[Commander Zane]

Okay, I can't tell anymore what's supposed to be what, the two shockwave types have been uploaded, but there's no screenshots of them unless the one that's been displayed about ten times already is supposed to be one of them, I'd like some comparison shots.

[pecenipicek]

its the second time round that it has happened. for the sake of easier implementation however, i'd vote for the 2D as default and 3D as an additional vp. oh no, imagines the 5-ish to 20-ish megabytes more to download... as a separate VP. oh noez, teh humanity.

[chief1983]

The poll isn't clear about the fact that for people who want the 2d ones, they'll have to jump through hoops to get them if the 3d ones are the defaults.  Honestly is it that difficult to put the 3d shockwaves in a separate file?  I know you guys are trying to reduce file count and I commend that, but this really should be able to make everyone happy, shouldn't it?

[Zacam]

DaBrain: Seriously, if people had VP files completed and ready to run from the first post of this thread so that they knew more of what they were selecting, then I could be down with the poll being the final decision. But there wasn't and I am not.

And as there have been people requesting 2D, it actually matters more to me if they happen to be a minority. Which is why, IMO, 3D should be a separate _OPTIONAL_ download that any one can use IF THEY CHOOSE, rather than being something that everybody is stuck with that will require a lot of work to replace in the event it is not what they want. So seriously, can we stop trying to whip each other about and make the sensible solution that can accommodate ANY preference with nothing more than the presence (or not) of a single small VP?

[DaBrain]

Look, Zacam, we wanted to force as few users as possible to mess around with optional VPs. By using the shockwaves, less people want, we do the opposite.

You can not make a decision like that on your own, especially not now after we left the decision to the users.

[Herra Tohtori]

That may well be, but the fact remains that if there's a shockwave.pof anywhere on the default VP's it will be IMPOSSIBLE to use 2D shockwaves with the default VP's.

That means that anyone wanting to use 2D shockwaves will be out of the support range because they will be forced to modify the default mediaVP's. Or, in other words, if we include the 3D shockwaves into the default set of  VP's, we effectively drop the 2D shockwave support altogether, leaving it to individual users to go through a relatively complicated procedure of opening the VP where the shockwave is (effects IIRC), remove the POF file, and overwrite the default mediaVP.

This is a fairly complicated procedure for anyone who doesn't already know how it's done, and it will effectively cause either or both of the following:

a. cause the emergence of an alternative VP set where there is no shockwave.pof, which will proceed to cause mix-ups in support topics
b. alienate everyone who prefers 2D shockwaves and can't edit the VP files themselves (and a lot of threads requesting help regarding rudimentary VP editing).


In terms of pros and cons...


3D Shockwaves in default VP:

+for those who can accept the 3D shockwaves, a minor advantage in amount of VP's to deal with
- for anyone else, a major disadvantage in the procedure of changing to 2D shockwaves

2D shockwaves in default VP's:

- for those who want the 3D shockwaves, a minor disadvantage in amount of VP's to deal with
+for anyone else, a major advantage of not having to EDIT any default, FSU-provided VP files.


Note that 3D shockwaves as default provide a minor advantage and major disadvantage, while the 2D shockwaves as default prived a major advantage and minor disadvantage.

Additionally, I would not necessarily hold the voting result of this poll as the highest authority, seeing how there's already been multiple mix-ups with people not effectively knowing which are supposed to be 2D and which 3D effect. As much as I adore democracy, people who are not familiar with the advantages and disadvantages of both options don't really have the pre-requisites of making an educated choice in this kind of issues. After all, 3D shockwave sounds much more advanced than 2D shockwave, so it should be an improvement, right? Except that it isn't, in many ways - the angles issue being the first and foremost, and the drastic change from retail effect style being another. I would even go as far as calling it a mod as opposed to an upgrade, but that's just me. I do not suggest dropping it from the VP's altogether, but it seems to me that using that as default will cause far greater problems than using 2D shockwaves as default.


My stance in this is the following: There are people who want 3D shockwaves (2/3rds based on this questionable poll) and there are people who want 2D shockwaves (1/3rd, a rather significant minority even based on this poll).If we drop either of those options from the supported solutions, we will alienate one group. Ergo, we should provide official support for both. This is only possible at the moment by using the 2D shockwave as the default option, and offering the 3D shockwave(s) as an option.

Another way is, of course, not to include any shockwave in the default VP's and offer both 2D and 3D shockwaves as a selective download, but that's even more complicated than just using the 2D as default, so I'd rather not see that happening.


Finally, it's very good to take simplicity of use into consideration, but sacrificing customizability for it is the wrong way to do it and will cause far greater problems in my opinion than having to answer a few support questions occasionally - and I don't think add-on shockwaves would be a problem with clear instructions. Definitely they wouldn't produce as much problems as that debackle with effect alpha channels fixed with those 710-VP's.


...and, finally, a remainder that this conversation would not be in any way necessary if we had a command line option to enable 3D shockwaves, which would be the optimal solution for both devs and users - users could select either option based on their preference with much ease, while devs could spare themselves the trouble of maintaining support for more VP files.

[Rodo]

Ill bump in the conversation dont kill me XD:

In order to get a more user-friendly vps one of both will have to be default, so far the 3d are winning so let the people have 3d, If by some reason anyone might want to have a 2d then a separated file should be uploaded for those players, then they can follow a very complete FAQ on how to install them, I know this might be annoying (I miself want to try the 2d also so I think I'll be facing this problem sooner or later) but unless a completely automated option is resolved, then 3d should stay as default.

Something else, from what I've seen most of players who have asked for 2d are well experienced on FS universe so I presume that following a complex FAQ would not represent an issue for them, apart from the extra work... but I think you already know that something in FS will have to be changed eventually.

[pecenipicek]

lets explain this simply for the new fellas.

The way the 3D Shockwaves are implemented is that they override the 2D and insert the shockwave.pof and related effects instead of the original 2D effect.

If the 3D shockwaves are inside a VP, its impossible to replace them any other way than by modifying the VP file containing it.
(it is something that i as a somewhat senior member of hlp and a long time modder dont feel comfortable doing...)

If the 2D were by default inside, the 3D one could be just added by another VP containing only data related to the 3D shockwave.

3D's are winning for the same reason as the first time round. People dont really know the exact difference, and back then nobody improved the original 2D shockwave so people went "Oooh, shiny!!!!11".


i'd be all for the 3D shockwave if it behaved much like the 2D effect, however it does not. so i am not.


if the FSU is so against modifying some retail based things, for example, not fixing the colossus pivot since it would "break" the mission when it blows up and it would require fixing of all missions where it appears. that just smells of lazyness, whereas when **** like this 3D shockwave gets through since it "adds to the atmosphere of things and doesnt break retail missions".

the 3D shockwave is one of the most... how to say... un-freespacey things that got in thanks to people going ooh shiny.

if the effect that the 3D shockwave made emulated the retail shockwave effect, there wouldnt be much problem. but alas, there is, since the 3D shockwave basically looks like a lazy, fake version of the retail effect. i've owned FS2 since it came out in 1999. and i fondly remember the retail effect. the 3D one screams hate at me.

and yet, i'm stuck with it since i dont feel confident enough to go into the VP's and rip it out.



(errrm, sorry if this posts sounds as a mish-mash, i just have a lot of stuff going around now so confusion ensues often inside me head)

[Vasudan Admiral]

if the FSU is so against modifying some retail based things, for example, not fixing the colossus pivot since it would "break" the mission when it blows up and it would require fixing of all missions where it appears. that just smells of lazyness

Let me just single this point out and remind you that this issue is trivial, and the fix and associated testing is not. The colossus barely even turns in the main campaign! Modifying it now would break or hamper every mission (retail campaign or not) that involves the squirt gun. Call that lazy if you will, but keep in mind that you're talking about a little team here that has put many months of work into this next release, created tons of new content besides the stuff that's already been seen and most importantly; tested and bugfixed the lot of it. It's certainly not my definition of 'lazy'.


As for the shockwave issue, I really don't see what the fuss is about - placing the 2d one in the effects VP and the 3d one as an optional add-on VP is simply the only way we can offer both options to players, so I don't see any reason to leave those who like 2d shockwaves better completely out in the cold to save those who like 3d shockwaves an extra one or two clicks and some download.

(Incidentally, my stance on the shockwave preference thing is that all of them except the retail animation look awesome in their own ways. I don't have a favourite.)

[Spicious]

Why is this poll even here?
The action already seems to have been decided.

I do like the "voters are too stupid" ploy though. Those are always fun.

Are there any pictures of the particular shockwaves that would be included?

[james777]

2d

[Vasudan Admiral]

Why is this poll even here?
The action already seems to have been decided.

AFAIK it was made before we realised that using 3d as default would permanently override the very ability to have 2d at all.

As for screenies, HT is working on that right now.

[Topgun]

what the coders should do is make the shockwave type on a per-ship/per-weapon basis. thay way those who wan't it in 3d just need to download 2 tbm's.

[Wanderer]

Its already possible.. But thing is i dont know how well MP likes the players having different tables.. Probably claims one party or another to be using haxored tables

[Herra Tohtori]

Well, this took a bit of time... anyway, here are comparision shots and video clips of the different shockwave types.

3D Shockwave, best case scenario (two shots at different phases) [Video]:





3D Shockwave, worst case scenario - you'll see this one often with bombs, either firing or chasing them [Video]:



EDIT: Note that this picture and clip has two bombs exploding at the same time right next to each other, so if you wonder about the strange duality that's the cause. This is a common occurrence in FS2 though, since firing two missiles at the same time is rather popular bombing tactics...

2D shockwave, looks always relatively the same. The current effect has a bit too much compression artefacts for my delicate eyes, so preferably I would like the original files for this effect, but this one is not too bad either... [Video]




EDIT: Forgot to say - the clips also show Wanderer's Flashy Deaths script in effect. Forgot to disable that, but at least you still see the shockwave types and their basic differences. The script might or might not be in the VP's, we'll see.

[General Battuta]

Oh, I am very glad the 2D shock is default. Let's stick with that, please!

[Romanmolf]

2D normal, 3D optional. I got it at last, didn't I?


Now, your 2D shockwave is fantastic. Congratulations! However, the 3D has higher quality. I was wondering if it could be ''converted'' to 2D. I suppose it can't.

[Herra Tohtori]

2D normal, 3D optional. I got it at last, didn't I?

That's the option I would like best (along with some others on the FSU team). There are other options still on the table, as this thread should show. DaBrain's argument about keeping things simple does have it's merits also.

Now, your 2D shockwave is fantastic. Congratulations! However, the 3D has higher quality. I was wondering if it could be ''converted'' to 2D. I suppose it can't.

It isn't "my" 2D shockwave effect. In fact I don't even know who made it, but I would love to learn that so we could ask for the uncompressed original files for that effect, and possibly in higher resolution as well.

The 3D effect does have better texture quality at this moment, but that's partially because it uses one quarter of the texture and tiles it onto the model four times to form a circle, which means it can utilize twice as good resolution at same memory consumption as the 2D effect (at the price of being tiled so if you're picky you can notice some repetition on the quarters...).

[chief1983]

Spicious, it's not even that the people who voted are 'stupid', misinformed perhaps, but that the poll question didn't even cover the repercussions of what it meant.  It says nothing about the fact that it's orders of magnitude more difficult to switch to one from the other, and that problem wasn't really discussed until after quite a bit of voting.  I didn't even know the issue fully when I voted, but I did vote for 2d anyway.  Even if the 3d shock wave is the 'default', I still think it should be a separate file so it can be removed easily.  With Turey's installer, it could easily be set up as a check box I think, under the category of MediaVPs.  On the forum post, the files are usually linked separately anyway, and not as one big batch download, so you'll still have to manually download and install every file.  So why is there still so much discussion on something that seems like it can be dealt with so trivially?

[Topgun]

I don't see the big deal, if it's that hard to make the 3dshockwave the default then make the default 2d like what chief said.