether i had family there during the Node collapse. IF my family for instance are all Capellan or Gamma DRaconian at that time... I'd consider myself more GTVA than SOL. 


If however, i was decended from a Pilot who lost all family to the collapse, a Pilot who since married and yadda yadda yadda....  I'd think of myself as out of place.. Lost Generation and all that.

[Droid803]

One of the things I'd find really interesting is to see whether people would've had any problem whatsoever firing on the Renjian if they hadn't played the whole campaign.

Most people wouldn't, I'd think.
I don't see people hesitating to shoot the EA in INFR1, which, if the whole alternate dimension thing didn't happen, would be a pretty similar scenario. You'd just follow your orders cause you would have been briefed about it beforehand.

[Scotty]

Playing through again, I'm struck by a single random thought:

Did/Will the GTVA explore the Knossos found before Forced Entry?

[Colonol Dekker]

Does it exist in our universe at all?

[NGTM-1R]

One of the things I'd find really interesting is to see whether people would've had any problem whatsoever firing on the Renjian if they hadn't played the whole campaign.

If we hadn't had the whole campaign, the Renjian would never have been fired upon. That wasn't The Plan^TM, remember?

Instead Command got too attached to its timetable and not enough to reality. People would have probably been freaking about the original plan too (threatening orbital bombardment of Earth is significantly more likely to provoke muntinous behavior than just shooting up the Renjian, IMO), but any GTVA defector's resistance to it would have been meaningless in the plan's context. By the time the UEF could have assimilated any information from defecting forces, had the original plan been followed, the decision would have already been reached.

[Mongoose]

Does it exist in our universe at all?

That's a really good question, actually.  You'd think so, since the main branching-off point between the two universes seems to be the success/failure of the mission to destroy the Lucifer.  I'd expect that anything that occurred before then would be the same, including the Knossos.

[-Norbert-]

Unless the Shivans or Vishnans put it there.
We only know that the Shivans didn't invent the Knossos portals, but maybe they can build them, but they copy them so perfectly that they look like the ancients build them.
Or more likely the Vishnans put it there to allow the Temeraire and company a way to escape the Shivans and make contact with the closest Vishnan battlegroup.

But if it exists in the main FS2 universe, is it active? And what's hidden behind it? Maybe BP3?

[Snail]

One of the things I'd find really interesting is to see whether people would've had any problem whatsoever firing on the Renjian if they hadn't played the whole campaign.

If we hadn't had the whole campaign, the Renjian would never have been fired upon. That wasn't The Plan^TM, remember?

Instead Command got too attached to its timetable and not enough to reality. People would have probably been freaking about the original plan too (threatening orbital bombardment of Earth is significantly more likely to provoke muntinous behavior than just shooting up the Renjian, IMO), but any GTVA defector's resistance to it would have been meaningless in the plan's context. By the time the UEF could have assimilated any information from defecting forces, had the original plan been followed, the decision would have already been reached.

Yeah, I know. I've read the dossier. Many times.

But I was just thinking how the psychological aspect of actual people playing a video game corresponds to the in-universe characters.

[manwiththemachinegun]

True, true. I mean what with the hints of quantum pulse communication between Space Family Bei and the preservers it certainly seems that they could have given themselves that title, but I'm getting the feeling that the long ubership dialogue was Bei-exclusive. Having Vishnu call Shiva, Shiva brings that otherwise external name internal to the triumvirate and seems iffy to me.

But seriously, how come the Vishnans let the Sanctuary leave? It clearly belongs in its own universe and is crewed by folks who have no business being alive in FS1/FS2 verse. Can Shiva file a complaint or something? "Dear Brahma, your preserver droids took pity on some guy and let him take a copy of his dead wife from this universe back to his universe. Love, the shivans PS we miss you"?

Anyhow. I guess I didn't really properly wrap up that extra long ramble: Guys, loved the hell out of BP and I can't wait for more. Been spreading the word around about it and showing it off as best as I can. Here's hoping for a super splendiferous AoA Special Edition sometime down the road with a few more tweaks in addition to War in Heaven and BP3: Son of Blue Planet.

To answer one of your other comments. Where is it shown the Vishnans are technologically 'superior' to the Shivans? The Lucifer rapes the Arbiters quickly, Shivan fighters are more than capable of destroying fighters enmass, and just one Sathanas obliterated the entire Vishnan armada you were a part of by disrupting the Keeper's mental link. That doesn't scream LOL PLOT HAX SPECISE to me.

[Scotty]

Shivan fighters are more than capable of destroying fighters enmass

I think we must be playing different campaigns, from this comment.  Vishnan fighters absolutely rape Shivan fighters.

[NGTM-1R]

But I was just thinking how the psychological aspect of actual people playing a video game corresponds to the in-universe characters.

My point still applies.

A lot more players would go "wtf no" I think over the original plan being carried out then the screwup version that actually happened.

[General Battuta]

That's probably true, but the pilots of the 14th likely wouldn't have blinked.

[Dark Hunter]

To answer one of your other comments. Where is it shown the Vishnans are technologically 'superior' to the Shivans? The Lucifer rapes the Arbiters quickly, Shivan fighters are more than capable of destroying fighters enmass, and just one Sathanas obliterated the entire Vishnan armada you were a part of by disrupting the Keeper's mental link. That doesn't scream LOL PLOT HAX SPECISE to me.

That, I think, is the Vishnans' one massive weakness: they are entirely dependent on their Keepers. Kill a Keeper and an entire Vishnan fleet goes dead. The Shivans excel at blowing up capital ships, and applying that talent to Vishnan Keepers levels the playing field quite a bit.

I'm curious, since we never actually saw this happen in BP: how does a single Keeper measure up to a single Sathanas? As in: both of them facing each other, so as to make full use of their forward weapons. Are they evenly matched or is one demonstrably more powerful?

[-Norbert-]

That the Shivan fighters are inferiour doesn't mean they have worse technology. The Shivans always put a lot of emphacis on cruisers and capital ships supported by massive numbers of comparetively weak fighters.
To say Shivans out-tech Vishnans is like saying the UEF has better tech than the GTVA, just because they have better fighters.

[General Battuta]

To answer one of your other comments. Where is it shown the Vishnans are technologically 'superior' to the Shivans? The Lucifer rapes the Arbiters quickly, Shivan fighters are more than capable of destroying fighters enmass, and just one Sathanas obliterated the entire Vishnan armada you were a part of by disrupting the Keeper's mental link. That doesn't scream LOL PLOT HAX SPECISE to me.

That, I think, is the Vishnans' one massive weakness: they are entirely dependent on their Keepers. Kill a Keeper and an entire Vishnan fleet goes dead. The Shivans excel at blowing up capital ships, and applying that talent to Vishnan Keepers levels the playing field quite a bit.

I'm curious, since we never actually saw this happen in BP: how does a single Keeper measure up to a single Sathanas? As in: both of them facing each other, so as to make full use of their forward weapons. Are they evenly matched or is one demonstrably more powerful?

If both are in primary beam range, the Sath will probably wipe the floor with the Keeper. The Keeper's main beam may outrange the BFReds on the Sath, though.

[NGTM-1R]

That's probably true, but the pilots of the 14th likely wouldn't have blinked.

The argument seems to basically be "because this is normal and they were briefed" but the prose implies that only key command staff was actually briefed on the plan and the campaign certainly presents it as the pilots being unbriefed. Threatening orbital bombardment is decidedly not normal behavior for a GTVA battlegroup, and considering this Earth we're talking about, I still believe reaction would be as bad or worse below the rank of Captain. That includes all flight ranks.

[General Battuta]

Threatening orbital bombardment is decidedly not normal behavior for a GTVA battlegroup

This wasn't a normal GTVA battlegroup. They were hand-picked for the task, probably in  part due to high Milgram compliance ratings.

Faced with that kind of situation they would have fallen back on their training and obeyed orders. These people were professionals.

They weren't briefed, but whoever made the decision not to brief them did so knowing that it would either not impact their performance or it was irrelevant.