[Mobius]

Well then, FSU should cooperate. They don't even have to fix the stuff themselves...

I hope they would accept.

Don't be an ass.

The FSU team has been discussing your requests and working to fix things. I've seen it on IRC.

Furthermore, the reason you're getting vague replies about morals and other stuff is because, while people agree with you about many of these changes (myself included!), you're being such a jerk that I don't want to agree with you.

As someone on IRC said, you have a point, but you're delivering it all wrong.

In fact, I've never seen you admit you're wrong. You've clearly decided the newer skybox is better, but you never apologized to Herra for the whole kerfuffle. It would mean a lot to him if you did.

Calm down. You're getting upset about things like the capitalization of a single letter. You'd get a lot more done in this community if you'd just chill out instead of acting like a prima donna.

Same thing for you. You're not needed here.

You post as if there's a flame war going on - well, it isn't true. The situation is calm, it's your post that almost turned it into a flame spree. I'm waiting for the FSU team's reply to my request, after which everything will be fine.

Had you read my posts you would have understood that the content of my complaints goes well beyond the "c ---> C" matter. Don't make me look like a nitpick maniac.

[Herra Tohtori]

Herra Tohtori: That's a good example of the typical and vague post FSU team members usually come out with when it comes to complaints. The fact that the number of people complaining about your changes is limited doesn't mean that you're right.

Neither does it mean that you are right. I'm approaching this on a case by case basis, so I look at one issue at a time and comment on that if I have some sort of opinion on it and if it's on my turf to change.

You have complained about the starfield, I have responded regarding that because I made it and it's my responsibility as such. You have complained about the ship prefixes, which I had nothing to do with and don't really care too much either way so I'm leaving it for Zacam to comment on and make changes if it comes to that.

The thing is, I doubt he's willing to give you any commentary on the issue because of how you present yourself...

You have no way to prove that "Sc" is a correct designation, do you understand? It's "SC", period. Are you going to correct the error or not? How many members should be complaining about this issue to attract your attention?

Again on case-by-case basis I happen to agree that it should be SC since it's that in original (IIRC), but I'll leave it for Zacam to change it or comment why it is Sc at the moment. It could be as simple as a typo, but since we haven't gotten to finishing the patch yet (will likely wait till the official 3.6.10 build is out if I've gotten the right impression), it's not changed in the MediaVP's yet. In fact I haven't checked the SVN in quite a bit so it might be changed already. But as I don't know, I'll leave it for Zacam to comment if he wants to.

It's quite annoying to learn that you consider complaints valid only if there number of members behind them is noticeable. That's one of the most stupid excuses I've ever read, because (as I stated above) some of your changes are absolutely wrong. There's no need to discuss them.

Matters of artistic preference, mind you. Like the starfield. Don't bunch artistic and logical issues into one and the same. The former is dependant on how many people like the changes. The latter is not. If someone points out an obvious logical error (misspelling or the like) they'll be fixed even if 99.9% of users don't say anything of them. The question when and how they are fixed is a different matter.

Also, it would be logical to cooperate with the FSCRP.

What you're saying is that it would be logical to take you on as a FSU team member and let you have your way with things you disagree with.

Which is hardly the case, because to be honest you give an impression of a busybody trying to stick your fingers in everything just because your opinion is the right one and you want to propagate it as far as you can.

Arrogant behaviour on FSU's part or not, you're hardly free of that yourself. Try and read your posts from an outsider's point of view and you might be surprised.


Aside from that, FreeSpace Campaign Restoration Project has a totally different profile than the FreeSpace Upgrade. It's a different project with different goals and different priorities, so I wouldn't really mix them as such. Besides, no one is preventing you from making a FS2 Puritan Edition Mod that changes the things you don't like.

General Battuta: I will no longer complain about the new starfield map (or, at least, in a formal and direct way). I'm quite sick of the replies I got, I'm getting and I will surely get.

Well, I'm quite sick of hearing you complain about it without clearly saying what exactly is wrong with it in your opinion. You have said it doesn't have enough stars, even though the amount of stars is actually about the same as in the Beta mediaVP version. You have said the stars aren't prominent enough, although they are much brighter in the new one as opposed to the older one. You have said that in reality the stars are brighter than that, yet you want a version with dim and blurry stars in it (if my interpretation is correct, but as you refuse to answer the pepsi test, I can't be totally sure).

I really don't know what it is you don't like in the starfield and you refuse to give straight answers - like telling which of the starfields in that comparision shot you prefer. Thus far you have not given a straight answer one way or another. Maybe clicking the link is too much trouble, so here's the image directly.

FRED changes are another matter. There are errors of obvious relevance so I'm asking the FSU to cooperate with the FSCRP when it comes to changes of that kind. People are free to say that the new starfield is so much better, but I don't tolerate people doing the same when discussing FRED changes. Among the changes, some are to be considered errors ("Sc" designation, prefixes in ship names) while others are to be considered unnecessary changes (replacement of the Carthage in "A Lion at the Door").

On SC designation issue I agree with you. On the matter of using prefixes in ship names, there are several reasons for doing it.

First, although the voice acting isn't consistent, in most of the briefings the ship prefixes are used with the names.
First and a half, using the ship prefixes promotes internal consistency since in most cases the voice acting uses the prefixes.
Secondly, you can directly see the ship type on the Escort list.
Third, as an opinion, it makes sense to me to have my ship's interface showing me the prefix as well as the name.

Regarding FREDding changes, I have no comments as I have not done anything with FRED. But I suspect there has been a reason behind the changes such as described, even though you might think it's unnecessary. Like said, though, I'll leave it for the responsible party to explain and/or change. My limited experience in FSU team is that things are very rarely done without a reason behind the change, even if I don't know it.


Also, I have to agree with General Battuta - why so serious?

[General Battuta]

You really need to answer the starfield question, Mobius. You made a big deal out of it, now wrap it up. Which one do you prefer?

[blowfish]

You really need to answer the starfield question, Mobius. You made a big deal out of it, now wrap it up. Which one do you prefer?

And why.

[Hades]

[snip]

Same thing for you. You're not needed here.

Look, Mobius, General Battuta has as much of a right to post here as you do, so don't rudely tell him "You're not needed here" when he's trying to help you.

And please, tell us which starfield you prefer and why you prefer it.

[Jeff Vader]

Mobius: if your next post doesn't give a straight and thorough answer on why you dislike Herra Tohtori's starfield, I will lock this thread. I, for one, am sick of you complaining for the sake of complaining. Everyone has the right to have opinions on all matters, but if you dislike the starfield and want it changed, at least tell us why.

Protip: "meh" is not descriptive.

[karajorma]

Same thing for you. You're not needed here.

Battuta is a Global Moderator in case you hadn't noticed. It is his job to deal with the kind of nonsense that is going on in this thread.

[M87]

@Mobius

I was actually speaking to Kolgena. You may not notice it from your own point of view, but your attitude and diction is not helping your cause. The administrators have been patient with you so far despite your comments, so don't push it. Keep it civilized.

@castor

Glad you like the new lighting. Actually, I haven't made any new stars for the unknown binary system in that mission, so I think the retail blue stars are being used there. I'm planning on replacing those stars one of these days. I just wanted to make sure you and everyone else who mentioned that the stars looked monochromatic were seeing the same stars that I'm seeing.

[Sandwich]

*exudes mandatory calming, civilizing, and get-along-ing influence on everyone in this thread*

Seriously, guys. We're all on the same side. Lighten up, be civil, and play nicely. I'd be much obliged...

[Zacam]

Among the changes, some are to be considered errors ("Sc" designation, prefixes in ship names) while others are to be considered unnecessary changes (replacement of the Carthage in "A Lion at the Door").

The GTD Carthage, as an Orion Class Warship, is still present in the mission in question. And while _most_ of the dialogues in that mission simply refer to it as "Carthage", it refers to itself as follows:

$Name: Status

$Team: -1
$MessageNew:  XSTR("This is the GTD Carthage. What's your status, pilots?", 715)
$end_multi_text
+Persona: Large Ship
+AVI Name: Head-CM5
+Wave Name: SM104_CA_01.wav

That reason, as well as the fact that  in missions, the number of ships that have the Class prefix in their name OUTNUMBERED those that did not, was part of why I went forward with an effort (well meaning, and well meant) of introducing some consistency.. And then there are the Nameplates, which ALSO boldly proclaim the ship Class designation. Is it possibly overkill? Yeah, I can see it being a little over. And if people want to vote the consistency wheel to go the other direction and I completely remove them, fine. But frankly, aesthetically and personally, it drove me NUTS to have a prefix in one mission, and then another mission with the same ship NOT. Only to have it again later.

The small case 'c', as has been acknowledged by anyone and everyone, is indeed a mistake. But a simple PM to anyone (_ESPECIALLY_ me) as soon as you first noticed it? Would have been _PRICELESS_. Instead, I find out about it NOW, because like most people, things randomly and frequently can slip my mind or my notice.

And I don't mind finding out about it now. I would have liked earlier. What I don't like is HOW I am finding it out in a manner that makes it seem like the entire integrity and existence of the FSU is being called in to question because of a simple. ****ing. mistake.

One which, incidentally, has already been fixed as soon as I commit it to our svn.

As an FSU member, I have not noticed or received any messages, public or private, in regards to any requests to the FSU as a group or as individuals, wherein any request for assistance or co-operation was made on the behalf of the FSCRP. And the FSCRP is not the only group to have experienced adverse side effects from relying on the previous BETA 3.6.10 release and having it break when we posted a 3.6.10 refresh 12/08/08.

We worked rather quickly and as diligently as we could to address, understand and/or resolve anything that was brought to our attention.

But you, Mobius, as of this moment, could frankly almost piss me off more than any body else here has ever managed to do. And that would be unfortunate. Because as it has been pointed out, it is not that you are wrong. What is wrong is how you (to my perception) point out that you know for an utter certainty that you are right and no other consideration be needed or given, and you go out of your way, tighter than a bull dogs jaws, to make sure that anybody who hasn't already heard KNOWS about it.

I've held off replying directly, because I did not want to just let my fingers fly out a post that would get nowhere. So I took since this thread started, reading every post. Then I left it alone, put it out of my mind, and then came back and did it again. And Every. Single. Time. I got the exact. Same. Impression.

I don't _care_ if you are right or wrong. I don't _care_ if you are in a minority position or a figure of authority. If you are posting on this board and playing this game and you even think you spot something done wrong, instead of "You got this wrong. It's supposed to be (insert here whatever)", try instead "I noticed this, but I don't remember it being that way, did something change, or was it not noticed?"

And as for my personal co-operation: Mobius, I will respect any piece of factual information that you supply. Your personal opinion is your own and your welcome to it.

To everyone else: SHUT THE HELL UP ABOUT THE GORAM SKYBOX ALREADY. Please. Thank You.

[karajorma]

like most people, things randomly and frequently can slip my mind or my notice.

Maybe you should get yourselves a public or private FSUP project on HLP Mantis then. I'd certainly love to see people making more use of it.

[Black Wolf]

For what it's worth, I've always used GTSc, not to stand for Science Cruiser but to distinguish the Faustus from things like the GTS Centaur and GTS Hygeia, in much the same way as the GTCv Deimos is distinct from the GTC Aeolus. Note that he Hippo is not the GTMF Hippocrates, despite being clearly called a medical frigate on at least one occasion.

All that to one side though, it is much ado about a shift key.

[Dilmah G]

Exactly, the game still works doesn't it?

[Rhymes]

I'd like to put in my $0.02

I personally think that the issue of GTSc vs. GTSC is pointless. It is an issue about capitalization that's getting far more attention than it deserves.  Besided, SC works as Science Cruiser, but Sc also makes sense as Science cruiser.  It really doesn't matter.

About the starfield in the picture: I like the second one better, personally.  It feels brighter, and more vibrant.  The star colors seem a little exaggerated compared to their real-life counterparts, but as everybody knows, FreeSpace =/= Reality.

Mobius: You may be making some valid points, but the way you go about doing it is disproportional to the importance of the issue.  Think about this, you have made a huge issue over a ****ing prefix.  That's a little ridiculous, even for HLP.  You have also made baseless, and even inflammatory accusations against people who do not deserve it. 

And a little message for everyone: Calm.  The ****. Down.

Enjoy the pair of pennies, everyone! 

[Mobius]

I'm posting this because General Battuta told me to via PM. Please note that I haven't read the posts that preceed this one because... [this part of the post is missing]

I prefer the old starfield map because a) it's compatible with the additional Sol map (they have to work in tandem) and b) the stars are much more prominent. The new map has more variety in terms of colors, however, and I appreciate that.

Bye.

[Rhymes]

   How are the stars in the old one more prominent?  They're duller, if anything.  Please explain.

[General Battuta]

I'm posting this because General Battuta told me to via PM. Please note that I haven't read the posts that preceed this one because... [this part of the post is missing]

I prefer the old starfield map because a) it's compatible with the additional Sol map (they have to work in tandem) and b) the stars are much more prominent. The new map has more variety in terms of colors, however, and I appreciate that.

Bye.

Mobius, I appreciate the post, but we asked you to pick one of the two images posted above. Not 'old one' or 'new one.'

[Mobius]

Check your PMs, Battuta.

[General Battuta]

Understood.

One of these two images.

I'll lock the thread if anyone flames you once you answer.

[Rodo]

something I noticed playing again the main FS2 campaign, in "the mystery of the trinity" the Trinity is not dissabled, and in "into the maelstrom" the GTCV Parapet is called the GTC Parapet, and it seems to be jumping in at the wrong time, I've checked the retail file and I just got dizzy about that.. I don't understand why they made it jump in that way with the trigger II but anyways.. the GTC thing might need to be changed though.